On October 04 2014 03:54 FHDH wrote: Watching Kuroky dominate at carry and Puppey's drafts stomping on top-tier teams hurts my heart.
Ughhhhhh
I can't say anything about kky, I love him.
But Puppey, I would really hate him, so so so much, if he just by changing teams his drafting became godlike. This just because, no matter how much Xboct feeds and fks up, drafting was always his responsibility and given the rumors of him being a jerk and not listening to anyone it would be even worse, in my opinion and feelings.
I would feel the same about Xboct if that were the case.
Theres probably more to the story. I remember in Epi's interview with Kuroky after TI3 Kuroky said "These people(other navi members) have no right to complain (about picks)". Made it seem like they give suggestions but don't really put effort into helping kuro and puppey pick.
At one point he even used strong language to say other people in the team (I think it was XBOCT) should not complain about bad picks unless they help with the picks.
That's bullshit, though. They brought in Goblak for TI4 for no other purpose than to help out with analysis / strats / drafting, and pretty much everyone agreed that Puppey completely ignored anything that wasn't in complete agreement with what he wanted to do. Goblak said himself that he felt like he was wasting his time with Na'Vi because of that.
From that interview I was under the impression that no effort was really made by the other members into drafting, ofc each of them practiced mechanics and such. This was Kuroky talking about Na'Vi during TI2 till Ti3. It is pretty much confirmed after TI3 that they distrusted each other and that there were serious problems between XBOCT and Kuroky.
In otherwords Puppey and Kuro started ignoring everyone because the atmosphere was not good.IIRC I'm 80% sure in that Epi interview Kuro said he wanted(or told) to tell XBOCT to stfu and stop complaining about picks unless he contributed to the draft.
The atmosphere was probably toxic, with 2 clans ignoring each other. I'm sure Hvost isn't the only one to be blamed for this. I'm pretty sure Kuro can be quite an arrogant guy aswell. And anyway Puppey was the captain, it was its job to get through the bullshit internal issues, not isolating himself with kuro and ignoring his teammates / Goblak.
Now about the WCA performance, I don't really understand why Hvost is, again, getting all the hate. The main issue I witnessed was that beside the laning phase, navi was just completely lost. Unable to push their advantage, to control the map, to pressure the highground. There was some individual misplays (especially from Hvost I admit that) but still, it won't have changed how awful their decision making was. And to be honest, I feel that fng's draft puts too much emphasis on picking heroes they are comfortable with, and rarely seem to be related to a general game plan.
So yeah you may blame Hvost as much as you want, they still lost a game with a 20k gold advantage. It has a lot more to do with their decision making, than individual mistakes in my opinion.
On October 04 2014 22:47 zdfgucker wrote: I think that 20min gg push meta wasn't what Puppey is used to. Now, with longer games and back to carries being carries, Puppey can shine again. Same goes for Loda drafting for Alliance, rat is back.
Overall the scene benefited from the fall of these insane stacks (Na'Vi, LGD int) as we got more good teams now that mix up the scene a bit. Na'Vi is at its weakest this year, I'd say.
So, its not that Puppey's draft sucked back then but instead the meta didn't fitted his draft. In other words, what we were discussing all along. And now it is all Xboct fault, not because he sucks but because Puppey shines thanks to the new patch. In fact, given the current state, if thing went back, Na´Vi would shine again. All thanks to Ppy's draft and Xboct's performance with hard carries.
Lets blame Zero Gravity!!
What are you on about? :S Na'Vi would be stronger right now had they not changed their roster but that would not have changed the team atmosphere. Overall the scene got better and Na'Vi got worse. I think Xboct is a good carry but compared to someone like Black or kky his decision making is bad. That's not to say he's the sole reason for their slump, pretty much none of their players really showed much of their potential during the tournament, they all got destroyed.
On October 04 2014 23:42 Gevna wrote: The atmosphere was probably toxic, with 2 clans ignoring each other. I'm sure Hvost isn't the only one to be blamed for this. I'm pretty sure Kuro can be quite an arrogant guy aswell. And anyway Puppey was the captain, it was its job to get through the bullshit internal issues, not isolating himself with kuro and ignoring his teammates / Goblak.
Now about the WCA performance, I don't really understand why Hvost is, again, getting all the hate. The main issue I witnessed was that beside the laning phase, navi was just completely lost. Unable to push their advantage, to control the map, to pressure the highground. There was some individual misplays (especially from Hvost I admit that) but still, it won't have changed how awful their decision making was. And to be honest, I feel that fng's draft puts too much emphasis on picking heroes they are comfortable with, and rarely seem to be related to a general game plan.
So yeah you may blame Hvost as much as you want, they still lost a game with a 20k gold advantage. It has a lot more to do with their decision making, than individual mistakes in my opinion.
When XBOCT starts playing properly not getting cough constantly in a position where they cant trade when he dies then you can come back and say "well it isn't only XBOCT's fault". I am sorry this team feels disjointed all together dendi does hes thing so does funn1k then you have the supports and all of a sudden XBOCT decides to feed take not needed risks what so ever like he has no game sense and just zones out from hes team mates.
