EPT[Hero] Terrorblade - Page 22
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Varth
United States426 Posts
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ahw
Canada1099 Posts
i've watched the other players mentioned in this thread and i see the strength in rushing stat items and optimizing your 6-slot. that said the map control is not the same effectiveness at the 18 min mark. the stat difference kicks in after the skadi and first butterfly finishes, that seems to be when the stat-focused build hits its stride. theres the argument that you leave your team vulnerable while farming relic. yea, but with the yasha/bots build, you leave your team vulnerable while farming your 2k bots recipe and 2k ultimate orb. thats a 4k gold window similar to relic that gives u little teamfight usefulness (although pretty good rat potential) and no treads switching if the game gets to 35+ minutes you are going to have to sell your radiance/treads for more stats/evasion and bots when you are 6 slotted. no big deal. that doesn't change the effectiveness of the item for map control for the 20 minutes you can rely on it. 2500 gold back good investment maybe its the level i play it,4.5k ish bracket solo and party, it might just be easier to execute radiance. it seems easier mechanically but thanks for the replays guys always good to check out high level players | ||
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Noya
Uruguay11223 Posts
On August 05 2014 01:58 Comeh wrote: If you have 600 gpm with radiance, you probably have too poor of micro to be playing the hero anyways. You should easily have over 700, more towards over 800. You need 600 GPM at minute 16~18 to achieve the build you proposed that's what I was talking about. | ||
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Surprise.820
United Kingdom1276 Posts
edit: NVM I see what you mean now lol | ||
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deadmau
960 Posts
On August 04 2014 18:30 ChunderBoy wrote: there are retards out there that use manta in ranged form to farm. top kek Is the problem with using manta in ranged form to farm that the ranged illusions deal a tad less dmg and a take a tad more dmg? Otherwise it's not jumping out at the screen why it's so bad to manta in ranged form for farming. Or is it because the illusions don't last that long? | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On August 05 2014 02:57 ahw wrote: i've watched the other players mentioned in this thread and i see the strength in rushing stat items and optimizing your 6-slot. that said the map control is not the same effectiveness at the 18 min mark. the stat difference kicks in after the skadi and first butterfly finishes, that seems to be when the stat-focused build hits its stride. This is really the point I was making more so than farm speed, with Naga and AM a Radiance and Bfury arguably have a spot in a 6 slot build, even for very long games. Meanwhile on a TB the radiance always strikes me as more of a farming tool where stats actually works better for some of what TB does beyond farming (primarily bullying supports with illusions and sieging towers). It's not bad of course, but most of what I see radiance do late game on someone like Naga I see stats TB doing as well. To me that's what makes radiance and bfury really desirable for AM and Naga, they increase farm speed dramatically, but still have a purpose where that invested gold keeps paying out well into the late game, I'm not sure that's there for TB and maybe it's still worth getting for faster farming, but it seems like there's a reasonable objection to getting it. | ||
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Noya
Uruguay11223 Posts
http://dotabuff.com/matches/816920134 (match from 40 mins ago) If you check it, creeps die fast enough for rad to even make a difference. 6 slotted at 35min O.o | ||
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ChunderBoy
3242 Posts
On August 05 2014 04:10 deadmau wrote: Is the problem with using manta in ranged form to farm that the ranged illusions deal a tad less dmg and a take a tad more dmg? Otherwise it's not jumping out at the screen why it's so bad to manta in ranged form for farming. Or is it because the illusions don't last that long? melee illusions do 33% dmg and get quelling blade bonus, have 1.5 BAT ranged illusions do 28% dmg but +80 from meta, have 1.6 BAT so the illusion dmg against creeps is comparable. BUT melee manta has 35sec cd range manta has 50sec cd... bet u didnt know that, bet noone knew that On August 05 2014 04:36 Noya wrote: This guy just proves how you don't need radiance http://dotabuff.com/matches/816920134 (match from 40 mins ago) If you check it, creeps die fast enough for rad to even make a difference. http://dotabuff.com/matches/545280656 http://dotabuff.com/matches/545163633 http://dotabuff.com/matches/548742079 and i proved that if u only build green items that u own... haha epic but im still going to say that radiance builds are better if u are better at the game. radiance has other uses than farming u know.... tb is a pretty shitty hero if u are clever at the game, but most ppl are sheep that follow trendsetters so they cant think for themselves. | ||
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Noya
Uruguay11223 Posts
travels are legit but aren't green so idk | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40186 Posts
Now, how much gpm will radiance give for farming in this case? 100? 150? 200? Well, fuck, because it will bring a profit of 1k gold by the time you will have 30k+ networth. So, what else does it give that TB does not have on his own. From top of my head only ability to bring creep waves away (can't really do that as easily without radiance) and disabling blinks. And now the trick question: why the fuck would you not pick a naga/spectre in this case? TB's strength is ability to eat towers ala lycan, and i don't see anybody trying to build stuff that only kills creeps and harms heroes on lycan, but rather stuff that kills heroes/towers alike. | ||
