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On November 23 2014 03:03 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2014 02:01 Rybka wrote:
Any thoughts on QB -> boots -> Yasha -> Radiance -> Manta -> Skadi assuming a good laning phase and free farm?
The map control of travs+manta+radiance seems almost insurmountable. Most people these days don't go radiance on TB - it can be okay, but you can still effectively split push with just high stats illusions, and you can fight a lot better earlier on (manta/skadi comes online a lot sooner), which can help turn some fights / win games. Plus, TB destroys towers super easily without going radiance. It can work, yeah, but you get map control anyways in the midgame with this hero barring you aren't too far behind.
Makes sense! Thanks for the breakdown.
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On November 23 2014 02:01 Rybka wrote:
Any thoughts on QB -> boots -> Yasha -> Radiance -> Manta -> Skadi assuming a good laning phase and free farm?
The map control of travs+manta+radiance seems almost insurmountable.
It's very very good. A friend of mine does it and you creep like a monster. he usually 6 slots on TB around the 30 minute mark with 17-22 creeps a minute. It let's you farm way more than the stats items. For those who question it, I doubt you can get much past 16/17 creeps a minute without the radiance, while getting that should be relatively easy with the radiance if you have decent farming patterns. Mixing an aquila in there helps a lot too. So usually bb, PMS/Aquila/quelling/yasha --> radiance. Get the treads if you need to, but get the boots of travel after manta or skadi. The travel's let you farm obscenely fast with the radiance.
The general way you farm is 2x lanes + jungle, TP to other side of map, 2x lanes + jungle then TP back. and repeat. Then once you are slotted you send your conjure illusions to A move up a lane to the barracks while farming with just the manta illusions and your hero.
http://www.dotabuff.com/players/119079442/matches?date=&faction=&hero=terrorblade&lobby_type=&game_mode=®ion=&duration=
Here is his match history. He's posted in this thread under the name Ver I think.
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If you are getting 17 creeps a minute with radiance TB, chances are you can build most of any builds on th and still win / have good creeps per minute.
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On November 23 2014 05:41 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2014 02:01 Rybka wrote:
Any thoughts on QB -> boots -> Yasha -> Radiance -> Manta -> Skadi assuming a good laning phase and free farm?
The map control of travs+manta+radiance seems almost insurmountable. It's very very good. A friend of mine does it and you creep like a monster. he usually 6 slots on TB around the 30 minute mark with 17-22 creeps a minute. It let's you farm way more than the stats items. For those who question it, I doubt you can get much past 16/17 creeps a minute without the radiance, while getting that should be relatively easy with the radiance if you have decent farming patterns. Mixing an aquila in there helps a lot too. So usually bb, PMS/Aquila/quelling/yasha --> radiance. Get the treads if you need to, but get the boots of travel after manta or skadi. The travel's let you farm obscenely fast with the radiance. The general way you farm is 2x lanes + jungle, TP to other side of map, 2x lanes + jungle then TP back. and repeat. Then once you are slotted you send your conjure illusions to A move up a lane to the barracks while farming with just the manta illusions and your hero. http://www.dotabuff.com/players/119079442/matches?date=&faction=&hero=terrorblade&lobby_type=&game_mode=®ion=&duration=Here is his match history. He's posted in this thread under the name Ver I think.
Ridiculous pubstomps with massive GPM are one of the funnest things about TB 
I'll have to check a few of these out - thanks.
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On November 23 2014 07:37 Comeh wrote:
If you are getting 17 creeps a minute with radiance TB, chances are you can build most of any builds on th and still win / have good creeps per minute.
This is what your last post had me thinking... i.e. if you're farming well enough to get travs/radiance/manta by like 17-20 mins you probably could have gone another build and been more active, with less risk, and still won.
Interesting stuff. To YOLO radiance, or not to YOLO radiance... that is the question.
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I honestly feel this discussion has been muddled a bit, because people were actually under the impression that Radiance was bad on Terrorblade before the recent 6.82b nerf. It was fair to say that the standard non-Radiance was equally competitive with Radiance build, before the illusion nerf I was running both builds, and they were fairly equal, and might I say it was better that way because it allowed you to choose which viable route you wanted. I personally preferred Radiance because of the extra perks it allowed me to take advantage of with some micro.
Those that say Radiance is bad just didn't understand how to use Radiance enough. Just having radiance allows your hero to move heroes around the map in a different way than manta/skadi. Controlling blinks was very helpful on Radiance TB. There's no question now, IF keeps pushing him away from Radiance viability. What you're able to do with Radiance has not changed, only that it's very risky now in translating into wins.
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When you say equally competitive, what do you mean? In terms of farm or effectiveness? In farm stats loses, and effectiveness is situational.
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On November 23 2014 07:37 Comeh wrote:
If you are getting 17 creeps a minute with radiance TB, chances are you can build most of any builds on th and still win / have good creeps per minute.
That's not true. TB just creeps very very fast with it. It's not a sign of an absolutely free stomp game. It's just like a Naga, where by controlling the lanes your CS is nuts. Your team might be losing but you are stalling out the game by creep cutting and farming their jungle if not both. He can farm a lot relatively safely by scouting with his illusions while farming and only using the hero to farm safe areas.
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On November 23 2014 09:29 deadmau wrote:
I honestly feel this discussion has been muddled a bit, because people were actually under the impression that Radiance was bad on Terrorblade before the recent 6.82b nerf. It was fair to say that the standard non-Radiance was equally competitive with Radiance build, before the illusion nerf I was running both builds, and they were fairly equal, and might I say it was better that way because it allowed you to choose which viable route you wanted. I personally preferred Radiance because of the extra perks it allowed me to take advantage of with some micro.
