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On April 23 2013 21:19 Kabras wrote:
i don't like the mkb at all, the comparison to qop and storm spirit to justify this item is silly. i'm not sure if her attack animation is worse than storm's (it's worse than qop's for sure), but the projectile speed is a joke. don't buy right click items for krobelus, even in very late game they're just not worth it. her swarm and ult are enough damage to make sure she can't be ignored. ur much better off stacking on armor and hp than trying to improve a terrible right click. skadi's mediocre at best for the same reason, the agility is pretty much wasted and the orb effect isn't as good as it is on other heroes + you won't get lifesteal on her so you can't take advantage of ranged skadi+lifesteal effect stack either. if you absolutely have enough hp and armor, just get some utility like a hex and bkb.
I never would get Skadi or MKB on her either...
You want Damage? Go AC.
You want Damage and are allready damn Tanky? Go Radiance.
You like Ghosts? Go Refresher
And just to finally answer this:
April 20 2013 16:02 Viruuus wrote: Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 00:44 Velr wrote:just tryed it... It's fun but I rather stay "more tanky". I play mostly pure pubs and while i see why this is strong, it also completly shuts down your ability to snowball  This guides build is one of the tankiest I can imagine for Krob. Also you snowball super hard if you get the items quick. If you can get to the heart or skadi in a reasonable time.. there is no harder snowball for Krob..
Strongest Snowball is this:
Start with Boots/1 Healing Salve/1 Branche (puts you at exactly 0 Gold) --> Don't do this if you expect a scary matchup (or are drunk, really, don't...  ).
Rush Arcaines ---> You should have them by lvl 5/6 normally --> Spam your opponent out of lane (if you didn't allready which you should have if he isn't bottlecrowing or getting every rune).
Lvl 6 or 7 --> Go to Sidelanes and push/kill/whatever is possible (you'll probably never ever go "farming" again from here on, towers give more Gold anyway ).
Get Voidstone asap (except when you really need HP against strong nukers --> Point Booster (or if there are allready multiple arcboots on your team, which is unlikely at this point).
Now you can just spam your Carrion Swarm. This means that just about no hero can stand in a lane before you and if the enemy is not setting up a well coordinated defense they will lose towers (and therefore the snowball starts to roll).
From here just: Soul Booster --> Phaseboots --> Bloodstone --> Mek (if no one has it yet) or "casual" Platemail (basically you just NEED an armor item after the Bloodstone).. From here... Shivas/Heart/AC... All fine.
http://dotabuff.com/players/10420860/matches?game_mode=&hero=death-prophet&match_type=real&page=1
Last 2 Months (25 Games) i'm at 76% winrate with this, last 5 Months (60 Games) at 68%... Mostly pure solopubbing...
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Spam your opponent out of lane (if you didn't allready which you should have if he isn't bottlecrowing or getting every rune).
Without a bottle or any form of mana reg? Literally impossible to spam your opponent out of lane unless he forgot to buy any form of regen whatsoever, you have mana for like 3 swarms. At level 1 it wouldn't be close enough to get him out of lane. At level 3 he probably will have bottle so also nowhere close enough to get him out of lane. It's actually the opposite. Without a bottle and only 1 salve it's very likely it's you who are going to be spammed out of lane.
Mana boots alone is not enough to sustain krob's spell-spam...
Bloodstone is bad for Krob. If you disagree feel free to actually put arguments for it. I have already said mine.
So you are telling me to go push / gank sidelanes with only mana boots. Assuming I followed your build. No other items whatsoever?
And finally, no, the hardest snowballing build on Krob would be: Phase + Bottle + Wand -> Skadi -> AC -> Heart -> Sheep. But that's greedy as fck and would most likely not work unless you get safelane and the protection a hardcarry would. My build is a lot more all-around and far from greedy since most items have easy build-ups and it will work in all cases.
Pubs are for sure the place to show how strong your build is. Singsing had 1300 gpm with Phase MoM Luna and not skilling beam/ult. Clearly the way to play the hero.
