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On February 05 2014 19:37 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 18:45 MotherOfRunes wrote:On February 05 2014 03:38 DucK- wrote:On February 04 2014 23:43 KOFgokuon wrote:
while midas and heart I agree, drums are great on him. He needs the mana early game, extra stats damage and the extra utility are all great Drums is an overpriced and overrated item that give shitty stats. You only get it for the Charges. TB doesn't really need them. If you want it for the Stats, just get 2 Bracer/Wraith. Drums used to be great before the damage nerf. Now you shouldn't be getting it on any hero except CK. what the heck did i just read?!?!?! drums is one of the best and most cost efficient items ingame roflmao even after the nerf Which nerf? I have heard of at least 2 nerfs and 1 rebalance (amount of charges). And tbh, i prefer casual ultimate orb over drums on someone who actually has item that builds out of this like it is on.... all agi carries.
ultimate orb is probably the worst item of the game cost efficiency wise, I wouldn't do that.
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On February 01 2014 15:23 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 14:15 idonthinksobro wrote:On February 01 2014 13:35 Zealos wrote:
I think SnY into small crit then Bfly/Skadi/Maybe Lifesteal then finishing your crit into heart.
I have to disagree with people who think this guy isnt lategame, he is absurdly strong late.
EDIT: And slot in BKB where appropriate Yes he is strong lategame but he is also strong really early in the game peaking around lvl 7 when you have 4 in metamorphosis. If you simply start gaming when you have a manta there are not many heros that will stand a chance unless they have a lot of nukes or a lot of stuns in that case you need a bkb too. This pretty much. He is kind of like luna-gyro decent early game (aka can secure kills in early game), good mid game (due to conjure image+meta giving him dmg level of full agi morph and drow) and seriously strong lategame (due to having almost all of his stuff scale with items and levels including opponents ones).
All of the rest is pretty true but his late game is his greatest weakness to be honest. His peak comes when its midgame and he is on level items with enemy carry but has metamorph and manta and four illusions total. Late game he pretty much cant fight as long as metamorph is down unless he has a huge item advantage. Too over reliant on metamorph so he cant be kited around, and melee illusions are largely useless as you dont have blink like say, AM to crowd around someone and eat all his mana, and just ends up blocking the way for your main hero most of the time.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On February 07 2014 10:37 cArn- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 19:37 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 05 2014 18:45 MotherOfRunes wrote:On February 05 2014 03:38 DucK- wrote:On February 04 2014 23:43 KOFgokuon wrote:
while midas and heart I agree, drums are great on him. He needs the mana early game, extra stats damage and the extra utility are all great Drums is an overpriced and overrated item that give shitty stats. You only get it for the Charges. TB doesn't really need them. If you want it for the Stats, just get 2 Bracer/Wraith. Drums used to be great before the damage nerf. Now you shouldn't be getting it on any hero except CK. what the heck did i just read?!?!?! drums is one of the best and most cost efficient items ingame roflmao even after the nerf Which nerf? I have heard of at least 2 nerfs and 1 rebalance (amount of charges). And tbh, i prefer casual ultimate orb over drums on someone who actually has item that builds out of this like it is on.... all agi carries. ultimate orb is probably the worst item of the game cost efficiency wise, I wouldn't do that.
Hence i don't get it unless i already have something like point booster, perse or yasha. Drums are highly situational for me on someone who can use well everything it provides and i am certain i won't get a freefarm for couple of minutes for something more luxurious.
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On February 07 2014 10:46 DougJDempsey wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 15:23 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 01 2014 14:15 idonthinksobro wrote:On February 01 2014 13:35 Zealos wrote:
I think SnY into small crit then Bfly/Skadi/Maybe Lifesteal then finishing your crit into heart.
I have to disagree with people who think this guy isnt lategame, he is absurdly strong late.
