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On December 12 2014 04:58 Varth wrote:
Uh aquilas stats are way stronger than you know dude.
+3 Strength
+9 Agility
+3 Intelligence
+9 Damage
+1 Armor
Grants mana regeneration and armor in a 900 radius.
Bonus Mana Regeneration: 0.65
Bonus Armor: 2
So its total 18 dmg, and enhances your pushing quite considerably with the +2 armor making melee creeps take 1 more tower hit each to kill
I was comparing it to Wraith Band + Bottle not just Bottle, I just didn't write my post properly and left that out lol.
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You get Aquila instead of treads, because 100% of the time tb wants travels pretty quickly after radi/manta to start farming the entire map. It's 35 more gold than glove+belt while offering slightly better farming and pushing potential AND won't be sold 15 minutes later
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Doesn't Ver go something like Treads when he needs it and then, back into BoT later on after his Radiance/Manta? BoT is always what I want but I was wondering about Ver's strat. I never thought of going back into a full BoT so soon, curious here.
So varth, no matter what you will always skip treads given that you have gotten Aquila to offset that fact you're skipping treads? I find that hard to believe because sometimes there's a lot of unavoidable dmg goin around. I'm not discussing the same thing as that guy about aquila vs bottle either, the value of Aquila is fairly basic/standard knowledge.
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Honestly treads are pretty terrible in the early laning stage, it's all about timing last hits so +dmg is more valuable which Aquila gives, which along with meta and and earlyish QB lets me out cs and deny the hell out of most offlaners.
The primary value of treads is the very efficient attack speed (if you have Aquila, if you don't have Aquila treads switching is a big deal if you want to spam illusions), which only has a decent impact when you first go into the jungle before you get your yasha. Considering that's usually a 1-2 minute window I find it to be a waste of gold.
I did a similar build to vers strat (going pms treads yasha radiance manta) for a while but in pubs I've found a lot more impact in pms brown Aquila yasha manta travels because you can pressure towers a couple minutes earlier which can be a HUGE difference in who is capable of stopping your illusions. Most supports at that point wont be able to stop them due to being low level so you can usually kill a couple more towers or force an opposing enemy core to defend whatever lane you are pressuring. Just that is a win because you are farming the jungle + lane so you are getting a farm advantage.
Being able to tp to fights no matter where the fight is on the map from minute 18 on is freaking nuts too, at that point while you are fragile as hell you are the strongest glass cannon in the game, and due to your constant pressure on whatever lane you are pushing you will have a #s advantage at most fights that you tp to. Now you won a teamfight and can kill a tower or two and just snowball even harder
I don't like using pro builds. I'm not a pro and never will be, and they play a completely different game in many respects. You can get away with so much more in pubs than they can, and can exploit so many other things. The best source of advice I've found that actually applies to me and something I can actually pull off is Chunderboy. That guy just gets the pub mentality and how to win in pubs more than anyone else that posts here imo. I've played this game for a decade and never had advice work out so consistently like his does
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Yes you go bots lategame after treads, treads increase dps alot, if you want to push earlier pt's seem great. Blacks terrorblade is pretty impressive, he has almost a 80% winrate on him, hence the name terrorblade. Black pushes a little earlier so he skips radiance and goes pt+roh almost every game.
Blacks build him pretty standard: PT's+RoH+Manta+Skadi+ whatever you need (maybe bkb+ac+mkb+butterfly+bots +etcetc).
http://www.datdota.com/player.php?q=53&player=Black
E: If you go radiance, going pt+roh only delays the timing of your early radiance i think, if you can skip both its fine.
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United States47024 Posts
Early Treads is an item of convenience. For purely farming it's not all that great compared to more stat items, but the fact that you can buy it on demand at the side shop on the fly is pretty nice. If lanes break earlier and you're just solo farming, you don't really need to detour by 950 gold over just getting a bigger farming item. But in an extended laning scenario where you want to preserve an advantage over an enemy laner rather than banking 2k for your next item and letting him potentially put pressure on you, you can just buy the Treads.
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On December 13 2014 06:52 Varth wrote:
I don't like using pro builds. I'm not a pro and never will be, and they play a completely different game in many respects. You can get away with so much more in pubs than they can, and can exploit so many other things. The best source of advice I've found that actually applies to me and something I can actually pull off is Chunderboy. That guy just gets the pub mentality and how to win in pubs more than anyone else that posts here imo. I've played this game for a decade and never had advice work out so consistently like his does
Too bad the general public doesn't understand this nuance as much. Pro builds have their place, in pro-play or a pro-environment, and sometimes those things do align with pub games, but pub play is pub play. Trying to wrap your head around why pubs play one way and are successful yet would be bad in a competitive match will give you migraines. I've had the most success when I play as you say, as if pub games are pub games. For every time I hear "but so & so does it"...
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On December 13 2014 07:52 deadmau wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2014 06:52 Varth wrote:
I don't like using pro builds. I'm not a pro and never will be, and they play a completely different game in many respects. You can get away with so much more in pubs than they can, and can exploit so many other things. The best source of advice I've found that actually applies to me and something I can actually pull off is Chunderboy. That guy just gets the pub mentality and how to win in pubs more than anyone else that posts here imo. I've played this game for a decade and never had advice work out so consistently like his does For every time I hear "but so & so does it"...