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On May 22 2013 21:40 DrPandaPhD wrote:Show nested quote +Spam your opponent out of lane (if you didn't allready which you should have if he isn't bottlecrowing or getting every rune). Without a bottle or any form of mana reg? Literally impossible to spam your opponent out of lane unless he forgot to buy any form of regen whatsoever, you have mana for like 3 swarms. At level 1 it wouldn't be close enough to get him out of lane. At level 3 he probably will have bottle so also nowhere close enough to get him out of lane. It's actually the opposite. Without a bottle and only 1 salve it's very likely it's you who are going to be spammed out of lane.
You're reading his post incorrectly. He's saying you should rush arcanes and THEN spam the opponent out of lane. If you LH well and start with boots, you should have zero problem spamming your opponent out at that point unless he's bottlecrowing, because it will be really early. Opponent will have bottle though, but that's why he said "if opponent is not bottle crowing/getting every rune".
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On May 22 2013 21:52 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2013 21:40 DrPandaPhD wrote:Spam your opponent out of lane (if you didn't allready which you should have if he isn't bottlecrowing or getting every rune). Without a bottle or any form of mana reg? Literally impossible to spam your opponent out of lane unless he forgot to buy any form of regen whatsoever, you have mana for like 3 swarms. At level 1 it wouldn't be close enough to get him out of lane. At level 3 he probably will have bottle so also nowhere close enough to get him out of lane. It's actually the opposite. Without a bottle and only 1 salve it's very likely it's you who are going to be spammed out of lane. You're reading his post incorrectly. He's saying you should rush arcanes and THEN spam the opponent out of lane. If you LH well and start with boots, you should have zero problem spamming your opponent out at that point unless he's bottlecrowing, because it will be really early. Opponent will have bottle though, but that's why he said "if opponent is not bottle crowing/getting every rune".
Rush Arcaines ---> You should have them by lvl 5/6 normally --> Spam your opponent out of lane (if you didn't allready which you should have if he isn't bottlecrowing or getting every rune).
Actually he said that if you haven't already spammed him out of lane (which I say is impossible) then you should be able to do it now. And even then, with mana boots only, you can't spam someone out of a lane. Mana boots gives 110 mana. Level 3 swarm cost 130. And it has a 55second cooldown. That is not going to be enough to spam an opponent out of a lane.
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On May 22 2013 22:03 DrPandaPhD wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2013 21:52 Tobberoth wrote:On May 22 2013 21:40 DrPandaPhD wrote:Spam your opponent out of lane (if you didn't allready which you should have if he isn't bottlecrowing or getting every rune). Without a bottle or any form of mana reg? Literally impossible to spam your opponent out of lane unless he forgot to buy any form of regen whatsoever, you have mana for like 3 swarms. At level 1 it wouldn't be close enough to get him out of lane. At level 3 he probably will have bottle so also nowhere close enough to get him out of lane. It's actually the opposite. Without a bottle and only 1 salve it's very likely it's you who are going to be spammed out of lane. You're reading his post incorrectly. He's saying you should rush arcanes and THEN spam the opponent out of lane. If you LH well and start with boots, you should have zero problem spamming your opponent out at that point unless he's bottlecrowing, because it will be really early. Opponent will have bottle though, but that's why he said "if opponent is not bottle crowing/getting every rune". Rush Arcaines ---> You should have them by lvl 5/6 normally --> Spam your opponent out of lane (if you didn't allready which you should have if he isn't bottlecrowing or getting every rune). Actually he said that if you haven't already spammed him out of lane (which I say is impossible) then you should be able to do it now. And even then, with mana boots only, you can't spam someone out of a lane. Mana boots gives 110 mana. Level 3 swarm cost 130. And it has a 55second cooldown. That is not going to be enough to spam an opponent out of a lane.
Yeah you're right, even if you go 2 points in whichcraft crypt swarm is still 125 mana, the math does not add up.
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"Spamming him out of lane":
Autoattack him whenever possible (you got boots first and have very good range, so you should look pretty decent when doing hit and run)... You don't trade, you just hit him whenever possible. You can't really compete for lasthits anyway... Well, maybe if you lane against Necrolyte or Zeus...
Obviously there are a some heroes that this does not work that good against (but you should not go boots first against these or then just play like a coward )...
Doesn't matter much in the long run anyway as long as you don't fuck up too hard .
