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United States47024 Posts
On November 27 2014 03:44 govie wrote:
Lets say your team is being killed twice? why not switch the tb and the solo offlaner?
Because unless the offlaner is already losing, you go from 2 lanes to losing 3.
A starved TB in a bad 3v3 isn't going to miraculously do better in an offlane vs. safelane 1v1 against a safelane solo that got reasonable farm and has a 2-3 level advantage over him, while switching the offlaner down doesn't necessarily have the same converse impact depending on which offlaner it is (some offlane solos are strong for getting kills in the swapped 3v3 scenario though, but a lot of common ones aren't).
In a scenario where you lost the 3v3, you rely on the tempo of the solo laners to make back the deficit in the midgame because they will be the ones with the highest midgame impact. You don't want to sacrifice the offlaner's tempo to try and get the TB to catch up sooner, because the TB will only ever get a chance to catch up if the offlaner and mid are doing well enough to create space for him.
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On November 27 2014 03:44 govie wrote:
Lets say your team is being killed twice? why not switch the tb and the solo offlaner?
Depends on the plan your team has. If you wanna spread their tri lane around the map chasing your tri lane, sure.
If your offlaner is winning his 1v1 mu, this might be counterproductive
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United States47024 Posts
On November 27 2014 04:01 ahw wrote:
Depends on the plan your team has. If you wanna spread their tri lane around the map chasing your tri lane, sure.
If you want to break the trilane, the most effective way to do this usually isn't to move the TB, it's to move the supports. Particularly if your supports are weak laners with strong gank/kill potential.
Swapping the TB into the offlane has the strong possibility that you get a scenario where you get even less gold/XP than if you'd stayed in the safe lane. You can swap lanes to dodge an aggressive trilane, but waiting till after the enemy supports have a gold and level advantage from getting 2 kills is a pretty shitty time to do it.
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Yea. That's what I meant by depends on your game plan. I don't know what effective game plan has a gimped TB though.
Also their solo safe laner will in all likelihood be 2-3 levels up on your TB, and have a big item advantage on him.
The real solution to this problem IMO is picking better supports
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If you pop Metamorph right away on level 1 and then go into the jungle the moment it is off cooldown again you can get ~50-60 jungle creeps before 10min which, depending on how many you got in the lane, might be enough to get you a 10min Boots/Aquila/Yasha. If you're Radiant you can time it so that you're always farming with Metamorph when you're in the right half of the jungle which makes it a lot harder for them to harass you.
Also, If you have some kind of control over your teammates picks and you see the enemy clearly gearing up for an aggressive trilane can ask someone on your team to pick Lich and go dual lane elsewhere.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 27 2014 04:11 ahw wrote:
The real solution to this problem IMO is picking better supports
Or rather, make whatever adjustments you want to make from the beginning of the game. If you're going to swap your laning arrangement, do it at the start of the game. Doing it after your trilane is 0-2 is just going to be outright worse, especially when you already knew your trilane was fucked going into the game.
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Thanks all for the laning tips.
I saw TB getting bottle (mostly for DD rune + mana). Thought? anyone try this?
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When you're full time rotating between lane and jungle, having the extra regen from bottle and runes is great for staying at full hp and mana
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Would you skip Aquila in that case?
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On December 11 2014 01:40 mooo wrote:
Thanks all for the laning tips.
I saw TB getting bottle (mostly for DD rune + mana). Thought? anyone try this?
Illusion rune is pretty nuts too.
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Runes are fairly strong on TB, but really bottle is not a great item on him. You want to get your farming going ASAP to get yourself big enough to push and pressure. I just don't see why you would go bottle over Aquila except against a bh/sa/nyx who's stalking you so you want to remain at 100% hp.
Pms, brown boots, Aquila, QB when you go into jungle, yasha, manta, travels, skadi is just too smooth to consider doing anything different imo
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ya, if bottle no aquila.
i was thinking bottle was worse than aquila cause you loose so much xp and $ when you go to the rune, and also risk not even getting the rune. but i also see how completely dumb DD is with meta.
i saw pros do it, but didnt note who they were against. maybe thats the determining factor.
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You can also just crow the bottle, though that is harder to do in pubs.
