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On February 11 2014 04:59 Hagen0 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 04:35 Noya wrote:
He can also jungle starting at lvl1, ~300gpm rate in the first 10 minutes Please explain how you to that. I'd appreciate it.
QB+Stout Shield, you can ask some tangos for insurance but it's not needed, start with either Meta or Conjure Image, with Meta you can hit and run camps, with CI you use the illusion to tank until its low and then transfer aggro to main hero. Aim for a Lifesteal mask first, try to minimize damage done to main hero with Illusion/hit and run/choke point, although be conservative with your mana as CI costs a lot early on. You can suicide after the first 900g purchase, but lifesteal+meta can top your HP very fast. Then get HotD and stack ancients while finishing Treads/Yasha. Metamorphosed TB can clear a 5 stacked ancient camp with just HotD and Treads.
Some replays here (stomps not worth watching after the 15min mark, but they properly show the method).
http://dotabuff.com/matches/513947351 (Radiant)
http://dotabuff.com/matches/513161739 (Dire)
Found another, more interesting game (albeit said) starting on Dire jungle http://dotabuff.com/players/86718505
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Thank you. I will try that out.
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Just tried it against bots to get a feel for it, I'm surprised how well it works. The CI can only tank for a short while, but it's enough to get you going and once you get lifesteal mask, you can pretty much sustain any camp. I even had a tango left when I got my mask. The problem seems to be mana conservation, one should probably not use CI while using meta to conserve mana. Since leveling CI only raises damage, you can get reflection pretty early, which makes for quite the ganking potential. Go in, reflect, Meta, get kill, go back and use up meta in jungle.
Honestly, it worked so well that I'm definitely going to jungle TB next time someone steals safe lane.
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Oh god.
What this game did not need is another afk 20 minutes jungle carry.
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It feels a bit unbalanced hero, fIrst game with terrorblade and i get 9 1 9.
He feels really squishy early with a slow that just maybe to good to garantuee first blood. Then its farming till drums and everything falls into place as manta isnt far behind with multifarm. He wrecks everything really early, doesnt have to snowball, hes just that good if uncontested. And if he is splitpushing, the enemy needs 2 hero's back because the ultimate is ridiculous.
I think best way to stop him is an early gank, but in pubs the coordination is not allways good enough.
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i just randomed this hero again, and it was an easy win again. I was going highground at ~17 minutes with treads, manta and a half skadi clicking my illusions on the tower and getting the tower despite 5 players trying to stop me. Ridicilous hero, and they even had a lot of nukes, didn't matter just rolled right over them.
/E i just checked my dotabuff and i have a new record, highest tower damage terrorblade 1 hour ago. lol
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On February 12 2014 07:11 govie wrote:
It feels a bit unbalanced hero, fIrst game with terrorblade and i get 9 1 9.
He feels really squishy early with a slow that just maybe to good to garantuee first blood. Then its farming till drums and everything falls into place as manta isnt far behind with multifarm. He wrecks everything really early, doesnt have to snowball, hes just that good if uncontested. And if he is splitpushing, the enemy needs 2 hero's back because the ultimate is ridiculous.
I think best way to stop him is an early gank, but in pubs the coordination is not allways good enough.
Don't get Drums. Just leave it at a Bracer if you really need HP. If you really want the HP + Mana, a casual Point Booster is better. Just don't get Drums on this hero that doesn't really need the MS.
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On February 12 2014 13:22 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 07:11 govie wrote:
It feels a bit unbalanced hero, fIrst game with terrorblade and i get 9 1 9.
He feels really squishy early with a slow that just maybe to good to garantuee first blood. Then its farming till drums and everything falls into place as manta isnt far behind with multifarm. He wrecks everything really early, doesnt have to snowball, hes just that good if uncontested. And if he is splitpushing, the enemy needs 2 hero's back because the ultimate is ridiculous.
I think best way to stop him is an early gank, but in pubs the coordination is not allways good enough. Don't get Drums. Just leave it at a Bracer if you really need HP. If you really want the HP + Mana, a casual Point Booster is better. Just don't get Drums on this hero that doesn't really need the MS.
the int from drums will help your mana regen which you need for making illusions and the aura helps you push a little better, i think it's worth it, and it gives you that little bit of extra escape which is important cos you don't have an innate one
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Lalalaland34502 Posts
Haven't had problems with mana with Treads switching and the occasional clarity shipped out to me. While the aura helps, Yasha does enough for that too.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On February 12 2014 19:32 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 13:22 DucK- wrote:On February 12 2014 07:11 govie wrote:
It feels a bit unbalanced hero, fIrst game with terrorblade and i get 9 1 9.