Mana boots alone is not enough to sustain krob's spell-spam...
Bloodstone is bad for Krob. If you disagree feel free to actually put arguments for it. I have already said mine.
[/quote]
Ok.. First of all this is for sure personal taste but here i go at my try to save Bloodstones honour :D:
Where i have an issue is during buildup:
1: Arcane Boots vs Phaseboots/Bottle --> Arcane allow (very) early teampushes Phaseboots alllow you... I don't know, i guess when you get a good rune at the right time Phase/Bottle is very decent/superiour too, if not, it's worse (and more expensive). The Manaboost from early arcane actually helps when going to a sidelane.
2: Arcane Boots + Voidstone vs Phase/Sobimask/Voidstone = I can spam now, you still lack the manapool to even really use your 150% regen (or do you go Void + Bracer or whatever?).
3: Arcane Boots + Voidstone + Pointbooster ---> I can spam now and i am tanky... Your... Buying the 10 int stick and now finally have Mana to actually use your stuff and are still rune dependant?
4: Phaseboots + Voidstone + Soulbooster (5525 Gold?) vs Phase/Bottle/Euls/Bracer (5425 Gold?) -->... I'm frigging tanky with a big ass manapool and faster than most heroes, your way faster than most heroes and have cyclone? Sorry, I don't see Cyclone "winning" this fight...
5: Bloodstone/Phaseboots (6400?) vs Phase/Bottle/Euls/Drums (6650) --> I'm fucking tanky with tons of HP/Mana-Regen while still being fater than most other heroes. Your now friggin fast (which is fun and strong) and have cyclone, your manareg is "ok", your livereg is utter shit and your general tankiness is utter shit while you sport drums, which someone else on your team might also would have built anyway.. AND you spent more money!
I'm awesome, your not!
Your turn :D.
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1. Phase is for lasthitting. It's strong and there is no way you can spam spells that much early game. Way more chasing power / escape early as well. Mobility early-game is extremely valueable because if you can outrun their supports you will often times survive. I go phase -> drums -> euls. A lot of pros agree that phase is the way to go, including the chinese player (now caster) 2009 in his guide.
2. Using 1 crypt swarm every minute is hardly spamming. Bottle + runecontrol / bottlecrowing allows for like 3swarms a minute.
Arcane boots + voidstone leaves you with what? 700 hp, low mobility, and you are going to teamfight? Don't really see the logic here. Unless you face people who are bad and they don't punish it whatsoever. You are way too squishy to even try to fight at this point.
3. With bottle I have way less mana issues than a mana boots rush. You can start using your spells way earlier. You said yourself you will get mana boots by lvl 5/6. Which means you had no mana regen up to that point, which means like 4 swarms total for the first 5minutes. And after that you can use 1 swarm every minute... It also means you haven't had any hp regen except for a salve which the other mid should punish if he's even a mediocre mid. Way too easy punish-able build. Not going bottle at all is straight up suicide vs decent opponents.
4. As I talked in the original post, there are more ways to become hard to kill than just straight up stacking health. Eul's makes you >invulnerable<. You can also use it to dodge abilites. And you don't die if they can't even touch you due to your movement speed. Way easier positioning and harder to focus down. Cyclone can also be used to let your teammates catch up in a chase, cancel TPs since Krob doesn't have an interrupt and as a general CC. It can also be used to dispel debuffs such as orchid. Eul's is a must have item basically. It gives her everything she need.
5. Bloodstone phase Krob is easier to focus down. To give you a perspective. It's easier to kill a pudge with 4000 hp than an anti-mage with 2000 or a puck with level 4 phase + blink + forcestaff with 1300hp. Stacking hp is not the only way to survive in this game. Mobility is another. And how is my mana regen "ok" and you have "tons of mana-regen" when my build has more? Eul's makes you invulnerable. Making them either have to change target or sit there and wait for 2.5 seconds and accomplishing nothing when your ghosts are still doing full dmg + your teammates.
Another perspective is that if the enemy team tries to smoke gank you with let's say Lina+Sand king, and you don't have sentries. When they get close enough for you to reveal them and you have 500 movement speed it's still going to be hard for them to catch you. But if you have 400 movespeed you might end up getting stunned and once you are caught you are dead. Doesn't matter if you have 500 hp more. Once again, stacking hp is not the only way to survive.
