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On October 09 2014 04:46 DucK- wrote:
If you wanna rat with TB, you pretty much need a lineup that wont lose within like 25 minutes. I think the way c9 does is that they like to give fata a good mid hero (Puck/Razor) to create this space. He played very well in WCA.
thats true you need a good early/midgame lineup that can fight and fend off their pushes or delay them.
once the game is around 20-25min ish.
it will become really hard for them to finish the game.
thats the goal, its also important to see what other team picks.
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Just wondering, would 3xWraith bands and a blademail work on TB? Like the equivalent to bOne7's Natures Prophets 3xNulls and a blademail.
Would this be legit, considering early stats is what makes TB a good hero?
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On October 13 2014 06:18 vizuaLize wrote:
Just wondering, would 3xWraith bands and a blademail work on TB? Like the equivalent to bOne7's Natures Prophets 3xNulls and a blademail.
Would this be legit, considering early stats is what makes TB a good hero?
Get it in your head that Null -> Blademail build is not even a good build on NP.
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On October 13 2014 06:29 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 06:18 vizuaLize wrote:
Just wondering, would 3xWraith bands and a blademail work on TB? Like the equivalent to bOne7's Natures Prophets 3xNulls and a blademail.
Would this be legit, considering early stats is what makes TB a good hero? Get it in your head that Null -> Blademail build is not even a good build on NP.
I don't know, it works in certain situations. Like if you're up against squishy heroes with high nuke damage, it does wonders. Also, helps you fight earlier than getting a midas + item.
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If you are talking about Midas on TB it's pretty bad. He farms so quickly it just prolongs his weak state of having low HP. A radiance gives you 10cs+ a minute at like 20-22 minutes if your lane went okay, and your creeps explode once you have a manta. A midas is just for levels and at the rate he farms you will have all the experience you really need anyway. I'd rather get a Yasha and increase farming rate.
If you want, check out this replay for how to creep with TB and you will see the midas just puts off your other items.
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/939991302
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On October 13 2014 06:18 vizuaLize wrote:
Just wondering, would 3xWraith bands and a blademail work on TB? Like the equivalent to bOne7's Natures Prophets 3xNulls and a blademail.
Would this be legit, considering early stats is what makes TB a good hero?
Imo, i think not because of the base armour differences. The blademail damageoutput is worse on agiheros in general and scales even worse. the illusionss dont benefit from the item at all and TB allready has damageoutput with E-skill. If you want to be an early manfighter get a PT+RoA+urn+OoV & 4041 and go roaming ending up with (blink+s&)y+bkb+skadi. You have enough manaregen to sustain spamming some spells and the urn gives HP-regen if your succesfull.
Add: I think sven good be a good roamingsupport for terrorblade, as the aghs ultimate boosts the basedamage x2 in 900 aoe. E-damage is basedamage and the illusions benefit from both. Expensive but that aghs damageoutput will be through the roof if you can time the item before lvl17 terrorblade.
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I think you would need the sven as a core. That item is too expensive to just casually pick up as a support unless you are rolling them anyway. The issue is that support sven really wants a blink and he benefits from treads a lot. Meaning you are looking at a support nearing about 8k networth which is kind of a lot unless you purposely cut out farm for him. TB doesn't tend to be too kind about leaving farm for other cores.
I thought about running wisp/tiny mid with safelane sven +1. But a topic for another place I suppose.
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On October 13 2014 06:38 vizuaLize wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 06:29 DucK- wrote:On October 13 2014 06:18 vizuaLize wrote:
Just wondering, would 3xWraith bands and a blademail work on TB? Like the equivalent to bOne7's Natures Prophets 3xNulls and a blademail.
Would this be legit, considering early stats is what makes TB a good hero? Get it in your head that Null -> Blademail build is not even a good build on NP. I don't know, it works in certain situations. Like if you're up against squishy heroes with high nuke damage, it does wonders. Also, helps you fight earlier than getting a midas + item.
Or you could build a dagon and play the exact same way without being played around the blademail. Its also not as though you're tanky enough to absorb such abuse. Anyway i mentioned the reasoning in the prophet thread so we could carry on the discussion there.
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Only reason radiance would be good on TB would be if you got an insanely good start and they cannot contest you even then its bad.
becuse it lowers your farmrate you see, becuse you gotta save up for that relic and that recipie, during that time you have had your other items that have gained you more gold, but sure if you go for that radiance.
Lets say they do not distrupt u, evnethen you cannot farm lanes that well. becuse your illus will melt anyway, not before you got manta/skadi then your illusions starts to become tanky.
Wich means just one nuke and your illu with radi in that lane is gone, sure you can micro it and such but that doesnt matter.
the fact is fast items on TB allows you to farm entire jungle plus a lane is more than enuff.
I just dont see the point of radiance on TB in so many ways.
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On October 13 2014 17:36 FuzioNda1337 wrote:
Only reason radiance would be good on TB would be if you got an insanely good start and they cannot contest you even then its bad.
becuse it lowers your farmrate you see, becuse you gotta save up for that relic and that recipie, during that time you have had your other items that have gained you more gold, but sure if you go for that radiance.
Lets say they do not distrupt u, evnethen you cannot farm lanes that well. becuse your illus will melt anyway, not before you got manta/skadi then your illusions starts to become tanky.
Wich means just one nuke and your illu with radi in that lane is gone, sure you can micro it and such but that doesnt matter.
the fact is fast items on TB allows you to farm entire jungle plus a lane is more than enuff.
I just dont see the point of radiance on TB in so many ways.
Did you watch some progames lately? Most TB's are build for some early items(stats or yasha kind of) then switch to radiance in the mid game to win the war of attrition later on chipping of raxes with mass illusions(naga style). Whole build is for staying alive and contribute early to mid game, then out-push the enemy in late game.