This team at the moment works like 2supports working around funn1k dendi + random farming carry it is bound to be disastrous.
On October 04 2014 22:47 zdfgucker wrote: I think that 20min gg push meta wasn't what Puppey is used to. Now, with longer games and back to carries being carries, Puppey can shine again. Same goes for Loda drafting for Alliance, rat is back.
Overall the scene benefited from the fall of these insane stacks (Na'Vi, LGD int) as we got more good teams now that mix up the scene a bit. Na'Vi is at its weakest this year, I'd say.
So, its not that Puppey's draft sucked back then but instead the meta didn't fitted his draft. In other words, what we were discussing all along. And now it is all Xboct fault, not because he sucks but because Puppey shines thanks to the new patch. In fact, given the current state, if thing went back, Na´Vi would shine again. All thanks to Ppy's draft and Xboct's performance with hard carries.
Lets blame Zero Gravity!!
What are you on about? :S Na'Vi would be stronger right now had they not changed their roster but that would not have changed the team atmosphere. Overall the scene got better and Na'Vi got worse. I think Xboct is a good carry but compared to someone like Black or kky his decision making is bad. That's not to say he's the sole reason for their slump, pretty much none of their players really showed much of their potential during the tournament, they all got destroyed.
What am I on about? Puppey's drafting was awful, not because of the meta but because of his inability to adapt and listen to others, now that the game is kinda his thing he is godlike again? No sir, I won't excuse a guy with that kind of attitude, not even if he wins TI5. Xboct may need to be replaced, I don't care about him at all.
On October 04 2014 23:42 Gevna wrote: The atmosphere was probably toxic, with 2 clans ignoring each other. I'm sure Hvost isn't the only one to be blamed for this. I'm pretty sure Kuro can be quite an arrogant guy aswell. And anyway Puppey was the captain, it was its job to get through the bullshit internal issues, not isolating himself with kuro and ignoring his teammates / Goblak.
Now about the WCA performance, I don't really understand why Hvost is, again, getting all the hate. The main issue I witnessed was that beside the laning phase, navi was just completely lost. Unable to push their advantage, to control the map, to pressure the highground. There was some individual misplays (especially from Hvost I admit that) but still, it won't have changed how awful their decision making was. And to be honest, I feel that fng's draft puts too much emphasis on picking heroes they are comfortable with, and rarely seem to be related to a general game plan.
So yeah you may blame Hvost as much as you want, they still lost a game with a 20k gold advantage. It has a lot more to do with their decision making, than individual mistakes in my opinion.
When XBOCT starts playing properly not getting cough constantly in a position where they cant trade when he dies then you can come back and say "well it isn't only XBOCT's fault". I am sorry this team feels disjointed all together dendi does hes thing so does funn1k then you have the supports and all of a sudden XBOCT decides to feed take not needed risks what so ever like he has no game sense and just zones out from hes team mates.
This team at the moment works like 2supports working around funn1k dendi + random farming carry it is bound to be disastrous.
Please, everyone remember that this team was showing really good performances no more than 20 days ago, once again we got a new patch. So stop with this nonsense. The team could need a while to get used to it. This is not the case of Ppy, whose drafting went from awful to great thanks to a few changes. If tomorrow we were to get a rollback from the patch things may go again back as well.
On October 04 2014 22:47 zdfgucker wrote: I think that 20min gg push meta wasn't what Puppey is used to. Now, with longer games and back to carries being carries, Puppey can shine again. Same goes for Loda drafting for Alliance, rat is back.
Overall the scene benefited from the fall of these insane stacks (Na'Vi, LGD int) as we got more good teams now that mix up the scene a bit. Na'Vi is at its weakest this year, I'd say.
So, its not that Puppey's draft sucked back then but instead the meta didn't fitted his draft. In other words, what we were discussing all along. And now it is all Xboct fault, not because he sucks but because Puppey shines thanks to the new patch. In fact, given the current state, if thing went back, Na´Vi would shine again. All thanks to Ppy's draft and Xboct's performance with hard carries.
Lets blame Zero Gravity!!
What are you on about? :S Na'Vi would be stronger right now had they not changed their roster but that would not have changed the team atmosphere. Overall the scene got better and Na'Vi got worse. I think Xboct is a good carry but compared to someone like Black or kky his decision making is bad. That's not to say he's the sole reason for their slump, pretty much none of their players really showed much of their potential during the tournament, they all got destroyed.
What am I on about? Puppey's drafting was awful, not because of the meta but because of his inability to adapt and listen to others, now that the game is kinda his thing he is godlike again? No sir, I won't excuse a guy with that kind of attitude, not even if he wins TI5. Xboct may need to be replaced, I don't care about him at all.
On October 04 2014 23:42 Gevna wrote: The atmosphere was probably toxic, with 2 clans ignoring each other. I'm sure Hvost isn't the only one to be blamed for this. I'm pretty sure Kuro can be quite an arrogant guy aswell. And anyway Puppey was the captain, it was its job to get through the bullshit internal issues, not isolating himself with kuro and ignoring his teammates / Goblak.