EDIT: And slot in BKB where appropriate Yes he is strong lategame but he is also strong really early in the game peaking around lvl 7 when you have 4 in metamorphosis. If you simply start gaming when you have a manta there are not many heros that will stand a chance unless they have a lot of nukes or a lot of stuns in that case you need a bkb too. This pretty much. He is kind of like luna-gyro decent early game (aka can secure kills in early game), good mid game (due to conjure image+meta giving him dmg level of full agi morph and drow) and seriously strong lategame (due to having almost all of his stuff scale with items and levels including opponents ones). All of the rest is pretty true but his late game is his greatest weakness to be honest. His peak comes when its midgame and he is on level items with enemy carry but has metamorph and manta and four illusions total. Late game he pretty much cant fight as long as metamorph is down unless he has a huge item advantage. Too over reliant on metamorph so he cant be kited around, and melee illusions are largely useless as you dont have blink like say, AM to crowd around someone and eat all his mana, and just ends up blocking the way for your main hero most of the time.
I think he can also build a farm advantage if you choose to go early or early-ish radiance. In this way he becomes like naga (especially the TI2 naga), compensating for his weakness by out farming the other carry.
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On February 07 2014 10:46 DougJDempsey wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 15:23 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 01 2014 14:15 idonthinksobro wrote:On February 01 2014 13:35 Zealos wrote:
I think SnY into small crit then Bfly/Skadi/Maybe Lifesteal then finishing your crit into heart.
I have to disagree with people who think this guy isnt lategame, he is absurdly strong late.
EDIT: And slot in BKB where appropriate Yes he is strong lategame but he is also strong really early in the game peaking around lvl 7 when you have 4 in metamorphosis. If you simply start gaming when you have a manta there are not many heros that will stand a chance unless they have a lot of nukes or a lot of stuns in that case you need a bkb too. This pretty much. He is kind of like luna-gyro decent early game (aka can secure kills in early game), good mid game (due to conjure image+meta giving him dmg level of full agi morph and drow) and seriously strong lategame (due to having almost all of his stuff scale with items and levels including opponents ones). All of the rest is pretty true but his late game is his greatest weakness to be honest. His peak comes when its midgame and he is on level items with enemy carry but has metamorph and manta and four illusions total. Late game he pretty much cant fight as long as metamorph is down unless he has a huge item advantage. Too over reliant on metamorph so he cant be kited around, and melee illusions are largely useless as you dont have blink like say, AM to crowd around someone and eat all his mana, and just ends up blocking the way for your main hero most of the time.
I don't know, I think it depends on what you're up against. It's true that you can only fight with meta is up, then again, if you use it on cooldown, you have it up more than 30% of the time, it's usually not hard to time it so that fights happens as it comes off cooldown, then farm until it's up again. Also, I just feel like while some hard carries can outcarry him in a 1v1, TB just makes teamfights hell for opponents since his illusions do so much damage (and if you have good items, tank a lot). The fact that you can enter a fight with 3 illusions and then keep spawning illusions as it happens is so strong, reflection shuts down melee carries pretty hard for 5 seconds as long as people know how to kite (and obviously, does massive damage on enemy carries, regardless of your own farm).
It all comes down to meta being up, but I think a six slot TB with meta up is a bigger deal in teamfights lategame than most other carries, especially if he has good micro (a single meta illusion on a support will probably force the support to run away from the fight) and gets a nice sunder use off.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On February 07 2014 16:39 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 10:46 DougJDempsey wrote:On February 01 2014 15:23 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 01 2014 14:15 idonthinksobro wrote:On February 01 2014 13:35 Zealos wrote:
I think SnY into small crit then Bfly/Skadi/Maybe Lifesteal then finishing your crit into heart.
I have to disagree with people who think this guy isnt lategame, he is absurdly strong late.