And they aren"t so and so and cant pull it off skill wise or understand why it's done and that the situations are different.
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When you consider the strengths of bot on this hero, you could consider skipping treads. It is generally an overrated item anyway, especially since it does not offer any extra ms over brown boots.
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United States2186 Posts
If you have relative free farm treads more than pay for themselves. Try it yourself in lobby. Once you have treads you can farm jungle camps while illusion farms lane. Your supports get lane xp and you get massive farm; you should be able to reach 80 cs by 8 mins and it will only go up in ideal circumstances. To some degree you can get around this by shoving wave and then jungling a camp with illusion before returning to wave (on dire only), but your jungling is too slow without treads until you get a few more levels, or if you blow meta for a kill you can kill a camp with illu in lane. Treads lets you start jungling+illu in lane as soon as you get them. Plus you give the offlaner full waves under tower if you shove lane. May be worth it, but alternatives are better. It's definitely worth it to get travels asap once you get your first major farming item even if you bought treads: it will accelerate your items by several minutes. That farming item is either radi (sometimes +manta) or skadi+manta as stats builds farm too slowly initially.
If you have an inbetween level of free farm and highly contested lane, or your team stupidly pushes the tower too early (pushing the t1 tower early but not the second is a horrible misplay people make with TB), or some idiot jungler stealing your jungle, then the treads are superfluous as they won't accelerate your jungling any faster since you can't jungle + lane, so you'll have illusions for the jungle. On the lower end if your lane is so contested that you need any advantage the treads are great.
I don't think you should go Radiance every game; it depends a lot on the enemy team. It's much better when they have squishy supports that you can solo kill with illusions and blink reliant heroes. Disrupting Blinks is such a godsend. When you push you just send an illusion further in and they need to auto it down before anyone can blink on your team. It also fits appropriately if your team is so weak in 5v5's that you can't afford to take direct fights. But within those guidelines I've never once regretted going it; there's a limit on turning unwinnable games around with non radi builds, but you can really make miracles with radi. There is rarely ever going to be a noticeable difference in pushing towers so long as you have the yasha. The limiting factor on tower kills is enemy movement, your movement, and wave position, not whether you have a manta or just a yasha. Treads yasha skadi is definitely really good though for fighting <25 minutes if you have a strong timing then. Any other build besides these two - yasha skadi bkb and force early fights, or radi bots manta and get maxed 30-35min - feels grossly inefficient.
Also why not copy what pros do in pubs. Somebody out there is doing the right thing to learn from and it's almost always going to be the people on top. Though for TB nobody is really that good at the hero so far imo; I guess its been so easy to do decently that people haven't really pushed boundaries much. I've watched a lot of otherwise good players and they're pretty disappointing. Loda's game versus EG was very good for the most part, but still unsophisticated in lategame. Black sometimes looks really good but then you have contrary evidence like that facepalm game of misplays against c9. Only Beesa was worth mimicking for me, outside of the late travels, and he rarely plays tb anyway.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 13 2014 15:31 Ver wrote:
Also why not copy what pros do in pubs. Somebody out there is doing the right thing to learn from and it's almost always going to be the people on top. Though for TB nobody is really that good at the hero so far imo; I guess its been so easy to do decently that people haven't really pushed boundaries much. I've watched a lot of otherwise good players and they're pretty disappointing. Loda's game versus EG was very good for the most part, but still unsophisticated in lategame. Black sometimes looks really good but then you have contrary evidence like that facepalm game of misplays against c9. Only Beesa was worth mimicking for me, outside of the late travels, and he rarely plays tb anyway.
I think you contradict yourself here. It's not so much copying pros that's bad, but it's copying them blindly without being as discerning as you are here.
The majority of low-mid level players can't objectively judge "good" from "bad" play when it comes to a top level player, which makes it likewise hard for them to scrutinize higher level players in the way you're describing here that's useful.
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Most people dont simply copy a probuilds without thinking about it no matter what mmr they have. A forum is a discussionplatform, you either get used to it or you delete the topics from the "mythreads section" and start pm-ing yango, ver or chunderboy every week with all your questions, lol.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 14 2014 05:30 govie wrote:
Most people dont simply copy a probuilds without thinking about it no matter what mmr they have.
You'd be surprised. It's not exactly an uncommon thing for someone to just dotabuff a few games and blindly follow the items without even watching the games.
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United States2186 Posts
I didn't explain myself clearly. The vast vast majority of dota players should blindly copy pros in pubs because they have no idea how to discern anything. I played the game for half a year before I allowed myself to have an opinion. Here I was just giving some advice as someone who's studied all the major tb players a lot and has the skill to analyze properly. TB is also a very weird exception in that there isn't some pro you can just copy without thinking and be doing the best there is available.