Now about the WCA performance, I don't really understand why Hvost is, again, getting all the hate. The main issue I witnessed was that beside the laning phase, navi was just completely lost. Unable to push their advantage, to control the map, to pressure the highground. There was some individual misplays (especially from Hvost I admit that) but still, it won't have changed how awful their decision making was. And to be honest, I feel that fng's draft puts too much emphasis on picking heroes they are comfortable with, and rarely seem to be related to a general game plan.
So yeah you may blame Hvost as much as you want, they still lost a game with a 20k gold advantage. It has a lot more to do with their decision making, than individual mistakes in my opinion.
When XBOCT starts playing properly not getting cough constantly in a position where they cant trade when he dies then you can come back and say "well it isn't only XBOCT's fault". I am sorry this team feels disjointed all together dendi does hes thing so does funn1k then you have the supports and all of a sudden XBOCT decides to feed take not needed risks what so ever like he has no game sense and just zones out from hes team mates.
This team at the moment works like 2supports working around funn1k dendi + random farming carry it is bound to be disastrous.
Please, everyone remember that this team was showing really good performances no more than 20 days ago, once again we got a new patch. So stop with this nonsense. The team could need a while to get used to it. This is not the case of Ppy, whose drafting went from awful to great thanks to a few changes. If tomorrow we were to get a rollback from the patch things may go again back as well.
Please......how is the patch is of any relevance when XBOCT just dies randomly on the map it doesn't matter what number the patch has when hes playing. How is the patch in any relevance when the team just feels like 5 guys just randomly playing in a pub game where supports try to help each of the cores with a random farming carry.
This has nothing to do with hero changes or drafting i'm talking purely game sense wise team decisions they don't seem like a team just 5 ppl put together under a tag name.....they have no game plan they can't execute properly and worst of all some of their members and most of the time 1 member just decides to dive randomly or get cough out of position 90% of the time losing them all the advantage they have.......this is not patch related or heros been changed, this is just no team/game sense ..
On October 04 2014 22:47 zdfgucker wrote: I think that 20min gg push meta wasn't what Puppey is used to. Now, with longer games and back to carries being carries, Puppey can shine again. Same goes for Loda drafting for Alliance, rat is back.
Overall the scene benefited from the fall of these insane stacks (Na'Vi, LGD int) as we got more good teams now that mix up the scene a bit. Na'Vi is at its weakest this year, I'd say.
So, its not that Puppey's draft sucked back then but instead the meta didn't fitted his draft. In other words, what we were discussing all along. And now it is all Xboct fault, not because he sucks but because Puppey shines thanks to the new patch. In fact, given the current state, if thing went back, Na´Vi would shine again. All thanks to Ppy's draft and Xboct's performance with hard carries.
Lets blame Zero Gravity!!
What are you on about? :S Na'Vi would be stronger right now had they not changed their roster but that would not have changed the team atmosphere. Overall the scene got better and Na'Vi got worse. I think Xboct is a good carry but compared to someone like Black or kky his decision making is bad. That's not to say he's the sole reason for their slump, pretty much none of their players really showed much of their potential during the tournament, they all got destroyed.
What am I on about? Puppey's drafting was awful, not because of the meta but because of his inability to adapt and listen to others, now that the game is kinda his thing he is godlike again? No sir, I won't excuse a guy with that kind of attitude, not even if he wins TI5. Xboct may need to be replaced, I don't care about him at all.
On October 05 2014 00:19 drusalnik wrote:
On October 04 2014 23:42 Gevna wrote: The atmosphere was probably toxic, with 2 clans ignoring each other. I'm sure Hvost isn't the only one to be blamed for this. I'm pretty sure Kuro can be quite an arrogant guy aswell. And anyway Puppey was the captain, it was its job to get through the bullshit internal issues, not isolating himself with kuro and ignoring his teammates / Goblak.
Now about the WCA performance, I don't really understand why Hvost is, again, getting all the hate. The main issue I witnessed was that beside the laning phase, navi was just completely lost. Unable to push their advantage, to control the map, to pressure the highground. There was some individual misplays (especially from Hvost I admit that) but still, it won't have changed how awful their decision making was. And to be honest, I feel that fng's draft puts too much emphasis on picking heroes they are comfortable with, and rarely seem to be related to a general game plan.
So yeah you may blame Hvost as much as you want, they still lost a game with a 20k gold advantage. It has a lot more to do with their decision making, than individual mistakes in my opinion.
When XBOCT starts playing properly not getting cough constantly in a position where they cant trade when he dies then you can come back and say "well it isn't only XBOCT's fault". I am sorry this team feels disjointed all together dendi does hes thing so does funn1k then you have the supports and all of a sudden XBOCT decides to feed take not needed risks what so ever like he has no game sense and just zones out from hes team mates.
This team at the moment works like 2supports working around funn1k dendi + random farming carry it is bound to be disastrous.
Please, everyone remember that this team was showing really good performances no more than 20 days ago, once again we got a new patch. So stop with this nonsense. The team could need a while to get used to it. This is not the case of Ppy, whose drafting went from awful to great thanks to a few changes. If tomorrow we were to get a rollback from the patch things may go again back as well.