EDIT: And slot in BKB where appropriate Yes he is strong lategame but he is also strong really early in the game peaking around lvl 7 when you have 4 in metamorphosis. If you simply start gaming when you have a manta there are not many heros that will stand a chance unless they have a lot of nukes or a lot of stuns in that case you need a bkb too. This pretty much. He is kind of like luna-gyro decent early game (aka can secure kills in early game), good mid game (due to conjure image+meta giving him dmg level of full agi morph and drow) and seriously strong lategame (due to having almost all of his stuff scale with items and levels including opponents ones). All of the rest is pretty true but his late game is his greatest weakness to be honest. His peak comes when its midgame and he is on level items with enemy carry but has metamorph and manta and four illusions total. Late game he pretty much cant fight as long as metamorph is down unless he has a huge item advantage. Too over reliant on metamorph so he cant be kited around, and melee illusions are largely useless as you dont have blink like say, AM to crowd around someone and eat all his mana, and just ends up blocking the way for your main hero most of the time. I don't know, I think it depends on what you're up against. It's true that you can only fight with meta is up, then again, if you use it on cooldown, you have it up more than 30% of the time, it's usually not hard to time it so that fights happens as it comes off cooldown, then farm until it's up again. Also, I just feel like while some hard carries can outcarry him in a 1v1, TB just makes teamfights hell for opponents since his illusions do so much damage (and if you have good items, tank a lot). The fact that you can enter a fight with 3 illusions and then keep spawning illusions as it happens is so strong, reflection shuts down melee carries pretty hard for 5 seconds as long as people know how to kite (and obviously, does massive damage on enemy carries, regardless of your own farm). It all comes down to meta being up, but I think a six slot TB with meta up is a bigger deal in teamfights lategame than most other carries, especially if he has good micro (a single meta illusion on a support will probably force the support to run away from the fight) and gets a nice sunder use off.
six slot tb actually outcarries almost all carries. Perhaps void can lock him out and kill during 6 seconds of chrono (though i have problems imagining void doing enough dps to cut though 3,7k HP with 30+ armor in 6 seconds before sunder, wil probably require focus fire of whole team), or dusa can try to get rid of illusions with split shot (DR is a must then lol), or 7 slotted spectre killing 3 of tb's teammates. Volvo rightfully gave him 3 stars :D.
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On February 07 2014 22:15 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 16:39 Tobberoth wrote:On February 07 2014 10:46 DougJDempsey wrote:On February 01 2014 15:23 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 01 2014 14:15 idonthinksobro wrote:On February 01 2014 13:35 Zealos wrote:
I think SnY into small crit then Bfly/Skadi/Maybe Lifesteal then finishing your crit into heart.
I have to disagree with people who think this guy isnt lategame, he is absurdly strong late.
EDIT: And slot in BKB where appropriate Yes he is strong lategame but he is also strong really early in the game peaking around lvl 7 when you have 4 in metamorphosis. If you simply start gaming when you have a manta there are not many heros that will stand a chance unless they have a lot of nukes or a lot of stuns in that case you need a bkb too. This pretty much. He is kind of like luna-gyro decent early game (aka can secure kills in early game), good mid game (due to conjure image+meta giving him dmg level of full agi morph and drow) and seriously strong lategame (due to having almost all of his stuff scale with items and levels including opponents ones). All of the rest is pretty true but his late game is his greatest weakness to be honest. His peak comes when its midgame and he is on level items with enemy carry but has metamorph and manta and four illusions total. Late game he pretty much cant fight as long as metamorph is down unless he has a huge item advantage. Too over reliant on metamorph so he cant be kited around, and melee illusions are largely useless as you dont have blink like say, AM to crowd around someone and eat all his mana, and just ends up blocking the way for your main hero most of the time. I don't know, I think it depends on what you're up against. It's true that you can only fight with meta is up, then again, if you use it on cooldown, you have it up more than 30% of the time, it's usually not hard to time it so that fights happens as it comes off cooldown, then farm until it's up again. Also, I just feel like while some hard carries can outcarry him in a 1v1, TB just makes teamfights hell for opponents since his illusions do so much damage (and if you have good items, tank a lot). The fact that you can enter a fight with 3 illusions and then keep spawning illusions as it happens is so strong, reflection shuts down melee carries pretty hard for 5 seconds as long as people know how to kite (and obviously, does massive damage on enemy carries, regardless of your own farm). It all comes down to meta being up, but I think a six slot TB with meta up is a bigger deal in teamfights lategame than most other carries, especially if he has good micro (a single meta illusion on a support will probably force the support to run away from the fight) and gets a nice sunder use off. six slot tb actually outcarries almost all carries. Perhaps void can lock him out and kill during 6 seconds of chrono (though i have problems imagining void doing enough dps to cut though 3,7k HP with 30+ armor in 6 seconds before sunder, wil probably require focus fire of whole team), or dusa can try to get rid of illusions with split shot (DR is a must then lol), or 7 slotted spectre killing 3 of tb's teammates. Volvo rightfully gave him 3 stars :D.