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You can also time your jungle rotations probably. If you're at the camps closest to the rune when it spawns you're really not giving up all that much to get it.
Assuming both cover your mana and your team isn't benefiting much from your mana aura because you're off farming as TB all the time the trade-off is what?
If you still get the wraith band...
Runes & health recovery vs. 3 agi, 6 damage, 1 armor, +2 armor aura and 175gold.
Plus you can pass off the bottle to a support later on where as you would just be selling the Aquila.
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Uh aquilas stats are way stronger than you know dude.
+3 Strength
+9 Agility
+3 Intelligence
+9 Damage
+1 Armor
Grants mana regeneration and armor in a 900 radius.
Bonus Mana Regeneration: 0.65
Bonus Armor: 2
So its total 18 dmg, and enhances your pushing quite considerably with the +2 armor making melee creeps take 1 more tower hit each to kill
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SoCal8910 Posts
On December 12 2014 04:58 Varth wrote:
Uh aquilas stats are way stronger than you know dude.
+3 Strength
+9 Agility
+3 Intelligence
+9 Damage
+1 Armor
Grants mana regeneration and armor in a 900 radius.
Bonus Mana Regeneration: 0.65
Bonus Armor: 2
So its total 18 dmg, and enhances your pushing quite considerably with the +2 armor making melee creeps take 1 more tower hit each to kill
exactly. the fact is that those stats will matter to TB who is really lacking at the beginning of the game. your pushing power from the aura and the extra agility, armor, and damage greatly help your farm before you get to your yasha.
on top of that, yes if you time your farming routes perfectly and they don't have heroes camping the rune when they realize that's your source of regen...maybe bottle is ok. but I personally prefer aquilla since it offers you stats.
I personally don't understand the obsession with getting a bottle on farmers with the current patch. yes, there are two runes..however if you're securing both runes as a team, your mid should be taking the action rune to refill and bounties should be going to supports since they're not getting too much xp and gold since they are supports. this won't always work out bc of RNG, but I do feel that unless its a DD, supports should be getting at least one of the runes, instead of having 2 bottle users.
plus, you have to stop farming, and as a carry that's a huge deal.
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if u go bottle ud probably get it alongside roa
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United States47024 Posts
It depends on your mid hero. The thing is, realistically, the safe lane rune is already the one that your mid is gonna get because it's the one that's safer for him to get. Just cuz there are 2 runes doesn't mean your team is gonna get both of them every time, and when it's only safe for your mid laner to get the safe lane rune, he's probably going to do more with it while you'd just farm.
If your mid is someone who's also just gonna bottle-crow or farm with a rune, or a non-Bottle mid hero, then it's easier to justify.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On December 12 2014 06:43 TheYango wrote:
It depends on your mid hero. The thing is, realistically, the safe lane rune is already the one that your mid is gonna get because it's the one that's safer for him to get. Just cuz there are 2 runes doesn't mean your team is gonna get both of them every time, and when it's only safe for your mid laner to get the safe lane rune, he's probably going to do more with it while you'd just farm.
If your mid is someone who's also just gonna bottle-crow or farm with a rune, or a non-Bottle mid hero, then it's easier to justify.
exactly. this is a more likely scenario and then as a carry you've effectively wasted 700g if the situation is not ideal and your team can only secure safe lane rune with your mid.
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United States2186 Posts
Bottle definitely does not directly pay off for TB unless for some reason you need a lot of laning sustain. His base regen is so high and with aquila you might need 1-2 fountain trips during the game after clearing the whole jungle at most. Getting non dd/illu runes also have a pretty significant opportunity cost in most cases. The way the pros do it with hoarding a dd for a t2 team push is pretty reliant on having coordinated allies.
Though I don't really like getting the aquila if I had free farm and thus went treads yasha radi, but it is nice if I plan on fighting early with treads yasha skadi. It seems to slow the radi without significant payoff, as in you don't get to farm enough faster as your farming speed is limited by ms and space, not average time per camp/wave. The tower pushing effect is nice but there just aren't that many cases where it makes or breaks a kill. But if you push tower too early/don't have total lane control and go brown boots then aquila is necessary.
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EPT