Please......how is the patch is of any relevance when XBOCT just dies randomly on the map it doesn't matter what number the patch has when hes playing. How is the patch in any relevance when the team just feels like 5 guys just randomly playing in a pub game where supports try to help each of the cores with a random farming carry.
This has nothing to do with hero changes or drafting i'm talking purely game sense wise team decisions they don't seem like a team just 5 ppl put together under a tag name.....they have no game plan they can't execute properly and worst of all some of their members and most of the time 1 member just decides to dive randomly or get cough out of position 90% of the time losing them all the advantage they have.......this is not patch related or heros been changed, this is just no team/game sense ..
You are not the only one saying the team is playing like crap. And I am not saying Xboct is not the problem, if you read better you will see I say he may need to be replaced. Not everything is about you, I quoted you and extended my answer. "I am sorry this team feels disjointed" this is what I don't agree with, because 20 days ago it wasn't like this, not even Xboct was this awful.
I think the only solution right now is to find a coach. I believe they are essentially locked into this roster for a matter of months and the status quo is not cutting it.
Even if they are contractually able to change the roster I can't see it happening yet, so either they try to make it work with some non-roster changes (which requires some leadership that is not, imo, coming from inside the group) or they just "hope for the best" and we will see more of this. Not all the time, but enough times when it counts.
On October 05 2014 05:43 FHDH wrote: I think the only solution right now is to find a coach. I believe they are essentially locked into this roster for a matter of months and the status quo is not cutting it.
Even if they are contractually able to change the roster I can't see it happening yet, so either they try to make it work with some non-roster changes (which requires some leadership that is not, imo, coming from inside the group) or they just "hope for the best" and we will see more of this. Not all the time, but enough times when it counts.
This is not the case of Ppy, whose drafting went from awful to great thanks to a few changes. If tomorrow we were to get a rollback from the patch things may go again back as well.
not necessarily as Secret apart from one game looked really good in the old 6.81 patch, so there you have it, it does not have to be, that puppey started to listen more, but that people around him started to work more together on making the drafts work for him
hell some TI4 drafts of his were complete outdrafts and they just lost pathetically, should tell you where the truth is
anyway, this is all in the past, the issue would've been settlet after TI3 with one move from ZeroG, although I do admit dendi said kuro made some bad ingame decisions in the 5th game, still doesn't compare to XBOX ignoring the team going bot, yes getting the 3 kills but then being shut down completely and then we all know what happened, that was again a draft that would not have lost if he did what he was told but noez
I loved him (XBOX) at TI3 don't get me wrong I also loved how he tried at TI4 (was maybe the best along with kuro) but nowdays, he completely lost it, XBOX is no more, hope he will regain his hunger but well we will see, GL to Na'vi but for some Na'vi no more
This is not the case of Ppy, whose drafting went from awful to great thanks to a few changes. If tomorrow we were to get a rollback from the patch things may go again back as well.
not necessarily as Secret apart from one game looked really good in the old 6.81 patch, so there you have it, it does not have to be, that puppey started to listen more, but that people around him started to work more together on making the drafts work for him
hell some TI4 drafts of his were complete outdrafts and they just lost pathetically, should tell you where the truth is
anyway, this is all in the past, the issue would've been settlet after TI3 with one move from ZeroG, although I do admit dendi said kuro made some bad ingame decisions in the 5th game, still doesn't compare to XBOX ignoring the team going bot, yes getting the 3 kills but then being shut down completely and then we all know what happened, that was again a draft that would not have lost if he did what he was told but noez
I loved him (XBOX) at TI3 don't get me wrong I also loved how he tried at TI4 (was maybe the best along with kuro) but nowdays, he completely lost it, XBOX is no more, hope he will regain his hunger but well we will see, GL to Na'vi but for some Na'vi no more
Pfffffft.
If Puppey after so much time drafting bad didn't get at least something useful at the end of the patch I would find it pretty depressing. Also he tried some weird moves in TI4 that didn't work at all. Why didn't they work? Because they didn't practice. You can see now how Dendi performs with DP now, not great but a lot better and the same for Xboct with Razor, not great but a lot better.
So Ppy drafting "normal" in the last month of the patch is no argument at all. He refused to communicate with the team, and the rumor says he was one of the "people" who didn't want/care about practice. Now he has a new team, they may be in high spirits, his team mates probably use different heroes than his former team mates.
I don't defend Xboct.
Lastly, with the roll back I was talking about Na´Vi, not Ppy.
