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On March 27 2018 03:42 Racket wrote:
I can't talk about the Chinese scene, I have no idea. Lets be a bit more specific, GH fits the profile perfectly but Yapzor and MindControl don't. Why? MindControl like Matumba formed the team and didn't join a pre-established team, so the whole investment thing does not fit. Yapzor was already proving he was worth hiring so no fit there, we could argue, yes he is more like a maybe, but I don't think Secret did a risky move there.
Now, to be kind of more organized, we are discussing NaVi's current state and possible fixes:
- Investing in barely known players
-> Hired Sonneiko, General, Ax.mo, Ditya Ra, Cristallize, Lebron
Done!
- They are missing a capable captain
-> No captain found yet
--> Dendi should be kicked to attract captains that wouldn't join him.
---> Interestingly enough, no one can mention a single available and promising captain fitting the description.
To be done!
I am not against kicking Dendi but I don't think that should be the first move as he has shown he can play very well under proper leadership.
Which CIS captain is worth hiring while kicking Dendi? Not Fng, not Cema, not Afterlife.. and we can stop already because I can't think of any other remarkable CIS captain.
If we were to open this discussion to european/american players, I don't think NaVi will go that path again.
Yeah that pretty much sums up their options, at least from what we on the outside can observe. Like I said, its a stupid situation. When it comes to Dendi, I think I made my position very clear: I'm also against kicking him from the get go, but if they do find a captain and that captain thinks Dendi should go, then Dendi should go. That's my stance on the Dendi question.
As for where should they find a captain in CIS. Well, to be honest NaVi strikes me as a team that doesnt allow their captains to grow, Im not sure if that's because their brand carries weight and they are held to a different standard than the rest which puts burden on everyone or perhaps its an organizational/managerial issue. Or maybe Im just imagining things dunno, but that's how it seems to me.
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Guys, this talk of kicking Dendi is crazy. Let's be very clear - Navi will NEVER kick him. No matter what. He's the face of everything that is Navi and he, alone, generates more fan base and income to their organization than the rest combined X 100.
In regard to his ability, he's still extremely competitive and is not the reason we are losing games right now. Leadership is 100% the void. And I think they will give the drafting and shot calling duties over to Lil at least through epicenter. Will it work, i dunno. But the mixed shot calling in game is not working, as we get outplayed in the mid game quite badly.
However, save for Lebron, the current roster is talented enough to get results. And I don't see the roster changing anytime soon. Dendi and general are basically best friends and crystallize and xboct have become very close. Those 3 are going nowhere. We'll just have to watch how starladder goes here in two weeks and hopefully some adjustments will be made for the better.
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On March 27 2018 09:53 FreakyDroid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 03:42 Racket wrote:
I can't talk about the Chinese scene, I have no idea. Lets be a bit more specific, GH fits the profile perfectly but Yapzor and MindControl don't. Why? MindControl like Matumba formed the team and didn't join a pre-established team, so the whole investment thing does not fit. Yapzor was already proving he was worth hiring so no fit there, we could argue, yes he is more like a maybe, but I don't think Secret did a risky move there.
Now, to be kind of more organized, we are discussing NaVi's current state and possible fixes:
- Investing in barely known players
-> Hired Sonneiko, General, Ax.mo, Ditya Ra, Cristallize, Lebron
Done!
- They are missing a capable captain
-> No captain found yet
--> Dendi should be kicked to attract captains that wouldn't join him.
---> Interestingly enough, no one can mention a single available and promising captain fitting the description.
To be done!
I am not against kicking Dendi but I don't think that should be the first move as he has shown he can play very well under proper leadership.
Which CIS captain is worth hiring while kicking Dendi? Not Fng, not Cema, not Afterlife.. and we can stop already because I can't think of any other remarkable CIS captain.
If we were to open this discussion to european/american players, I don't think NaVi will go that path again.
Yeah that pretty much sums up their options, at least from what we on the outside can observe. Like I said, its a stupid situation. When it comes to Dendi, I think I made my position very clear: I'm also against kicking him from the get go, but if they do find a captain and that captain thinks Dendi should go, then Dendi should go. That's my stance on the Dendi question. As for where should they find a captain in CIS. Well, to be honest NaVi strikes me as a team that doesnt allow their captains to grow, Im not sure if that's because their brand carries weight and they are held to a different standard than the rest which puts burden on everyone or perhaps its an organizational/managerial issue. Or maybe Im just imagining things dunno, but that's how it seems to me.