He feels really squishy early with a slow that just maybe to good to garantuee first blood. Then its farming till drums and everything falls into place as manta isnt far behind with multifarm. He wrecks everything really early, doesnt have to snowball, hes just that good if uncontested. And if he is splitpushing, the enemy needs 2 hero's back because the ultimate is ridiculous.
I think best way to stop him is an early gank, but in pubs the coordination is not allways good enough. Don't get Drums. Just leave it at a Bracer if you really need HP. If you really want the HP + Mana, a casual Point Booster is better. Just don't get Drums on this hero that doesn't really need the MS. the int from drums will help your mana regen which you need for making illusions and the aura helps you push a little better, i think it's worth it, and it gives you that little bit of extra escape which is important cos you don't have an innate one
buy null to the bracer. Same str, same int, 3 less agility, 3 more damage, no MS/AS bonus but 800 gold cheaper :D
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On February 12 2014 20:26 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 19:32 rauk wrote:On February 12 2014 13:22 DucK- wrote:On February 12 2014 07:11 govie wrote:
It feels a bit unbalanced hero, fIrst game with terrorblade and i get 9 1 9.
He feels really squishy early with a slow that just maybe to good to garantuee first blood. Then its farming till drums and everything falls into place as manta isnt far behind with multifarm. He wrecks everything really early, doesnt have to snowball, hes just that good if uncontested. And if he is splitpushing, the enemy needs 2 hero's back because the ultimate is ridiculous.
I think best way to stop him is an early gank, but in pubs the coordination is not allways good enough. Don't get Drums. Just leave it at a Bracer if you really need HP. If you really want the HP + Mana, a casual Point Booster is better. Just don't get Drums on this hero that doesn't really need the MS. the int from drums will help your mana regen which you need for making illusions and the aura helps you push a little better, i think it's worth it, and it gives you that little bit of extra escape which is important cos you don't have an innate one buy null to the bracer. Same str, same int, 3 less agility, 3 more damage, no MS/AS bonus but 800 gold cheaper :D
????? drum charges and aura are useful for the entire team and it's an item you'll be holding onto until you're 6 slotted. buying a null that you'll sell pretty quickly is inefficient as hell and doesn't build into anything unless you're doing a troll dagon build
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[meme]I bought the drums because someone on this forum went on a 17 game winstreak with TB, i basically followed his itembuild [/meme=colour nyancat]
Maybe null+bracer or bracer+manastatring is better tho thinking about it. But drums saves 1 slot, dont forget that after this statgain you will farm so fast that there arent enough slots anyway. Same goes for Naga.
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i remember this beeing my favourite hero in dota.
The only heroes i can gain positive win ratios without trying too hard are him and puck.
Hes one of the heroes thats incredibly strong at a lower - mid level, and looses strength against players that counterpick or outplay him by knowing exactly what he does.
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Let's not have this Drum debate again, let people who still thinks Drums is a good item to be rushed on hard carries because it gives 80 mana and and 60 HP over a Bracer for 1350 gold keep building it. Null is bad too, the hero has no manapool issues with Tread switching and an occasional RoB/Aquila if you feel like it. It only makes sense to get Drums if you are going for a fighting Phase+SnY build, which is a suboptimal way to play him, but it can work.
Regardless of that, you want a Yasha ASAP to start farming jungle and lane at the same time.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On February 12 2014 22:09 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 20:26 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 12 2014 19:32 rauk wrote:On February 12 2014 13:22 DucK- wrote:On February 12 2014 07:11 govie wrote:
It feels a bit unbalanced hero, fIrst game with terrorblade and i get 9 1 9.
He feels really squishy early with a slow that just maybe to good to garantuee first blood. Then its farming till drums and everything falls into place as manta isnt far behind with multifarm. He wrecks everything really early, doesnt have to snowball, hes just that good if uncontested. And if he is splitpushing, the enemy needs 2 hero's back because the ultimate is ridiculous.
