Krobelus was a Death Prophet-which is one way of saying she told fortunes for the wealthiest of those who wished to look beyond the veil. But after years of inquiring on behalf of others, she began to seek clues on her own fate. When death refused to yield its secrets, she tried to buy them with her life. But the ultimate price proved insufficient. Death disgorged her again and again, always holding back its deepest mysteries. Her jealousy grew. Others could die for eternity—why not she? Why must she alone be cast back on the shores of life with such tiresome regularity? Why was she not worthy of the one thing all other living creatures took for granted? Still, she would not be discouraged. Each time she returned from the grave, she brought a bit of death back with her. Wraiths followed her like fragments of her shattered soul; her blood grew thin and ectoplasmic; the feasting creatures of twilight took her for their kin.. She gave a little of her life with every demise, and it began to seem as if her end was in sight. With her dedication to death redoubled, and no client other than herself, Krobelus threw herself ever more fervently into death's abyss, intent on fulfilling the one prophecy that eluded her: That someday the Death Prophet would return from death no more.
Hello everyone. I am bringing you a guide to DP and a small guide to Bloodstone.
Krobelus is a very strong pusher that can carry. One of the few int heroes that have a good carry potential. She has almost unrivalled movement speed and a devastating midgame potential. You can almost not be juked as DP, because even if you lack vision, your ghosts are still attacking the target. She is probably the most difficult hero in the game to juke (apart from Night stalker with Agh scepter). Plus she just got a pretty big buff 6.79! ^_^
Pros: + Strong push + Strong early teamfight + Almost impossible to juke + Incredibly high movement speed + Carry-potential + Her silence is underrated as a crowd control. (6 seconds, huge range)
Cons: - Can’t really win the midlane superhard. Can only go pretty even. She is no TA / OD with the insane lasthitting power. Nor does she has the killing-potential of QoP or Batrider. This is the biggest reason why she isn't picked competatively very often. Because right now it's a lot about just having very strong early game. - Pretty easily gank-able pre level 6.
If you want to know her skills, go to liquipedia here: The only thing I can say is that you can see how long duration is left on your ultimate at your buff bar.
Skillbuild:
The point is to get your nuke up as fast as possible. Your passive is extremely important for farming / fighting / survivability so max that after. Get one point in silence because it’s good to have something to interrupt channelling / to have a silence in general. But it doesn’t scale as well as the others so just keep it level 1 until Crypt Swarm and Witchcraft is maxed.
At level 7 it should look like this: At level 11 it should look like this:
Some people like to build DP like this instead. Leaving Crypt Swarm at lvl 3 to have more mana-effective nukes. I don't like it because in early teamfights I don't want to rely being able to do 4-5 swarms. Usually the fights early game ends very quick so I don't have to be mana effective since at the point I am OOM the fight is over.
if you farm the easy camp with lvl 4 swarm with Phase + Bottle + Wand + Drums (the items you will have around the time you are level 9) you will have to swarm the camp once and then hit every creep once and they will die. With level 3 swarm you will have to hit every creep twice instead which wastes a lot of time. In general the level 3 swarm is more inefficent for clearing camps fast.
The skillbuild is good, I just prefer the first one because I farm the easy camp so often.
Items:
The entire item build up to Skadi is an extremely mainstreamed build I have made. Compare it to telling people to build Treads, battlefury, manta, heart, abyssal, bfly on Antimage. It might not the absolute best items in the game BUT you can always go that build in every game and have good success with it. There will be optimizations depending on the game but this is the best general guideline build I have made yet.
Starting items:
The general starting build for most mid heroes. It’s a good build which will get you a quick bottle + the 3 branches goes into a magic wand later.
The vs Shadowfiend build:
You need to play very aggressive vs a Shadowfiend early. And extra last hitting power is also important to beat a SF. Abuse the fact that SF is the weakest level 1 hero and punish it as much as possible.
The vs Batrider build:
Just get an early magic stick to counter the sticky napalm spam.
The midgame item build:
These are the items you want before 18min. If you can’t get it before 18min you need to practice being mid in general. You should have it by that time in at least 80-90% of your games. Unless you actually got ganked 2-3 times, then it’s fine. You will have a huge movement speed with these items, and Eul's gives you sick survivability. It will also help you spam spells a bit more. If you have really low health and you Eul's yourself when the ghosts are returning to you then you will get back on the ground with full hp. Eul's either forces your opponent to sit and wait for 3 seconds for you to return to the ground or change target. It is by far the best item on DP early game.
The followup:
After Eul's you should get just get a heart. Increases your health pool drastically. You want this item before 30minutes.
After that:
You should always get a sheepstick at this point on DP. In my opinion, Sheepstick is one of the very few items in the game that can really turn the tide in a teamfight once you get it. The other few items are BKB on an important hero / Blink / Mek / Pipe. Sheepstick really is one of the best items in the game and there is no reason not to build one.
After Sheepstick you should get a Skadi imo. Skadi is amazing on DP. Gives her the stats she needs AND a very good anti-carry slow/attack speed slow that goes through BKB. This item destroys heroes like Naix and Sven but are generally good vs all carries.
At this point you are almost untouchable. So from here you basically just need to build a bit more dps’ish. Aura items like AC is really good if your team doesn’t have a good AC carrier. Otherwise you can go full dps with items like MKB. Similar to how you build Storm Spirit / QoP late-game.
Also note that DP is a decent pipe/mek carrier, so if your team really needs one you should get one as well.
The very situational items on DP I would only get BKB if our team already had a pipe and I still needed to get more magic protection. Pipe has a higher priority than BKB for DP. Because it scales well with her higher healthpool later into the game and you should always try to protect your supports whenever possible. So only get BKB vs very heavy-magic focused teams when your team already have a pipe carrier (such as a darkseer)
Ghost scepter is a very useful item vs the right lineups. It's a very cost-effective item, but it's not a slot-effective one. So if it is possible to try to avoid going Ghost Scepter you should always try to avoid it. But there will always be situations you are forced to go into it (like vs an anti-mage who has very high mobility).
The awful on Death Prophet items:
Vanguard is a very cost-ineffective heroes in general. But especially ranged heroes. There is way more efficient ways to get tanky. Don’t go this. If you really need to increase your health pool get a casual vitality booster and keep it until you build heart later. But remember, there are more ways to get tanky than just go full out hp. Eul's makes you harder to kill than Vanguard even though Eu'ls doesn't give a single point of hp.
A mini-guide to Bloodstone and why it is awful on DP: + Show Spoiler +
Ok so first of all: What makes Bloodstone good? It continuously increases your mana pool / mana regen. It helps you snowball. And it gives you a really fast respawn timer once you die.
Let's compare it to a hero which it is good on, Storm Spirit.
1. The main reason: Once you have Euls + Sheepstick, it’s impossible to go OOM (out of mana) as Death Prophet. So there is no point in building an item that increases your mana pool / mana regen even further because you can’t use it anyway. It’s very similar to how people don’t build Bloodstone on QoP, because after sheepstick it’s really difficult to run OOM. However, on a hero like Storm Spirit, even when Storm is 6slotted. He can still run out of mana. Which makes it a useful item for him.
2. Death Prophet is not a snowballer. She doesn’t pick people off the same way Storm Spirit does. Bloodstone is made for snowballers. It helps you win even more when you are already winning. It doesn’t help you get back into the game, quite the opposite. You need to stay alive and participate in a lot of kills for Bloodstone to be effective (which will not happen if your team is losing). Storm has a good escape mechanism which often let him stay alive in fights, so he can snowball.
3. Death Prophet really needs her ultimate to be effective in team fights. Even if she instantly respawn with a stacked bloodstone, she can’t accomplish much. There is almost no point for her in being alive if she doesn’t have her ultimate ready. Compare it to Storm Spirit who is ready to fight immedietly after he respawns again.
So there is nothing about bloodstone that has synergy with the hero except for the increase in health. But there are a lot more cost-efficient ways to get hp.
Your worst enemies:
Templar Assassin just hurts your early game too much with her lasthitting power if the player is good. Which makes you very easily gank-able post laning phase.
Anything that has a larger mana pool gets wrecked by Anti-Mage. But he’s not a super-hard counter because of how much mobility you have. He’s still annoying though. And Ghost Scepter is a really good item vs him.
Night Stalker’s first night kind of destroys Krobelus. She is as most vulnerable before Drums + Euls and Night Stalkers first night ruins her life. If you survive past the first night you don’t have much to fear after that though. He is even worse now after the patch (riot pls nerf).
Good teammates: Anything with control really. That’s the only thing DP lacks. Almost all heroes work well with her so there are far too many to list.
How to play DP
Laning phase:
Pretty much like every other mid hero. Nuke the waves to last hit + harass your opponent. Try to push the lane into his tower before the rune spawns etc. Don’t think there is anything specific for DP in this phase. As a general mid tip I can give is that if you are radiant and have inferior rune control possibilities so you have to guess the rune. It’s better to nuke the wave twice quite early, get the xp, not the farm as much. Go and stack the easy camp at 53 and then pull the camp towards the bottom rune. That way you guess the rune but are still doing something efficient. If it’s not there you will have to bottle crow.
Midgame:
Try to farm up your core items. You would be surprised how difficult you become to kill once you have them. Push towers together with your team. Always be ready to teleport to fights. She is not a hard-carry (even though she can carry), make sure you contribute to your team.
Once you have your core + heart/skadi you are at your prime. You will be close to impossible to kill in teamfights if you position yourself well. Your spirits will do a ton of damage.
Lategame:
With Euls and Sheepstick you will never run OOM. Your focus should be to sheepstick their carry while killing the enemy supports as quickly as possible. Her lategame fighting power is still incredibly potent. Try to draw as much fire as possibly away from your own supports. Your carry can only carry if his supports are there to help him, so make sure they are.
Understanding Death Prophet's biggest weaknessess and why she isn't picked competitively.
The easiest way to deal with a Krobelus is to gank her early game. She is very vulnerable during this phase and one of the bigger reasons as to why she isn't picked competitively. With a bad start it's very hard to catch up on her because she needs to participate in a lot of the team fights / pushes but due to the lack of farm from the early game she is really squishy and easy to kill. Krobelus is also very vulnerable to split-pushing because if the enemy team just chooses to never fight her straight up for a long time and just delay the game through constant split-pushing she loses her power.
Even if Death Prophet doesn't get ganked early game she still loses most of the common mid matchups (batrider / TA etc). And even the ones she does fairly well in, she doesn't dominate them. Krobelus can only go even in the mid and trade farm with the opponent.
To pick Death Prophet you need a lineup built around her. You can put her on the safelane to make sure she gets farm. The team needs to have practiced with the hero a lot to get her in their comfort zone and understand how to play around her. She is in general considered a very risky pick. You want a lineup that is really scary to fight into at a tower so the enemies don't want to fight. But you also needs heroes that are good vs splitpushers, as it's her biggest weakness. I think Dragon Knight is a good hero to have on the team. Brings a bit of anti splitpush, has about the same peak times as DP and they both have spammable nukes for when the enemy team tries to push when your ults are down.
You generally want a team that aims to win around 25-35 minutes, or at least start to push the enemy tier 3s about this time. Heroes that push when their ults are up are the best heroes to have on your team, just don't get too many of the big ults. Never want to rely entirely on big ults. So a lineup like Timbersaw, DP, DK, Chen and Shadow Demon. So even though DP is a pusher you don't want to go full-out push strat because her ulti cooldown is too long for that.
On February 05 2013 00:55 aintz wrote: one of the worse heroes that can pub stomp because people are bad. a lot of people seem to want to hug the ghosts.
Yeah, I was playing DP the other day against a Bane, and during the teamfight he put me to sleep with my ult up. So basically I was sitting there taking no damage in the middle of the fight, while my ult was wrecking everyone else. Huge mistake by the bane sleeping a DP with ult up
On February 05 2013 01:55 Darkren wrote: I disagree with the heart and skadi options, those are good items, but normally u will never have time to farm for them.
Mek, blademail and ghost scepter are much better variants
Uh, I have managed to get either Heart or Skadi in like every single pub / scrim / inhouse that lasted more than 30min unless we got uberstomped. You should have 500 gpm as DP, just like any other "2nd position" / solo mid hero.
Blademail is awful in this build, since pre-heart/sheep/skadi you are relying on mobility (and using euls) for survivability and don't have the health pool to make blademail decent, and after those items you are semi-slot constrained and probably aren't the focus in teamfights anymore.
Ghost is OK, and has been mentioned, but it is highly situational. Great at the right time tho.
On February 05 2013 02:27 Mafe wrote: Nice guide. What about veil of discord
Insanely bad on this hero
On February 05 2013 02:27 Mafe wrote: , boots of travel
Late game situational on DP same as every other hero
On February 05 2013 02:27 Mafe wrote: and bkb?
DP doesn't mind being stunned so long as she has her ulti going. If they are pure magic damage you probably want a pipe over BKB. Situationally it is OK but rarely all that good.
On February 05 2013 02:27 Mafe wrote: Nice guide. What about veil of discord, boots of travel and bkb?
Her ult is physical so veil of discord isn't very good on her. The armor is nice but 6armor for 2600gold is not really worth it.
BoTs are very good, just a later-game item. After you sold bottle/wand and still have no slots for tps I would get BoTs.
I would get BKB if I am facing a very magic-heavy team and you already have a good pipe-carrier on your team. If you can carry the pipe yourself then bkb isn't rly needed.
So BoTs I would get every lategame scenario BKB in the right situations VoDiscord never
On February 05 2013 02:27 Mafe wrote: Nice guide. What about veil of discord, boots of travel and bkb?
Sn0_Man already basically got it, but you shouldn't be the one getting veil as a 2nd position farmer (and your ulti is physical damage anyway), and you would prioritize big health items (bloodstone, heart) or pipe over BKB since those let you survive in much longer teamfights. With as much health as you should have, a few spells don't hurt, and stunning you doesn't do much since ghosts are still raping face.
I do think bloodstone is decent as a situational pick if you're farming exceptionally well. It has its uses in teamfights and is by far the easiest way to get insane mana regen for nuke spam if your team is performing well.
On February 05 2013 02:43 synapse wrote: I do think bloodstone is decent as a situational pick if you're farming exceptionally well.
All his reasons for bloodstone being bad are valid, but I still think I go bloodstone just about every time on this hero. Mostly because I'm lazy and want mana-boots in lane for convenience. Yes, I know they don't come close to solving her mana problems. Bloodstone is such a nice easy tank+regen item though, and it builds from mana boots so nicely. For me, builds are pretty often about convenience and not that often about optimization XD.
For example, mid-late game on supports when I find myself with 1.5K gold or so, I usually just turn my bracer into drums instead of buying something useful (I should probably sell the bracer for ghost in most circumstances like that )
On February 05 2013 03:12 Weasel- wrote: I would not always agree with getting ult before level 10, as level one exorcism is pretty weak, especially without many points in witchcraft.
Even with 1 witchcraft, having that 1 point in exorcism is worth it. What else would you do with that point, get 2 levels in witchcraft? All that does is boost your nuke a little, which is nothing compared to your ult. Even with 1 point in exorcism/witchcraft you can still use it to win early teamfights/gank/counter gank/push towers etc.
As for the guide, looks good, should really include a bit on BKB though and when it is a good idea (I know you mention it in a reply later but should be in OP).
Ghost scepter and Shiva's for optional items imo ^_^
I read advice previously that said to consider 3 in Nuke, 1 Silence, 2 WC, 1 Ult at 7 as an option. The reasoning was that the Damage/mana goes down from level 3->4 which makes it not that worth while compared to leveling WC if you don't have the mana items for it. The DPS of wave (if you cast multiple) is the same (or about the same depending on exorcism level) because of the -cooldown, but with WC you get the needed movement speed, silence boosts, and extra ghosts for exorcism. The recommendation was to grab level 4 nuke when you have the mana boosting items to support the extra mana cost. You'd also grab level 4 if you weren't planning on pushing or think that your fights are going to be too bursty to miss out on the extra damage.
Basically, get Carrion to level 3 asap, then max Witch first. Ulti at 8-9. Rarely would you need it before. You need high levels of Witch for your Ulti to be good. Silence whenever you need it. It's flexible.
Medallion is strong on her. Basically items should be tanking up, and transition to Hex.
On February 05 2013 04:36 Logo wrote: I read advice previously that said to consider 3 in Nuke, 1 Silence, 2 WC, 1 Ult at 7 as an option. The reasoning was that the Damage/mana goes down from level 3->4 which makes it not that worth while compared to leveling WC if you don't have the mana items for it. The DPS of wave (if you cast multiple) is the same (or about the same depending on exorcism level) because of the -cooldown, but with WC you get the needed movement speed, silence boosts, and extra ghosts for exorcism. The recommendation was to grab level 4 nuke when you have the mana boosting items to support the extra mana cost. You'd also grab level 4 if you weren't planning on pushing or think that your fights are going to be too bursty to miss out on the extra damage.
Anyways, is that still reasonable advice?
It's the right build. In all cases, maxing Carrion first is stupid.
That build decreases the mana cost by 20. It's not going to make you able to spam more swarms early. It's like either 3 swarms for 300 damage or 3 for 250 and have some extra mana to spare. Imo you should still always max the swarm first. However, the ultimate is more flexible in when it gets picked up, I just prefer it being picked up at 6.
Thump-up for showing the skill build like that, dota2's UI looks clearer and people should utilize that
Somehow i feel that this guide is only for solo mid DP. Bstone is by all means a nice build up items for dual lane supportive dp (albeit there ARE other choices) or a very powerful snowballing item for a dp who got a bstone before 14min, work incredibly well if you have some strong pushing or ganking line up. And then a BoT would be great on dp.
And I dont think DP has the agi stat to justify any dps item (AC, mkb) on her (unlike qop). If you are owning early you wont get them and if the game went that late you should give the farm to your core carry.
And if you can make Phase+bottle+wand+drum+Eul at 18mins then your team would be in early advantage anyway.
On February 05 2013 04:56 DrPandaPhD wrote: That build decreases the mana cost by 20. It's not going to make you able to spam more swarms early. It's like either 3 swarms for 300 damage or 3 for 250 and have some extra mana to spare. Imo you should still always max the swarm first. However, the ultimate is more flexible in when it gets picked up, I just prefer it being picked up at 6.
You save 30 mana per cast (125 vs 155). That's an extra cast of carrion swarm every 4 casts (120x5 = 600 vs 155*4 = 620)
The point too is that at 7 you have a stronger ult and more movespeed (making an even stronger ult). Usually at this point as Krob I'm ganking with ult up only (I don't gank with just carrion swarm), pushing an outer tower, or creep farming. In all 3 cases having the extra level of WC seems to help more.
That extra level of WC also boosts your ult damage by 15% (8 ghosts vs 7).
Skadi might be good against a melee carry in 1v1, but realistically you can't just juke them in a teamfight with autoattacks. Really wouldn't build it like ever (maybe super luxury). Even Shivas seems like way better item with the same slowing effect.