Sadly, I guess that is the way it goes in NaVi. They are forced to show short term results or they must leave. Many big brands are like that.
On March 27 2018 04:50 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 03:42 Racket wrote:On March 27 2018 02:53 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 26 2018 21:20 Faruko wrote:On March 26 2018 05:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 26 2018 04:21 Racket wrote:On March 26 2018 03:43 FreakyDroid wrote:On March 24 2018 18:09 Racket wrote:On March 24 2018 17:40 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 24 2018 13:44 DucK- wrote:
Why are people asking dendi to leave when clearly its the supports/leadership that is the problem. The 3 cores are OK the moment navi fixes the issue. Of course if dendi/general are in the way of a good captain joining or he insists to lead then OK they should go. Otherwise stop making dendi the scapegoat of navi issues. I think it's a fair question to ask what Dendi is bringing to the table, considering he's been the sole constant in the last 4 years. Even if he's not the problem, he hasn't been the solution either. Duck- has a point. Before the swap NaVi was doing good and getting better. All that wasn't just Rodjer, the team was playing better. They lost their po4 and their captain and now the cores are bad? The problem with Dendi is that no good player or captain wants to join the team because of him. Russian casters and esports figures have been talking about this for a long time. Even NaVi's CEO commented on it: "There is really no trust in Dendi, not only from fans but from players as well. We don’t know what to do in this situation right now.” Duck- has every right to defend Dendi, I understand that, but consider this: NaVi models all their teams around him, he is basically their center piece, so why is he surprised that many are saying that, maybe just maybe, Dendi is the problem? For the record, I dont see him as the sole problem, but I do think he is part of the problem. Its a normal reaction by fans of the team rather than one of their players. Yes Dendi was a beast one time, he got praised for his skill, heck he was even deified by many people. If people accept praise when they are good then by the same principle they should accept being criticized when their skill falls off. No one should be above scrutiny, not even Dendi. Even if all this makes sense, think about this: The moment NaVi loses Dendi, NaVi becomes just another CIS stack. NaVi cannot buy VP, thus they won't let Dendi go. The only way NaVi will let Dendi go, is if they believe they can achieve something without him. Now can you tell how high are the chances of forming a competitive CIS team without Dendi? What other mid is free and better than Dendi? Reso is no midplayer no more. Lets be real, even tho Dendi is not top tier and won't carry you alone to success, there is no other CIS mid available, not G, not fn, not iLTW, that can fit a team and do better, if there were, he would be sucessful already. Meanwhile almost every other top tier team has been investing in unknown players who end up being the stars of the team. because General and Crystallize are know powerhouses which joined NaVi for millions of dollars right? That post is wrong on so many levels is mind blowing Is not like NaVi have not invested in unknown players, is that they need that certain piece of the puzzle (a proper captain) to put the team at a good position again edit: also Sonneiko was unknown. Yes, so the argument that Dendi has no replacement falls a little flat. Or even that he's staying mid because he's the best option. You can try a little harder. At least name players so we can talk about. I mean, I don't know what the CIS ranked ladder looks like? Hell, Crystallize would probably be a better mid player. And frankly, considering that Na'vi keeps losing talented players and/or captains like ArtStyle, Sonneiko and Rodjer, the options were and are clearly there, they just aren't staying around.
This isn't going anywhere, you just want to get rid of Dendi. Instead of naming a competent captain or a real replacement for Dendi you come up with "Crystallize would be a better mid player"...
If you think kicking Dendi will magically make NaVi better, you are wrong. If you think people left NaVi because of him, we will never know. So far ArtStyle retired to be a coach, Rodjer always wanted to join VP and NaVi knew when they hired him, Dytia Ra, Ax.mo and Sonneiko were kicked.
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On March 16 2018 18:30 Racket wrote:
WTF was that last Chrono? OH MY...
Answering to myself with an excerpt from Crystallize last interview:
— What happened at minute 52, when you cast a Chrono into the rosh pit?
— I had a brain lag there. I thought Morphling went in to finish off Roshan because I saw him get in there before. If I had locked him down, we would've won the game. If we had killed him, we would've got Roshan and there'd be no buyback on Morphling. Otherwise, that would be the end.
It looked like brain lag.
