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On October 21 2014 00:12 small_farah wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2014 03:55 Firebolt145 wrote:On October 20 2014 02:30 HopLight wrote:
I find jungling is still possible from level one on this patch even though the extra damage taken from illusions has gotten a lot worse. Before I used to go circlet+circlet+QB, now I think stout+slippers+QB is necessary to tank damage. Wait, are you recommending jungling from level one? I would never do this. T_T its not like spectre or something that can recover from farming safely and getting haunt kills to help your team create space for yourself, and can possibly do things in 2v2 laning situations or other carries that can maybe contribute to winning their lane outright. i mean i guess he has meta and his q but esp with the movespeed nerf idk it just feels that any decent dual lane will just run at u and fuck ur shit up.
....did you seriously just say that spectre is stronger than tb in lane...?
On October 21 2014 10:12 ahw wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 07:28 DV G wrote:On October 21 2014 02:01 FuzioNda1337 wrote:On October 21 2014 01:34 Terrorbladder wrote:
But jungling as TB from level 1 gives your team 2 solo lanes, and only 1 support, which sometimes can result in a horrific disaster. Not if they pick accordingly. Last three times i picked TB and tried to go jungle (Never was 5ht pick, 3rd and once 4th). "I wont solo support" "Only 1 support? Gg I afk" "OMG TB woods, report and muted" this is 4.8k USE. in their defense, playing solo support does, in fact, suck. i generally hate people who pick greedy junglers in solo q, do it with a party
Also yeah the main problem with jungle tb is the pressure it puts on the support, and the fact that you instalose if the other team is smart enough to punish it. If they don't, and if you can convince the support not to report you and afk, you pretty much instawin so I guess it goes both ways.
Again, exactly like dog-in-tree Lycan.
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one of my rules of thumb is to never start off jungling unless ure enigma/chen/ench
i have never even jungled a lycan in 10 years of dota... i always went to a lane to farm
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United States47024 Posts
On October 21 2014 10:22 Belisarius wrote:
Again, exactly like dog-in-tree Lycan.
Lycan at least makes it back for his supports if he properly contributes to breaking the T1 or is able to get Rosh in--so if he does well he generates enough gold for a solo support to be able to manage.
TB does his own shit for the rest of the game just like a regular laning TB does.
Also, it's virtually never the case where having 2 laning supports would give you less overall control of the lanes than putting someone in the jungle. Jungling forces someone to be away from the lanes which always weakens your lanes as a whole (in exchange for farm on the jungler). The strong junglers have tools to turn their farm advantage back into gold/XP for their lanes, but this isn't true of TB.
On October 21 2014 02:01 FuzioNda1337 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 01:34 Terrorbladder wrote:
But jungling as TB from level 1 gives your team 2 solo lanes, and only 1 support, which sometimes can result in a horrific disaster. Not if they pick accordingly.
This logic is backwards. You pick a greedy jungler if your opponent's lanes are weak enough that your teammates can win without you. You don't force a TB jungle then MAKE your team try to pick strong lanes to make up for it, because if the enemy picks strong lanes to counter your greedy jungle, it's not possible for your team to pick heroes that can 4v5 the lanes.
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Well, yeah. Plus its not nice. People like to have fun when playing games, and being stuck solo support when you are running a greedy lineup is often like giving yourself a 50 minute root canal. Save that stuff for your party mmr.
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Yeah I mean it's a fairly dickish thing to do and it's certainly not optimal, but as far as "viable in pubs" goes it functions as well as a lot of other things.
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How would you rate the TB vs AM / TB vs Naga matchup?
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On October 24 2014 10:01 Terrorbladder wrote:
How would you rate the TB vs AM / TB vs Naga matchup?
Tb wins on even grounds.
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United States2186 Posts
Pre 682c TB wrecked them both; farms faster, split pushes more powerfully than naga but less safely and can't control all 3 lanes in a 1v9 game like naga can, and AM is just worse at everything other than being safe to fight earlier. His illusions beat naga illusions easily in a manfight so Naga wouldn't be able to split push efficiently. AM is weak in those lategame brawls vs the extreme lategamers and appropriately gets obliterated by TB in fights as he does no damage to TB and has no armor, particularly if TB has meta and 2 illusions up before AM can blink in.
But then again TB gets punished a lot more now for doing suboptimal builds so maybe things don't go quite as smoothly in those weird illusion battles. It was amazing the level of retardation in item builds you could get away with before, but that seems to kill you now.
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Just shadowblade dagon every game.
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On October 24 2014 10:01 Terrorbladder wrote:
How would you rate the TB vs AM / TB vs Naga matchup?
I think it depends. AM has usage in a deathball push and while he isnt good against tb himself, he can clean up the rest. I can see something like am+dp be effective against TB. That being said am sucks before he gets abyssal in a direct fight because of sunder and high basic armor, I'd rather pick a pa than am vs TB.
I think TB out-Nagas Naga. The things that Naga does better are initiate (i.e. Rosh) and get away, but 4 protect 1 lineups are rarely balanced around ganking, which makes the safer aspect less important. The initiation might be nice, but tb doesnt really need to commit and can solo-rosh, so the rosh-control isnt that helpful because you dont catch out the entire team.