I agree with this man. Late game tb is devastating
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TB is downright broken for various reasons. He's too strong in the lane for a carry that scales so well, his midgame is too strong with his ability to destroy towers at Lycan speeds, and he scales ridiculously well even if he is dependent on Meta. You have to suppress him hard, and even then he hardly needs items to actually contribute to the team. You absolutely have to tri-lane against him to prevent him from snowballing, which isn't easy to do considering level 2 TB along with his other 2 supports can easily kill anyone.
If you solo an offlaner like Mirana, Weaver, etc. you're just asking to lose. He has such high base armor that he can just shrug off most of their harass and just continue to farm all day.
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try nuking him once before 30 minutes. hes about as tanky as a paper bag
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On February 09 2014 07:51 Doomblaze wrote:
try nuking him once before 30 minutes. hes about as tanky as a paper bag
Good TB gets bkb and/or skadi way before 30 minutes.
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Early game though a strong nuker really makes Tb cry. He also isn't that strong a laner. If you have the advantage in the lane (i.e. against a single offlaner) Tb is an amazing bully. However, against a strong dual lane Tb can't do much even with support. Again good nukes and range are the key.
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On February 10 2014 01:01 Hagen0 wrote:
Early game though a strong nuker really makes Tb cry. He also isn't that strong a laner. If you have the advantage in the lane (i.e. against a single offlaner) Tb is an amazing bully. However, against a strong dual lane Tb can't do much even with support. Again good nukes and range are the key.
i disagree even if you kill him a lot he just needs 1 item usually manta or sny is enough to send illusions at the tower. It doesn't matter if you kill him early, even the worst of the worst can farm 1 item and eat towers. Especially because t1 towers don't have backdoor protection they will fall even if you keep the lanes pushed out.
If you have a manta at level 10 or something, go meta send your 3 illusions at the tower the tower will drop 20-25%, without creeps.
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He's really strong against certain lineups that lack massive nuking ability. If he enemy team has a few nukers and devote a little effort into ganking him, he ends up having a very hard time ever getting big enough to be a threat. Most important thing is having nukers and a reliable stun vs him so he doesn't sunder you.
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On February 07 2014 22:15 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 16:39 Tobberoth wrote:On February 07 2014 10:46 DougJDempsey wrote:On February 01 2014 15:23 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 01 2014 14:15 idonthinksobro wrote:On February 01 2014 13:35 Zealos wrote:
I think SnY into small crit then Bfly/Skadi/Maybe Lifesteal then finishing your crit into heart.
I have to disagree with people who think this guy isnt lategame, he is absurdly strong late.