And since my build is going Heart after Drums + Euls it gives you all the hp regen you could ask for.
I would 1vs1 you with any mid hero vs your krob just to make you realize how easily punished that build is. One salve through level 1-7? No way any decent mid player is going to let you get away with that, no matter hero. Or if you have a team and want to play a scrim and pick krob and choose what midhero we should have then I'd be up for that as well.
Feel free to actually try the build. I didn't make it because it's "fun to be fast". I made it because it's more reliable and makes Krob stronger and harder to kill than a bloodstone build. I've tried a lot of different builds for her and this is the one I found to be the strongest, most reliable and hardest to punish.
PM me / write here if you want to 1v1 / scrim. It's not an ego-contest, it's just to show how vulnerable that build is. It's like going 5 hatcheries 70 drones before spawning pool in SC2. It might be strong if left uncontested for 40minutes. But too easy to punish by decent opponents.
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I know that it's vunerable and i tryed your built, i just felt constantly manastarfed .
Will try it again for sure.. As you said, it's not an ego contest ^^. BUT i think your being a bit to harsh on Bloodstone which, if you get it early, is just awesome on her
Just tryed it... But I don't know, can't judge it until a game is actually close... Being fast for sure is fun tho
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Decided on Mek after Drums/Euls but I think that it worked.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZtaWqZQ.jpg)
For chopper~!
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great portion on bloodstone! I have been going that but now that you break it down, what a useless item! I'll start rushing the sheep insteak to get that extra mana, then build tanky! Personally i enjoy AC, let them feel the power of the ULT!
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I do like to go bloodstone on Korb.
As the fellow stated earlier, Arcane boots to voidstone/pointbooster. It is very easy to get early game, when your ult comes up try to take a tower. Do not buy another energy booster for your bloodstone, when you have pers, point and vit dissasemble your boots and you have bloodstone. It makes early game easy with arcanes, you get a very early bloodstone - you can survive and spam, and you have then means to get easy income to make travs.
It is really easy to roll with korb, and bloodstone has always been useful to me. I know I do not plan on dying and if I do I do not get my ult back, that is not the reason I go bloodstone on korb. I go bloodstone because it is an easy build progression, you can get it very early and it is very useful.
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Lalalaland34490 Posts
On August 14 2013 13:30 burlow wrote:
I go bloodstone because it is an easy build progression, you can get it very early
Hardly easier than phase boots/drums/Euls.
and it is very useful.
But this part requires more backing. The OP provided several points as to why Bloodstone is massively overrated and isn't as useful as everyone thinks it is. Why do you you think it's useful?
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First arcane boots are a better team item than phase, if it is the first thing you farm on korb, you should have it by the time you are lvl 6. At level 6 take your ult, go to a side lane and take a tower, you have your ult to dps the tower (its low level but will still bring it down) you have arcane boots to give your allies mana in case they try to defend, you may easily get a kill or assist in the process.
Tower is now down, you will have money for a void stone. Farm a couple lanes mid, get your ult back up, get WC a couple levels higher. When ult is up try to take another tower, one again arcane boots will help the team and you should easily have two of their tier 1 downs down when you are level 11. Two towers + korbs ability to farm with swarm you can have pers + point booster, without a problem. Use the energy booster from your arcane boots (disassemble) to make your bloodstone when you have the money for a vit booster. This is a very easy way to get a bloodstone, dare I say easier than phase/drums/euls.
Now you have bloodstone, and dont have arcane (you used your energy booster to make your stone), travs is your next item. You have survivablity and mana regen, now you get an items with greater ms than phase and get a global presence.
for the value boots + bloodstone is 325 gold less than phase, euls, and drums. With bloodstone you will get over 300 hp more than you will from drums and you will not run out of mana.
The ability to disassemble arcane boots is the reason to go bloodstone. There is no reason to have phase boots on korb after you can spam spells, I think anybody on this forum will agree with that. Euls is nice for mana and MS, having bloodstone will solve mana problems and travs are the best shoes for korb. There is no wasted items going bloodstone the manner I stated, it is very simple to do, and helps you to be an early game presence with arcane boots.