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ChunderBoy
3242 Posts
On August 05 2014 07:05 lolfail9001 wrote: Look guys, i think we can agree that with just stat items TB can farm at 600+ gpm and at 700-800+ if he is balling. Now, how much gpm will radiance give for farming in this case? 100? 150? 200? Well, fuck, because it will bring a profit of 1k gold by the time you will have 30k+ networth. So, what else does it give that TB does not have on his own. From top of my head only ability to bring creep waves away (can't really do that as easily without radiance) and disabling blinks. And now the trick question: why the fuck would you not pick a naga/spectre in this case? TB's strength is ability to eat towers ala lycan, and i don't see anybody trying to build stuff that only kills creeps and harms heroes on lycan, but rather stuff that kills heroes/towers alike. tb illusions getting towers will nvr work in a real game anyway... hes just weak | ||
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ahw
Canada1099 Posts
On August 05 2014 07:05 lolfail9001 wrote: Look guys, i think we can agree that with just stat items TB can farm at 600+ gpm and at 700-800+ if he is balling. Now, how much gpm will radiance give for farming in this case? 100? 150? 200? Well, fuck, because it will bring a profit of 1k gold by the time you will have 30k+ networth. So, what else does it give that TB does not have on his own. From top of my head only ability to bring creep waves away (can't really do that as easily without radiance) and disabling blinks. And now the trick question: why the fuck would you not pick a naga/spectre in this case? TB's strength is ability to eat towers ala lycan, and i don't see anybody trying to build stuff that only kills creeps and harms heroes on lycan, but rather stuff that kills heroes/towers alike. tb hits a 25-30 min timing and beasts down multiple raxes after team fights. neither spec or naga do this naga is more play it out and starve for 40 mins the big thing radiance gives is map control, keeping multiple waves across the river regardless of ur position. its good for farming as well but its just about map control. they will often have to commit supports to stop the illusions, and then cores will have to commit when you get skadi. | ||
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zelphin
47 Posts
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40186 Posts
On August 05 2014 09:16 zelphin wrote: well plz dont just compare gpm or w/e one pro that radiance gives is that it lets u cut waves like none other Radiance allows you cut waves? Well, getting skadi and just auto-attacking those heroes does too. It does not allow to drag away the camped wave, but the only case when you are in need of that is when you are dragging the game out aka doing it wrong. And unfortunately, greatest reason any hero in this game gets radiance is for flash-farm and winning via outlasting. So GPM is actually a highly important measurement here, especially since 2nd metric does not apply to TB by any mean (i mean, nobody will ever suggest to play TB as if it was spirit bear and go ham on towers 1v5 with a single slot consisting of radiance). On Spec or Naga, radiance will add up as much as 300 gpm, thus paying for itself in at most 20 minutes, that both of those heroes can actually buy (time) if they are not too far behind when radiance is obtained. On TB, this pay-off period can be as late as time when TB himself is 6-slotted, since he well, farms without radiance at hilarious speed too. | ||
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ahw
Canada1099 Posts
On August 05 2014 10:48 lolfail9001 wrote: Radiance allows you cut waves? Well, getting skadi and just auto-attacking those heroes does too. It does not allow to drag away the camped wave, but the only case when you are in need of that is when you are dragging the game out aka doing it wrong. And unfortunately, greatest reason any hero in this game gets radiance is for flash-farm and winning via outlasting. So GPM is actually a highly important measurement here, especially since 2nd metric does not apply to TB by any mean (i mean, nobody will ever suggest to play TB as if it was spirit bear and go ham on towers 1v5 with a single slot consisting of radiance). On Spec or Naga, radiance will add up as much as 300 gpm, thus paying for itself in at most 20 minutes, that both of those heroes can actually buy (time) if they are not too far behind when radiance is obtained. On TB, this pay-off period can be as late as time when TB himself is 6-slotted, since he well, farms without radiance at hilarious speed too. radiance shoves the waves back to the enemy towers faster than any other item pre-20 mins. thats the big advantage, space, gpm aside. makes it easy to farm the jungle/ancients, the enemy jungle, or take big objectives like rosh. it generally creates openings for you to make good trades if team fights start. it really makes it hard for the other team to take objectives | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On August 05 2014 10:48 lolfail9001 wrote: Radiance allows you cut waves? Well, getting skadi and just auto-attacking those heroes does too. It does not allow to drag away the camped wave, but the only case when you are in need of that is when you are dragging the game out aka doing it wrong. And unfortunately, greatest reason any hero in this game gets radiance is for flash-farm and winning via outlasting. So GPM is actually a highly important measurement here, especially since 2nd metric does not apply to TB by any mean (i mean, nobody will ever suggest to play TB as if it was spirit bear and go ham on towers 1v5 with a single slot consisting of radiance). On Spec or Naga, radiance will add up as much as 300 gpm, thus paying for itself in at most 20 minutes, that both of those heroes can actually buy (time) if they are not too far behind when radiance is obtained. On TB, this pay-off period can be as late as time when TB himself is 6-slotted, since he well, farms without radiance at hilarious speed too. Why do you assert bad information so confidently? A lot of this stuff is so mis-informed, misleading, and just generally bad analysis. One part really stuck out to me though: And unfortunately, greatest reason any hero in this game gets radiance is for flash-farm and winning via outlasting. No! That's just completely wrong! And just because you say it repeatedly for two pages doesn't make it correct! While Radiance certainly speeds up a hero's farm, GPM boosting isn't the sole reason you get this on a carry. For illusion-based heroes, Radiance provides a lot of little advantages that add up into it being an optimal item choice. Just consider some of the possibilities of this item in a terrorblade game:
This list is nowhere near complete, and there's just so much this item can do in competent hands. But if you don't listen to me, atleast listen to the 6k mmr carry that's been posting in the thread. On August 04 2014 18:30 ChunderBoy wrote: ... and radiance is just an item that gets better the better u are overall at the game, game knowledge etc... ^ If you understand what the item is capable of on an illusion hero, you'll understand that no item will give you the combination of farm/map-control/harassing/damage/etc that this item provides. | ||
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deadmau
960 Posts
On August 05 2014 04:56 ChunderBoy wrote: melee illusions do 33% dmg and get quelling blade bonus, have 1.5 BAT ranged illusions do 28% dmg but +80 from meta, have 1.6 BAT so the illusion dmg against creeps is comparable. BUT melee manta has 35sec cd range manta has 50sec cd... bet u didnt know that, bet noone knew that Nope I didn't know it, i'll give you that. But I wondered why this tidbit slipped my mind, I checked patch updates, and this change was during my brief break from DotA, trying to climb the SC2 ladder (unsuccessfully). I had no idea about this till now and I've been back for a year. As for Radiance and TB, I think it's as good as the suggested alternatives, but a lot of people just aren't comparing the two correctly. I see things like GPM, which is great, easily quantifiable and comparable; but outside of numbers choosing one route over another has a lot more considerations than just farm rate. Above sounds about right for radiance, but when i dont go radiance, I feel I can be just as effective, though I do prefer one of over the other because personal preference (go figure) On August 05 2014 14:47 Hapahauli wrote: But if you don't listen to me, atleast listen to the 6k mmr carry that's been posting in the thread. Ehh and you shouldn't be saying things because 6k mmr this, 7k mmr that, that's the sole reason people don't use brain and follow like sheep. To some degree you should use your better judgement no matter the mmr or cause "da proz." Use brain. And in beesa case, most have determined is credible so we don't need to go there. | ||
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DucK-
Singapore11446 Posts
I think the whole use radiance illusions to farm everywhere on naga/tb is a disgusting way to play the game. I would never ever feel good winning this way even if it means a 80min comeback against mega etc. Main reason is that there are more than one ways to play these 2 heroes, and the alternatives are not exactly bad, but certainly more interactive and fun. That's how casual pub players should be playing, unless you are so desperate for MMR and pick TB/naga every game... With all that said, one day I'm going to get refresher on tb. Go in with low life, sunder refresh sunder to give the enemy hope, and proceed to still kill him. One day I'll do it.... | ||
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ahw
Canada1099 Posts
On August 05 2014 18:52 DucK- wrote: I'm probably the only one who skips illusion for some stats, because fuck mass farming. I just wanna shoot heroes. Not that its the optimal way to play him though, its just my preference. I think the whole use radiance illusions to farm everywhere on naga/tb is a disgusting way to play the game. I would never ever feel good winning this way even if it means a 80min comeback against mega etc. Main reason is that there are more than one ways to play these 2 heroes, and the alternatives are not exactly bad, but certainly more interactive and fun. That's how casual pub players should be playing, unless you are so desperate for MMR and pick TB/naga every game... With all that said, one day I'm going to get refresher on tb. Go in with low life, sunder refresh sunder to give the enemy hope, and proceed to still kill him. One day I'll do it.... refresh meta + 1 extra illusion + manta cooldown.. op if you play a terrorblade game that gets to 80 minutes, something has gone terribly terribly (lol get it) wrong for about 40 minutes. my favourite part of playing him is he generally is pretty swift at ending the game when ahead compared to other illusion heroes cause he just gets item capped but to move beyond the radiance/noradiance discussion, i think some yolobuilds are in order. I'm thinkin armlet would be pretty fun, treads/armlet/mom/manta and go for it | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On August 05 2014 19:24 ahw wrote: refresh meta + 1 extra illusion + manta cooldown.. op if you play a terrorblade game that gets to 80 minutes, something has gone terribly terribly (lol get it) wrong for about 40 minutes. my favourite part of playing him is he generally is pretty swift at ending the game when ahead compared to other illusion heroes cause he just gets item capped but to move beyond the radiance/noradiance discussion, i think some yolobuilds are in order. I'm thinkin armlet would be pretty fun, treads/armlet/mom/manta and go for it Forget refresher for the meta cooldown, I wanna see Satanic + Refresher for a x4 life TB (2x Unholy Rages and 2x Sunder) | ||
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