EDIT: And slot in BKB where appropriate Yes he is strong lategame but he is also strong really early in the game peaking around lvl 7 when you have 4 in metamorphosis. If you simply start gaming when you have a manta there are not many heros that will stand a chance unless they have a lot of nukes or a lot of stuns in that case you need a bkb too. This pretty much. He is kind of like luna-gyro decent early game (aka can secure kills in early game), good mid game (due to conjure image+meta giving him dmg level of full agi morph and drow) and seriously strong lategame (due to having almost all of his stuff scale with items and levels including opponents ones). All of the rest is pretty true but his late game is his greatest weakness to be honest. His peak comes when its midgame and he is on level items with enemy carry but has metamorph and manta and four illusions total. Late game he pretty much cant fight as long as metamorph is down unless he has a huge item advantage. Too over reliant on metamorph so he cant be kited around, and melee illusions are largely useless as you dont have blink like say, AM to crowd around someone and eat all his mana, and just ends up blocking the way for your main hero most of the time. I don't know, I think it depends on what you're up against. It's true that you can only fight with meta is up, then again, if you use it on cooldown, you have it up more than 30% of the time, it's usually not hard to time it so that fights happens as it comes off cooldown, then farm until it's up again. Also, I just feel like while some hard carries can outcarry him in a 1v1, TB just makes teamfights hell for opponents since his illusions do so much damage (and if you have good items, tank a lot). The fact that you can enter a fight with 3 illusions and then keep spawning illusions as it happens is so strong, reflection shuts down melee carries pretty hard for 5 seconds as long as people know how to kite (and obviously, does massive damage on enemy carries, regardless of your own farm). It all comes down to meta being up, but I think a six slot TB with meta up is a bigger deal in teamfights lategame than most other carries, especially if he has good micro (a single meta illusion on a support will probably force the support to run away from the fight) and gets a nice sunder use off. six slot tb actually outcarries almost all carries. Perhaps void can lock him out and kill during 6 seconds of chrono (though i have problems imagining void doing enough dps to cut though 3,7k HP with 30+ armor in 6 seconds before sunder, wil probably require focus fire of whole team), or dusa can try to get rid of illusions with split shot (DR is a must then lol), or 7 slotted spectre killing 3 of tb's teammates. Volvo rightfully gave him 3 stars :D.
The problem is a truely close late game most of the time if you spend meta on a fight away from their base, win the fight(if you lose the fight obviously you are pretty much done), go to their base, it wears off and they buyback and you are pretty much useless as well unless its a melee carry who lets you reflection on him and go to town on him. Not to mention if opponents have a dual/tri core that can fight at any point and you are a hero who can only fight effectively with your spell up its not hard to see which way the wind is blowing ._. Also medusa's ultimate automatically kills illusions, dont need rapier + split for that.
But ultimately after going 17-1 on TB over past 2-3 days, i find that if opponents are the right composition you probably have to get bkb first/second/third item depending on how hard they counter you... Which is pretty terrible for a illusion hero.
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Once you have radiance, you can farm effectively 2lanes and the jungle without any risk. Thats 1kgpm from min 15. Funny hero.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On February 10 2014 21:49 DougJDempsey wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 22:15 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 07 2014 16:39 Tobberoth wrote:On February 07 2014 10:46 DougJDempsey wrote:On February 01 2014 15:23 lolfail9001 wrote:On February 01 2014 14:15 idonthinksobro wrote:On February 01 2014 13:35 Zealos wrote:
I think SnY into small crit then Bfly/Skadi/Maybe Lifesteal then finishing your crit into heart.
I have to disagree with people who think this guy isnt lategame, he is absurdly strong late.