Now why is bloodstone massively overrated? Is it because I cannot immediately ult on respawn? That is not the reason I am going bloodstone - it is an easy item build progression and should be made in the early - mid game when korb is a very strong hero.
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Lalalaland34490 Posts
If I read your post and replaced all the names of Bloodstone components with the names of Drum and Euls components, it wouldn't strike me as very different. You already have the Bottle for your own regen and it is sufficient for early pushing. Yes you won't have Arcanes for your pushes on the side lanes but Arcanes are more of a sustained teamfight thing rather than a single push item.
Phase boots are important not just for the move speed but for the phase effect when chasing and escaping. Drums + Euls may not grant you as much HP as Bloodstone but they give you more move speed (than just Travels) as well as the Euls active, which is great for both self survivability as well as isolating enemies.
The global presence of Travels is the only thing advantage from your item progression but that's still blowing 2000 gold on a non-combat item.
Your concluding point about it having easy item build progression and made in the early-mid game still pales when compared to the easy item build progression and early-effectiveness of Phase + Drums + Euls.
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On August 14 2013 14:32 burlow wrote:
for the value boots + bloodstone is 325 gold less than phase, euls, and drums. With bloodstone you will get over 300 hp more than you will from drums and you will not run out of mana.
That's a shit comparison--phase/drums/euls gives you far more movespeed, better rune control in lane, better last hitting power / harass in lane, a disable or self disrupt in teamfights, more damage, and a useful teamfight aura. I would argue that in midgame teamfights, having the extra 100+ movement speed is FAR more beneficial for survivability than an extra 300 hp, not to mention most often you miss kills not because you didn't have enough mana but because you weren't in the right position to cast your spells.
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On August 14 2013 14:32 burlow wrote:
First arcane boots are a better team item than phase, if it is the first thing you farm on korb, you should have it by the time you are lvl 6. At level 6 take your ult, go to a side lane and take a tower, you have your ult to dps the tower (its low level but will still bring it down) you have arcane boots to give your allies mana in case they try to defend, you may easily get a kill or assist in the process.
Tower is now down, you will have money for a void stone. Farm a couple lanes mid, get your ult back up, get WC a couple levels higher. When ult is up try to take another tower, one again arcane boots will help the team and you should easily have two of their tier 1 downs down when you are level 11. Two towers + korbs ability to farm with swarm you can have pers + point booster, without a problem. Use the energy booster from your arcane boots (disassemble) to make your bloodstone when you have the money for a vit booster. This is a very easy way to get a bloodstone, dare I say easier than phase/drums/euls.
Now you have bloodstone, and dont have arcane (you used your energy booster to make your stone), travs is your next item. You have survivablity and mana regen, now you get an items with greater ms than phase and get a global presence.
for the value boots + bloodstone is 325 gold less than phase, euls, and drums. With bloodstone you will get over 300 hp more than you will from drums and you will not run out of mana.
The ability to disassemble arcane boots is the reason to go bloodstone. There is no reason to have phase boots on korb after you can spam spells, I think anybody on this forum will agree with that. Euls is nice for mana and MS, having bloodstone will solve mana problems and travs are the best shoes for korb. There is no wasted items going bloodstone the manner I stated, it is very simple to do, and helps you to be an early game presence with arcane boots.
Now why is bloodstone massively overrated? Is it because I cannot immediately ult on respawn? That is not the reason I am going bloodstone - it is an easy item build progression and should be made in the early - mid game when korb is a very strong hero.
Your arguement for bloodstone is simply "it's easy to build" without any justifications at all....basically you just made 2 wrong item choices at one go. It's like you just made a wrong choice, then you make another wrong choice yet again to try and cover up that first mistake instead of avoiding/learning from that mistake in the first place.
What's the mistakes? --> Arcane Boots into Bloodstone.
As to why it's wrong, it's been listed in this very guide itself. If your going Arcane into Bloodstone because you feel mana starved, your doing it wrong.
Death Prophet with Bottle/Drums/Wand will have enough mana pool to do whatever she needs to do. The ending result is a very streamlined and effective prophet which is better than your build no matter how you swing it.