Also no mention for Rod of Atos :/ So underrated item and once again if you want to keep a melee carry away (why does he not have BKB nor any gap closer?) also a better choice than Skadi imo and an outstanding choice for those games where farm is sparse.
edit: sorry didn't notice you did mention Atos. And wow I didn't know Skadi actually goes through BKB, sorry dumb post. Anyway I recommend trying Rod of Atos as a midgame item.
On February 05 2013 06:57 duckmaster wrote: Skadi might be good against a melee carry in 1v1, but realistically you can't just juke them in a teamfight with autoattacks. Really wouldn't build it like ever (maybe super luxury). Even Shivas seems like way better item with the same slowing effect.
Also no mention for Rod of Atos :/ So underrated item and once again if you want to keep a melee carry away (why does he not have BKB nor any gap closer?) also a better choice than Skadi imo and an outstanding choice for those games where farm is sparse.
Watched a few inhouses and you play a really nice DP.
But such a fast skadi puzzles me, the slow is nice the stats are nice but it's so expensive. You kinda get the same stuff with Rod of atos which you mention later on, have you ever went for RoA before skadi? Or even a shiva if armor is needed so soon.
On February 05 2013 07:00 Andr3 wrote: Watched a few inhouses and you play a really nice DP.
But such a fast skadi puzzles me, the slow is nice the stats are nice but it's so expensive. You kinda get the same stuff with Rod of atos which you mention later on, have you ever went for RoA before skadi? Or even a shiva if armor is needed so soon.
Skadi's buildup is also quite expensive.
Great guide!
Yeah I have tried Atos quite a bit. The thing about what makes Atos really good is the incredibly long range which makes it a really good chasing item. But with the build I use I have like 500 movement speed so I don't really have issues catching up to people. I feel like Shiva's guard will always be the better item on DP.
I also go sheepstick right after Heart / Skadi which would leave me with 3 controlling-items (RoA / Sheep / Eul's) and I feel it's kind of overkill.
Eye of Skadi is such a strong item vs melee carries if you manage to get it around 30-35mins. It's the timing where they are getting big but aren't the carry powerhouses yet. If the carry is focusing your teammates, you skadi them and your teammates run. If they focus you, you still have 500 movement speed + Eul's so you can also run. If they turn around you can apply skadi again.
Any replays of this build being played? Would be nice to watch
Just interested in how you play this out during early game skirmishes, late-game positioning in teamfights and so on. I always struggle with DP, this guide might change that! :D
Also eyeballing the sub-18min item cost, and getting them 80% of the time, doesn't seem to add up. Either I'm awful at farming when losing, or I'm missing something obvious here. Would be nice to watch a replay for that too (one that you're behind in, coming out of laning phase)
Tried your build, seems to be pretty good and make sense. If only my allied rubick did not insist on stealing chrono and chronoing me in every teamfight I might have been able to use cyclone but... whatever I guess we won. I really need to use silence more though, I somehow always forget it.
On February 05 2013 09:04 Jetaap wrote: Tried your build, seems to be pretty good and make sense. If only my allied rubick did not insist on stealing chrono and chronoing me in every teamfight I might have been able to use cyclone but... whatever I guess we won. I really need to use silence more though, I somehow always forget it.
Just remember all those times you were silenced, and how much it ruined your day. Now imagine you ruining your opponents day. Then remembering to silence is easy.
You silence them because you hate them, and want to ruin their fun. (double bonus points for silencing AM, because being anti- antifun translates directly to more fun for you)
On February 05 2013 08:22 JeeJee wrote: Also eyeballing the sub-18min item cost, and getting them 80% of the time, doesn't seem to add up. Either I'm awful at farming when losing, or I'm missing something obvious here. Would be nice to watch a replay for that too (one that you're behind in, coming out of laning phase)
Its pretty reasonable to get those items at 18 min as a solo mid DP if you stack camps or push down a couple of towers, even if your lane cs isn't spectacular.
On February 05 2013 09:04 Jetaap wrote: Tried your build, seems to be pretty good and make sense. If only my allied rubick did not insist on stealing chrono and chronoing me in every teamfight I might have been able to use cyclone but... whatever I guess we won. I really need to use silence more though, I somehow always forget it.
Just remember all those times you were silenced, and how much it ruined your day. Now imagine you ruining your opponents day. Then remembering to silence is easy.
You silence them because you hate them, and want to ruin their fun. (double bonus points for silencing AM, because being anti- antifun translates directly to more fun for you)
Yeah I try to use it as much as I can now. It's funny that you're talking about AM, because last game a guy in my team had "anti-antimage" as a pseudo, and someone in the opposing team decided to pick AM. "Anti-anti mage" then picked SD, and we proceeded to ruin his day with disruption/slardar's stun/my silence. There is something hugely satisfying about using AM illusions to destroy his own manapool.
This got me to think as well to some possible nice synergies with other heroes, as the ulti is physical, wouldnt slardar's ultimate and dazzle ultimate be very very good with dark prophet? Also, maybe something to pick up when you are not solo mid, but could medaillon be a decent? (not sure about that one)
Also concerning the "ennemies", in the last game I played I found nyx to be extremely annoying with his manaburn, it really does an enormous amount of damage and he can do it really often, his carapace is annoying as well and he has a good stun. But I guess that at this point nyx is a plague for almost every hero in the game ^^.
On February 05 2013 08:22 JeeJee wrote: Also eyeballing the sub-18min item cost, and getting them 80% of the time, doesn't seem to add up. Either I'm awful at farming when losing, or I'm missing something obvious here. Would be nice to watch a replay for that too (one that you're behind in, coming out of laning phase)
Its pretty reasonable to get those items at 18 min as a solo mid DP if you stack camps or push down a couple of towers, even if your lane cs isn't spectacular.
So it seems. But my DP is clearly not good enough to do that, so that's why I'd like to see a replay to see what I'm missing
I've always blindly made a Bloodstone on her but might have to reconsider that as you make valid points.
I never seem to get fat enough on her to get multiple big items though, if we're losing I won't have the gold and if we're winning the games tend to end too fast, and if for some reason game did drag on I probably wouldn't be the hardest carry in team, very unlikely at least.
I also always rush bloodstone on her but your explanation make very much sense. probably will start going for Eul's more
though want to mention another item that synergizes greatly with her ulti (in pubs), lothar. You can ulti then lothar's out and running around invis most during the lothar duration
On February 05 2013 08:22 JeeJee wrote: Also eyeballing the sub-18min item cost, and getting them 80% of the time, doesn't seem to add up. Either I'm awful at farming when losing, or I'm missing something obvious here. Would be nice to watch a replay for that too (one that you're behind in, coming out of laning phase)
Its pretty reasonable to get those items at 18 min as a solo mid DP if you stack camps or push down a couple of towers, even if your lane cs isn't spectacular.
So it seems. But my DP is clearly not good enough to do that, so that's why I'd like to see a replay to see what I'm missing
There is a link in this thread to a subbed vod of 2009 playing DP in a pub. Same item build for the first 20 minutes iirc
On February 05 2013 04:56 DrPandaPhD wrote: That build decreases the mana cost by 20. It's not going to make you able to spam more swarms early. It's like either 3 swarms for 300 damage or 3 for 250 and have some extra mana to spare. Imo you should still always max the swarm first. However, the ultimate is more flexible in when it gets picked up, I just prefer it being picked up at 6.
You save 30 mana per cast (125 vs 155). That's an extra cast of carrion swarm every 4 casts (120x5 = 600 vs 155*4 = 620)
The point too is that at 7 you have a stronger ult and more movespeed (making an even stronger ult). Usually at this point as Krob I'm ganking with ult up only (I don't gank with just carrion swarm), pushing an outer tower, or creep farming. In all 3 cases having the extra level of WC seems to help more.
That extra level of WC also boosts your ult damage by 15% (8 ghosts vs 7).
Yes, I feel that maxing WC while leaving CS at lvl 3 is the most optimal build.
And maybe I missed it, but you didn't even say anything about the Ghost Scepter? Against physical damage, it is the best and the cheapest item for her survivability.
I did mention ghost scepter vs AM. I am going to update the OP soon with info about ghost scepter + BKB and a few replays. Just trying to figure out how to share replays from scrims.
On February 05 2013 21:49 Sassback wrote: thanks for the guide, makes me wanna queue up right now and pick that death prophet!
when i see 'queue" i see a lol player here ! good guide ! btw, i just make a game where DP go soulring / manaboots / sitygan :/ this is NOT a good build. :D
On February 05 2013 21:49 Sassback wrote: thanks for the guide, makes me wanna queue up right now and pick that death prophet!
when i see 'queue" i see a lol player here ! good guide ! btw, i just make a game where DP go soulring / manaboots / sitygan :/ this is NOT a good build. :D
On February 05 2013 21:49 Sassback wrote: thanks for the guide, makes me wanna queue up right now and pick that death prophet!
when i see 'queue" i see a lol player here ! good guide ! btw, i just make a game where DP go soulring / manaboots / sitygan :/ this is NOT a good build. :D
What? Sitygan?
Stygian = Deso
If that was what you were wondering. Could just been a "wtf why would he got that" reaction. Hard to tell on the internet
On February 04 2013 23:39 DrPandaPhD wrote: How to watch a replay: Download the pack. Move the replays to your replay folder in Steam -> Steamapps - > common -> dota 2 beta -> dota -> replays. After that launch the game and go to "Watch, and Recent games". Filter the game by the name of the replay and watch.
This doesn't work for me. Instead I had to type "playdemo replays\name" into the console.
Ok so for what it's worth i'm 6-1 on krobelus with this build, currently on a 6 win streak. It's so fun to go at max movespeed around the map, and eul's is such an amazing item for the price, gives you lots of mana regen and the active is always useful in teamfights. It's also a very good chasing tool, as you will always be able to catch up with someone with your movespeed, eul them and let your team finish him.
On February 04 2013 23:39 DrPandaPhD wrote: How to watch a replay: Download the pack. Move the replays to your replay folder in Steam -> Steamapps - > common -> dota 2 beta -> dota -> replays. After that launch the game and go to "Watch, and Recent games". Filter the game by the name of the replay and watch.
This doesn't work for me. Instead I had to type "playdemo replays\name" into the console.
Ok thnx for pointing that out. Will add it to the op ^^
the biggest thing to keep in mind for me when I play DP is positioning. Positioning is everything and with a hero like DP when you turn up ur ult, all you do is stay at the right place and Q people.
You need your team to play around you. I.e. don't go chasing heros, don't go off to the side. A team that centers around DP always win teamfight by disabling anyone that tries to disable the DP. Just stay as a huge moving ball and DP can out-dps anybody no problem.
On February 05 2013 21:49 Sassback wrote: thanks for the guide, makes me wanna queue up right now and pick that death prophet!
when i see 'queue" i see a lol player here ! good guide ! btw, i just make a game where DP go soulring / manaboots / sitygan :/ this is NOT a good build. :D
since when is "queue" a LoL thing? o_O are we supposed to say "matchmaking"?
On February 06 2013 08:18 Firebolt145 wrote: No, you're meant to say 'find match' obviously. What kind of Dota player are you?
:'(
also you better be saving that 10k for some epic dota guide
Well, I just went to sleep at 9999 so it may have looked as though I was waiting on something, but I'm not really sentimental about these things. I am working on another guide but really busy atm to finish it.
On February 05 2013 00:55 aintz wrote: one of the worse heroes that can pub stomp because people are bad. a lot of people seem to want to hug the ghosts.
Yeah, I was playing DP the other day against a Bane, and during the teamfight he put me to sleep with my ult up. So basically I was sitting there taking no damage in the middle of the fight, while my ult was wrecking everyone else. Huge mistake by the bane sleeping a DP with ult up
This sounds situational, if they could have backed off I think it'd be a good move.
On February 07 2013 22:20 Lash- wrote: I tried both skill builds and in my opinion carrion lvl 3 and max withcraft is the better option
I think both builds are good, it's just different preferances. Similar to how some people like to go 3 level in the stun on Storm Spirit because that's all you need for the Remnant to hit. But there are others who just like to have the extra duration on the stun. Both being valid reasons and it depends on how the player plays the hero.
On February 07 2013 23:43 Unleashing wrote: I'd like to say that medallion is a decent pick-up for fun on prophet if you want to do a really quick rosh and 5-man with your team.
I would honestly try to avoid getting a medallion and let a different hero on the team get it. It has a lot of synergy with Death Prophet's ult but the -armor hurts a bit. So rather get it on a hero from your team that doesn't suffer as much from the -armor.
Also updated the OP with what some of the top western teams thinks about her viability.
Good guide, very helpful to those who are new to DP. Personally I think she is one of the more annoying heros in the game because of how well her abilities work together.
Mediallion is so incredibly good on DP, it's not even real. It is a good choice in almost every circumstance. Also there is no downside since it provides you with the armor that gets substracted.
On February 07 2013 22:20 Lash- wrote: I tried both skill builds and in my opinion carrion lvl 3 and max withcraft is the better option
I think both builds are good, it's just different preferances. Similar to how some people like to go 3 level in the stun on Storm Spirit because that's all you need for the Remnant to hit. But there are others who just like to have the extra duration on the stun. Both being valid reasons and it depends on how the player plays the hero.
On February 07 2013 23:43 Unleashing wrote: I'd like to say that medallion is a decent pick-up for fun on prophet if you want to do a really quick rosh and 5-man with your team.
I would honestly try to avoid getting a medallion and let a different hero on the team get it. It has a lot of synergy with Death Prophet's ult but the -armor hurts a bit. So rather get it on a hero from your team that doesn't suffer as much from the -armor.
Also updated the OP with what some of the top western teams thinks about her viability.
Using the active gives a net result of 0 armor, and when you aren't using it MoC gives you 6 armor, it's not that bad on her
I usually have a support who buys it on the team. As I said, it's not bad on her, but I would still try to avoid getting it on her. Because it is a very slot-ineffective item and it's one of the good easy-to-get support items and the supports will be able to use it for you in teamfights.
I think you are really underestimating the value of Medallion, also the supports can't determine which target you rightclick with your ult so it is a lot more efficent to buy it youself.
I just tried to create some evidence using Medallion in my last game, for people who are really interested check the match ID and see how targets with Medallion on them melt compared to the experience you made without it.
On February 08 2013 05:48 FancYCaT wrote: I think you are really underestimating the value of Medallion, also the supports can't determine which target you rightclick with your ult so it is a lot more efficent to buy it youself.
I just tried to create some evidence using Medallion in my last game, for people who are really interested check the match ID and see how targets with Medallion on them melt compared to the experience you made without it.
It's not a bragpost, the screen was made by my friend who played with me cause he was so proud of beating Dendi. I just felt like sharing it cause the game demonstrates the power of Medallion really really well.
Also no matter how good the communication with your supports is, you might actually have to change the target every 7 seconds depending on the situation. Not even the best support will be able to perfectly use Medallion. I kinda agree with firebolt that the slot is the only real downside. Another thing that can have a lot of impact that some players will misjudge situations and expect lesser damage from exorcism, which can lead to a quick death if Krobelus has a Medallion.
On February 06 2013 08:18 Firebolt145 wrote: No, you're meant to say 'find match' obviously. What kind of Dota player are you?
:'(
also you better be saving that 10k for some epic dota guide
Well, I just went to sleep at 9999 so it may have looked as though I was waiting on something, but I'm not really sentimental about these things. I am working on another guide but really busy atm to finish it.
On February 06 2013 08:18 Firebolt145 wrote: No, you're meant to say 'find match' obviously. What kind of Dota player are you?
:'(
also you better be saving that 10k for some epic dota guide
Well, I just went to sleep at 9999 so it may have looked as though I was waiting on something, but I'm not really sentimental about these things. I am working on another guide but really busy atm to finish it.
meepo guide inc
Heh, no. Maybe someday. Though I am getting more respect meepo bans than respect invoker bans now. Buff invoker pls icefrog
I don't think that going for excessive speed in the mid game is such a good build it seems to me that this build is constructed to be effective on pub stomps as opposed to real games. It doesn't really give an explanation for the speed build and when to use it. If you are going for a speed build you are aiming to run down heroes after the team fight or have the change to run away. I think it's much better to rely upon your teammates to slow or stun enemies on the run. Krobulus is best when she is difficult to target down but with her ulti on difficult to ignore.
On February 18 2013 01:40 archonOOid wrote: I don't think that going for excessive speed in the mid game is such a good build it seems to me that this build is constructed to be effective on pub stomps as opposed to real games. It doesn't really give an explanation for the speed build and when to use it. If you are going for a speed build you are aiming to run down heroes after the team fight or have the change to run away. I think it's much better to rely upon your teammates to slow or stun enemies on the run. Krobulus is best when she is difficult to target down but with her ulti on difficult to ignore.
The movement speed is mainly for positioning and chasing down targets. Feel free to try out the build. As I have written in the guide, there are more ways to make you hard to kill than just stacking hp/armor. Even though Eul's gives 0 hp it still is really annoying for people to focus you down because of it. Either they sit and do nothing for 3seconds while you still do high dps and your teammates focus them down. Or they are forced to switch targets.
The "midgame item build" is supposed to be achieved around 18min. That's my timing for it. But you can get it earlier if you are better than me.
I.E: My Treads + Bottle + Magic Wand + Orchid timing for storm was 18min as well. But Fnatic.Era got it at 15min almost every single game.
As for the pubstomp part, I linked replays from both an inhouse and a scrim if you want to check them out. It's not made for pubstomping.
In my games getting it around/pre 18th minute required some kills, even with near perfect farm mid you won't get those items so fast without kills/assists. That or someone stacking jungle.
But I really like these items, had awesome games with DP so far by following this guide.
On February 19 2013 02:46 Andr3 wrote: In my games getting it around/pre 18th minute required some kills, even with near perfect farm mid you won't get those items so fast without kills/assists. That or someone stacking jungle.
But I really like these items, had awesome games with DP so far by following this guide.
Yeah by 18min you should have had some kills and/or assists and/or towers. Unless the game is very passive where you can just farm lane and the 2 camps close to mid (easy and hard camp)
But you can still achieve it consistantly around 18min which is the point. Doesn't matter how you get the gold as long as you get it.
Also nice to see so many people enjoying the build and having success with it ^_^
Followed this guide for two games and went 14-4-7 and 15 / 4 / 17, best part was that (at least I think) I had great presence and influence in both games. Especially in the 2nd game I feel like I was the main reason we won because I kept us in it till the hard carries were strong enough to close the game out. This is not to brag but to give props, thanks for the guide, made a huge improvement in my DP play. Only negative is I dont think I hit your 18 min timing (although maybe pauses messed it up, + im not too hot at LH so I can work on that anyway) Also agree with posters above, MS feels great and fun, and euls is just great
On February 19 2013 13:05 Enzymatic wrote: I don't necessarily agree with your stance and opinion of Bloodstone on her, but none the less, this is a great guide.
I have played alot of games with a krob playing this build. It is a good way to let your carry farm while you force enemy team to stop 4 players, that often leaves the carry farming so he can get his farm for late game. Its a better build for ganking other lanes because DP is missing the mobility so it really helps getting high MS and at the same time you have the items to survive and maximize you damage.
On February 19 2013 13:05 Enzymatic wrote: I don't necessarily agree with your stance and opinion of Bloodstone on her, but none the less, this is a great guide.
