I don't know man. Matu used to be much better at playing these Vipers and Venomancers but now I feel like I don't see him doing anything on those heroes half the time. He's just there. He's not scaling as well as the other cores, he's not farming well, and he's not making space.

its_a_me

Austria612 Posts

April 01 2018 10:55 GMT

#5643

Their play feels so forced, they dont feel comfortable in the current meta and they try to brute something that isnt working.
Currently only their skill is carrying them.

juuto

809 Posts

April 01 2018 11:02 GMT

#5644

On April 01 2018 19:55 its_a_me wrote:
Their play feels so forced, they dont feel comfortable in the current meta and they try to brute something that isnt working.
Currently only their skill is carrying them.

It definitely feels like they're forcing something that's not working. I just don't see how these Viper or Venomancer picks for Matu have worked out like they used to at TI. I do believe that in the right game it works, there were good showings in Bucharest, but they seriously can't be picking these "green" heroes as if they're universally great.

its_a_me

Austria612 Posts

April 01 2018 11:38 GMT

#5645

its not the losing that angers me... Its this stupid forcing the same shit every game. Why dont they pick more DK, Naix, Gyro, SF dual Core. Hell pick Lycan or Necro as long as you stop that stupid OG style 4p1 that isnt working.

NInoff

Bulgaria1105 Posts

April 01 2018 11:54 GMT

#5646

I've been telling you for couple of months now - its the drafts that kills the team. In the most important game picking rubick Mid? Thats more of a draft for a casual game ...

hunter_x

Germany2762 Posts

April 01 2018 11:59 GMT

#5647

really bad games today, thats true. the real tournament still is about to start with the bo3 series. Lets hope they can perform better then

juuto

809 Posts

April 01 2018 11:59 GMT

#5648

I know Liquid is trying things, I don't mind too much but they also gotta play better than they do now. These different drafts have to work someday rather than constantly failing. I'm completely underwhelmed by GH, MC, and Matumbaman at the moment.

BigO

Sweden956 Posts

April 01 2018 13:11 GMT

#5649

Just watching their game vs Optic, it feels like their warding after the laning stage is quite lacking. No safe space for Miracle to farm and they get caught out all over the map. Maybe it's intentional to save wards for later, but it really sets them back alot.

juuto

809 Posts

April 01 2018 13:17 GMT

#5650

Eventually, they have to wake up, right? They were dumb enough to pick Rubick mid one game for shits and giggles and then they perform even worse in the next three games? You gotta be kidding me.

Saechiis

Netherlands4989 Posts

April 01 2018 13:21 GMT

#5651

I was wrong. I thought they were just trying stuff out but there's no way competitors like them would tank 5 games in a row if they had something better. The team is in a lot worse shape than I thought.

Toadesstern

Germany16350 Posts

April 01 2018 13:24 GMT

#5652

On April 01 2018 20:59 juuto wrote:
I know Liquid is trying things, I don't mind too much but they also gotta play better than they do now. These different drafts have to work someday rather than constantly failing. I'm completely underwhelmed by GH, MC, and Matumbaman at the moment.

Miracle also made a bunch of questionable moves going in really agressive 1v3, getting maledicted and stunned and just dying without anything just now etc...

I mean realistically speaking Liquid has gone:
0-1 vs Newbee
0-2 vs LGD
0-1 vs Vici
1-1 vs TNC
1-0 vs OG
1-1 vs Optic
1-0 vs Keen

that's really not what you expect from a top3 team and it's quite clear they're having some issues right now. It's all Secret+VP right now as the A-Tier teams, and then a bunch of teams like Liquid, Optic, LGD, Minesky, EG etc all playing roughly at the same level right now where everyone can beat everyone depending on the day. At least the difference isn't as big as VP compared to whoever would be #3 and I don't want to go more into detail when there's really no need for that

Don't get me wrong, they absolutely deserve their DPC top3 spot for how dominating they have been playing but there's something going wrong the last couple weeks or even months that needs to be pointed out.

juuto

809 Posts

April 01 2018 13:48 GMT

#5653

Liquid was in the running for the top spot in the groups up until today.

I'd rather just be ultra dramatic about how Liquid is performing today and letting myself emotionally whine and bitch about their last few games rather than talking about the overall state of Liquid. They've got Top 4 at every event including with a standin and Kuro playing core. This is just a really awful day and I feel like I'm also projecting a lot of my hatred of bo1s onto them.

There are some overall problems I'd gladly like to talk about on another day but I feel like if we do get into talking about the overall state of Liquid today, we'd be discussing it when our heads aren't clear which isn't a good idea imo.

[Edit]: Kuro's egotistical ass is going for the all hero challenge. Someone stop him.

Savatage

Italy182 Posts

April 01 2018 13:53 GMT

#5654

what the fuck is going on with those drafts? it's a fucking major not midas mode ffs.

I can't believe what i am watching...

juuto

809 Posts

April 01 2018 14:01 GMT

#5655

They better not surprise us with a new hero before Kuro completes his challenge.

Badjas

Netherlands2038 Posts

April 01 2018 14:47 GMT

#5656

Maybe Liquid is saving strats. More likely I feel that they're trying to have fun, with Miracle's recent break in mind.

No matter the result, I did enjoy watching mid rubick.

MintberryCrunchs

Germany462 Posts

April 01 2018 15:46 GMT

#5657

I couldnt agree more!

My point of view on that matter:

The more talented a team is, the more difficult it becomes to find a stable playstyle that incorporates the strenght and personality of every individual players.
Needless to say, Team Liquid has both talent and character in spades.

They had found a very refined and stable playstyle arround TI7 that made everyone on the team shine and won them the big trophy.
They where able to establish "their game" with a multitude of heroes, making it allmost impossible to outdraft them.
I think many would agree that they looked (nearly?) unstopable at that time.

But the meta changed and so many aspects of what was core for their strategies got nerfed or changed and on top of that, teams also learned to play better and even counter liquids way of playing.

I think its is very hard for a team to put away such a hard earned and refined way of playing and reinvent themself completly.
But it is probably what liquid is about to do or at least try and also what they are doomed to, if they want to get the big trophy again.

P.S::When i refer to liquids playstyle during TI7 i would summarize it as a heavy early/midgame focused tricore lineups that like to end the game at roughly 30 minutes.

hunter_x

Germany2762 Posts

April 01 2018 16:04 GMT

#5658

So vg.j it is, should be the weakest team that is left in the tournament. Should be pretty managable, it's a bo3 after all. After that we play the endboss already, that's a little bit scary;)

LemOn

United Kingdom8629 Posts

April 01 2018 19:30 GMT

#5659

We better fucking win and not deprive me of a Liquid VP series!

noh2o

China71 Posts

April 02 2018 00:21 GMT

#5660

yes,i agree.
they are trying things,when tl vs lgd,bh came out,when tl vs op,veno came out,
No matter how far they can go in this troument
i love this guys