Those that say Radiance is bad just didn't understand how to use Radiance enough. Just having radiance allows your hero to move heroes around the map in a different way than manta/skadi. Controlling blinks was very helpful on Radiance TB. There's no question now, IF keeps pushing him away from Radiance viability. What you're able to do with Radiance has not changed, only that it's very risky now in translating into wins.
I'm confused, most of the people I know think radiance was strong before 6.82b. And doesn't radiance require less micro since you can just a-move your illusions up the lanes and still snag 75%+ (I'm making that number up) of the last hits without a second thought?
I'm just a lowly 3.Xk player, but I think the risk is more a matter of the meta and the nerf to TB movespeed (and also Q). The nerf to Q and subsequent nerf to movespeed means less faceroll kills in the laning phase, which delays yasha and therefore the ability to jung+lane with illusions at the ~7-8 minute mark. That means you delay pretty much everything longer than before, just so you can have a shot at getting rad and then snowballing. The new 6.82b meta also seems to be extremely gank heavy, with many rotations gunning for me before 6 mins.
It's tough to grab a radiance under that kind of pressure now, whereas before you could just meta+Q and smoke pretty much anyone that stepped into your lane.
But I agree, it's a complicated discussion! :D
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On November 23 2014 11:00 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
When you say equally competitive, what do you mean? In terms of farm or effectiveness? In farm stats loses, and effectiveness is situational.
Equally competitive for me means translating into a win, I'm not talking nuances like lasthits/min or farmspeed or pushing power; I guess mine is an overall analysis. Each route entailed a tad different playstyle, nothing significant, but both were able to translate into wins, while being effective in their own rights. This doesn't matter much anymore, 6.82b made it way too risky.
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On November 23 2014 05:41 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2014 02:01 Rybka wrote:
Any thoughts on QB -> boots -> Yasha -> Radiance -> Manta -> Skadi assuming a good laning phase and free farm?
The map control of travs+manta+radiance seems almost insurmountable. It's very very good. A friend of mine does it and you creep like a monster. he usually 6 slots on TB around the 30 minute mark with 17-22 creeps a minute. It let's you farm way more than the stats items. For those who question it, I doubt you can get much past 16/17 creeps a minute without the radiance, while getting that should be relatively easy with the radiance if you have decent farming patterns. Mixing an aquila in there helps a lot too. So usually bb, PMS/Aquila/quelling/yasha --> radiance. Get the treads if you need to, but get the boots of travel after manta or skadi. The travel's let you farm obscenely fast with the radiance. The general way you farm is 2x lanes + jungle, TP to other side of map, 2x lanes + jungle then TP back. and repeat. Then once you are slotted you send your conjure illusions to A move up a lane to the barracks while farming with just the manta illusions and your hero. http://www.dotabuff.com/players/119079442/matches?date=&faction=&hero=terrorblade&lobby_type=&game_mode=®ion=&duration=Here is his match history. He's posted in this thread under the name Ver I think.
I watched 2 of that guys replays last time his match history came up in this thread and I think he's making some seriously bad decisions that boost his farm but decreases his chances of winning. Terrorblade can take towers very fast, and without putting himself at much of a risk. By dedicating your illusions to pushing you're going to create massive space for your team while denying it from your enemy. You'll probably end up somewhere around 10-15 cs/min, but you'll be more likely to actually win the game.
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No he's not, the problem is he's balanced from a pro standpoint and tb takes more skill than most to play effectively and also needs protection. He's still one of the best farmers by far, and that combined with his strong push makes him very viable, but he's insanely fragile without items, so if you are not a great farmer he looks terrible
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To be honest, I think this hero is quite strong in pubs up to a certain level (probably over 5-5.5k it tapers off)
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Nah he is not. His only weakness is against an aggressive lane. Without it, he is pretty much free to farm and carry on his own. Still think he is overpowered.
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what do you do if you face an aggro tri? say you assume from the draft they will go aggro-tri, do you just get starting items to jungle? swap lanes?
I know the obv answer is "it depends" but can someone give the options. cause i was thinking jungle but if theres an aggro tri they might just hunt you down.
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On November 27 2014 00:21 mooo wrote:
what do you do if you face an aggro tri? say you assume from the draft they will go aggro-tri, do you just get starting items to jungle? swap lanes?
I know the obv answer is "it depends" but can someone give the options. cause i was thinking jungle but if theres an aggro tri they might just hunt you down.
Pretty much just try your best to live through it and get to level 7 so you can have 4 points in your illusion spell and start farming through the jungle.
Pop your level 1 meta and just get as many last hits as you can / trade harass (since you do a billion damage in meta so trading is effective). You can try holding onto meta and hoping they over extend / dive you and can pick up a kill with your slow and meta. Might be worth putting a point in your ult at level 6 to see if you can punish a kill attempt by their trilane.
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So thing about aggro tri is it means your mid and offlane will not have to worry about rotations (way harder to do unnoticed). You basically need your team to pull up the slack while you passively farm under tower.
If your supports pick well, TB + 2 supports can break even against strong tri lanes.
If the safe lane is lost, have supports abandon and make stuff happen in the other lanes. You can recover later in jungle.
This is the same problem any carry runs in to against aggro tri. The thing is, the pressure is on the aggressive team to shut down your safe lane, if they screw it up, the game is almost certainly lost. Meanwhile the defending team has options for recovery.
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Lets say your team is being killed twice? why not switch the tb and the solo offlaner?
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EPT