Mind elaborating a bit? I feel like my points are pretty straight forward and want to hear what points you disagree with / other things I didn't consider.
On March 13 2013 16:37 TNO_ wrote: BS is not awful on DP but she's so much better with Phase Drums and BS is kind of a snowbally item.
I like Atos instead of Euls but that's my personal preference.
I explained what kind of item BS is and why it doesn't syngergize with DP. You say yourself it's kind of a snowbally item and DP is not a snowballer. The only synergy it has is the increase in health really. Bloodstone is like going Aghanim's scepter for DP, the item itself is useless for her but it does give a fair amount of hp. If you want hp there are more cost-effective ways to go about it.
Rod of Atos is good, but I don't think it fits this particular item build. Because you will end up with RoA + Euls + Sheepstick which is kinda overkill. Since you are also running at 500 movement speed you don't really need the slow to catch up. In this build I feel like Sheepstick does what RoA does but way better.
RoA is a good item on DP nontheless but you would have to do a different item build.
Still think Eul's is better than RoA though because being completely invulnerable in 2.5sec is amazing. No other item in the game can do that. It also has a nice CC + you can dodge stuns with it + all the good mana regen, I think Eul's is just way more flexible and all-around than RoA for a cheaper price.
On March 13 2013 16:37 TNO_ wrote: BS is not awful on DP but she's so much better with Phase Drums and BS is kind of a snowbally item.
I like Atos instead of Euls but that's my personal preference.
I explained what kind of item BS is and why it doesn't syngergize with DP. You say yourself it's kind of a snowbally item and DP is not a snowballer. The only synergy it has is the increase in health really. Bloodstone is like going Aghanim's scepter for DP, the item itself is useless for her but it does give a fair amount of hp. If you want hp there are more cost-effective ways to go about it.
Rod of Atos is good, but I don't think it fits this particular item build. Because you will end up with RoA + Euls + Sheepstick which is kinda overkill. Since you are also running at 500 movement speed you don't really need the slow to catch up. In this build I feel like Sheepstick does what RoA does but way better.
RoA is a good item on DP nontheless but you would have to do a different item build.
Still think Eul's is better than RoA though because being completely invulnerable in 2.5sec is amazing. No other item in the game can do that. It also has a nice CC + you can dodge stuns with it + all the good mana regen, I think Eul's is just way more flexible and all-around than RoA for a cheaper price.
You don't have to explain everything all over again, there's no need to be defensive. I just mentioned Atos is good and by no means I was shooting down your build or whatever. Phase Drum Euls has always been a staple build on Krob.
Given your reaction, I'd say beware not to be too rigid with your reasoning about builds and DOTA in general, say sometimes going BS instead of Drum Euls can win you the game 'cause it's a lot harder to deal with if you are ahead. No idea why you think DP can't snowball, she's quite strong early on and she peaks pretty early, and you seem to think BS only gives you HP which is horribly wrong regardless of how good / bad the item actually is.
Atos' slow allows you to isolate and kill targets with your ultimate, land silences reliably, it gives you health which is less conditional than Eul's active. It's a more aggressive item for team-fighting, doing a direct comparison with Eul's is pointless because they are different items that exploit different aspects of the hero.
Going for cost efficient stuff like Phase Drum is good but that doesn't mean you should stop being flexible with your builds and not seize the opportunity to go for bigger items.
I think the heal of bloodstone is being a bit overlooked in this thread. The point of tanking up on Death Prophet is that she's a high priority target--the enemy team should try to focus you and you want to make it harder (or take longer) for them to do so. In this way, the heal on bloodstone is kind of effective--you'll punish them even more for focusing you if they do manage to kill you. Maybe not in an ideal composition, but if you have other high priority carries on your team, the heal from bloodstone could be very good. The other side is that if they aren't targeting you because of the bloodstone's hp/heal/lessened death penalty, you get to make use of the mana regen granted by it.
I don't think it's a particularly good item on her, but I think it has its place.
I've never not gotten a bloodstone on krob...I guess I have to try this build out since you all say it's so good. I hate eul's though. And 5675 + 2700 to get the same mana regen as 5050 (as you describe it) is kinda lame; I find that the earlier higher regen is better for how I play. If she's not a snowball hero, then I'm doing something wrong cuz I snowball hard with her + Show Spoiler +
I also like not being affected by AM's mana burn and ult + kotl's mana leak once I get enough charges
Deso + exorcism works well against base towers and rax if no one else buys one. Medallion for the same reason but for heroes
On March 15 2013 06:45 xsevR wrote: I think the heal of bloodstone is being a bit overlooked in this thread. The point of tanking up on Death Prophet is that she's a high priority target--the enemy team should try to focus you and you want to make it harder (or take longer) for them to do so. In this way, the heal on bloodstone is kind of effective--you'll punish them even more for focusing you if they do manage to kill you. Maybe not in an ideal composition, but if you have other high priority carries on your team, the heal from bloodstone could be very good. The other side is that if they aren't targeting you because of the bloodstone's hp/heal/lessened death penalty, you get to make use of the mana regen granted by it.
I don't think it's a particularly good item on her, but I think it has its place.
The heal is overlooked because I don't think dying should be a part of your strategy to heal your teammates. ("And then I transition into losing my whole base" - Day9. Similar story) Rather stay alive and help your carries kill than to die and then heal them.
To the above poster Don't really understand your math there. Where does the 5.6k comes from? Euls gives as much mana regen as Bloodstone. Drums and Euls also makes you harder to kill than bloodstone if you use it wisely. Makes you a lot more evasive + a 2.5sec complete invulnerability (no other item has this function) + you can use Euls aggressive as a CC + you can now interrupt TPs with Euls.
Anyway to explain why Death Prophet is not a snowballer:
She needs a lot of items to survive, but she doesn't scale very well with items damagewise. She can only stay longer in fights to do more damage. Carries / heroes like Storm snowball harder because they scale very well with items. Their damage / survivability increases by a lot for every item they get. A snowballer doesn't scale off in the lategame as Krob does (because a lot of her dps comes from her ulti)
Might be a vague explaination so here's another comparison.
Every hero in the game can carry. If you give Crystal maider AC, Lifesteal, MKB, Crit, Boots and Heart she is going to do a lot of auto-attacking damage. But is the hero made to carry? That's the difference imo.
Every hero in the game gets stronger with items ("snowballing"). But because Krob can't solo-kill very well she can't snowball as hard as the real "snowball-powerhouses" do. That's why I don't consider her a snowballer. Once again, you could snowball with Crystal maiden, but I still don't consider her a snowballer.
Maybe I misread it; I thought you said sheep + eul's = bloodstone as far as mana regen. I know where eul's is good, I personally don't like having it, though.
That explanation about snowballing makes more sense.
eul is pretty much a must have for this build. without it you move slower, you have no mana regen, you cant rofl cyclone dodge stuns while your ghosts eat everyone.
On March 18 2013 07:40 MSGHero wrote: Maybe I misread it; I thought you said sheep + eul's = bloodstone as far as mana regen. I know where eul's is good, I personally don't like having it, though.
That explanation about snowballing makes more sense.
Yeah I think you misunderstood my point.
My point was that one of the things that makes Bloodstone a good item is the constant increase in mana regen with more charges. Really good for heroes that can run out of mana even at the 90min mark (such as Tinker or Storm Spirit).
But that whole strength is nullified by the fact that with Euls + Sheepstick it's literally impossible to run OOM. So you don't need the extra mana regen from the charges you would have gotten. Which means they are pointless.
Wasn't a direct comparison between Euls + Sheep vs Bloodstone. Was more of a "this is what makes bloodstone good" and "unfortunaly it is completely wasted if you get Euls + Sheep" (which imo are two of the strongest items Krob can get).
I've started playing Krob a lot more again lately and am loving this build. Krob's always been one of my best solo mid heroes (which doesn't mean much as I rarely play solo mid) and this whole speedy build is a lot more fun than the slow tanky build I used to play with.
Eul's is such an awesome item, cyclone self for 2.5 sec of free ghosts hitting everyone. Or use the cyclone to float an enemy to stall the enemy and get spell cooldowns just in time for me to kill them.
i like bloodstone a lot. that's cuz soul booster is an insanely multipurpose item at 3300 gold. bloodstone's revive is great for late game, and yeah.
it depends how you play DP i guess. these days there's a lot of players that abuse her speed and add to it with more manueverability items -- but i prefer to play her the olddd school way, as a mass-aggro drawing tank. This build has worked since.. at least 6.27b, and probably before. And this was before her ulti got super buffed and now has no damage cap.
I also max her passive first. sounds retarded i know but with basilus and level 1 swarm (at reduced mana cost), you're not as dependent on mana items. And, since your swarm does such little damage, there's no issue with using it to help you last hit.
item build: starting: basilus and tango first item: boots if farming bad, point booster if farming good first major item: soul booster in - between first and second items: strength treads, magic wand, maybe a bracer. second major item: situational, depends on matchup. If they're stun heavy, go bkb. if not, go blademail and either finish up your bloodstone or get a platemail. After these two major items it doesn't really matter what you go as long as you get the correct item to match the situation. I always go by the rule that what you buy doesn't matter as much as when you buy it and who you buy it against.
in terms of playstyle, early game i use her swarm kinda like how zeus would use his arc lightning. I play passive and try to farm as much as possible early on -- of course, i am soloing. I believe DP is a horrible lane partner and believe the only way to play her well is to have her solo.
I think it's really important to think of her ultimate as a super buffed up version of diabolic edict.
Registered just to say how helpful I've found this guide.
I do kind of always find myself wanting to skip the phase boots and just go straight to boots of travel after my eul's and drums. It's only an 1100 gp difference between the two (not even counting any tp scrolls you hopefully won't have to buy) and with them and her passive DP's already faster than 90% of the rest of the cast anyways.
On April 18 2013 16:37 lostsomething wrote: Registered just to say how helpful I've found this guide.
I do kind of always find myself wanting to skip the phase boots and just go straight to boots of travel after my eul's and drums. It's only an 1100 gp difference between the two (not even counting any tp scrolls you hopefully won't have to buy) and with them and her passive DP's already faster than 90% of the rest of the cast anyways.
I find the early phase boots to be really useful for last hitting / harassing. You can deny a lot easier with that first blades of attack, and the extra speed boost to reach runes is also super useful
I agree on the Phase boots parts, mid is really hard to play for Krobelus against some enemies, and I often go right into Phase boots after bottle, if they are very mobile, or hit harder then I do (which is the case for most mid opponents actually). This way i can do better in both last hitting / denying and rune control.
Nice guide. I prefer Shiva's Guard over Eye of Skadi though, as the Arctic Blast usually is enough to catch up to melee heroes and the massive 15 armor and 30% attack speed slow helps both vs ranged and melee heroes. Also, it's ~1000 gold cheaper.
On April 19 2013 09:27 VoirDire wrote: Nice guide. I prefer Shiva's Guard over Eye of Skadi though, as the Arctic Blast usually is enough to catch up to melee heroes and the massive 15 armor and 30% attack speed slow helps both vs ranged and melee heroes. Also, it's ~1000 gold cheaper.
except it doesnt give you a single point of hp. and with this build you kinda want something to boost your hp a bit.
A great guide, I will have to try it out. One thing that I think most people don't know about (or underrate) is the benefits of buying small items early. I have started going Eul's first on a lot of solo mid INTs because the early Sobi mask can really make a difference. I will usually try to get it after bottle and boots, which means right around where mana becomes a big issue as you want to spam Swarm, you get an extra mana per second.
Great guide. I don't know why but I really hate Phase boots as a whole (not just on Krob). I really prefer the Arcane Boots, helps with the swarm spam, and also helps pushes with the team.
As for the phase boots, I don't know why but I always think the other boots choices are better with most heroes.
On April 19 2013 00:44 Velr wrote: just tryed it... It's fun but I rather stay "more tanky".
I play mostly pure pubs and while i see why this is strong, it also completly shuts down your ability to snowball
This guides build is one of the tankiest I can imagine for Krob. Also you snowball super hard if you get the items quick. If you can get to the heart or skadi in a reasonable time.. there is no harder snowball for Krob..
On April 19 2013 00:44 Velr wrote: just tryed it... It's fun but I rather stay "more tanky".
I play mostly pure pubs and while i see why this is strong, it also completly shuts down your ability to snowball
This guides build is one of the tankiest I can imagine for Krob. Also you snowball super hard if you get the items quick. If you can get to the heart or skadi in a reasonable time.. there is no harder snowball for Krob..
Yeah I don't understand how this build would prevent you from snowballing, with eul scepter you already have enough mana regen and you'll have a much bigger impact in teamfights that with an early bloodstone (eul yourself or a high priority target). Then with the money from these early engagement you can snowball into an early sheepstick + skadi/heart.
On April 20 2013 04:25 redsoxman wrote: A great guide, I will have to try it out. One thing that I think most people don't know about (or underrate) is the benefits of buying small items early. I have started going Eul's first on a lot of solo mid INTs because the early Sobi mask can really make a difference. I will usually try to get it after bottle and boots, which means right around where mana becomes a big issue as you want to spam Swarm, you get an extra mana per second.
I wanna go fast!
this is a fair point, and even though I think you should get bottle first, phase boots second and then work on your drums, it is not a bad idea to get the sobi mask right after bottle, and finish euls after drums e.g. The extra regen really helps!
Prefer playing DP as a support hero, don't let the game revolve around her. Let her take the back-seat role, not on mid solo, and she'll be imbalanced in no time.
If you put all your focus on buffing her up, the opponents will make sure she gets shut down. But put her in a tri-lane and I guarantee they'll ignore her most of the time, at which point she is the most effective.
If DP isn't shut down in team fights, it's over for the opposition.
On April 23 2013 16:07 Mr.Babo wrote: Prefer playing DP as a support hero, don't let the game revolve around her. Let her take the back-seat role, not on mid solo, and she'll be imbalanced in no time.
If you put all your focus on buffing her up, the opponents will make sure she gets shut down. But put her in a tri-lane and I guarantee they'll ignore her most of the time, at which point she is the most effective.
If DP isn't shut down in team fights, it's over for the opposition.
What? DP contributes absolutely nothing to a trilane. She needs both farm and levels, has no stun / slow, and has very little nuking power without the proper mana regen / levels....
On April 23 2013 16:07 Mr.Babo wrote: Prefer playing DP as a support hero, don't let the game revolve around her. Let her take the back-seat role, not on mid solo, and she'll be imbalanced in no time.
If you put all your focus on buffing her up, the opponents will make sure she gets shut down. But put her in a tri-lane and I guarantee they'll ignore her most of the time, at which point she is the most effective.
If DP isn't shut down in team fights, it's over for the opposition.
What? DP contributes absolutely nothing to a trilane. She needs both farm and levels, has no stun / slow, and has very little nuking power without the proper mana regen / levels....
This, the only thing which would make her useful to a trilane would be her massive pushing power, which only comes at level 6, which will be severely delayed in a trilane...
On April 19 2013 09:27 VoirDire wrote: Nice guide. I prefer Shiva's Guard over Eye of Skadi though, as the Arctic Blast usually is enough to catch up to melee heroes and the massive 15 armor and 30% attack speed slow helps both vs ranged and melee heroes. Also, it's ~1000 gold cheaper.
except it doesnt give you a single point of hp. and with this build you kinda want something to boost your hp a bit.
15 armor is 90% EHP increase and 30% slow is 42% increase, combined it's 170% more EHP (vs physical), which is a lot more than skadi's flat HP increase. Atleast vs physical damage.
i don't like the mkb at all, the comparison to qop and storm spirit to justify this item is silly. i'm not sure if her attack animation is worse than storm's (it's worse than qop's for sure), but the projectile speed is a joke. don't buy right click items for krobelus, even in very late game they're just not worth it. her swarm and ult are enough damage to make sure she can't be ignored. ur much better off stacking on armor and hp than trying to improve a terrible right click. skadi's mediocre at best for the same reason, the agility is pretty much wasted and the orb effect isn't as good as it is on other heroes + you won't get lifesteal on her so you can't take advantage of ranged skadi+lifesteal effect stack either. if you absolutely have enough hp and armor, just get some utility like a hex and bkb.
If you actually followed the guide it always gets Sheep before mkb. I listed a lot of items, mbk is a good item if your team just needs raw damage. Also if you are unkillable and want people to target you what's the point in getting a bkb?
My point with Skadi was that it destroys low-mobility melee carries. The only weakness N'aix has is his mobility, and he has rage to help with that a bit. Venomancer's gale or SD's ult destroys N'aix. Skadi does the exact same thing, 30% constant slow + 20% slower attack speed is pretty huge. They need to hit stuff to survive. If they don't, they just fall over.. It abuses the weakness of the hero harder than any other item in the game. Teamfights is about keeping your supports alive. Supports wins fights, not the carries. If they die within a N'aix rage because you couldn't help them means you will often times lose the entire fight. Sheepstick helps after the rage, got to make sure they live through it, which Skadi does. If they live, you will often times win the fight.
"But DrPandaPhD, Skadi doesn't help much if Naix focuses you."
If he does focus you, you can Eul's out of the slow and just run away. Or just run away with a ghost scepter. He can't focus you, you are way too untouchable at that point. And if he doesn't focus you, you can focus him with the Skadi debuff. I don't build Skadi because it's an amazing item for DP (it's not). I build it because it's an amazing item vs N'aix / Sven.
Do you ever get a naked plate mail before the guinsoos? I find against a heavy physical lineup, it does wonders to my survivability. At that point, I either choose to complete shivas or guinsoo depending on which one is more crucial.
On May 20 2013 19:54 theLiminator wrote: Do you ever get a naked plate mail before the guinsoos? I find against a heavy physical lineup, it does wonders to my survivability. At that point, I either choose to complete shivas or guinsoo depending on which one is more crucial.
I usually go ghost scepter vs physical heavy lineups. But I can definitely see plate mail -> something else later being good. My item build is just a general guideline. Tweaking it depending on the match is the way to go.
Clearly this guide is godlike, because when i use it I am good enough to start nearly every game at least 6-1, yet bad enough that once when I tried to use the eul scepter I dropped it and it was stolen by a shadow blade viper.
I love how everyone underestimates dp 1v1. The cooldown on bats is so short that you can get 2 of them off before the opponent's skill is off of cooldown, and then a third one to kill them before they can run back to the tower.
On April 23 2013 21:19 Kabras wrote: i don't like the mkb at all, the comparison to qop and storm spirit to justify this item is silly. i'm not sure if her attack animation is worse than storm's (it's worse than qop's for sure), but the projectile speed is a joke. don't buy right click items for krobelus, even in very late game they're just not worth it. her swarm and ult are enough damage to make sure she can't be ignored. ur much better off stacking on armor and hp than trying to improve a terrible right click. skadi's mediocre at best for the same reason, the agility is pretty much wasted and the orb effect isn't as good as it is on other heroes + you won't get lifesteal on her so you can't take advantage of ranged skadi+lifesteal effect stack either. if you absolutely have enough hp and armor, just get some utility like a hex and bkb.
I never would get Skadi or MKB on her either...
You want Damage? Go AC. You want Damage and are allready damn Tanky? Go Radiance. You like Ghosts? Go Refresher
On April 19 2013 00:44 Velr wrote: just tryed it... It's fun but I rather stay "more tanky".