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On October 25 2014 13:54 Blackfeather wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2014 10:01 Terrorbladder wrote:
How would you rate the TB vs AM / TB vs Naga matchup? I think it depends. AM has usage in a deathball push and while he isnt good against tb himself, he can clean up the rest. I can see something like am+dp be effective against TB. That being said am sucks before he gets abyssal in a direct fight because of sunder and high basic armor, I'd rather pick a pa than am vs TB. I think TB out-Nagas Naga. The things that Naga does better are initiate (i.e. Rosh) and get away, but 4 protect 1 lineups are rarely balanced around ganking, which makes the safer aspect less important. The initiation might be nice, but tb doesnt really need to commit and can solo-rosh, so the rosh-control isnt that helpful because you dont catch out the entire team.
u might be underestimating how good mana void is against tb
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are ppl seriously here talking about who is the better 1v1 carry vs carry on TB and AM ? does it even matter?
Everything about that depends, who is leading gpm?`
how well did your team play vs their team, what picks did U get vs what picks did they get and a lot of other questions, if we now gonna go down and have a 1v1 conversation.
We can just might aswell start it with just pick void and chrono and beat the living crap out of the target before he can do anything 
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Assuming I'm having freefarm on lane (plus taking medium and easy camps), having 90cs on 10min, a Yasha, Treads, Qb and Aquila, should I complete a Manta on ~14min or go for Bkb on ~16min and then Manta?
I've read on the forums that Yasha Bkb is better than Manta, since you don't really have mana to spam Manta consistently. What do you guys think?
(assuming a not obvious scenario in which they have 11 stuns or something, ofc)
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if your team wants to fight, get bkb. if you are commited to split push, go manta.
generally delaying your bkb for as long as possible is good. you want to make the most out of the 10/9/8s charge
if your farm is that good you can always go for skaadi and keep the yasha
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Every i got a TB in the ennemy team i just go tri aggro or strong dual to make his life a hell, he is so weak early game, he can be easily force out of farm/xp range you just need to bait the metamorphosis
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On November 20 2014 16:25 Silho wrote:
Assuming I'm having freefarm on lane (plus taking medium and easy camps), having 90cs on 10min, a Yasha, Treads, Qb and Aquila, should I complete a Manta on ~14min or go for Bkb on ~16min and then Manta?
I've read on the forums that Yasha Bkb is better than Manta, since you don't really have mana to spam Manta consistently. What do you guys think?
(assuming a not obvious scenario in which they have 11 stuns or something, ofc)
Bkb only if you really need to fight, of which it means you probably have loss the game already.
Finish skadi, finish manta, then consider bkb in most situations.
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Manta -> Skadi should always be the core. You want to avoid all fights except for free kills until that point. Going manta first isn't bad because even though you can't 5v5 you can threaten towers by yourself as soon as you finish manta (hopefully ~16)
tb lives or dies by his ability to finish skadi at 20-25 minutes
I also like to rotate to the jungle very early and give supports the farm they need to buy you time.
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On October 26 2014 02:40 ChunderBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2014 13:54 Blackfeather wrote:On October 24 2014 10:01 Terrorbladder wrote:
How would you rate the TB vs AM / TB vs Naga matchup? I think it depends. AM has usage in a deathball push and while he isnt good against tb himself, he can clean up the rest. I can see something like am+dp be effective against TB. That being said am sucks before he gets abyssal in a direct fight because of sunder and high basic armor, I'd rather pick a pa than am vs TB. I think TB out-Nagas Naga. The things that Naga does better are initiate (i.e. Rosh) and get away, but 4 protect 1 lineups are rarely balanced around ganking, which makes the safer aspect less important. The initiation might be nice, but tb doesnt really need to commit and can solo-rosh, so the rosh-control isnt that helpful because you dont catch out the entire team. u might be underestimating how good mana void is against tb
I can see why it could be useful, TB has a high mana pool and low hp, but TB actually never needs to spend more than like 400-450 mana unless he uses sunder lvl 1, right? I mean meta+illu+illu+manta costs 375. So AM needs to get out quite a lot of hits.
But i can see what you mean, if you mana void him early on you get rid of his illus. TB himself is only half as scary.
On November 20 2014 16:25 Silho wrote:
Assuming I'm having freefarm on lane (plus taking medium and easy camps), having 90cs on 10min, a Yasha, Treads, Qb and Aquila, should I complete a Manta on ~14min or go for Bkb on ~16min and then Manta?
I've read on the forums that Yasha Bkb is better than Manta, since you don't really have mana to spam Manta consistently. What do you guys think?
(assuming a not obvious scenario in which they have 11 stuns or something, ofc)
Standard before the last patch was brown boots->yasha->skadi->manta->travels if you have freefarm and unless you want manta for safety.
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Any thoughts on QB -> boots -> Yasha -> Radiance -> Manta -> Skadi assuming a good laning phase and free farm?
The map control of travs+manta+radiance seems almost insurmountable.
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On November 23 2014 02:01 Rybka wrote:
Any thoughts on QB -> boots -> Yasha -> Radiance -> Manta -> Skadi assuming a good laning phase and free farm?
The map control of travs+manta+radiance seems almost insurmountable.
Most people these days don't go radiance on TB - it can be okay, but you can still effectively split push with just high stats illusions, and you can fight a lot better earlier on (manta/skadi comes online a lot sooner), which can help turn some fights / win games. Plus, TB destroys towers super easily without going radiance. It can work, yeah, but you get map control anyways in the midgame with this hero barring you aren't too far behind.
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EPT