Edit: Oh, one more thing, how is people around him work together on making drafts work for him? HE makes drafts work for the team, not the team for him.... If HE needs his team to help with drafts then PRACTICE. Picking never played heroes and expect fantasy to happen is crazy.
as to what happened you make puppey out to be some kind of an idiot, he might have his weirdo interviews and all but man tone it down a bit
and for Dendi not being able to play DP, laughable, he was able to play her before, ok, maybe he didn't practice her specifically after and that brought the results it brought at Ti4 but whose fault is it for not practicing a hero, puppeys ? nope the players
everybody was talking about them not playing certain heroes, the so called flavor of the patch on par to other players again whose fault is that puppey's ? nope
either way, nothing can be changed since all the stuff happened already and it's for the best it happened
and obviously for a draft to work the people around the draft have to make it work, puppey can;'t make a draft work, since he doesn't play all the picked 5 heroes................ and you don't always have the luxury to pick what you trained
On October 05 2014 08:39 Nikto wrote: as to what happened you make puppey out to be some kind of an idiot, he might have his weirdo interviews and all but man tone it down a bit
and for Dendi not being able to play DP, laughable, he was able to play her before, ok, maybe he didn't practice her specifically after and that brought the results it brought at Ti4 but whose fault is it for not practicing a hero, puppeys ? nope the players
everybody was talking about them not playing certain heroes, the so called flavor of the patch on par to other players again whose fault is that puppey's ? nope
either way, nothing can be changed since all the stuff happened already and it's for the best it happened
and obviously for a draft to work the people around the draft have to make it work, puppey can;'t make a draft work, since he doesn't play all the picked 5 heroes................ and you don't always have the luxury to pick what you trained
You don't understand the point, and you will never understand it.
Man watching the videos Navi's youtube is posting about that WCA decision to make them play game 3 just makes me sad. This tournament has been so poorly ran, you can blame the players all you want but making them play the game that day definitely played a huge role in them getting knocked out. Lost any liking I had for Xiao8 from the video as well.
I do wonder what people saw in XBOCT's TI4 performance. The team as a whole performed quite poorly and you can't expect a carry to have great production when his team is not providing him opportunity, in the same way you can't judge a carry as having a good game simply by being productive. But I can't recall more "good play" moments in TI4 than "wtf 4" plays and other than those extremes performance was adequate. Doesn't sound much different than the rest of the team.
At the end of the day your quarterback is supposed to have the most points and yards. You can't call them the best-performing player simply based on that being the case. This is often how I feel XBOCT is judged when he is judged favorably. Perhaps others see different things in his play.
The Puppey situation is one where you can interpret things basically to suit your narrative with the information we had. For every criticism you can make of Puppey you can also ask the question whether the team environment allowed it to be different, and what he or anyone else could have done. So you can shoulder him with all the burden as the captain or you can relieve him entirely of it because others were willful parties to conflict. The truth lies somewhere in-between.
Ultimately though Puppey is gone and XBOCT remains and we have two new guys and the honeymoon is over. The real question is what is next.
On October 05 2014 08:51 FHDH wrote: I do wonder what people saw in XBOCT's TI4 performance. The team as a whole performed quite poorly and you can't expect a carry to have great production when his team is not providing him opportunity, in the same way you can't judge a carry as having a good game simply by being productive. But I can't recall more "good play" moments in TI4 than "wtf 4" plays and other than those extremes performance was adequate. Doesn't sound much different than the rest of the team.
At the end of the day your quarterback is supposed to have the most points and yards. You can't call them the best-performing player simply based on that being the case. This is often how I feel XBOCT is judged when he is judged favorably. Perhaps others see different things in his play.
The Puppey situation is one where you can interpret things basically to suit your narrative with the information we had. For every criticism you can make of Puppey you can also ask the question whether the team environment allowed it to be different, and what he or anyone else could have done. So you can shoulder him with all the burden as the captain or you can relieve him entirely of it because others were willful parties to conflict. The truth lies somewhere in-between.
Ultimately though Puppey is gone and XBOCT remains and we have two new guys and the honeymoon is over. The real question is what is next.
I think the same. It is in-between. If I had to express my opinion, I find Xboct decision making as inexcusable as Ppy's drafting. Of course multiple assumptions can be made from our end, but from what Dendi said about Goblak-Ppy interaction I don't imagine Ppy asking anyone to practice specific heroes, but instead him being him, as he shows himself in every interview.
Again, before thinking about anyone else we must think about ourselves, and extending that to Ppy, I never saw him play Mirana-Bane duo and I saw them struggle and suck against that duo way before TI4, and I have only seen him pick Rhasta once, with a sad performance from Kky. Regarding the team helping him with drafts, I can say that on those games were he/they weren't outdrafted hard, his or support's movements sucked so hard that even watching any core is meaningless. Ppy/Kky lost many matches on their own just on a 2v2 against the enemy's support duo.
Yes, Dendi was not Dendi. Funn1k didn't perform with Doom and NP as he does now. Xboct being Xboct but worse.
My point is, past and present are no excuse for a specific point in time. So old Xboct is no excuse for current Xboct and current Ppy is no excuse for old Ppy. Excusing them with those arguments is something I do not do neither accept.
I think the same. It is in-between. If I had to express my opinion, I find Xboct decision making as inexcusable as Ppy's drafting. Of course multiple assumptions can be made from our end, but from what Dendi said about Goblak-Ppy interaction I don't imagine Ppy asking anyone to practice specific heroes, but instead him being him, as he shows himself in every interview.
Again, before thinking about anyone else we must think about ourselves, and extending that to Ppy, I never saw him play Mirana-Bane duo and I saw them struggle and suck against that duo way before TI4, and I have only seen him pick Rhasta once, with a sad performance from Kky. Regarding the team helping him with drafts, I can say that on those games were he/they weren't outdrafted hard, his or support's movements sucked so hard that even watching any core is meaningless. Ppy/Kky lost many matches on their own just on a 2v2 against the enemy's support duo.