I play mostly pure pubs and while i see why this is strong, it also completly shuts down your ability to snowball
This guides build is one of the tankiest I can imagine for Krob. Also you snowball super hard if you get the items quick. If you can get to the heart or skadi in a reasonable time.. there is no harder snowball for Krob..
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Strongest Snowball is this: Start with Boots/1 Healing Salve/1 Branche (puts you at exactly 0 Gold) --> Don't do this if you expect a scary matchup (or are drunk, really, don't... ).
Rush Arcaines ---> You should have them by lvl 5/6 normally --> Spam your opponent out of lane (if you didn't allready which you should have if he isn't bottlecrowing or getting every rune). Lvl 6 or 7 --> Go to Sidelanes and push/kill/whatever is possible (you'll probably never ever go "farming" again from here on, towers give more Gold anyway ). Get Voidstone asap (except when you really need HP against strong nukers --> Point Booster (or if there are allready multiple arcboots on your team, which is unlikely at this point). Now you can just spam your Carrion Swarm. This means that just about no hero can stand in a lane before you and if the enemy is not setting up a well coordinated defense they will lose towers (and therefore the snowball starts to roll).
From here just: Soul Booster --> Phaseboots --> Bloodstone --> Mek (if no one has it yet) or "casual" Platemail (basically you just NEED an armor item after the Bloodstone).. From here... Shivas/Heart/AC... All fine.
Spam your opponent out of lane (if you didn't allready which you should have if he isn't bottlecrowing or getting every rune).
Without a bottle or any form of mana reg? Literally impossible to spam your opponent out of lane unless he forgot to buy any form of regen whatsoever, you have mana for like 3 swarms. At level 1 it wouldn't be close enough to get him out of lane. At level 3 he probably will have bottle so also nowhere close enough to get him out of lane. It's actually the opposite. Without a bottle and only 1 salve it's very likely it's you who are going to be spammed out of lane.
Mana boots alone is not enough to sustain krob's spell-spam...
Bloodstone is bad for Krob. If you disagree feel free to actually put arguments for it. I have already said mine.
So you are telling me to go push / gank sidelanes with only mana boots. Assuming I followed your build. No other items whatsoever?
And finally, no, the hardest snowballing build on Krob would be: Phase + Bottle + Wand -> Skadi -> AC -> Heart -> Sheep. But that's greedy as fck and would most likely not work unless you get safelane and the protection a hardcarry would. My build is a lot more all-around and far from greedy since most items have easy build-ups and it will work in all cases.
Pubs are for sure the place to show how strong your build is. Singsing had 1300 gpm with Phase MoM Luna and not skilling beam/ult. Clearly the way to play the hero.
Spam your opponent out of lane (if you didn't allready which you should have if he isn't bottlecrowing or getting every rune).
Without a bottle or any form of mana reg? Literally impossible to spam your opponent out of lane unless he forgot to buy any form of regen whatsoever, you have mana for like 3 swarms. At level 1 it wouldn't be close enough to get him out of lane. At level 3 he probably will have bottle so also nowhere close enough to get him out of lane. It's actually the opposite. Without a bottle and only 1 salve it's very likely it's you who are going to be spammed out of lane.
You're reading his post incorrectly. He's saying you should rush arcanes and THEN spam the opponent out of lane. If you LH well and start with boots, you should have zero problem spamming your opponent out at that point unless he's bottlecrowing, because it will be really early. Opponent will have bottle though, but that's why he said "if opponent is not bottle crowing/getting every rune".
Spam your opponent out of lane (if you didn't allready which you should have if he isn't bottlecrowing or getting every rune).
Without a bottle or any form of mana reg? Literally impossible to spam your opponent out of lane unless he forgot to buy any form of regen whatsoever, you have mana for like 3 swarms. At level 1 it wouldn't be close enough to get him out of lane. At level 3 he probably will have bottle so also nowhere close enough to get him out of lane. It's actually the opposite. Without a bottle and only 1 salve it's very likely it's you who are going to be spammed out of lane.
You're reading his post incorrectly. He's saying you should rush arcanes and THEN spam the opponent out of lane. If you LH well and start with boots, you should have zero problem spamming your opponent out at that point unless he's bottlecrowing, because it will be really early. Opponent will have bottle though, but that's why he said "if opponent is not bottle crowing/getting every rune".
Rush Arcaines ---> You should have them by lvl 5/6 normally --> Spam your opponent out of lane (if you didn't allready which you should have if he isn't bottlecrowing or getting every rune).
Actually he said that if you haven't already spammed him out of lane (which I say is impossible) then you should be able to do it now. And even then, with mana boots only, you can't spam someone out of a lane. Mana boots gives 110 mana. Level 3 swarm cost 130. And it has a 55second cooldown. That is not going to be enough to spam an opponent out of a lane.
Spam your opponent out of lane (if you didn't allready which you should have if he isn't bottlecrowing or getting every rune).
Without a bottle or any form of mana reg? Literally impossible to spam your opponent out of lane unless he forgot to buy any form of regen whatsoever, you have mana for like 3 swarms. At level 1 it wouldn't be close enough to get him out of lane. At level 3 he probably will have bottle so also nowhere close enough to get him out of lane. It's actually the opposite. Without a bottle and only 1 salve it's very likely it's you who are going to be spammed out of lane.
You're reading his post incorrectly. He's saying you should rush arcanes and THEN spam the opponent out of lane. If you LH well and start with boots, you should have zero problem spamming your opponent out at that point unless he's bottlecrowing, because it will be really early. Opponent will have bottle though, but that's why he said "if opponent is not bottle crowing/getting every rune".
Rush Arcaines ---> You should have them by lvl 5/6 normally --> Spam your opponent out of lane (if you didn't allready which you should have if he isn't bottlecrowing or getting every rune).
Actually he said that if you haven't already spammed him out of lane (which I say is impossible) then you should be able to do it now. And even then, with mana boots only, you can't spam someone out of a lane. Mana boots gives 110 mana. Level 3 swarm cost 130. And it has a 55second cooldown. That is not going to be enough to spam an opponent out of a lane.
Yeah you're right, even if you go 2 points in whichcraft crypt swarm is still 125 mana, the math does not add up.
"Spamming him out of lane": Autoattack him whenever possible (you got boots first and have very good range, so you should look pretty decent when doing hit and run)... You don't trade, you just hit him whenever possible. You can't really compete for lasthits anyway... Well, maybe if you lane against Necrolyte or Zeus... Obviously there are a some heroes that this does not work that good against (but you should not go boots first against these or then just play like a coward )...
Doesn't matter much in the long run anyway as long as you don't fuck up too hard .
Mana boots alone is not enough to sustain krob's spell-spam... Bloodstone is bad for Krob. If you disagree feel free to actually put arguments for it. I have already said mine.
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Ok.. First of all this is for sure personal taste but here i go at my try to save Bloodstones honour :D:
Where i have an issue is during buildup: 1: Arcane Boots vs Phaseboots/Bottle --> Arcane allow (very) early teampushes Phaseboots alllow you... I don't know, i guess when you get a good rune at the right time Phase/Bottle is very decent/superiour too, if not, it's worse (and more expensive). The Manaboost from early arcane actually helps when going to a sidelane.
2: Arcane Boots + Voidstone vs Phase/Sobimask/Voidstone = I can spam now, you still lack the manapool to even really use your 150% regen (or do you go Void + Bracer or whatever?).
3: Arcane Boots + Voidstone + Pointbooster ---> I can spam now and i am tanky... Your... Buying the 10 int stick and now finally have Mana to actually use your stuff and are still rune dependant?
4: Phaseboots + Voidstone + Soulbooster (5525 Gold?) vs Phase/Bottle/Euls/Bracer (5425 Gold?) -->... I'm frigging tanky with a big ass manapool and faster than most heroes, your way faster than most heroes and have cyclone? Sorry, I don't see Cyclone "winning" this fight...
5: Bloodstone/Phaseboots (6400?) vs Phase/Bottle/Euls/Drums (6650) --> I'm fucking tanky with tons of HP/Mana-Regen while still being fater than most other heroes. Your now friggin fast (which is fun and strong) and have cyclone, your manareg is "ok", your livereg is utter shit and your general tankiness is utter shit while you sport drums, which someone else on your team might also would have built anyway.. AND you spent more money!
1. Phase is for lasthitting. It's strong and there is no way you can spam spells that much early game. Way more chasing power / escape early as well. Mobility early-game is extremely valueable because if you can outrun their supports you will often times survive. I go phase -> drums -> euls. A lot of pros agree that phase is the way to go, including the chinese player (now caster) 2009 in his guide.
2. Using 1 crypt swarm every minute is hardly spamming. Bottle + runecontrol / bottlecrowing allows for like 3swarms a minute.
Arcane boots + voidstone leaves you with what? 700 hp, low mobility, and you are going to teamfight? Don't really see the logic here. Unless you face people who are bad and they don't punish it whatsoever. You are way too squishy to even try to fight at this point.
3. With bottle I have way less mana issues than a mana boots rush. You can start using your spells way earlier. You said yourself you will get mana boots by lvl 5/6. Which means you had no mana regen up to that point, which means like 4 swarms total for the first 5minutes. And after that you can use 1 swarm every minute... It also means you haven't had any hp regen except for a salve which the other mid should punish if he's even a mediocre mid. Way too easy punish-able build. Not going bottle at all is straight up suicide vs decent opponents.
4. As I talked in the original post, there are more ways to become hard to kill than just straight up stacking health. Eul's makes you >invulnerable<. You can also use it to dodge abilites. And you don't die if they can't even touch you due to your movement speed. Way easier positioning and harder to focus down. Cyclone can also be used to let your teammates catch up in a chase, cancel TPs since Krob doesn't have an interrupt and as a general CC. It can also be used to dispel debuffs such as orchid. Eul's is a must have item basically. It gives her everything she need.
5. Bloodstone phase Krob is easier to focus down. To give you a perspective. It's easier to kill a pudge with 4000 hp than an anti-mage with 2000 or a puck with level 4 phase + blink + forcestaff with 1300hp. Stacking hp is not the only way to survive in this game. Mobility is another. And how is my mana regen "ok" and you have "tons of mana-regen" when my build has more? Eul's makes you invulnerable. Making them either have to change target or sit there and wait for 2.5 seconds and accomplishing nothing when your ghosts are still doing full dmg + your teammates.
Another perspective is that if the enemy team tries to smoke gank you with let's say Lina+Sand king, and you don't have sentries. When they get close enough for you to reveal them and you have 500 movement speed it's still going to be hard for them to catch you. But if you have 400 movespeed you might end up getting stunned and once you are caught you are dead. Doesn't matter if you have 500 hp more. Once again, stacking hp is not the only way to survive.
And since my build is going Heart after Drums + Euls it gives you all the hp regen you could ask for.
I would 1vs1 you with any mid hero vs your krob just to make you realize how easily punished that build is. One salve through level 1-7? No way any decent mid player is going to let you get away with that, no matter hero. Or if you have a team and want to play a scrim and pick krob and choose what midhero we should have then I'd be up for that as well.
Feel free to actually try the build. I didn't make it because it's "fun to be fast". I made it because it's more reliable and makes Krob stronger and harder to kill than a bloodstone build. I've tried a lot of different builds for her and this is the one I found to be the strongest, most reliable and hardest to punish.
PM me / write here if you want to 1v1 / scrim. It's not an ego-contest, it's just to show how vulnerable that build is. It's like going 5 hatcheries 70 drones before spawning pool in SC2. It might be strong if left uncontested for 40minutes. But too easy to punish by decent opponents.
I know that it's vunerable and i tryed your built, i just felt constantly manastarfed .
Will try it again for sure.. As you said, it's not an ego contest ^^. BUT i think your being a bit to harsh on Bloodstone which, if you get it early, is just awesome on her
Just tryed it... But I don't know, can't judge it until a game is actually close... Being fast for sure is fun tho
great portion on bloodstone! I have been going that but now that you break it down, what a useless item! I'll start rushing the sheep insteak to get that extra mana, then build tanky! Personally i enjoy AC, let them feel the power of the ULT!
As the fellow stated earlier, Arcane boots to voidstone/pointbooster. It is very easy to get early game, when your ult comes up try to take a tower. Do not buy another energy booster for your bloodstone, when you have pers, point and vit dissasemble your boots and you have bloodstone. It makes early game easy with arcanes, you get a very early bloodstone - you can survive and spam, and you have then means to get easy income to make travs.
It is really easy to roll with korb, and bloodstone has always been useful to me. I know I do not plan on dying and if I do I do not get my ult back, that is not the reason I go bloodstone on korb. I go bloodstone because it is an easy build progression, you can get it very early and it is very useful.
On August 14 2013 13:30 burlow wrote: I go bloodstone because it is an easy build progression, you can get it very early
Hardly easier than phase boots/drums/Euls.
and it is very useful.
But this part requires more backing. The OP provided several points as to why Bloodstone is massively overrated and isn't as useful as everyone thinks it is. Why do you you think it's useful?
First arcane boots are a better team item than phase, if it is the first thing you farm on korb, you should have it by the time you are lvl 6. At level 6 take your ult, go to a side lane and take a tower, you have your ult to dps the tower (its low level but will still bring it down) you have arcane boots to give your allies mana in case they try to defend, you may easily get a kill or assist in the process.
Tower is now down, you will have money for a void stone. Farm a couple lanes mid, get your ult back up, get WC a couple levels higher. When ult is up try to take another tower, one again arcane boots will help the team and you should easily have two of their tier 1 downs down when you are level 11. Two towers + korbs ability to farm with swarm you can have pers + point booster, without a problem. Use the energy booster from your arcane boots (disassemble) to make your bloodstone when you have the money for a vit booster. This is a very easy way to get a bloodstone, dare I say easier than phase/drums/euls.
Now you have bloodstone, and dont have arcane (you used your energy booster to make your stone), travs is your next item. You have survivablity and mana regen, now you get an items with greater ms than phase and get a global presence.
for the value boots + bloodstone is 325 gold less than phase, euls, and drums. With bloodstone you will get over 300 hp more than you will from drums and you will not run out of mana.
The ability to disassemble arcane boots is the reason to go bloodstone. There is no reason to have phase boots on korb after you can spam spells, I think anybody on this forum will agree with that. Euls is nice for mana and MS, having bloodstone will solve mana problems and travs are the best shoes for korb. There is no wasted items going bloodstone the manner I stated, it is very simple to do, and helps you to be an early game presence with arcane boots.
Now why is bloodstone massively overrated? Is it because I cannot immediately ult on respawn? That is not the reason I am going bloodstone - it is an easy item build progression and should be made in the early - mid game when korb is a very strong hero.
If I read your post and replaced all the names of Bloodstone components with the names of Drum and Euls components, it wouldn't strike me as very different. You already have the Bottle for your own regen and it is sufficient for early pushing. Yes you won't have Arcanes for your pushes on the side lanes but Arcanes are more of a sustained teamfight thing rather than a single push item.
Phase boots are important not just for the move speed but for the phase effect when chasing and escaping. Drums + Euls may not grant you as much HP as Bloodstone but they give you more move speed (than just Travels) as well as the Euls active, which is great for both self survivability as well as isolating enemies.
The global presence of Travels is the only thing advantage from your item progression but that's still blowing 2000 gold on a non-combat item.
Your concluding point about it having easy item build progression and made in the early-mid game still pales when compared to the easy item build progression and early-effectiveness of Phase + Drums + Euls.
On August 14 2013 14:32 burlow wrote: for the value boots + bloodstone is 325 gold less than phase, euls, and drums. With bloodstone you will get over 300 hp more than you will from drums and you will not run out of mana.
That's a shit comparison--phase/drums/euls gives you far more movespeed, better rune control in lane, better last hitting power / harass in lane, a disable or self disrupt in teamfights, more damage, and a useful teamfight aura. I would argue that in midgame teamfights, having the extra 100+ movement speed is FAR more beneficial for survivability than an extra 300 hp, not to mention most often you miss kills not because you didn't have enough mana but because you weren't in the right position to cast your spells.
On August 14 2013 14:32 burlow wrote: First arcane boots are a better team item than phase, if it is the first thing you farm on korb, you should have it by the time you are lvl 6. At level 6 take your ult, go to a side lane and take a tower, you have your ult to dps the tower (its low level but will still bring it down) you have arcane boots to give your allies mana in case they try to defend, you may easily get a kill or assist in the process.
Tower is now down, you will have money for a void stone. Farm a couple lanes mid, get your ult back up, get WC a couple levels higher. When ult is up try to take another tower, one again arcane boots will help the team and you should easily have two of their tier 1 downs down when you are level 11. Two towers + korbs ability to farm with swarm you can have pers + point booster, without a problem. Use the energy booster from your arcane boots (disassemble) to make your bloodstone when you have the money for a vit booster. This is a very easy way to get a bloodstone, dare I say easier than phase/drums/euls.
Now you have bloodstone, and dont have arcane (you used your energy booster to make your stone), travs is your next item. You have survivablity and mana regen, now you get an items with greater ms than phase and get a global presence.
for the value boots + bloodstone is 325 gold less than phase, euls, and drums. With bloodstone you will get over 300 hp more than you will from drums and you will not run out of mana.
The ability to disassemble arcane boots is the reason to go bloodstone. There is no reason to have phase boots on korb after you can spam spells, I think anybody on this forum will agree with that. Euls is nice for mana and MS, having bloodstone will solve mana problems and travs are the best shoes for korb. There is no wasted items going bloodstone the manner I stated, it is very simple to do, and helps you to be an early game presence with arcane boots.
Now why is bloodstone massively overrated? Is it because I cannot immediately ult on respawn? That is not the reason I am going bloodstone - it is an easy item build progression and should be made in the early - mid game when korb is a very strong hero.
Your arguement for bloodstone is simply "it's easy to build" without any justifications at all....basically you just made 2 wrong item choices at one go. It's like you just made a wrong choice, then you make another wrong choice yet again to try and cover up that first mistake instead of avoiding/learning from that mistake in the first place.
What's the mistakes? --> Arcane Boots into Bloodstone.
As to why it's wrong, it's been listed in this very guide itself. If your going Arcane into Bloodstone because you feel mana starved, your doing it wrong. Death Prophet with Bottle/Drums/Wand will have enough mana pool to do whatever she needs to do. The ending result is a very streamlined and effective prophet which is better than your build no matter how you swing it.
By the way, Arcanes give ~120 mana per minute. Why do you get them if you want to spam ? a voidstone first would give you more manareg for less gold (even if you don't give mana to allies, but that's once every ult, so it may not be worth it...).
On August 14 2013 14:32 burlow wrote: First arcane boots are a better team item than phase, if it is the first thing you farm on korb, you should have it by the time you are lvl 6. At level 6 take your ult, go to a side lane and take a tower, you have your ult to dps the tower (its low level but will still bring it down) you have arcane boots to give your allies mana in case they try to defend, you may easily get a kill or assist in the process.