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By the way, Arcanes give ~120 mana per minute. Why do you get them if you want to spam ?
a voidstone first would give you more manareg for less gold (even if you don't give mana to allies, but that's once every ult, so it may not be worth it...).
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On August 14 2013 14:32 burlow wrote:
First arcane boots are a better team item than phase, if it is the first thing you farm on korb, you should have it by the time you are lvl 6. At level 6 take your ult, go to a side lane and take a tower, you have your ult to dps the tower (its low level but will still bring it down) you have arcane boots to give your allies mana in case they try to defend, you may easily get a kill or assist in the process.
Tower is now down, you will have money for a void stone. Farm a couple lanes mid, get your ult back up, get WC a couple levels higher. When ult is up try to take another tower, one again arcane boots will help the team and you should easily have two of their tier 1 downs down when you are level 11. Two towers + korbs ability to farm with swarm you can have pers + point booster, without a problem. Use the energy booster from your arcane boots (disassemble) to make your bloodstone when you have the money for a vit booster. This is a very easy way to get a bloodstone, dare I say easier than phase/drums/euls.
Now you have bloodstone, and dont have arcane (you used your energy booster to make your stone), travs is your next item. You have survivablity and mana regen, now you get an items with greater ms than phase and get a global presence.
for the value boots + bloodstone is 325 gold less than phase, euls, and drums. With bloodstone you will get over 300 hp more than you will from drums and you will not run out of mana.
The ability to disassemble arcane boots is the reason to go bloodstone. There is no reason to have phase boots on korb after you can spam spells, I think anybody on this forum will agree with that. Euls is nice for mana and MS, having bloodstone will solve mana problems and travs are the best shoes for korb. There is no wasted items going bloodstone the manner I stated, it is very simple to do, and helps you to be an early game presence with arcane boots.
Now why is bloodstone massively overrated? Is it because I cannot immediately ult on respawn? That is not the reason I am going bloodstone - it is an easy item build progression and should be made in the early - mid game when korb is a very strong hero.
This guide is to help people who have problems with DP / wants to learn a different way to play her. It's the way I play her and I have a lot of success with the build. I still think Bloodstone is bad on her for the reasons I've already pointed out.
A lot of people has disagreed with you so I guess "anybody" is wrong.
The ability to disassemble arcane boots is the reason to go bloodstone. There is no reason to have phase boots on korb after you can spam spells, I think anybody on this forum will agree with that.
In the end, some people have appreciated the guide and started to build the way I do. That's what I made the guide for. If you feel like I am THAT wrong, feel free to come play in the Teamliquid Inhouses and show me how to play DP. I am active and would appreciate to get different views on how to play the hero : )
This is taken from the inhouses / TMM so I guess the build is working for me?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/DuDabkF.jpg)
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Krob has become one of my favorite heroes since reading this guide, thanks tons. currently sitting at a respectable 58.5% winrate over 77 games, KDA 2.99. a few questions:
- in teamfights, do you ever eul their carries? most of the time i use it as i would a defensive Disruption. rush in with ghosts up (silencing is situational, as the enemy just might run away), tank for the team, and cyclone myself up. when i come back down, i phase to the back while right clicking ghosts and spamming swarm.
- how do you feel about DP not being picked once during the entirety of TI3? will she need more buffs (the 6.78 buffs were pretty nice btw), a shift in metagame, or both, in order to see a resurgence?
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On August 16 2013 04:47 woebegone wrote:
- in teamfights, do you ever eul their carries? most of the time i use it as i would a defensive Disruption. rush in with ghosts up (silencing is situational, as the enemy just might run away), tank for the team, and cyclone myself up. when i come back down, i phase to the back while right clicking ghosts and spamming swarm.
Generally my gameplan for teamfights is to silence the supports/casters and euls either whoever the silence doesn't catch or euls the person with the most dps (usually the carry). As for defensive euls usage, I would only do it to either disjoint a stun or survive for the rest of your team to clean up (i.e. you're very close to dying). Your ghosts don't do enough dps to merit rushing into the middle of the enemy team, stay in the back lines and keep spamming crypt swarm.
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EPT