Yes, Dendi was not Dendi. Funn1k didn't perform with Doom and NP as he does now. Xboct being Xboct but worse.
My point is, past and present are no excuse for a specific point in time. So old Xboct is no excuse for current Xboct and current Ppy is no excuse for old Ppy. Excusing them with those arguments is something I do not do neither accept.
Now you're just talking out of your ass.
1: Navi did bootcamp. Maybe they should have went china again, o wait no XBOCT complains about china too much. 2: Before TI thier record wasn't even that bad, if you don't believe me just go to the Na'Vi record and remove all Navi vs EG games. 3. Navi were one of the first to start picking skywraith mage who later on became top tier. It isn't like they ran out of ideas. Saying his drafts are bad is your opinion, at Ti4 chuan said he admires puppey's ability to keep up with the meta and drafting skills so I don't really think the drafts are as bad as people making it out to be. 4. Na'Vi still reached top 8, same rank as iG the ESL ONE winners. 5. There have been interviews before TI4 with dendi that clearly show puppey talks to him about what to practice. For example he once complained that puppey and him agreed qop was strong and dendi should practice it but puppey went on to never pick it. Pudge countering gyro was also Puppey's and Dendi's idea. 6.After they lost Ti3 Funn1k was happy and Dendi cheered up kuroky. The only guy who went on twitter calling other people idiots for throwing away his hard earnt victory was XBOCT. Ironic since he was suppose to go top because Puppey predicted the lanes correctly.
Most of thier problems happened after TI3 when there was a schism and that can't be blamed on just one person.
I think the same. It is in-between. If I had to express my opinion, I find Xboct decision making as inexcusable as Ppy's drafting. Of course multiple assumptions can be made from our end, but from what Dendi said about Goblak-Ppy interaction I don't imagine Ppy asking anyone to practice specific heroes, but instead him being him, as he shows himself in every interview.
Again, before thinking about anyone else we must think about ourselves, and extending that to Ppy, I never saw him play Mirana-Bane duo and I saw them struggle and suck against that duo way before TI4, and I have only seen him pick Rhasta once, with a sad performance from Kky. Regarding the team helping him with drafts, I can say that on those games were he/they weren't outdrafted hard, his or support's movements sucked so hard that even watching any core is meaningless. Ppy/Kky lost many matches on their own just on a 2v2 against the enemy's support duo.
Yes, Dendi was not Dendi. Funn1k didn't perform with Doom and NP as he does now. Xboct being Xboct but worse.
My point is, past and present are no excuse for a specific point in time. So old Xboct is no excuse for current Xboct and current Ppy is no excuse for old Ppy. Excusing them with those arguments is something I do not do neither accept.
Now you're just talking out of your ass.
1: Navi did bootcamp. Maybe they should have went china again, o wait no XBOCT complains about china too much. 2: Before TI thier record wasn't even that bad, if you don't believe me just go to the Na'Vi record and remove all Navi vs EG games. 3. Navi were one of the first to start picking skywraith mage who later on became top tier. It isn't like they ran out of ideas. Saying his drafts are bad is your opinion, at Ti4 chuan said he admires puppey's ability to keep up with the meta and drafting skills so I don't really think the drafts are as bad as people making it out to be. 4. Na'Vi still reached top 8, same rank as iG the ESL ONE winners. 5. There have been interviews before TI4 with dendi that clearly show puppey talks to him about what to practice. For example he once complained that puppey and him agreed qop was strong and dendi should practice it but puppey went on to never pick it. Pudge countering gyro was also Puppey's and Dendi's idea. 6.After they lost Ti3 Funn1k was happy and Dendi cheered up kuroky. The only guy who went on twitter calling other people idiots for throwing away his hard earnt victory was XBOCT. Ironic since he was suppose to go top because Puppey predicted the lanes correctly.
Most of thier problems happened after TI3 when there was a schism and that can't be blamed on just one person.
You are wrong, I am talking about the last three or four months before the split. They didn't play crap, I never said that. 1. NaVi did one bootcamp before TI4. 2. I never said their record was that bad. I said Ppy's draft was never on par with his draft back to before TI3. 3. I don't care what ChuaN says, and of course is my opinion, I didn't say he wasn't able to keep up, I said he didn't adapt. If you think he was able to keep up with the meta at the time before and during TI4 well, your opinion may be as off the mark as mine. How come the majority of the community says he was outdrafted? Isn't that drafting bad? He can have bad years too, deal with it man. 4. I never said top 8 is a bad spot. Given their performance I am happy they were able to reach it. 5. Practice QoP? Are you saying that his QoP was on par with his DP or something like that? I am talking about never played heroes. And by practice I mean team practice, the practice they used to do before TI3. You could even see them playing pubs together on stream. 6. I don't care.
I DON'T DEFEND XBOCT! How many times do I have to say it? If you are in love with Ppy is your problem not mine. And if you want to extend time for your arguments and take into account more than six months before the split then you are doing specifically what I said not to do. Because excusing them with their best image is wrong. As it is excusing them with their current performance.