Tower is now down, you will have money for a void stone. Farm a couple lanes mid, get your ult back up, get WC a couple levels higher. When ult is up try to take another tower, one again arcane boots will help the team and you should easily have two of their tier 1 downs down when you are level 11. Two towers + korbs ability to farm with swarm you can have pers + point booster, without a problem. Use the energy booster from your arcane boots (disassemble) to make your bloodstone when you have the money for a vit booster. This is a very easy way to get a bloodstone, dare I say easier than phase/drums/euls.
Now you have bloodstone, and dont have arcane (you used your energy booster to make your stone), travs is your next item. You have survivablity and mana regen, now you get an items with greater ms than phase and get a global presence.
for the value boots + bloodstone is 325 gold less than phase, euls, and drums. With bloodstone you will get over 300 hp more than you will from drums and you will not run out of mana.
The ability to disassemble arcane boots is the reason to go bloodstone. There is no reason to have phase boots on korb after you can spam spells, I think anybody on this forum will agree with that. Euls is nice for mana and MS, having bloodstone will solve mana problems and travs are the best shoes for korb. There is no wasted items going bloodstone the manner I stated, it is very simple to do, and helps you to be an early game presence with arcane boots.
Now why is bloodstone massively overrated? Is it because I cannot immediately ult on respawn? That is not the reason I am going bloodstone - it is an easy item build progression and should be made in the early - mid game when korb is a very strong hero.
This guide is to help people who have problems with DP / wants to learn a different way to play her. It's the way I play her and I have a lot of success with the build. I still think Bloodstone is bad on her for the reasons I've already pointed out.
A lot of people has disagreed with you so I guess "anybody" is wrong.
The ability to disassemble arcane boots is the reason to go bloodstone. There is no reason to have phase boots on korb after you can spam spells, I think anybody on this forum will agree with that.
In the end, some people have appreciated the guide and started to build the way I do. That's what I made the guide for. If you feel like I am THAT wrong, feel free to come play in the Teamliquid Inhouses and show me how to play DP. I am active and would appreciate to get different views on how to play the hero : )
This is taken from the inhouses / TMM so I guess the build is working for me?
Krob has become one of my favorite heroes since reading this guide, thanks tons. currently sitting at a respectable 58.5% winrate over 77 games, KDA 2.99. a few questions:
- in teamfights, do you ever eul their carries? most of the time i use it as i would a defensive Disruption. rush in with ghosts up (silencing is situational, as the enemy just might run away), tank for the team, and cyclone myself up. when i come back down, i phase to the back while right clicking ghosts and spamming swarm.
- how do you feel about DP not being picked once during the entirety of TI3? will she need more buffs (the 6.78 buffs were pretty nice btw), a shift in metagame, or both, in order to see a resurgence?
On August 16 2013 04:47 woebegone wrote: - in teamfights, do you ever eul their carries? most of the time i use it as i would a defensive Disruption. rush in with ghosts up (silencing is situational, as the enemy just might run away), tank for the team, and cyclone myself up. when i come back down, i phase to the back while right clicking ghosts and spamming swarm.
Generally my gameplan for teamfights is to silence the supports/casters and euls either whoever the silence doesn't catch or euls the person with the most dps (usually the carry). As for defensive euls usage, I would only do it to either disjoint a stun or survive for the rest of your team to clean up (i.e. you're very close to dying). Your ghosts don't do enough dps to merit rushing into the middle of the enemy team, stay in the back lines and keep spamming crypt swarm.
On August 16 2013 04:47 woebegone wrote: - how do you feel about DP not being picked once during the entirety of TI3? will she need more buffs (the 6.78 buffs were pretty nice btw), a shift in metagame, or both, in order to see a resurgence?
On August 16 2013 04:47 woebegone wrote: Krob has become one of my favorite heroes since reading this guide, thanks tons. currently sitting at a respectable 58.5% winrate over 77 games, KDA 2.99. a few questions:
- in teamfights, do you ever eul their carries? most of the time i use it as i would a defensive Disruption. rush in with ghosts up (silencing is situational, as the enemy just might run away), tank for the team, and cyclone myself up. when i come back down, i phase to the back while right clicking ghosts and spamming swarm.
- how do you feel about DP not being picked once during the entirety of TI3? will she need more buffs (the 6.78 buffs were pretty nice btw), a shift in metagame, or both, in order to see a resurgence?
Happy you enjoyed the guide : )
1. Before sheep I tend to Eul their carries or save it for myself if I think they will focus me / have the burst to bring me down really fast. The invulnerability itself usually forces the enemy to change target or they are wasting 2.5sec in a teamfight. So the way you are playing is pretty good I think.
After sheep I almost always save it for myself. I will try to draw the fire for my team and then use it to force the enemy to switch focus after they have used some core abilites. Or use it to cancel big channeling spells/tps. Almost always sheep the carries.
2. I think a lot of teams during TI wanted midheroes that brought control and initiation. Common heroes were DK, Alch, Puck, Batrider and Beastmaster. All bringing that aspect to the team. I think it's also partly because the supports picked often times lacked control themselves. As in Visage + Chen is not the best support duo for lockdown as it's not as reliable as say a Rubick lift. So the teams wanted something that could really stun a target in place. Other common supports like Wisp and KotL also lacked that aspect.
Krob is also slightly weak vs some of the commonly picked combos during TI3 unfortunally. Puck + Nai'x is a deadly combo for her due to heavy burst + control they bring. However there was definitely some lineups I think she could have fitted into. But I think people just neglected to practice her and there is no point in playing a hero you haven't used in practice.
Interesting that you now consider her a better hero than when you were asked this before. I have to say though that it is a bit weird. In an era of split push that no one has looked at her. Considering how well she breaks base you would think someone would try it. She doesn't seem weak anymore to me though.
On August 16 2013 08:08 LeLoup wrote: Interesting that you now consider her a better hero than when you were asked this before. I have to say though that it is a bit weird. In an era of split push that no one has looked at her. Considering how well she breaks base you would think someone would try it. She doesn't seem weak anymore to me though.
Do you think she still has a hard time in lane?
Split push is actually one of her biggest weaknessess. Just like any other teamfight / teampush oriented heroes, if they never get to fight they struggle. She is more of a "group-up-and-push" heroes similar to Chen. Krob is a pretty weak split pusher herself because she pushes really slow without her ultimate. And if they defend it once (splitpushing means she often times is alone so not too difficult to stop) she has a very hard time pushing a 2nd time right after.
She also lacks that jump type of ability to punish splitpushers. She is really fast and can chase but it's not that jump that Clockwerk or Storm spirit has to really catch splitpushers.
I actually think she has a lot of synergy with both Lone Druid and Chen so I'm a bit sad she doesn't get much play anymore.
Laning has become less of an issue due to the common midheroes now are pretty weak laners themselves. Meta has shifted away from the completely dominant midheroes to "bottle-crowing-abusing" heroes that just sit and trade farm with the enemy. And that laning phase suits Krob pretty well. Heroes like QoP and TA has started to fall off even though they are occasionally picked.
Also if you are about to die and your ulti is about to run out: If you Euls yourself and the spirits come back during that time you will land with full health. (The health returned is based on how much dmg your ulti did though so if you didn't actually hit anything it wont return much health.)
you'd be surprised at how quickly the ghosts + a swarm ot two can shred underleveled squishy supports, but i find it very hard to reach them if you're not near the center of the fight
p.s. DrPanda, do you have anymore replays you'd like to share?
I fucked up sometimes there but it also shows pretty well how to position yourself in teamfights. If that site doesn't work say another one and I will upload to that.
Most of my tournament replays has expired atm, had to download them shortly after they were played apparently TT What type of replays are you looking for? I don't know if it's worth uploading stomps. And I guess I could go pub but then it would have been pubs as well.
any replays are fine, but the higher level of play, the better :D maybe ones in which you heroes DP has a hard time agaistagainst (TA or NS like you mentioned the in the OP)
would you ever forgo eul for a quick hex? i watched a pro playing a pub game vs wisp + tiny combo. he skipped eul for a 25th min hex. when i asked why, he said it was to lockdown the tiny in case he got ganked. thoughts? personally, i'm so used to having the cyclone and the +ms that i actually find it hard to deviate from your build now
I must admit that I always went bloodstone on DP in the past for more survivability, however your guide is quite convincing. So the gameplan is that in the ganking phase we use speed + cyclone to stay alive, then when the teamfights start we should already have our major survivability item (skadi/heart)? I just feel that she has to have some additional HP when the team battles begin.
On August 20 2013 11:26 targ wrote: I must admit that I always went bloodstone on DP in the past for more survivability, however your guide is quite convincing. So the gameplan is that in the ganking phase we use speed + cyclone to stay alive, then when the teamfights start we should already have our major survivability item (skadi/heart)? I just feel that she has to have some additional HP when the team battles begin.
Have you tried it out? The key to survival in DOTA is Positioning. If your in a good position, you cant be killed. Thats how you differentiate between good players & bad players, good players are seldom caught out.
With that insane move speed, unless the DP is chain stunned, it just cant be caught and killed. Even if they try to chain stun, notice that the core has a Drum in it, which provides a decent amount of hp to live through the stuns for early game. Once the euls is up, she can survive even longer via the cyclone immunity. With fast fingers, you can dodge the first stun and your still home free. I've done it quite a few times using the cyclone insta-cast. Hell even if they blow everything on you, it's still a win for your team as now the enemy team has nothing left in their tank. Trading you for 3/4heroes maybe a tower? Worth it. It just requires too much effort to focus down that speedy DP.
EDIT: I can't read to save my life apparently. Just realised i came off as bad-mannered/aggressive for some reason,sorry targ
Point is, what im trying to say that with good positioning and that drums+euls, she has enough survivability. She doesn't really need the additional hp that you feel she needs in teambattles at the early-mid game, but she does need a 3rd item(heart/skadi) after that.
On September 04 2013 04:20 AirbladeOrange wrote: Any more advice on how to lane mid against a shadow fiend? By level 3 he last hits and denies so well I have a hard time getting farm.
This generally means you've given him too many last hits and denies since level 1. At level 1 SF's base damage is pathetic, and you really have to make sure you abuse that to keep him at as close to 0 CS as possible. Once he hits level 3-4 depending on when he wants to put that second level in raze, he'll be able to start to catch up, but you've got to punish him hard before then. When he does manage to get some souls up, just use crypt swarm to last hit if you need to. If you do it right, you can probably even spam him out of the lane.
Try to out CS him in the start and post level 3 use crypt swarm to lasthit. Hit the ranged creep twice before nuking etc so it can't be denied. I don't know what else there is to say really. SF is a very tough matchup for every hero with weak lane-kill potential. You just end up trading farm with him. It's great if you manage to get help from your teammates, similar to facing OD/TA mid who just has a lot more auto attack dmg.
With pooling the midplayer + bottle crowing being so popular SF really is one of the most difficult matchups for Krob :/ He starts out with a lot more damage due to supports giving him regen. And the damage used to be his real weakness. Now it's super hard.
Updated the OP. Will try to play a few death prophet games in the near future. Unfortunally the first one I tried on this patch was vs a Bone7 stack so we got fucked pretty hard. She feels really strong now. With the buff to her spirits + the indirect buffs to her by Euls and Skadi getting buffed is pretty nice.
Thanks for updating your guide, it looks great now . I've been playing this style for a while now, I don't know for sure if it's that much better than bloodstone builds but it sure is a lot more fun. Her ulti just wrecks face even more now
On October 23 2013 05:54 DrPandaPhD wrote: Updated the OP. Will try to play a few death prophet games in the near future. Unfortunally the first one I tried on this patch was vs a Bone7 stack so we got fucked pretty hard. She feels really strong now. With the buff to her spirits + the indirect buffs to her by Euls and Skadi getting buffed is pretty nice.
I don't see a changelog, what did you update might I ask.
On October 23 2013 05:54 DrPandaPhD wrote: Updated the OP. Will try to play a few death prophet games in the near future. Unfortunally the first one I tried on this patch was vs a Bone7 stack so we got fucked pretty hard. She feels really strong now. With the buff to her spirits + the indirect buffs to her by Euls and Skadi getting buffed is pretty nice.
I don't see a changelog, what did you update might I ask.
item build order to the most streamlined build I've came up with. And then changed it to follow TL's new guidelines on guides or w/e
On October 23 2013 15:58 yyfpulls wrote: How do you use the Euls in fights?
Looking at the total hero damage in dotabuff with Krob is pretty funny. I out dmged the carries in every game I played her on the new patch.
disable channeling spells, catch people running away, use it to dodge incoming projectiles / simply get a bit more damage out of your ult when you're about to die
Eul is also great do get rid of silences (bloodseeker/ drow etc... ) or buy you enough time for your ult to finish and spirits to heal you. If you're smart with it it's extremely usefull
Edit: by the way shouldn't you add OD as a mid counter? I know he counters almost everybody, but I really feel like laning against him is almost impossible.
To pick Death Prophet you need a lineup built around her. You can put her on the safelane to make sure she gets farm. The team needs to have practiced with the hero a lot to get her in their comfort zone and understand how to play around her. She is in general considered a very risky pick.
You might want to add to this, that you want some big AE-Slows/Stuns so her Ult can have full effect in Teamfights or/and some sort of pushing lineup?
On October 23 2013 19:52 Jetaap wrote: Eul is also great do get rid of silences (bloodseeker/ drow etc... ) or buy you enough time for your ult to finish and spirits to heal you. If you're smart with it it's extremely usefull
Edit: by the way shouldn't you add OD as a mid counter? I know he counters almost everybody, but I really feel like laning against him is almost impossible.
he will outcs you but in my experience you just kinda hang back and cs with your nuke, and when the wave gets pushed out you go farm the medium/hard camp or take a rune and gank sidelanes. bottle crowing is required. it's a losing lane to be sure but it's not the end of the world (whereas NS for example will find you and destroy you as soon as nighttime hits).
I lost the game with your build, will you ever forgive me? On a serious not this build is so fun and effective, for me at least, that I actually do feel extra fail when I get DP and lose with it;)
To pick Death Prophet you need a lineup built around her. You can put her on the safelane to make sure she gets farm. The team needs to have practiced with the hero a lot to get her in their comfort zone and understand how to play around her. She is in general considered a very risky pick.
You might want to add to this, that you want some big AE-Slows/Stuns so her Ult can have full effect in Teamfights or/and some sort of pushing lineup?
no not really you don't need big stuns or aoes per-se, you just need some form of disable so the enemy team can't run away or rush you. DP's damage comes out big over time and you don't really need some huge initiation to dish out the damage. The ghost focus fire if the enemy hero is alone.
+1 on the bloodstone comment to OP, it's quite pointless.
DP strong as fuck after the patch.
food for thought: 1) has anyone considered getting medallion of courage? I imagine with someone's help to tank a little you can do rosh easily with it. It also offers stats dp want, namely mana regen and armour. It's also quite strong vs hero...
2) what about linken sphere? maybe it's bad since I don't see a smooth build-up of it. After drum / eul maybe?
3) what about heaven's halbred? give you a lot of useful stats too (dmg, str, evasion)
Medallion is really good for DP, but not on DP. It's one of the best support items in the game and very slot-ineffective for DP herself. So I'd avoid going it but supports on your team should really consider getting it.
I don't really know about Linkens, it is an extremely situational item. Could consider going it vs a team with very few single-target spells but very important ones. It's very good vs Lina, but absolutely awful vs Lion. So there might be a few select games where linkens is really good.
HH is good, I go for it every now and then. Usually vs Riki teams. In general you want ghost scepter over HH vs physical-heavy teams but ghost scepter doesn't really work vs Riki so. Sheep + Euls + HH deals with Riki very well. So yeah, HH is good.
I just won a game where I went Phase boots + Veil of Discord + Sheep.
Basically support caster Death Prophet, I went mid too.
On October 25 2013 00:27 evanthebouncy! wrote: food for thought: 1) has anyone considered getting medallion of courage? I imagine with someone's help to tank a little you can do rosh easily with it. It also offers stats dp want, namely mana regen and armour. It's also quite strong vs hero...
2) what about linken sphere? maybe it's bad since I don't see a smooth build-up of it. After drum / eul maybe?
3) what about heaven's halbred? give you a lot of useful stats too (dmg, str, evasion)
I like playing DP best as a team crippler. Items like VoD, Atos, and Sheep.
1) Medallion seems cool for killing heroes 1 on 1 with your ultimate. But that's not worth it on DP.
2) Linken's Sphere depends on the enemy. Will you block the majority of their stuff? If yes then get it.
3) Heaven's Halberd... is a good item but doesn't seem to make much sense on DP due to lack of int. Might be great vs carries like Anti-Mage and PA but I'd rather have my Sheep.
To pick Death Prophet you need a lineup built around her. You can put her on the safelane to make sure she gets farm. The team needs to have practiced with the hero a lot to get her in their comfort zone and understand how to play around her. She is in general considered a very risky pick.
You might want to add to this, that you want some big AE-Slows/Stuns so her Ult can have full effect in Teamfights or/and some sort of pushing lineup?
no not really you don't need big stuns or aoes per-se, you just need some form of disable so the enemy team can't run away or rush you. DP's damage comes out big over time and you don't really need some huge initiation to dish out the damage. The ghost focus fire if the enemy hero is alone.
To pick Death Prophet you need a lineup built around her. You can put her on the safelane to make sure she gets farm. The team needs to have practiced with the hero a lot to get her in their comfort zone and understand how to play around her. She is in general considered a very risky pick.
You might want to add to this, that you want some big AE-Slows/Stuns so her Ult can have full effect in Teamfights or/and some sort of pushing lineup?
no not really you don't need big stuns or aoes per-se, you just need some form of disable so the enemy team can't run away or rush you. DP's damage comes out big over time and you don't really need some huge initiation to dish out the damage. The ghost focus fire if the enemy hero is alone.
Ahm.. Your actually agreeing with me?
I'm agreeing with you need stun/slow but I don't think you necessarily need a "big" stun or a "big" slow.
I think it's most important to get heros that you can weave in and out of and can offer mutual protections. A good example is beastmaster, or bane.
To pick Death Prophet you need a lineup built around her. You can put her on the safelane to make sure she gets farm. The team needs to have practiced with the hero a lot to get her in their comfort zone and understand how to play around her. She is in general considered a very risky pick.
You might want to add to this, that you want some big AE-Slows/Stuns so her Ult can have full effect in Teamfights or/and some sort of pushing lineup?
no not really you don't need big stuns or aoes per-se, you just need some form of disable so the enemy team can't run away or rush you. DP's damage comes out big over time and you don't really need some huge initiation to dish out the damage. The ghost focus fire if the enemy hero is alone.
Ahm.. Your actually agreeing with me?
I'm agreeing with you need stun/slow but I don't think you necessarily need a "big" stun or a "big" slow.
I think it's most important to get heros that you can weave in and out of and can offer mutual protections. A good example is beastmaster, or bane.
veno seems to be a good partner in teamfights. veno ult + slow + constant dp nuke spam + ghosts just rape everything
i want to buy the gloom set but it costs so much.. people are asking for 3-4 keys qq
is it me or just necro book just murder dp in fights? i think spirit mechanic is that it would aim the person u right click but if you are chasing someone/running away your spirits will automatically hit the necronomicon warrior and boom
They really kill her yes, similar to Tinker. But BKB stops it, and it's not a bad item on DP actually, but it's pretty tricky to know exactly when your ult is going to kill the necro units.