I think best way to stop him is an early gank, but in pubs the coordination is not allways good enough. Don't get Drums. Just leave it at a Bracer if you really need HP. If you really want the HP + Mana, a casual Point Booster is better. Just don't get Drums on this hero that doesn't really need the MS. the int from drums will help your mana regen which you need for making illusions and the aura helps you push a little better, i think it's worth it, and it gives you that little bit of extra escape which is important cos you don't have an innate one buy null to the bracer. Same str, same int, 3 less agility, 3 more damage, no MS/AS bonus but 800 gold cheaper :D ????? drum charges and aura are useful for the entire team and it's an item you'll be holding onto until you're 6 slotted. buying a null that you'll sell pretty quickly is inefficient as hell and doesn't build into anything unless you're doing a troll dagon build
Buying a null gives you (with bracer) all mana you will ever need as TB (but treads exist so this does not matter). Drums are a good support item for exactly this reason you mentioned (especially considering that if you think about it, drums aura and charges scale over time, just like vlads aura), but buying this on carries (ranged ones especially)... meh.
On February 13 2014 00:51 Noya wrote:
Let's not have this Drum debate again, let people who still thinks Drums is a good item to be rushed on hard carries because it gives 80 mana and and 60 HP over a Bracer for 1350 gold keep building it. Null is bad too, the hero has no manapool issues with Tread switching and an occasional RoB/Aquila if you feel like it. It only makes sense to get Drums if you are going for a fighting Phase+SnY build, which is a suboptimal way to play him, but it can work.
Regardless of that, you want a Yasha ASAP to start farming jungle and lane at the same time.
Null is bad, but if you really want to have that mana (that you don't because treads) it is still better than to complete these drums. And yes, Yasha is like core item on him.
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i disagree with drums being bad pickup on TB, TB actually has fairly big problems with closing the distance so he can get off reflection/sunder on enemies
both the passive and active movespeed from drums help with that a lot. i also like phases on him over treads for this same reason; i find that with phases he has really good killing potential even without assistance from teammates, which he otherwise lacks.
as an anecdote i'd like to show that meracle seems to believe in building TB with phase+drums like i do, and his stats on TB (83% winrate, 4.38 KDA, WHOPPING 758 average gpm) are very impressive. i'd especially like people to notice that average gpm which illustrates that even when going for a more midgamey killing build instead of just afk farming and split pushing, he will still farm very well.
http://dotabuff.com/players/91369376/matches?hero=terrorblade&game_mode=&match_type=real
that said, the build is of course situational and you can see that occasionally meracle does the more common treads radiance split push build. either way people shouldn't underestimate TB's capability as a phase+drums midgame carry.
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In one of the games Meracle stacked 3 S&Y.  Yesterday some guy flamed for getting one.
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I always thought drums were seen as nice movespeed with bonus stats instead of nice stats with bonus move speed, hence why they are usually taken on heroes that need speed (CM, naix, lina), are already fast (luna, lina, CK, DP) and don't mind some extra durability.
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On February 13 2014 01:11 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 22:09 rauk wrote:On February 12 2014 20:26 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 12 2014 19:32 rauk wrote:On February 12 2014 13:22 DucK- wrote:On February 12 2014 07:11 govie wrote:
It feels a bit unbalanced hero, fIrst game with terrorblade and i get 9 1 9.
He feels really squishy early with a slow that just maybe to good to garantuee first blood. Then its farming till drums and everything falls into place as manta isnt far behind with multifarm. He wrecks everything really early, doesnt have to snowball, hes just that good if uncontested. And if he is splitpushing, the enemy needs 2 hero's back because the ultimate is ridiculous.