I think the same. It is in-between. If I had to express my opinion, I find Xboct decision making as inexcusable as Ppy's drafting. Of course multiple assumptions can be made from our end, but from what Dendi said about Goblak-Ppy interaction I don't imagine Ppy asking anyone to practice specific heroes, but instead him being him, as he shows himself in every interview.
Again, before thinking about anyone else we must think about ourselves, and extending that to Ppy, I never saw him play Mirana-Bane duo and I saw them struggle and suck against that duo way before TI4, and I have only seen him pick Rhasta once, with a sad performance from Kky. Regarding the team helping him with drafts, I can say that on those games were he/they weren't outdrafted hard, his or support's movements sucked so hard that even watching any core is meaningless. Ppy/Kky lost many matches on their own just on a 2v2 against the enemy's support duo.
Yes, Dendi was not Dendi. Funn1k didn't perform with Doom and NP as he does now. Xboct being Xboct but worse.
My point is, past and present are no excuse for a specific point in time. So old Xboct is no excuse for current Xboct and current Ppy is no excuse for old Ppy. Excusing them with those arguments is something I do not do neither accept.
Now you're just talking out of your ass.
1: Navi did bootcamp. Maybe they should have went china again, o wait no XBOCT complains about china too much. 2: Before TI thier record wasn't even that bad, if you don't believe me just go to the Na'Vi record and remove all Navi vs EG games. 3. Navi were one of the first to start picking skywraith mage who later on became top tier. It isn't like they ran out of ideas. Saying his drafts are bad is your opinion, at Ti4 chuan said he admires puppey's ability to keep up with the meta and drafting skills so I don't really think the drafts are as bad as people making it out to be. 4. Na'Vi still reached top 8, same rank as iG the ESL ONE winners. 5. There have been interviews before TI4 with dendi that clearly show puppey talks to him about what to practice. For example he once complained that puppey and him agreed qop was strong and dendi should practice it but puppey went on to never pick it. Pudge countering gyro was also Puppey's and Dendi's idea. 6.After they lost Ti3 Funn1k was happy and Dendi cheered up kuroky. The only guy who went on twitter calling other people idiots for throwing away his hard earnt victory was XBOCT. Ironic since he was suppose to go top because Puppey predicted the lanes correctly.
Most of thier problems happened after TI3 when there was a schism and that can't be blamed on just one person.
You are wrong, I am talking about the last three or four months before the split. They didn't play crap, I never said that. 1. NaVi did one bootcamp before TI4. 2. I never said their record was that bad. I said Ppy's draft was never on par with his draft back to before TI3. 3. I don't care what ChuaN says, and of course is my opinion, I didn't say he wasn't able to keep up, I said he didn't adapt. If you think he was able to keep up with the meta at the time before and during TI4 well, your opinion may be as off the mark as mine. How come the majority of the community says he was outdrafted? Isn't that drafting bad? He can have bad years too, deal with it man. 4. I never said top 8 is a bad spot. Given their performance I am happy they were able to reach it. 5. Practice QoP? Are you saying that his QoP was on par with his DP or something like that? I am talking about never played heroes. And by practice I mean team practice, the practice they used to do before TI3. You could even see them playing pubs together on stream. 6. I don't care.
I DON'T DEFEND XBOCT! How many times do I have to say it? If you are in love with Ppy is your problem not mine. And if you want to extend time for your arguments and take into account more than six months before the split then you are doing specifically what I said not to do. Because excusing them with their best image is wrong. As it is excusing them with their current performance.
1. So yes they did prepare? Or maybe they did nothing during the bootcamp cause of the crappy environment caused by more than 1 player? 2+3. Didn't adapt????? Navi was one of the first teams to use skywraith mage. Who is now one of the most heavily picked support? Thats right skywraith mage. They had shitty play with decent picks. 3. Majority of the community is shit at this game. Only 1% is above 4.1k mmr, Have u even seen the difference between top pub stars and pros? Fact is pro >>> everyone except for a few pubstars, thats why I put more weight in Chuan's opinion rather than some random noob. I can't believe you're going with the community over Chuan. 4. I was simply listing achievements to show that they're weren't really doing that bad relative to the west, everyone except EG got stomped by the chinese. 5. Yea the point of this bullet point was to show they actually discussed picks with each other. Saying ppy ignores his team mates just means you never really followed the team, I've watched almost every Na'Vi interview since 6 months after TI2 and they use to talk about picks with each other. And how the hell do you even know what they play in scrims. You're just speculating. 6. The point is that it is not just one person to blame. No matter how bad it got did you see Kuro and Ppy go on twitter/facebook calling his team mate retards and threatening to kick them? But sure lets all just blame one person, it is never XBOCT's fault.
I was a Na'Vi fan thats why I don't like people retarded stuff, none of us knows what really happened thats why I called you out on your speculating. Fact is the pros are more in the know than we will ever be, if ppy was such a huge asshole do you think he could even get another team?
I think the same. It is in-between. If I had to express my opinion, I find Xboct decision making as inexcusable as Ppy's drafting. Of course multiple assumptions can be made from our end, but from what Dendi said about Goblak-Ppy interaction I don't imagine Ppy asking anyone to practice specific heroes, but instead him being him, as he shows himself in every interview.