This hero somehow still feels weaker than it did in DotA (although lasthitting seems a lot easier)
How do you deal with Blademail as DP? I've been rushing BKB when I see blademail but there has to be a more efficient way... it becomes problematic when multiple heroes have it, also prevents me from going for solo kills on heroes with it.
Well you could always euls the guy you're trying to kill to burn off most of the duration, but that is somewhat clunky and unwieldy in larger fights. Maybe you could euls yourself when they activate the blademails?
speaking of the recent trend of everybody and their mother going Midas lately, i have a hard time convincing myself that it's a good item on DP. it sounds really good on theory - higher levels = more ghosts = opposing supports die even quicker/faster pushes - but there's no good opportunity for it in terms of item progression
- my first 650 gold will always go towards the Bottle
- the next 1k5 on Phase and Wand so i can escape ganks, have more dmg for last hit, and burst heal for desperate measures
- getting it in place of Drums is the only feasible option so far, but from my experience with the hero, the +9 str and movespeed is a godsend, so i'm not too keen on that either.
and by the time you have Drums, you'll be crying out for mana to spam Swarm and run around pushing towers, so i don't see a good reason to delay Eul's/Hex (if you're rushing one, i've seen pros do it before situationally), plus, the 15-18 min mark is too late for a 2 position hero to get Midas anyway. i guess it's possible to delay the Phase + skip Wand and Drums so you can get a 6-7 min Midas if your other two lanes are stomping so hard that there's no danger of you getting ganked, but that sounds like wishful thinking
on the other hand, DP seems like the perfect hero to punish 'Bidas/Tridas' strategies with her early aggression. if it doesn't look like my team will have a Mek, i'll just pick one up after Drums + void stone from Eul's for the mana regen and start 5 manning early (this does leave her extremely slot constrained though)
just throwing my thoughts out there for those who are considering the midas route
On October 30 2013 19:49 woebegone wrote: speaking of the recent trend of everybody and their mother going Midas lately, i have a hard time convincing myself that it's a good item on DP. it sounds really good on theory - higher levels = more ghosts = opposing supports die even quicker/faster pushes - but there's no good opportunity for it in terms of item progression..
Isn't the idea behind Midas, being greed, pray for opponent not to punish while deal with less? You sacrifice your survivability/mana regen/speed to gain more after 20+ minutes. I agree with your points and see midas as a greedy unnecessary item on her.
Yeah.. Whiteout Phaseboots you can't lasthit against any halfway decent mid hero and after that you want to solve your Mana/Survivability.... A quick lvl 11 is really nice but i don't think it's worth it to go Midas with her. What good does you lvl 11 do if youre still only able to cast your Ult + 2 Swarms...
Well... If you are in lineup with 2-3 Arcane Boots or/and CM/OD it might be worth it (which is unlikely if your not in a heavy pushing lineup and there you would like survivability too...)
On October 31 2013 06:32 DrPandaPhD wrote: Showing the strength of high mobility. (http://dotabuff.com/matches/358741754)
Just realized you were hasted for four seconds every eight.
I use that item setup a lot and just by looking at his item I thought "yeah he's gonna get 521 speed when he press the boot" there were some clutch swarms in there. I don't think I throw good enough swarms when I'm on the run, I was afraid if I stop running they'd kill me ;/
How does running away work? If you set the ghost to focus fire on one guy then run, would the ghost continue to focus that one guy?
Does sight have anything to do with the ghost damage, i.e. if you're in the wood do you need sight for the ghost to deal damage?
What is your opinion on force staff? I have a feeling it's also very nice. It gives you a "get out of jail" card that's much needed against some lineups (I had to fight meepo once and I thought man if I had a force staff things would be much better (would it get rid of the earthbind? I mean even if it does not it give you a very quick burst of speed that sometimes you really want)
would be good to discuss these points in detail. I'm playing a fuckton of DP atm and there's definitely rooms to understand the hero some more.
p.s. the most hilarious rune on dp is hands down the invis rune. you can kill so many people with it.
ghosts should attack the last thing (in range) that you attack commanded iirc. once a ghost has locked on to a target, you don't need vision anymore for that instance of ghost damage (think throwing an autoattack at someone who then disappears into fog of war, the attack will still land).
On October 31 2013 06:32 DrPandaPhD wrote: Showing the strength of high mobility. (http://dotabuff.com/matches/358741754)
Just realized you were hasted for four seconds every eight.
I use that item setup a lot and just by looking at his item I thought "yeah he's gonna get 521 speed when he press the boot" there were some clutch swarms in there. I don't think I throw good enough swarms when I'm on the run, I was afraid if I stop running they'd kill me ;/
How does running away work? If you set the ghost to focus fire on one guy then run, would the ghost continue to focus that one guy?
Yes
Does sight have anything to do with the ghost damage, i.e. if you're in the wood do you need sight for the ghost to deal damage?
No you don't need vision for ghosts to attack stuff. As long as you are in range they will find the targets themselves. Which makes DP very hard to juke since she doesn't care much about vision.
What is your opinion on force staff? I have a feeling it's also very nice. It gives you a "get out of jail" card that's much needed against some lineups (I had to fight meepo once and I thought man if I had a force staff things would be much better (would it get rid of the earthbind? I mean even if it does not it give you a very quick burst of speed that sometimes you really want)
Force staff might have it's place like vs Meepo. But it's really really situational.
A general tips vs meepo is to really try avoid getting blink-poofed on. Once you see one of the meepos just get really ready to Eul yourself. As soon as the Meepo has blinked next to you euls yourself. The rest will appear, once he has blinked he has commited so just avoid the initial poof burst. And then try to kill him with a teammate. Meepo is one of the best heroes to punish split-pushing since he excel in "1v1" battles. So try not to go too much solo vs an enemy meepo if he's farmed.
impressive 1v5 (poor Rubick died so fast..) and that efficient farming :O
i find DP to be near useless lategame against a farmed Meepo. BKB doesnt prevent the 5 of them from right clicking you, and without BKB you'll get netted and die a horrible death (even with heart). same with any other illusion based carry hero. on the other hand, a naix is so easy to kite and focus with ghosts, i'm not too concerned about him unless he's much further ahead
On October 31 2013 17:56 DrPandaPhD wrote: A general tips vs meepo is to really try avoid getting blink-poofed on. Once you see one of the meepos just get really ready to Eul yourself. As soon as the Meepo has blinked next to you euls yourself. The rest will appear, once he has blinked he has commited so just avoid the initial poof burst. And then try to kill him with a teammate. Meepo is one of the best heroes to punish split-pushing since he excel in "1v1" battles. So try not to go too much solo vs an enemy meepo if he's farmed.
Not fully applicable to DP, but also fun is summoning a necrobook as the poofing begins.
I read somewhere that you could alt click if you weren't in right click range I guess the attack range doesn't matter as long as you can still see the hero to click?
The more i Play her (140 games now)... The more i feel like... It doesn't even really matter what you build on her (as Long as it improves her Manareg/pool and survivability), all that counts is that you get a bit of help in hard mid matchups and that your first pushes (2-3 early Towers) "work" and the teamcomposition is kinda built around you.
While Phase/Euls/Drums is really the "go to build", Arcane Boots can be better if your teammates are also really spammy.
On November 08 2013 03:44 whoso wrote: how come people rarely buy mekansm on her? it suits her so nice just like it does to necro
She doesn't need it. It's a 2k gold sink for no reason. Necro is a bit different since you can still fight under his aura, but fighting under ghosts is a different story. Think about it for a second, would you rather get a bloodstone quicker or take a detour to meka which offers her marginal survivability when someone else can get it?
What's funny with this recent Krobelus re-discovery is that this is the hero that Dendi got noticed for, phase+witchcraft is still stupid as shit.
I think the reason more people don't get Mek is the same reason people don't get it on Abbadon or Viper (they are silly). She does have a very big mana problem (solve with Arcanes + something, or maybe Bloodstone if you are wildly rich), and Mek will exacerbate that. You need to be careful to not be OOM all the time as DP if you build items like Mek.
Xboct picked bloodstone and won with it. Bloodstone has such a good build up, you seem to totally forget it. And DP will be able to use the insane mana regen, 140 mana every 4 seconds just from her nuke.
Bloodstone was awesome on DP when it gave hp regen per charge. (And heart was 30 hp/s not deactivated by combat). Bloodstone -> heart - > shiva for unkillable #1 hard carry. As it is I agree with this guide in that BS really don't give enough for what is costs. There are cheeper ways of getting 400 hp plus mana regen. And didn't the "statman" in the VP vs alliance game have a comment about how this was one of very few games in which dp had gone for bloodstone (which also had a very bad win ratio) ?
On November 08 2013 08:09 nojok wrote: Xboct picked bloodstone and won with it. Bloodstone has such a good build up, you seem to totally forget it. And DP will be able to use the insane mana regen, 140 mana every 4 seconds just from her nuke.
No I didn't forget it. I just didn't feel like writing about the buildup because Drums Euls has an even better buildup so idk.
On November 08 2013 08:21 KlaCkoN wrote: Bloodstone was awesome on DP when it gave hp regen per charge. (And heart was 30 hp/s not deactivated by combat). Bloodstone -> heart - > shiva for unkillable #1 hard carry. As it is I agree with this guide in that BS really don't give enough for what is costs. There are cheeper ways of getting 400 hp plus mana regen. And didn't the "statman" in the VP vs alliance game have a comment about how this was one of very few games in which dp had gone for bloodstone (which also had a very bad win ratio) ?
I totally didn't know that... In all my older games I went for bloodstone cuz I thought if I gained 20 charges I wouldn't die ever in combat... That'll explain my huge winrate increase after I stopped getting it ahaahah
I dont like the skillbuild in the guide. I -- and most pros who I've seen play DP -- go something like 4-0-3-1 before taking silence, sometimes even 4-0-4-1 it really depends on how badly you need it, but you want to avoid taking it for as long as possible to make your ultimate stronger...
Edit: I also think Rod of Atos is the second item you should get after Drums and then into Euls unless theres a specific reason to go Euls (long silences, orchid heroes like clinkz, etc.) You really need the HP and the ability is imbalanced on that hero
If you're an advanced player who can make educated adjustments based on the situation, then delaying that point in silence for more points in witchcraft may be feasible. However for the average guide-needing player, that early point in silence is far more likely to save your life/get you kills than the smaller advantages that more points in witchcraft give you.
Regarding Euls vs Atos, Atos gives you hp and a more offensive ability while Euls gives you movespeed, mana regen, some offensive and defensive ability, and a crucial interrupt that DP lacks. While I think Atos can be amazing on DP, I'd still rush Euls first in most games.
On November 08 2013 21:52 Firebolt145 wrote: If you're an advanced player who can make educated adjustments based on the situation, then delaying that point in silence for more points in witchcraft may be feasible. However for the average guide-needing player, that early point in silence is far more likely to save your life/get you kills than the smaller advantages that more points in witchcraft give you.
Regarding Euls vs Atos, Atos gives you hp and a more offensive ability while Euls gives you movespeed, mana regen, some offensive and defensive ability, and a crucial interrupt that DP lacks. While I think Atos can be amazing on DP, I'd still rush Euls first in most games.
I don't agree with this, her Silence actually has considerable animation and getting a new player to cast it properly (to cast it and squash the backswing animation) isn't easy. I would rather give them more passive advantages to work with.
Now if there was a blink hero like QoP or w/e then the Silence is necessary, if not, I don't see the point making someone take a pretty average spell (at level 1).
Whats the actual trade off anyways? Level 1 Silence's aoe is pretty small iirc. The opportunity cost of delaying your 3rd and 4th level of Witchcraft is pretty significant since you are going 4-1-1-1, so you'll be maxing witchcraft at 10? Seems pretty costly.
I almost never get a point in silence before lvl 9 unless I'm in danger of getting dived in mid / need to interrupt some bit channeling spell: (3/0/4/1), then maybe silence. The cast animation is so long that it becomes relatively useless offensively until you have some kind of disable / have finished your racecar build. The extra spirits seem to help a lot with taking early towers (since lvl 1 ult has so few spirits to begin with), the extra movespeed helps with rune control / rotations.
@Firebolt, I think Judicator meant that the rank 1 silence is pretty average. @Judicator, the AoE is the same at all ranks now (I think it was 6.77 or 6.78 that changed this).
On November 08 2013 21:52 Firebolt145 wrote: If you're an advanced player who can make educated adjustments based on the situation, then delaying that point in silence for more points in witchcraft may be feasible. However for the average guide-needing player, that early point in silence is far more likely to save your life/get you kills than the smaller advantages that more points in witchcraft give you.
There's not much foresight in deciding when you need the first Silence rank. It's mostly just "take it when you're about to teamfight". Outside of that, the silence's usefulness outside of teamfights is fairly mixed, depending on what heroes are in the enemy lineup and how hard silence hits their effectiveness.
This just seems like one of those scenarios where you could provide a cookie-cutter build, but at a basic level, the decision-making required to decide when to take the 1st rank of silence is straightforward enough that there's no point in vacillating over whether the cookie-cutter build should be 4-1-1-1- or 4-0-2-1.
It's a crushing teamfight skill, though. If you're level 8 and have 4-0-3-1 and your team is going to push/5-man soon, I would get that 1st rank silence when you ding 9 and not the 4th point of Witchcraft.
Is a newbie going to realise 'oh there are going to be teamfights soon'? I guess you could counter argue that early teamfights aren't prevalent at lower mmr, meh.
This build is like a really mainstreamed build, made to be able to be viable every single game you play. It's not going to be the most effective build you can go for every game, but it's going to be viable. And since I wrote this guide for newer people (why would you read a guide if you know what you are doing anyway?) I tried to make it as un-situational as possible.
Sometimes it's even better to skip the ulti at level 6, but it's not the point of my guide. Feel free to discuss your opinions on situational builds in this thread, that's what it is here for. But just wanted to clearify that I don't think this build is the perfect build. It's just a very mainstreamed build so it will work fine every game you play, which is a good start for newer players.
On November 09 2013 04:18 DrPandaPhD wrote: Note that there is no "perfect build".
This build is like a really mainstreamed build, made to be able to be viable every single game you play. It's not going to be the most effective build you can go for every game, but it's going to be viable. And since I wrote this guide for newer people (why would you read a guide if you know what you are doing anyway?) I tried to make it as un-situational as possible.
Sometimes it's even better to skip the ulti at level 6, but it's not the point of my guide. Feel free to discuss your opinions on situational builds in this thread, that's what it is here for. But just wanted to clearify that I don't think this build is the perfect build. It's just a very mainstreamed build so it will work fine every game you play, which is a good start for newer players.
What I am trying to tell you is that 4-1-1-1 is not the best mainstreamed build. At least not in my opinion. Rod of Atos before Euls is also a better item build than what in the guide
And no, there's never a time where you would skip ulti at level 6.
I've seen Scandal delay Ulti til lvl 8. Similar to how you would do it on Queen of Pain. There are certainly times where not going for ult at lvl 6 is the right choice.
The entire point of the build is the 521 movespeed you get with phase drums euls. It synergizes ridiculously well with her ult and makes it so you can come in and get out of fights easy. Euls is also very good defensively and gives you mana regen (something she desperately needs if you're farming properly). Also there is no good reason to skip silence till 9 because if you're not forcing fights and engaging the enemy early with her you're wasting her potential.
Pretty much the whole point of the hero is forcing your opponents to react to you and fight you. why you'd skip an aoe silence for more ghosts especially after the buffs to the silence and the buffs to her is debateable at best and bad at worst. Especially with a hero that if you do get a good silence can kill off at least one support in the duration of level 1 silence.
As far as the pros comment. Pros still go bloodstone on her and pretend she's timber sometimes. I'm pretty sure we can safely say that isn't the best build though.
Are you serious? Have you actually watched any DOTA recently? Almost every single pro skips it until lvl 8,9 or 10. I have yet to see a 4-1-1 build in a pro game. Your ulti becomes infinitely stronger with more points in your E and is in almost every scenario better than silence. If you play against a Storm, Puck or QOP (or similarly to these so I dont run down the list) I can see it being decent at lvl 8 or 9. But 4-1-1 is just not good. It's not terrible, it is just a very suboptimal build where you don't get the full potential out of your hero.
Also I disagree it's like similar to Queen of Pain. QOP is very different and there's an obvious benefit to it. I don't know where you've seen Scandal do it but sometimes even pros get ridiculous ideas, or is just trolling.
Euls can work before Rod of Atos, but not as a general build. You very much need HP and you get a greater manapool from Rod of Atos than Euls. You get less regen, but that's what you have runes and a bottle for. The 60 % slow on like a million cast range is just outright imbalanced on that hero; the earlier, the better.
And yes, Bloodstone can be an okay item but we're talking mainstream and not situational stuff. Getting Silence early is the situational build.
Edit: And just to make sure, the entire point of the build is _NOT_ the movement speed from Euls. It's the Cyclone effect. The extra movement speed is great, but the reason you build it is for defensive Cyclones when you're in big fights to dodge spells and have your ulti doing even more damage and you can control fights way better.
2009 video of DP. The video is somewhat outdated and Atos hasn't even been introduced yet I think, but he explains about what makes DP powerful and how Eul's synergizes so well with her. It's actually very informative, although the only two games he had available to cast were one-sided stomps, so he couldn't show a game where the DP was actually stressed going into the mid-late game.
I don't see how Atos is better than Eul's. Euls gives you both the killing/chasing power and the survivability, but with mana regen and movespeed as well. The slow is okay but it is a single target slow that does pretty much nothing in teamfights (you aren't a ganker anyway) and you can just pick up drum/vit booster for hp anyway. You also don't particularly need a huge mana pool compared to regen, you're spamming cheap nukes throughout a fight mostly. I also think ult at 6 is completely fine - you can push the mid tower if your lane opponent leaves to gank, you can kill people if they try to gank you / discourage ganks, it just opens up a lot of possibilities that you didn't have before. Sure in terms of straight 1v1 laning presence its not needed but you are gonna be more flexible by taking ult at 6. It's obviously stronger with more points in E but it still is a reasonable pushing tool with level 2 witchcraft. The one point I do agree with Bumblebee on is that getting more points in E rather than taking silence is often preferable. Silence is mostly a defensive tool on DP at that point and you can get away without it with solid game knowledge/map awareness. However taking a point in silence is probably fine and won't kill your DP play..
On November 10 2013 16:49 Pokebunny wrote: I don't see how Atos is better than Eul's. Euls gives you both the killing/chasing power and the survivability, but with mana regen and movespeed as well. The slow is okay but it is a single target slow that does pretty much nothing in teamfights (you aren't a ganker anyway) and you can just pick up drum/vit booster for hp anyway. You also don't particularly need a huge mana pool compared to regen, you're spamming cheap nukes throughout a fight mostly. I also think ult at 6 is completely fine - you can push the mid tower if your lane opponent leaves to gank, you can kill people if they try to gank you / discourage ganks, it just opens up a lot of possibilities that you didn't have before. Sure in terms of straight 1v1 laning presence its not needed but you are gonna be more flexible by taking ult at 6. It's obviously stronger with more points in E but it still is a reasonable pushing tool with level 2 witchcraft. The one point I do agree with Bumblebee on is that getting more points in E rather than taking silence is often preferable. Silence is mostly a defensive tool on DP at that point and you can get away without it with solid game knowledge/map awareness. However taking a point in silence is probably fine and won't kill your DP play..