I think best way to stop him is an early gank, but in pubs the coordination is not allways good enough. Don't get Drums. Just leave it at a Bracer if you really need HP. If you really want the HP + Mana, a casual Point Booster is better. Just don't get Drums on this hero that doesn't really need the MS. the int from drums will help your mana regen which you need for making illusions and the aura helps you push a little better, i think it's worth it, and it gives you that little bit of extra escape which is important cos you don't have an innate one buy null to the bracer. Same str, same int, 3 less agility, 3 more damage, no MS/AS bonus but 800 gold cheaper :D ????? drum charges and aura are useful for the entire team and it's an item you'll be holding onto until you're 6 slotted. buying a null that you'll sell pretty quickly is inefficient as hell and doesn't build into anything unless you're doing a troll dagon build Buying a null gives you (with bracer) all mana you will ever need as TB (but treads exist so this does not matter). Drums are a good support item for exactly this reason you mentioned (especially considering that if you think about it, drums aura and charges scale over time, just like vlads aura), but buying this on carries (ranged ones especially)... meh. Show nested quote +On February 13 2014 00:51 Noya wrote:
Let's not have this Drum debate again, let people who still thinks Drums is a good item to be rushed on hard carries because it gives 80 mana and and 60 HP over a Bracer for 1350 gold keep building it. Null is bad too, the hero has no manapool issues with Tread switching and an occasional RoB/Aquila if you feel like it. It only makes sense to get Drums if you are going for a fighting Phase+SnY build, which is a suboptimal way to play him, but it can work.
Regardless of that, you want a Yasha ASAP to start farming jungle and lane at the same time. Null is bad, but if you really want to have that mana (that you don't because treads) it is still better than to complete these drums. And yes, Yasha is like core item on him.
Drums aura do not scale over time. Your MS is likely to be ~300 (average base MS?) + 50 from Phase/Treads. As the aura is a percentage of your MS, Drums always give you around +18 MS. With the active, it gives an additional ~+50. Other MS items like Yasha and Phase active (except Eul) are also percentage based which means whether or not it's early game or late game, Drums will add the same amount.
With that said, Phase active gives 16% MS. This means that if you went for Treads + Drums, you are never going to run faster than if you got Phase. Which again means that if you went for Treads and claimed you really needed MS from Drums, then why the heck are you not getting Phase in the first place. Notable heroes that fall into this category would be Luna, Sniper, Drow, TB, Razor, Medusa.
On February 13 2014 01:17 iv~nk~j wrote:i disagree with drums being bad pickup on TB, TB actually has fairly big problems with closing the distance so he can get off reflection/sunder on enemies both the passive and active movespeed from drums help with that a lot. i also like phases on him over treads for this same reason; i find that with phases he has really good killing potential even without assistance from teammates, which he otherwise lacks. as an anecdote i'd like to show that meracle seems to believe in building TB with phase+drums like i do, and his stats on TB (83% winrate, 4.38 KDA, WHOPPING 758 average gpm) are very impressive. i'd especially like people to notice that average gpm which illustrates that even when going for a more midgamey killing build instead of just afk farming and split pushing, he will still farm very well. http://dotabuff.com/players/91369376/matches?hero=terrorblade&game_mode=&match_type=realthat said, the build is of course situational and you can see that occasionally meracle does the more common treads radiance split push build. either way people shouldn't underestimate TB's capability as a phase+drums midgame carry.
I generally disagree with looking at 'pro players' games, especially when high winrate and GPM are cited. A quick look at his TB games and you can see how often he is always playing in a stack with 'snow', 'ranto', xfreedom, and dafa-.
Regardless, my stance on Drums is this:
1) If you are getting it solely for the stats, then a Bracer + Null is a cheaper alternative with comparable stats. Then again do you really need the extra 60 HP and 80 Mana that you need to upgrade the Bracer or get an extra Null? Also note that a Point Booster provides slightly greater amount of HP/MP than Drums, and can be upgraded into something useful.
2) If you are getting Drums for a supposed DPS boost due to its AS component, then I'm sorry you have no basis for argument. 5AS/15AS has an insignificant impact to your attack speed. It is just a pathetic bonus 0.03/0.09 attacks per second.
3) If you are getting Drums for the stats and MS, then it may be valid to get it provided a) you are using Phase, and b) the hero really needs the MS. Pretty much every ranged hero (except TA) fails part b because they do not suffer from kiting issues. CK is probably the only hero that can go Treads + Drums because he benefits from the stats Drums + Treads give, needs the AS that Treads provide, and have a 'boots advantage' (393 - 350 = 43MS) with the aura, and situationally can use the active well. Phase + Drums on him is an overkill in MS.
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i don't know how you can say that phase+drums is an overkill on him in MS
there really isn't such thing as overkill in MS until you reach the 522 cap, more MS is always strictly beneficial
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EPT