One nuke never ever kill your illusions when you have stats. He is sort of superior naga with good early game potential.
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If you get that radiance and are forcing a hero into that lane just to use a spell on our illusion thats already really damn worth it, considering the radiance burn instantly pushes the lane and u can even just run the illusion back a bit and if they chase it to nuke it LOL.
Even if u dont micro it and they come back to kill the illusion pushing that lane so what, ur farming like 2-3 camps at once, or check runes, force someone to defend a lane, have them walk around the map when u see alot of missing heros while pushing that lane back (if they smoke gank nothing more can come of it if all the lanes arent pushing for them). Have the ability to farm their jungle without too much danger (ofc they probably wont last long unless ur pushing that very lane)
I personally am not sure which build is better but i think ur underestimating radiance if ur only looking at numbers
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If anything, zenoth and matrice have both debunked the myth that stat items doesn't not farm as fast as radiance or can't split push as well. There's really no reason to get radiance unless as fuzion said you can get it absurdly early.
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I don't think there should be a reason to not go BoT+Yasha+stat stacking in pubs. It gives so much to the hero's mobility. Today I won a game with a TB player on my team, which we would have lost had he gone PT instead of BoT. Defended high ground and ratted our way to victory against a Tide+Silencer+QoP lineup.
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Theres always reasons to switch up item builds if the game calls for it. And one game proves little. Ive seen BoT/Yasha TBs get completely destroyed by enemy clinkz/nyx/storm spirit/similar gankers. Few things piss me off more than actually good players (you'd think they are at least since they got their way pretty high rating somehow) completely derping their item build or following "build X" because they saw/read someone else used it successfully somewhere. Yea good look running around farming with 900hp against a 13min orchid clinkz.
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On October 13 2014 22:49 Kreb wrote:
Theres always reasons to switch up item builds if the game calls for it. And one game proves little. Ive seen BoT/Yasha TBs get completely destroyed by enemy clinkz/nyx/storm spirit/similar gankers. Few things piss me off more than actually good players (you'd think they are at least since they got their way pretty high rating somehow) completely derping their item build or following "build X" because they saw/read someone else used it successfully somewhere. Yea good look running around farming with 900hp against a 13min orchid clinkz.
Well there's nothing much you can do actually except maybe get an earlier manta, but its not like that is a good solution. Or maybe adapt with a defensive ghost. Or have wards. In general you're still gonna follow the general build after a little bit of adaptation.
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I treat TB as a rat hero in the early and midgame, where you just non stop push the safe lane after your pms/treads/yasha/radiance and force the other team to commit a hero there or lose the tower. Meanwhile you are safely farming the jungle and can tp to fights fairly easily, and your team is fighting 4v4.
What is an absurdly early radiance? sub 18mins? sub 20? Because sub 20 is pretty damn easy with the PMS treads yasha build
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On October 13 2014 18:33 DucK- wrote:
If anything, zenoth and matrice have both debunked the myth that stat items doesn't not farm as fast as radiance or can't split push as well. There's really no reason to get radiance unless as fuzion said you can get it absurdly early.
How does it feel to say something so unabashedly wrong? Several posts above I linked a radiance TB game with 21 creeps a minute. A friend of mine who pl ays TB has an average GPM of 822, which is higher than both Zenoth and Matrice, with his highest game having 21 creeps a minute.
So either you are saying matrice/zenoth are not good, or you have to admit that radiance can farm faster.
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On October 14 2014 10:14 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 18:33 DucK- wrote:
If anything, zenoth and matrice have both debunked the myth that stat items doesn't not farm as fast as radiance or can't split push as well. There's really no reason to get radiance unless as fuzion said you can get it absurdly early. How does it feel to say something so unabashedly wrong? Several posts above I linked a radiance TB game with 21 creeps a minute. A friend of mine who pl ays TB has an average GPM of 822, which is higher than both Zenoth and Matrice, with his highest game having 21 creeps a minute. So either you are saying matrice/zenoth are not good, or you have to admit that radiance can farm faster.
i've watched those games, and this is strictly observational. if you want to look at the farm rate pre-and-after radiance purchase and compare it to someone who builds differently, it's very similar.
it's an easier form of farming, yes, yet with that style the rest of your team is suffocated from getting any sort of farm on their own with the exception of ancients and objective gold. is this strictly PvE?
seriously, no offense to the guy, but after a certain point you're just inflating that number for the sake of it. he's farming jungle when the final rax is about to fall instead of ending it while freshly 6-slotted BoTs, double BFLY, Skadi, Radiance, Manta with buyback.
It's like spamming APM at the end of the game when all you've got to do is a-click to win.
There is a reason why these games last so long (40+) and it's because it's a stack that doesn't mind playing a slow game on the back of 4.5v5 and winning eventually through terrorblade.
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radiance is the worst legit tb build
its not bad because tbs so good but you really shouldn't do it
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 On October 14 2014 10:14 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 18:33 DucK- wrote:
If anything, zenoth and matrice have both debunked the myth that stat items doesn't not farm as fast as radiance or can't split push as well. There's really no reason to get radiance unless as fuzion said you can get it absurdly early. How does it feel to say something so unabashedly wrong? Several posts above I linked a radiance TB game with 21 creeps a minute. A friend of mine who pl ays TB has an average GPM of 822, which is higher than both Zenoth and Matrice, with his highest game having 21 creeps a minute. So either you are saying matrice/zenoth are not good, or you have to admit that radiance can farm faster.
Well I guess I have to admit that I am wrong. I did my own checks, and yea it seems radiance builds farm faster. But my point still stands that whatever split push shenanigans you try to pull off with radiance tb, zenoth/matrice has proved that you can do it effectively without radiance.
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EPT