^ Agreed.
Imo, Atos gives you hp & a cripple. Yes its useful, but a Euls gives you a controlling mechanism that works with your Ultimate and gives you mana regen/movement speed. It's been discussed to death, but movement speed can take the place of HP. Positioning is key in dota. If your positioned well,you dont need the extra HP. The mana regen is extremely useful too imo,that regen is more than enough to solve DP's mana requirement(along side a bottle/wand) making you have enough mana pool to use your stuff without a Atos anyway.
Atos is more of a ganking item imo...while DP by skillset is meant to be a teamfight/pusher. Euls also gives you opportunities to do things like Dodge stuns etc. The main focus of this guide is on the mobility teamfighting aspect of a DP, which it does quite well.
As for Silence or Witchcraft...yes more points into Witchcraft is good. But a point into Silence is definitely worth it as a Utility tool. There's plenty of situations at level 6 to justify the 4-1-1 build most of the time. I've definitely preferred the 1point into Silence over an extra point into Witchcraft.
All-in-one early/mid-game item, I don't see the problem in it if you're going for the pushy game for a hero limited to her spells for farm/gank/siege. I read some weird thread on Reddit (...) today that was calling for other alternatives (Eul's can be great and what I build if I don't see an early bloodstone, but seen people asking for a rush to Heart before Eul's, why?) and people seem to not look at the whole picture or her item progression, especially LD who had regurgitated the nonsense. I mean, it's about the time you get the item, it isn't bad, it's okay (good at best) on her but people are pretending it is the holocaust to build Bloodstone.
What do you think about going travels first in response to having a walkover lane? I've thought about doing it in the past, but 24 damage and phase active have always been really important for actually doing well early game.
Seems like there are three options if you want to snowball an early lead harder:
Same core items, faster
Midas
Boots of Travel
The same core but with earlier push is probably the best alternative, but requires some team coordination. I don't like midas because here as it costs a slot, and getting reliable gold (towers) and levels (kills) when you're ahead as DP is going to happen anyway. With travels, you get the basically same speed as perma-phase, have an extra slot, and can counter-gank more effectively when T1 towers are down. Not having to juggle bottle/wand when you require wards or dust is probably just a convenience, but being able to hang onto both when you have the vit booster is still useful.
Did try this out in a game laning vs a Bat recently. No way I was getting denied farm, but also couldn't push him out, due to some bronze-level issues. Got near 2000 gold after he gave up first blood trying to dive me, so progression was bottle, boots, wand, travels (drum, euls, heart). Didn't seem to have that big of an impact on the game either way - apart from maybe making me play better by being more willing to tp versus pressure in other lanes.
On January 19 2014 01:06 lzma wrote: What do you think about going travels first in response to having a walkover lane? I've thought about doing it in the past, but 24 damage and phase active have always been really important for actually doing well early game.
Seems like there are three options if you want to snowball an early lead harder:
Same core items, faster
Midas
Boots of Travel
The same core but with earlier push is probably the best alternative, but requires some team coordination. I don't like midas because here as it costs a slot, and getting reliable gold (towers) and levels (kills) when you're ahead as DP is going to happen anyway. With travels, you get the basically same speed as perma-phase, have an extra slot, and can counter-gank more effectively when T1 towers are down. Not having to juggle bottle/wand when you require wards or dust is probably just a convenience, but being able to hang onto both when you have the vit booster is still useful.
Did try this out in a game laning vs a Bat recently. No way I was getting denied farm, but also couldn't push him out, due to some bronze-level issues. Got near 2000 gold after he gave up first blood trying to dive me, so progression was bottle, boots, wand, travels (drum, euls, heart). Didn't seem to have that big of an impact on the game either way - apart from maybe making me play better by being more willing to tp versus pressure in other lanes.
DP snowballs by getting tower kills for the most part, so she's not really supposed to TP everywhere to counter gank (her toolset is quite bad for counterganking as well). Of course it can work but I don't really see any situation where it would be the better choice.
Hi, I just have a noob question about DP's ult. It's hard to tell exactly how this spell works from the description. DP doesn't get healed at all until the last few seconds as the spell is about to expire and the spirits are returning to her? Also, do the spirits deal their damage amount once or do they do it more than once.
On a barely related note, what is the purpose of getting drums on DP or in general? I see lots of heroes get them as a first or second item but its stats are kind random to me. Is it just like a general buff to your hero in the early game to make you a little stronger while you work on getting your bigger items?
Exorcism spawns a bunch of ghosts that attack enemies, prioritizing any hero you're actively trying to hit with autoattacks. While I don't know their exact mechanics, the gist is that they'll last for the duration of the spell, and continually attack anything in range, which typically is the target you're right-clicking. The heal is applied at the end of the spell's duration, as you mentioned, and is based on how much damage the ghosts did while flying around.
As for drums, they're generally not a bad choice on anyone that benefits from movespeed, health, and mana (and a bit of damage, to boot). Which is basically everyone. The times you want to avoid drums is in situations where something else (mek, blink, battlefury, linkens, bkb, etc) is more important to get up sooner.
On May 22 2014 14:50 Staboteur wrote: As for drums, they're generally not a bad choice on anyone that benefits from movespeed, health, and mana (and a bit of damage, to boot). Which is basically everyone. The times you want to avoid drums is in situations where something else (mek, blink, battlefury, linkens, bkb, etc) is more important to get up sooner.
Oh ok, thanks. How about the active? 10 move speed and 10 attack speed. Just use it when you are in fights for a little boost or what? Is the item just good in general or is the active a reason to get it.
On May 22 2014 14:50 Staboteur wrote: As for drums, they're generally not a bad choice on anyone that benefits from movespeed, health, and mana (and a bit of damage, to boot). Which is basically everyone. The times you want to avoid drums is in situations where something else (mek, blink, battlefury, linkens, bkb, etc) is more important to get up sooner.
Oh ok, thanks. How about the active? 10 move speed and 10 attack speed. Just use it when you are in fights for a little boost or what? Is the item just good in general or is the active a reason to get it.
Forget it has charges, and use it whenever you think it would be good to use it. Too many people hold the charges like they're worth more later in the game or something.
And opterown is probably right - I betcha drums is rarely the optimal choice on krob, but it's decent as a generic starting item.
I think the big draw of Drums is the extra MS for Krob. Although I generally think Mek might be better to get if no one else on the team is a good Mek carrier.
But I really do love 521 MS Krob and will not pass up a chance to go Drums+Phase+Eul's to be able to be 521 MS Krob
i've just started playing DP again since she's first pick/ban material right now in ranked CM. i'm curious what are her strong and weak 1v1 mid matchups against the other current meta mids (viper, razor, invoker, etc). what are the kinds of drafts you want to avoid picking DP for?
On August 19 2014 04:53 joolz wrote: i've just started playing DP again since she's first pick/ban material right now in ranked CM. i'm curious what are her strong and weak 1v1 mid matchups against the other current meta mids (viper, razor, invoker, etc). what are the kinds of drafts you want to avoid picking DP for?
There really aren't many mid matchups that she loses badly. OD is annoying, of course, and Viper can pile on the orb spam, but worst case scenario you can bottle crow and CS/harass at 1000 range with Crypt Swarm.
Can't really think of heroes that can completely shut her down.
Most of Krob's strength is in long fights/pushes where Exorcism can pile on damage, so the worst teams are the ones that can clear a creepwave to stall you, stun and burst you, or can avoid teamfights and re-engage when you're on cooldown.
has there been any discussion about the value of shadowblade on krob? i know it sounds like a retarded pubstar item but i run into several situations where i can backstab into a fight after a teammate initiates, silence the supports, and burn them down with exorcism before silence wears off. a shadowblade would just be more insurance on positioning before the fight starts, and an escape tool if it goes bad.
I'd rather spend the gold on a Euls which gives me movespeed, mana regen and the ability to go invul while my ghosts do their thing honestly. You don't really benefit from Shadowblade aside from the invis as right clicking is not your strength as DP. Dumping 3000 gold on an item that you only really get for the invis doesn't seem worth it to me. I'd rather spend the gold on a Eul's or if I have it already, it's at least half the build up to Sheepstick.
On May 22 2014 14:50 Staboteur wrote: Exorcism spawns a bunch of ghosts that attack enemies, prioritizing any hero you're actively trying to hit with autoattacks. While I don't know their exact mechanics, the gist is that they'll last for the duration of the spell, and continually attack anything in range, which typically is the target you're right-clicking. The heal is applied at the end of the spell's duration, as you mentioned, and is based on how much damage the ghosts did while flying around.
As for drums, they're generally not a bad choice on anyone that benefits from movespeed, health, and mana (and a bit of damage, to boot). Which is basically everyone. The times you want to avoid drums is in situations where something else (mek, blink, battlefury, linkens, bkb, etc) is more important to get up sooner.
They way the ghosts work is that they will fly to the target, attack, and then fly back to krob. Once they've returned to krob, they will fly out to attack again. This means that your dps is heavily affected by the distance between you and your target. This is also why melee heroes who try to manfight an exorcising krob will get rekt.
Besides being good pusher she is an asset in teamfights with her chasing, aoe dps(specially in the early game), aoe silence, gank initiation with euls-> silence, and ofc her ulti. Her DPS comes from Crypt Swarm and Exorcism so she has the luxury of stacking survivability items.
On August 19 2014 04:53 joolz wrote: i've just started playing DP again since she's first pick/ban material right now in ranked CM. i'm curious what are her strong and weak 1v1 mid matchups against the other current meta mids (viper, razor, invoker, etc). what are the kinds of drafts you want to avoid picking DP for?
There really aren't many mid matchups that she loses badly. OD is annoying, of course, and Viper can pile on the orb spam, but worst case scenario you can bottle crow and CS/harass at 1000 range with Crypt Swarm.
Can't really think of heroes that can completely shut her down.
Most of Krob's strength is in long fights/pushes where Exorcism can pile on damage, so the worst teams are the ones that can clear a creepwave to stall you, stun and burst you, or can avoid teamfights and re-engage when you're on cooldown.
Orge beats her hard. and supports have to be ware to tp mid, orge forces supports to play alot diffrent and he can abuse that and force tps. to make other lanes play more secure.
also most DP mid vs orge dont sit back becuse they are underestimating the damage he deals at lvl 5.
his high auto attack great animation/bat, built in base regen makes so she cant bully him out of the lane either, and if orge is topped and dp is out of position once, after lvl 5(yes 5 not 6) when ignite is at rank 3 and fireblast its ignite firblast 2 autoattacks on her and she is gooner, gotta dive a bit thou but enuff to fake dive to force tp:s and back off for profit, if not its an easy kill.
Thing is few play orge mid, i play it often thou. for fast ags eul timing around 16-20 min mark. depending how the game goes.
dp is weak against pa,orge,kunnka,viper. keep in mind DP is very strong mid in generall, and got a very good starting curve.
I've definitely hated the couple of times I've gone against a decent Kunkka mid with DP. But I recently got owned by a Huskar, a hero I actually don't see that much of in my pubs at all but had never had to face mid as DP. I figured it was going to be hard but I wasn't prepared for how hard bottle-rush Huskar was going to be.
We ended up winning but I could use some tips. For example, the map collapsed kinda quickly so it was hard for me to farm my Euls but I thought when I got it I could Euls out of Life Break. The one time I had a chance to try this it didn't seem to work. I couldn't tell if it was an input error or if even Euls doesn't work. But that was well after game at mid, which was a primary reason the game was so hard. Past a point I just couldn't get near him.
DP shouldn't really have many problems with Huskar. In lane, you should crush him based on the enormous autoattack range advantage and AoE (Huskar's biggest issue in lane is going vs. longer range heroes that can harass him out of lane and lack of AoE to get creep advantage). Getting a good block is important to being able to leverage your range advantage. Against level 6+ kill attempts, Silence is crucial because the majority of Huskar's killing power comes off the high magic damage + tower diving ability of his orb, and Silencing him removes this option. Silencing him under tower after he's already Life Break-ed means he often has to either fight you with tower aggro or back off and take a ton of free damage on the way out.
Likewise, good Silence usage is key to handling him later on. He may get BKB for this, but by then you should have Eul's. Eul's-ing yourself to dodge Life Break depends on the situation. Remember that your ult is one of the best high-physical damage abilities for cleaning him up when he's low HP and his magic resist is high, so it may be better to Eul's yourself at that point rather than to just dodge Life Break.
Also remember that Life Break grants Magic Immunity while he's mid-jump, so don't silence him while he's in the middle of the animation.
Sounds good. I am pretty cookie-cutter with my skill-build on DP, same thing probably 90% of games (4-0-4 into ult) and it didn't occur to me to pick up an early level of silence vs. Huskar. So Euls does dodge it? I wonder how I missed that in the game. I was kinda counting on dodging it to kill him (or at least survive) and it went pretty badly.
Definitely once I stopped being food he had to be scared of my ult. Same with a game I went against him on PA; once I had BKB he was straight fucked, but he was a terror before that point.
I wish they would remove the Unit Target aspect of Crypt Swarm like they did for ES. Can't count the number of times that has screwed me up. There's just no need for it.
Thanks for this guide. I played a very farmed dp yesterday but it seems like i had the wrong itembuild. Would you consider a mjollnir as 6th slot with 2 raxes down on your side? Was it a bad call on my part at that point?
On February 16 2015 23:44 Names wrote: Thanks for this guide. I played a very farmed dp yesterday but it seems like i had the wrong itembuild. Would you consider a mjollnir as 6th slot with 2 raxes down on your side? Was it a bad call on my part at that point?
need some more information like what other items you had, and team compositions
On February 16 2015 23:44 Names wrote: Thanks for this guide. I played a very farmed dp yesterday but it seems like i had the wrong itembuild. Would you consider a mjollnir as 6th slot with 2 raxes down on your side? Was it a bad call on my part at that point?
need some more information like what other items you had, and team compositions
On February 16 2015 23:44 Names wrote: Thanks for this guide. I played a very farmed dp yesterday but it seems like i had the wrong itembuild. Would you consider a mjollnir as 6th slot with 2 raxes down on your side? Was it a bad call on my part at that point?
On February 16 2015 23:44 Names wrote: Thanks for this guide. I played a very farmed dp yesterday but it seems like i had the wrong itembuild. Would you consider a mjollnir as 6th slot with 2 raxes down on your side? Was it a bad call on my part at that point?
Bloodstone is a waste of gold on DP.
Yes, I've read about it in the OP, which I hadn't read before that match because I never play DP, thanks for pointing it out.
am I blind or do I not see a BKB on you in that dotabuff link? anyway, heart over bloodstone would have been nice. with two lanes down a mjollnir isnt' a bad choice. for a 7th item you can consider refresher too
Anyway basically you can't go much wrong with Phase Bottle Stick Eul. You're fairly low on HP at that stage, so it's a good idea to bulk up a little next. BKB/Atos or casual Vitality is pretty good. Heart is best, but you generally won't get it since it's so expensive. After bulking up HP wise, you usually want Shivas for Armour. Then what you get after is really dependent on the game. You could go Skadi, Refresher, Hex, AC, Linkens, Ghost etc.
I've been trying out this hero recently since his exorcism got buffed early game. Ive had a fair bit of success pushing early and building a lead for my team. My build is Bottle> brown boots > euls > OctoCore > boots of travel. I feel like it is a pretty greedy/risky build. Anyone else having any luck with this hero? Are there any guides you would recommend.
On October 16 2015 17:09 ELlminator1 wrote: I've been trying out this hero recently since his exorcism got buffed early game. Ive had a fair bit of success pushing early and building a lead for my team. My build is Bottle> brown boots > euls > OctoCore > boots of travel. I feel like it is a pretty greedy/risky build. Anyone else having any luck with this hero? Are there any guides you would recommend.
It is easier to take T1 towers with some smart rotations even some kills if you manage to ulti from fog and with some disables. Easy creep clearing secure some item progression for sure in any case. boots-> euls is not greedy at all and seems like the best practice. With the boosters maybe a value armor item should be enough for early-mid game. I don't think it is particularly greedy or risk since the only other option I can think is drums which is inferior to euls for DP, imo.
What happened to me was, if you are against a good teamfight & physical dps, I find hard time to solo tank and either required some another frontline hero or a second survival item(bkb comes to mind for anti-control).
All in all, you need some massive farm to compete with non-slowed core heroes.
Any opinions getting on rod of atos in stead of euls? It seemed kinda cool to me at first but euls can be really great when you have an octarine and you euls yourself when you have the ult up and losing a lot of hp. Nobody can touch you for like 3s and you keep lifestealing.
On October 17 2015 05:58 salad baker wrote: Any opinions getting on rod of atos in stead of euls? It seemed kinda cool to me at first but euls can be really great when you have an octarine and you euls yourself when you have the ult up and losing a lot of hp. Nobody can touch you for like 3s and you keep lifestealing.
i think even getting both is fine sometimes, but euls first is probably better in more games
I was surprised to see that no one has been bumping this thread due to the DP changes.
The hero no longer relies on her ultimate to fight. Spirit Siphon is an amazing tool to chase people and to deal damage in fights. Your ultimate is still what it is, but you have way more damage than before... and way more survivability.
Octarine is even stronger on her now, to the point that I think it's worth rushing it after euls, or even before. I've seen it once, and goddamit, WE CAN'T KILL THE FUCKING DP
I was thinking similarly until I read this Reddit post. The replacement of Witchcraft with Spirit Siphon is very cool, but the lack of a corresponding mana cost reduction to Crypt Swarm and Exorcism's severely slowed spawn rate really hurt. Aside from a handful of picks by Ritsu-era C9, I don't think this hero has been seen at all since TI4, but instead of just getting buffed she gets nerfed as well. Was it really necessary?
I played a couple games as her since the rework and while spirit siphon is a great skill, it doesn't make her any less cool down dependent than she was before. In almost any engagement beyond a quick 2-3v1 pickoff you go through 2-3 siphon charges, each of which takes 45 seconds to come back. In a team fight you definitely want to use all 4, which is an even longer cool down than her ult.
That said, I still really like the ability. In the games I played I maxed it in lane, going 2-0-4-1. At 6-7 if you have full siphon charges you can dive whoever yours against with siphon/ghosts and knock down a tower with a bit of help.
That said, new DP really struggles with mana and has shitty armour. I'm wondering if dark seer type items would make sense - soul ring, wand, greaves, octarine, shivas, something like that. I tried phase euls in one game and just got blown up, as late game I still only had 8 armour or something pathetic.
I almost wish her E and R were magic damage so that veil was useful on her as she'd benefit a lot from everything but the active.
Did anyone try lotus orb? I mean the item gives mana regen, 10 armor and 6 second shell compared to the 3 secs euls. I know it's normally more of a position 3-5 item, but it might be good on her. Guess you might want euls anyways bc everything on the item is great for dp.