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On December 13 2014 15:31 Ver wrote:
Also why not copy what pros do in pubs. Somebody out there is doing the right thing to learn from and it's almost always going to be the people on top. Though for TB nobody is really that good at the hero so far imo; I guess its been so easy to do decently that people haven't really pushed boundaries much. I've watched a lot of otherwise good players and they're pretty disappointing. Loda's game versus EG was very good for the most part, but still unsophisticated in lategame. Black sometimes looks really good but then you have contrary evidence like that facepalm game of misplays against c9. Only Beesa was worth mimicking for me, outside of the late travels, and he rarely plays tb anyway.
thx im the best
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I like drums on him now if you skip treads and you are going rat style. I hate drums on 80% of the pool, but he makes good use of the stats and the charges with the meta nerf.
Usually I go Aquila/brown boot/drum/yasha in to bots and then whatever. I mean ideally you skip drums but generally they will choose pickoff heroes to make your life difficult. If I'm ahead I get em if I'm behind I try to cut corners for faster bots.
I don't think its optimal but I thnk its a pretty good middle ground build.
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On December 13 2014 15:31 Ver wrote:
If you have relative free farm treads more than pay for themselves. Try it yourself in lobby. Once you have treads you can farm jungle camps while illusion farms lane. Your supports get lane xp and you get massive farm; you should be able to reach 80 cs by 8 mins and it will only go up in ideal circumstances. To some degree you can get around this by shoving wave and then jungling a camp with illusion before returning to wave (on dire only), but your jungling is too slow without treads until you get a few more levels, or if you blow meta for a kill you can kill a camp with illu in lane. Treads lets you start jungling+illu in lane as soon as you get them. Plus you give the offlaner full waves under tower if you shove lane. May be worth it, but alternatives are better. It's definitely worth it to get travels asap once you get your first major farming item even if you bought treads: it will accelerate your items by several minutes. That farming item is either radi (sometimes +manta) or skadi+manta as stats builds farm too slowly initially.
If you have an inbetween level of free farm and highly contested lane, or your team stupidly pushes the tower too early (pushing the t1 tower early but not the second is a horrible misplay people make with TB), or some idiot jungler stealing your jungle, then the treads are superfluous as they won't accelerate your jungling any faster since you can't jungle + lane, so you'll have illusions for the jungle. On the lower end if your lane is so contested that you need any advantage the treads are great.
I don't think you should go Radiance every game; it depends a lot on the enemy team. It's much better when they have squishy supports that you can solo kill with illusions and blink reliant heroes. Disrupting Blinks is such a godsend. When you push you just send an illusion further in and they need to auto it down before anyone can blink on your team. It also fits appropriately if your team is so weak in 5v5's that you can't afford to take direct fights. But within those guidelines I've never once regretted going it; there's a limit on turning unwinnable games around with non radi builds, but you can really make miracles with radi. There is rarely ever going to be a noticeable difference in pushing towers so long as you have the yasha. The limiting factor on tower kills is enemy movement, your movement, and wave position, not whether you have a manta or just a yasha. Treads yasha skadi is definitely really good though for fighting <25 minutes if you have a strong timing then. Any other build besides these two - yasha skadi bkb and force early fights, or radi bots manta and get maxed 30-35min - feels grossly inefficient.
Also why not copy what pros do in pubs. Somebody out there is doing the right thing to learn from and it's almost always going to be the people on top. Though for TB nobody is really that good at the hero so far imo; I guess its been so easy to do decently that people haven't really pushed boundaries much. I've watched a lot of otherwise good players and they're pretty disappointing. Loda's game versus EG was very good for the most part, but still unsophisticated in lategame. Black sometimes looks really good but then you have contrary evidence like that facepalm game of misplays against c9. Only Beesa was worth mimicking for me, outside of the late travels, and he rarely plays tb anyway.
Do you have a vod or non-expired replay of getting 80 cs in 8 minutes using that method? I tried it in an empty game and was about 20 cs behind the bar you say is possible. I went aquila treads and used meta and illusion every cd and couldn't come close. I dunno if I fucked up or what, but the tempo seemed off-- the illusions I sent frequently died during the creep wave and the next one arrived just in time for the creep wave to die off on its own. The non-meta illusions just weren't doing much damage to the lane creeps anyway, so I wasn't getting every possible lasthit either. Is this just a matter of mechanical skill, or is there something I'm missing? Do you use meta/ilu on specific timings to hit the creep waves? Am I overthinking this? I couldn't even pull it off without 1-2 enemies in the offlane contesting farm.
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iirc you should use meta to clear a stack if needed or to push towers/get kills. with a quelling blade I think the damage from a meta illusion and a regular illusion are pretty similar. If you can last hit at level 1 you should be able to last hit at level 5 with a quelling blade. Your illusion shouldn't be taking damage in lane from creeps so it shouldn't be dying. You can shift A click each camp with your main hero so he will auto farm each camp without you needing to monitor him too much then use the majority of your attention on just last hitting with your illusion in lane.
That works in absolute free farm scenarios, if someone is in lane they can kill your illusion which is annoying.
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did you skip a qb? i see lots of people try to skip QB on tb and it seems like a real bad idea. 32% dmg on illusions is legit
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EPT