Again, before thinking about anyone else we must think about ourselves, and extending that to Ppy, I never saw him play Mirana-Bane duo and I saw them struggle and suck against that duo way before TI4, and I have only seen him pick Rhasta once, with a sad performance from Kky. Regarding the team helping him with drafts, I can say that on those games were he/they weren't outdrafted hard, his or support's movements sucked so hard that even watching any core is meaningless. Ppy/Kky lost many matches on their own just on a 2v2 against the enemy's support duo.
Yes, Dendi was not Dendi. Funn1k didn't perform with Doom and NP as he does now. Xboct being Xboct but worse.
My point is, past and present are no excuse for a specific point in time. So old Xboct is no excuse for current Xboct and current Ppy is no excuse for old Ppy. Excusing them with those arguments is something I do not do neither accept.
Now you're just talking out of your ass.
1: Navi did bootcamp. Maybe they should have went china again, o wait no XBOCT complains about china too much. 2: Before TI thier record wasn't even that bad, if you don't believe me just go to the Na'Vi record and remove all Navi vs EG games. 3. Navi were one of the first to start picking skywraith mage who later on became top tier. It isn't like they ran out of ideas. Saying his drafts are bad is your opinion, at Ti4 chuan said he admires puppey's ability to keep up with the meta and drafting skills so I don't really think the drafts are as bad as people making it out to be. 4. Na'Vi still reached top 8, same rank as iG the ESL ONE winners. 5. There have been interviews before TI4 with dendi that clearly show puppey talks to him about what to practice. For example he once complained that puppey and him agreed qop was strong and dendi should practice it but puppey went on to never pick it. Pudge countering gyro was also Puppey's and Dendi's idea. 6.After they lost Ti3 Funn1k was happy and Dendi cheered up kuroky. The only guy who went on twitter calling other people idiots for throwing away his hard earnt victory was XBOCT. Ironic since he was suppose to go top because Puppey predicted the lanes correctly.
Most of thier problems happened after TI3 when there was a schism and that can't be blamed on just one person.
You are wrong, I am talking about the last three or four months before the split. They didn't play crap, I never said that. 1. NaVi did one bootcamp before TI4. 2. I never said their record was that bad. I said Ppy's draft was never on par with his draft back to before TI3. 3. I don't care what ChuaN says, and of course is my opinion, I didn't say he wasn't able to keep up, I said he didn't adapt. If you think he was able to keep up with the meta at the time before and during TI4 well, your opinion may be as off the mark as mine. How come the majority of the community says he was outdrafted? Isn't that drafting bad? He can have bad years too, deal with it man. 4. I never said top 8 is a bad spot. Given their performance I am happy they were able to reach it. 5. Practice QoP? Are you saying that his QoP was on par with his DP or something like that? I am talking about never played heroes. And by practice I mean team practice, the practice they used to do before TI3. You could even see them playing pubs together on stream. 6. I don't care.
I DON'T DEFEND XBOCT! How many times do I have to say it? If you are in love with Ppy is your problem not mine. And if you want to extend time for your arguments and take into account more than six months before the split then you are doing specifically what I said not to do. Because excusing them with their best image is wrong. As it is excusing them with their current performance.
1. So yes they did prepare? Or maybe they did nothing during the bootcamp cause of the crappy environment caused by more than 1 player? 2+3. Didn't adapt????? Navi was one of the first teams to use skywraith mage. Who is now one of the most heavily picked support? Thats right skywraith mage. They had shitty play with decent picks. 3. Majority of the community is shit at this game. Only 1% is above 4.1k mmr, Have u even seen the difference between top pub stars and pros? Fact is pro >>> everyone except for a few pubstars, thats why I put more weight in Chuan's opinion rather than some random noob. I can't believe you're going with the community over Chuan. 4. I was simply listing achievements to show that they're weren't really doing that bad relative to the west, everyone except EG got stomped by the chinese. 5. Yea the point of this bullet point was to show they actually discussed picks with each other. Saying ppy ignores his team mates just means you never really followed the team, I've watched almost every Na'Vi interview since 6 months after TI2 and they use to talk about picks with each other. And how the hell do you even know what they play in scrims. You're just speculating. 6. The point is that it is not just one person to blame. No matter how bad it got did you see Kuro and Ppy go on twitter/facebook calling his team mate retards and threatening to kick them? But sure lets all just blame one person, it is never XBOCT's fault.
I was a Na'Vi fan thats why I don't like people retarded stuff, none of us knows what really happened thats why I called you out on your speculating. Fact is the pros are more in the know than we will ever be, if ppy was such a huge asshole do you think he could even get another team?
Sure man, sure. You are not only misinterpreting everything I say but also bringing stuff that has nothing to do with the topic in discussion.
I never blamed everything on Ppy. If Skymage saves his whole drafting two months prior TI4 adn during Ti4 then one or two performaces of Xboct should be enough to take all the blame off him too.
Please reread everything I posted and think deeply about what I said before pointing things out that are wrong. Because you got me all wrong.
EPT