DPs like Eul's active because she mitigates the downside by still dealing damage with her ult and it forces the enemy team to either fight under ghosts for 3 seconds or run away both of which are bad ideas. Every little bit of survival is key on DP.
Lotus doesn't help you survive, at least not as universally. You still get hit by whatever spell you reflect and you don't get to avoid every spell like you do with Eul's. So you may reflect a spell, but it's not really a guarantee to get you out of trouble. A lot of lineups may reflect back something like a slow and then just push through it to bring you down, exactly what you try to avoid with Euls.
So it's not even a clearly better active AND Eul's gives you good stats, movespeed (huge for DP to keep good positioning for ghosts), and is far cheaper.
Like Lotus is a great effect to have applied to DP, but it's unclear that she's good to pick up the item herself. You'd be much better off if you had like a Tidehunter with Lotus who could toss it on you to dispell debuffs and save you.
Well Lotus kinda works like blademail and I always thought that a hero like DP really would like blademail if she didnt need other stuff (like health and manaregen). Give them a hard loose loose situation for 6 seconds of ult timing. Orb also has really great stats for dp, it's 1200 for 10 armor over euls. But I can see that people would want euls for the ms and I guess that dp is a worthwile target anyways nondependant on whether you get all your spells reflected at you or not. Also not getting health for two items is probably too long.
On December 26 2015 01:31 evanthebouncy! wrote: Someone should just math it out how much mana this hiro needs and tailor a build around that
I believe eul is no longer key, as someone with a hundred games of dp. It seems the idea is to build her as a pure pushing tank
now that she needs more mana than before, seems to like lik eeuls is more core than ever... not to mention the self-euls while siphoning + exorcisming is still really good to frustrate your opponents for a few key seconds if they want to focus you
Atos seems interesting now too though since it also has the stats DP wants and helps her stay in range of targets. Probably a strong situational depending on the enemy line up.
one note many things forget, she is very weak to silence now. siphon is as important as using ult often when you got silenced with her she had ult up already, now she has a spell she have to use during a fight so a bkb becomes even more valuable to her than ever.
You're not gonna be speed demon anymore without witchcraft speed buff anyways.
Might as well play her stationary. Fast octarine, fast aether lens. Build armour and magic resist for maximum ehp per healing.
Brown boots. Aether. Octarine, atos Shiva,
I think if you want mobility get dagger. No reason for eul. Before eul drum is legit because you get >511 speed from phase boot active. Now you're slow poke regardless, your spirit comes out slow af, no point eul into ult into kill. A different approach is needed.
On January 05 2016 19:00 evanthebouncy! wrote: I was just thinking play her in a different way.
You're not gonna be speed demon anymore without witchcraft speed buff anyways.
Might as well play her stationary. Fast octarine, fast aether lens. Build armour and magic resist for maximum ehp per healing.
Brown boots. Aether. Octarine, atos Shiva,
I think if you want mobility get dagger. No reason for eul. Before eul drum is legit because you get >511 speed from phase boot active. Now you're slow poke regardless, your spirit comes out slow af, no point eul into ult into kill. A different approach is needed.
That exactly what I've tried for the first time, and with Aether Lens Swarm spam is great but the problem is that if you want to deal damage with Exorcism and Siphon you still have to come quite close and you don't have a ton of movement speed or invulnerability anymore, and with those items you are not particularly tanky so it doesn't work that great. Aether Lens is cheap but Octarine costs a ton.
Also, without Witchcraft you are really really mana hungry, more than ever, and I don't think that Aether Lens can solve all of the mana problems, while Octarine costs way too much and you will also have a lot of mana problems while building it.
Don't really know, maybe Lens into Eul, then go for Octarine? Haven't found a good way to build her yet.
On January 06 2016 15:54 evanthebouncy! wrote: let's watch this in the mean time, a gameplay by the saltlord. (title is misleading this isn't a guide )
i believe the build is now phase wand drum eul lotus (atos) (bkb) octarine heartoracorshiva
lotus helps fill in the gap before octarine where you have low armor and makes you have a lot more ehp since you're getting hp by siphoning people hopefully... and the mana regen feels necessary with her new higher mana costs
siphon's slow also is a nice "focus me" thing so lotus helps reflect shit
you still might need atos or hex if you have trouble catchign people... but in general if your team is having trouble with splitpushers and catching, dp hopefully is not your best answer
On January 11 2016 02:35 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: why can any of it go through bkb
because it's pure dmg atm
On January 11 2016 02:17 the bear jew wrote: So right now Soul Siphon is better Pugna ult. Change so just the slow goes through bkb? Or is that still too good?
IDK they are quite different spells
DP + Can move around and it still channels, she can cast other spells. (huge plus) + Gets vision over the enemy, even a silhouette of the invis + Pure dmg + High dmg/lifesteal
Pugna + Can heal teammates (huge plus) + With aghs it has 0 CD + If full hp it drains mana instead
On January 11 2016 02:35 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: why can any of it go through bkb
because it's pure dmg atm
not only is that not the type of answer i was going for with my rhetorical question, that's not even true that all pure damage things go through bkb. purification? chakram?
On January 11 2016 02:17 the bear jew wrote: So right now Soul Siphon is better Pugna ult. Change so just the slow goes through bkb? Or is that still too good?
IDK they are quite different spells
DP + Can move around and it still channels, she can cast other spells. (huge plus) + Gets vision over the enemy, even a silhouette of the invis + Pure dmg + High dmg/lifesteal
Pugna + Can heal teammates (huge plus) + With aghs it has 0 CD + If full hp it drains mana instead
Soul Siphon is better from a pure greedy build. There is very little pugna pro play and the little there is it's carry pugna, so the healing teammates is negligible almost all of the time. It's like saying Terroblade can heal allies with his ult, he can, but he won't.
Sure pugna ult can drain mana if you are full hp but how useful is that? When are you sucking someone at full life when they aren't doing anything back. It's a neat but irrelevant thing.
And Soul siphon has charges so it effectively has 0 cooldown until you are out of charges. And you can link multiple people at once to slow/keep health up. And you can use other spells so I'd say you'd have higher dps with soul siphon then pugna ult.
It's pugna ult on crack. And I wouldn't be surprised if it's getting nerfed after major or maybe even pre-major.
On January 11 2016 02:35 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: why can any of it go through bkb
because it's pure dmg atm
On January 11 2016 02:17 the bear jew wrote: So right now Soul Siphon is better Pugna ult. Change so just the slow goes through bkb? Or is that still too good?
IDK they are quite different spells
DP + Can move around and it still channels, she can cast other spells. (huge plus) + Gets vision over the enemy, even a silhouette of the invis + Pure dmg + High dmg/lifesteal
Pugna + Can heal teammates (huge plus) + With aghs it has 0 CD + If full hp it drains mana instead
Sure pugna ult can drain mana if you are full hp but how useful is that? When are you sucking someone at full life when they aren't doing anything back. It's a neat but irrelevant thing. .
He always drains the enemys health. It's just that if pugna himself is at full he gets mana instead. He never drains mana.
And you are comparing two different skills on two different heroes. Pugna drains more health if the enemy is decrypified for example.
It's a pointless argument. I agree DPs skill might just be a bit too good, but don't see how Pugna is relevant to the discussion.
"Abaddons heal is so bad because Treant protectors works globally". "AMs blink is like a potm leap on crack. Shorter CD and instant teleportation. How is that fair" etc
On January 10 2016 07:50 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: i believe the build is now phase wand drum eul lotus (atos) (bkb) octarine heartoracorshiva
lotus helps fill in the gap before octarine where you have low armor and makes you have a lot more ehp since you're getting hp by siphoning people hopefully... and the mana regen feels necessary with her new higher mana costs
siphon's slow also is a nice "focus me" thing so lotus helps reflect shit
you still might need atos or hex if you have trouble catchign people... but in general if your team is having trouble with splitpushers and catching, dp hopefully is not your best answer
Hey I really like teh idea of Lotus orb after Eul's... I hadn't thought of it myself, but it makes perfect sense, and gives DP a lot of what she needs
On January 11 2016 02:35 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: why can any of it go through bkb
because it's pure dmg atm
On January 11 2016 02:17 the bear jew wrote: So right now Soul Siphon is better Pugna ult. Change so just the slow goes through bkb? Or is that still too good?
IDK they are quite different spells
DP + Can move around and it still channels, she can cast other spells. (huge plus) + Gets vision over the enemy, even a silhouette of the invis + Pure dmg + High dmg/lifesteal
Pugna + Can heal teammates (huge plus) + With aghs it has 0 CD + If full hp it drains mana instead
Sure pugna ult can drain mana if you are full hp but how useful is that? When are you sucking someone at full life when they aren't doing anything back. It's a neat but irrelevant thing. .
He always drains the enemys health. It's just that if pugna himself is at full he gets mana instead. He never drains mana.
And you are comparing two different skills on two different heroes. Pugna drains more health if the enemy is decrypified for example.
It's a pointless argument. I agree DPs skill might just be a bit too good, but don't see how Pugna is relevant to the discussion.
"Abaddons heal is so bad because Treant protectors works globally". "AMs blink is like a potm leap on crack. Shorter CD and instant teleportation. How is that fair" etc
not a pointless argument in ABILITY DRAFT does anyone still play? ;(
also +1 on lotus orb i think this is the missing link.
yea i've tried it a few times but i've only gotten it to work once (mind you i played horrible both times i wasn't effective)
the one time it worked well, i skipped my drum and went phase euls lotus atos ac bkb and it felt the best; but it could've just been a coincidence... not sure
anyway my point is i'm questioning the drum there; it doesn't feel like i get enough tankiness out of spending that 1850 gold and i'd usually rather have eul's earlier actually
lotus still feels nice, but in some games i still get blown up trying to frontline and then that's a disaster
i probably could've gone octarine instead of atos there, and i would've had similar results, but we were fighting at a somewhat frequent pace, so the incremental power increase of atos felt better than octarine there (soul booster provides 450 hp to atos' 350... so actually in retrospect it probably would've been fine, though i think atos helped secure 1 kill we were chasing)
Dunno, the hero is going to get Octocore at one point, the only reason to get drums over casual point booster (or vit booster if you plan to stop in between for atos) is the bit of aoe-speed it provides, which imo isnt worth it in most situations.
On January 14 2016 00:33 ahswtini wrote: i just get euls octocore???
ok!!!!
On January 14 2016 00:32 Blackfeather wrote: Dunno, the hero is going to get Octocore at one point, the only reason to get drums over casual point booster (or vit booster if you plan to stop in between for atos) is the bit of aoe-speed it provides, which imo isnt worth it in most situations.
the attack speed for dp's right clicks at that point aren't bad with phase either, but yea in the end my conclusion was its not worth it
Lotus Orb seems pretty low situational to me? It seems like it misses the point of DP and why you get tanky with her.
If the enemy team has a ton of targeted or AoE magic damage then Lotus Orb is going to struggle a bit because the stats aren't geared towards tanking magical damage and Eul's should already mostly solve mana regen issues. Lotus will make you tankier against right clicks, but even if they partially blows themselves up killing you it's probably worth it for their team since killing a DP with her ult up is a huge win. Soul Siphon helps make DP naturally hp-tanky, but at the same time getting whacked with disables opens up the possibility of people just breaking the leash. So if there's actually a lot of good stuff to reflect it seems just as likely that you'll have trouble using soul siphon as a reliable HP sustain.
It's really important for DP to stay alive, so having her be tanky is important because she doesn't want to be a lightning rod for a bunch of abilities like say a Bristleback. It's the same reason why you don't often make blademail on DP.
Late game when DP is tanky and her damage contribution is going to peak soon I can see making a Lotus Orb, but early on in a build it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Unless the Lotus is going to create incredible trades getting blasted isn't going to go well. A 1 for 1 trade where DP blows her ult is a big win for the other team.
It seems like a casual platemail -> Octarine or Atos would be better (if you are going those anyways). By time you complete the Lotus orb you could be <1000 from having the Soul Booster which also solves your mana regen issues AND gives you a ton of HP to boot. Or you'd be ~500 from Atos and its +30 int. Then once you finish Octarine you can make a Shiva's or Lotus as needed.
yea i agree; casual platemail into oct or atos is the build against lots of midgame magic burst
if its almost all magic burst, it might even be casual cloak (or even hood or pipe) instead of platemail'
but ideally you do want to be a lightning rod, you just want to also survive all that burst. if you eat a few targeted spells and survive, you're likely winning that fight
Whats wrong with DP?We are 2 days in Shangai Major and nobody picks her.Teams often go for push strategies but nobody picks DP even if she is very good in push or anti-push.She took some buffs last patch why they dont pick her now?Is there something that counters her so bad?
On February 28 2016 02:47 phantomlancer23 wrote: Whats wrong with DP?We are 2 days in Shangai Major and nobody picks her.Teams often go for push strategies but nobody picks DP even if she is very good in push or anti-push.She took some buffs last patch why they dont pick her now?Is there something that counters her so bad?
Teams can take advantage of her ulti cd. But I'm sure people will pick her later on in the tournament. Its only 2 days. Obv. she won't be picked everygame because she is strongest in a push lineup. Other mid heroes are more versatile and less one-dimensional.
Yeah, even with the new spell, she's half a hero without the ult and pros are much better at taking advantage of the cooldown.
Hell pros are much better in general in taking advantage of timings. Where in a pub after her ult is down, people farm/don't pressure while she is weak, a pro team will take advantage of it.
Doesn't mean she won't be picked at all, but she has serious weaknesses in competitive that limits her picks.
Look for OG to pick her, Notail played her this patch several times.
On January 14 2016 03:01 Logo wrote: Lotus Orb seems pretty low situational to me? It seems like it misses the point of DP and why you get tanky with her.
If the enemy team has a ton of targeted or AoE magic damage then Lotus Orb is going to struggle a bit because the stats aren't geared towards tanking magical damage and Eul's should already mostly solve mana regen issues. Lotus will make you tankier against right clicks, but even if they partially blows themselves up killing you it's probably worth it for their team since killing a DP with her ult up is a huge win. Soul Siphon helps make DP naturally hp-tanky, but at the same time getting whacked with disables opens up the possibility of people just breaking the leash. So if there's actually a lot of good stuff to reflect it seems just as likely that you'll have trouble using soul siphon as a reliable HP sustain.
It's really important for DP to stay alive, so having her be tanky is important because she doesn't want to be a lightning rod for a bunch of abilities like say a Bristleback. It's the same reason why you don't often make blademail on DP.
Late game when DP is tanky and her damage contribution is going to peak soon I can see making a Lotus Orb, but early on in a build it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Unless the Lotus is going to create incredible trades getting blasted isn't going to go well. A 1 for 1 trade where DP blows her ult is a big win for the other team.
It seems like a casual platemail -> Octarine or Atos would be better (if you are going those anyways). By time you complete the Lotus orb you could be <1000 from having the Soul Booster which also solves your mana regen issues AND gives you a ton of HP to boot. Or you'd be ~500 from Atos and its +30 int. Then once you finish Octarine you can make a Shiva's or Lotus as needed.
I agree that you probably need some health before lotus becomes worth it. But I think lotus actually has a lot of synergy with syphon. Your drain targets can't stun and run and armor increases ehp without increasing hp, so you drain more efficient life. Also similar to blademail, lotus stops the enemy from just zapping you, because most players don't want to get zapped back. So in that way it works similar to euls, it gives you a timed "don't hit me" period. I'm not sure if I'd choose it over shivas once I have enough gold to have bought an octo-core.
On paper DP is a classical small items hero. She usually is on a timer and wants to tank up and get objectives before the enemies carry just becomes fat enough to shred her and ignore her damage. In that regard I think it's a mistake to rush octo-core too hard. I think euls->atos->Lotus gives you lots of survivability and utility to try to go hg. Mb even go euls->vit/point booster->platemail->atos/oc->lotus or pb->euls->lotus->oc.
ive played quite a bit of DP this patch , and i think sometimes maxing siphon first is the way to go. if your mid against a kunkka , dk or pudge this ability is so punishing, just makes it impossible to trade with you. im liking 2-0-4-1 or 4-0-4-0 at the moment. if your against a ranged mid that outlanes you , like viper or invoker , maxing crypt however is still the way to go
On March 03 2016 19:17 Irratonalys wrote: ive played quite a bit of DP this patch , and i think sometimes maxing siphon first is the way to go. if your mid against a kunkka , dk or pudge this ability is so punishing, just makes it impossible to trade with you. im liking 2-0-4-1 or 4-0-4-0 at the moment. if your against a ranged mid that outlanes you , like viper or invoker , maxing crypt however is still the way to go
ive been able to win against a wex invoker with 3041 dp, but your mileage may vary
I still think a value point in silence is desirable but I agree with the max soul siphon. The hero is quick and can severely punish you for contesting a rune of even over extending by a little tiny bit for a last hit.
After Euls you should probably aim for bkb+octarine+shivas in no particular order. Atos / Hex / Heart / AC / Skadi still good options too. Lotus orb / Refresher / Linkens situational. Don't think Aether lens is that good on her but seen some build it, still prefer other stuff.
shivas octarine feels really difficult to achieve, and i don't think you should really be in the position to be able to farm that much whether from a lead or from behind.
still it's pubsy wubsy games we're talking about, so i don't see why those two items aren't staple if you know you can get them in time.
way back when, bloodstone used to be a thing, barely anyone favors it (minus lesh) over octarine anymore.
Ok so Phase + Bottle + Wand + Euls + BKB + Shivas = 13915 gold. That's not a lot for a mid to achieve at all. With octarine it's 19815 which is a bit higher but you see networths like that pretty much every game.
According to My source datdota pros gets Euls + BKB + Shivas on average at 33minutes. And DP has 50% winrate so that includes the losses as well. Those are definitely achievable items in a normal game. They also manage to get Octarine core at average 28min.
In this very recent game Fata has 14k networth at 27min. + Show Spoiler +
Definitely think you can average it on 30-35min very consistently. Then octarine after that if you went for that build.
On March 08 2016 06:31 trinxified wrote: Octarine is definitely the best item for this hero, even as a first item if possible.
DP is so good with reduced cooldowns overall, and can carry a whole team with that ultimate.
Rushing the Octarine probably isn't the best route, but definitely core for sure.
i think you need euls no matter what because of the increased mana cost on q and slight one on e adding to her mana burden relative to rpevious patches, plus you still love everything else it gives
then you choose either lotus orb or oct for finishing out the mana regen problem
if yougo bloodstone you might want some kind of smaller armor item like blademail or puppeybuckler
if youre against more magic stuff and lockdown youll need a bkb of course
if physical becomes a problem sooner, you go ghost + shiva or ac or lotus or some combination
octarine has a semi-good buildup for DP. you can even consider completing the soul booster as first item, then go on to get your Euls at that point since the bad part about octarine as first item is saving for the 2700 gold mystic staff.
I can confirm that the level of farm Chopper recommends is easily achievable. do you want the game to go over 30 min? probably not depending on the heroes you're playing against..but it is definitely something that is achievable.
So is heart still good for DP? I remember the old tanky builds on her with the beastly sustain with heart. I know people would rather much prefer OC since she can just spam more of her Q and life drain.
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