EDIT: And slot in BKB where appropriate Yes he is strong lategame but he is also strong really early in the game peaking around lvl 7 when you have 4 in metamorphosis. If you simply start gaming when you have a manta there are not many heros that will stand a chance unless they have a lot of nukes or a lot of stuns in that case you need a bkb too. This pretty much. He is kind of like luna-gyro decent early game (aka can secure kills in early game), good mid game (due to conjure image+meta giving him dmg level of full agi morph and drow) and seriously strong lategame (due to having almost all of his stuff scale with items and levels including opponents ones). All of the rest is pretty true but his late game is his greatest weakness to be honest. His peak comes when its midgame and he is on level items with enemy carry but has metamorph and manta and four illusions total. Late game he pretty much cant fight as long as metamorph is down unless he has a huge item advantage. Too over reliant on metamorph so he cant be kited around, and melee illusions are largely useless as you dont have blink like say, AM to crowd around someone and eat all his mana, and just ends up blocking the way for your main hero most of the time. I don't know, I think it depends on what you're up against. It's true that you can only fight with meta is up, then again, if you use it on cooldown, you have it up more than 30% of the time, it's usually not hard to time it so that fights happens as it comes off cooldown, then farm until it's up again. Also, I just feel like while some hard carries can outcarry him in a 1v1, TB just makes teamfights hell for opponents since his illusions do so much damage (and if you have good items, tank a lot). The fact that you can enter a fight with 3 illusions and then keep spawning illusions as it happens is so strong, reflection shuts down melee carries pretty hard for 5 seconds as long as people know how to kite (and obviously, does massive damage on enemy carries, regardless of your own farm). It all comes down to meta being up, but I think a six slot TB with meta up is a bigger deal in teamfights lategame than most other carries, especially if he has good micro (a single meta illusion on a support will probably force the support to run away from the fight) and gets a nice sunder use off. six slot tb actually outcarries almost all carries. Perhaps void can lock him out and kill during 6 seconds of chrono (though i have problems imagining void doing enough dps to cut though 3,7k HP with 30+ armor in 6 seconds before sunder, wil probably require focus fire of whole team), or dusa can try to get rid of illusions with split shot (DR is a must then lol), or 7 slotted spectre killing 3 of tb's teammates. Volvo rightfully gave him 3 stars :D. The problem is a truely close late game most of the time if you spend meta on a fight away from their base, win the fight(if you lose the fight obviously you are pretty much done), go to their base, it wears off and they buyback and you are pretty much useless as well unless its a melee carry who lets you reflection on him and go to town on him. Not to mention if opponents have a dual/tri core that can fight at any point and you are a hero who can only fight effectively with your spell up its not hard to see which way the wind is blowing ._. Also medusa's ultimate automatically kills illusions, dont need rapier + split for that. But ultimately after going 17-1 on TB over past 2-3 days, i find that if opponents are the right composition you probably have to get bkb first/second/third item depending on how hard they counter you... Which is pretty terrible for a illusion hero.
Illusion hero? TB is only illusion carry if you want to go with that route. He can be straight up melee/ranged single target right clicker with pure damage items and bkb if there is someone to turn his stats against him (dark seer being worst example). His midgame is good enough to afford to buy bkb (let's be honest, bkb is suboptimal on luna too, even ethereal is better if there is no need for bkb, but it is a must because well, you kinda want to do that damage).
Melee carry that can just ignore opposition and go straight for rax/throne since his dps and tankiness (6 slot tb, mind you) allows him to ignore most of cores in lategame while destroying your base at speeds of lycan. Or even better, go farm for buyback and just send you 400+ dps illusions do the job.
Medusa killing illusions means that for some strange reason you decided you are as manly as Leoric and decided to face dusa during her ult (all 5 of you).
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Treads Yasha Skadi then finish Manta around min 25~30 is a solid and safe build. SnY if you are being pressured/want to pressure yourself. Always consider BKB. Early BoT can be strong.
He can also jungle starting at lvl1, ~300gpm rate in the first 10 minutes while stacking ancient camp with a HotD to clear later.
Also, be careful of taking fights without Metamorphosis. He's pretty mediocre without it unless you heavily outfarm the oponent.
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skadi first big item is pretty terrible tho
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On February 11 2014 04:35 Noya wrote:
He can also jungle starting at lvl1, ~300gpm rate in the first 10 minutes
Please explain how you do that. I'd appreciate it.
The path Yasha->Skadi is legit if you have a good start. Meta, the Yasha and your amazing agility gain will provide more than sufficient damage and the Skadi will make you extremely hard to deal with (tanky + ranged slow).
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On February 11 2014 04:50 Erasme wrote:
skadi first big item is pretty terrible tho
Why though? Skadi is amazing on TB. Gives some DPS, good deal of HP, about as much mana as you will ever need and it's orb is simply amazing with meta. Actually skadi is one of the best items in first item category on most of carries (obvious exceptions being bkb-first-item tier carries and melee illusion carries that like diffusal more), especially on carries with good stat gain.
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EPT