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On March 27 2018 16:01 Racket wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 04:50 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 27 2018 03:42 Racket wrote:On March 27 2018 02:53 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 26 2018 21:20 Faruko wrote:On March 26 2018 05:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 26 2018 04:21 Racket wrote:On March 26 2018 03:43 FreakyDroid wrote:On March 24 2018 18:09 Racket wrote:On March 24 2018 17:40 WolfintheSheep wrote:
[quote]
I think it's a fair question to ask what Dendi is bringing to the table, considering he's been the sole constant in the last 4 years. Even if he's not the problem, he hasn't been the solution either. Duck- has a point. Before the swap NaVi was doing good and getting better. All that wasn't just Rodjer, the team was playing better. They lost their po4 and their captain and now the cores are bad? The problem with Dendi is that no good player or captain wants to join the team because of him. Russian casters and esports figures have been talking about this for a long time. Even NaVi's CEO commented on it: "There is really no trust in Dendi, not only from fans but from players as well. We don’t know what to do in this situation right now.” Duck- has every right to defend Dendi, I understand that, but consider this: NaVi models all their teams around him, he is basically their center piece, so why is he surprised that many are saying that, maybe just maybe, Dendi is the problem? For the record, I dont see him as the sole problem, but I do think he is part of the problem. Its a normal reaction by fans of the team rather than one of their players. Yes Dendi was a beast one time, he got praised for his skill, heck he was even deified by many people. If people accept praise when they are good then by the same principle they should accept being criticized when their skill falls off. No one should be above scrutiny, not even Dendi. Even if all this makes sense, think about this: The moment NaVi loses Dendi, NaVi becomes just another CIS stack. NaVi cannot buy VP, thus they won't let Dendi go. The only way NaVi will let Dendi go, is if they believe they can achieve something without him. Now can you tell how high are the chances of forming a competitive CIS team without Dendi? What other mid is free and better than Dendi? Reso is no midplayer no more. Lets be real, even tho Dendi is not top tier and won't carry you alone to success, there is no other CIS mid available, not G, not fn, not iLTW, that can fit a team and do better, if there were, he would be sucessful already. Meanwhile almost every other top tier team has been investing in unknown players who end up being the stars of the team. because General and Crystallize are know powerhouses which joined NaVi for millions of dollars right? That post is wrong on so many levels is mind blowing Is not like NaVi have not invested in unknown players, is that they need that certain piece of the puzzle (a proper captain) to put the team at a good position again edit: also Sonneiko was unknown. Yes, so the argument that Dendi has no replacement falls a little flat. Or even that he's staying mid because he's the best option. You can try a little harder. At least name players so we can talk about. I mean, I don't know what the CIS ranked ladder looks like? Hell, Crystallize would probably be a better mid player. And frankly, considering that Na'vi keeps losing talented players and/or captains like ArtStyle, Sonneiko and Rodjer, the options were and are clearly there, they just aren't staying around. This isn't going anywhere, you just want to get rid of Dendi. Instead of naming a competent captain or a real replacement for Dendi you come up with "Crystallize would be a better mid player"... If you think kicking Dendi will magically make NaVi better, you are wrong. If you think people left NaVi because of him, we will never know. So far ArtStyle retired to be a coach, Rodjer always wanted to join VP and NaVi knew when they hired him, Dytia Ra, Ax.mo and Sonneiko were kicked.
If a team like Navi can't find a captain to build a team around in 4 years, maybe its time to try a different method? Because the "they just need a captain" approach is a lot closer to wishing on magic thus far. But, I guess if a better mid doesn't exist and a captain doesn't exist then Navi is just doomed to mediocrity now.
I don't think kicking Dendi will give instant results. I think Navi screwed the pooch several times over by letting the wrong players go in the past, and will probably do the same again.
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On March 27 2018 18:03 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 16:01 Racket wrote:On March 27 2018 04:50 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 27 2018 03:42 Racket wrote:On March 27 2018 02:53 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 26 2018 21:20 Faruko wrote:On March 26 2018 05:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 26 2018 04:21 Racket wrote:On March 26 2018 03:43 FreakyDroid wrote:On March 24 2018 18:09 Racket wrote:
[quote]
Duck- has a point. Before the swap NaVi was doing good and getting better. All that wasn't just Rodjer, the team was playing better. They lost their po4 and their captain and now the cores are bad? The problem with Dendi is that no good player or captain wants to join the team because of him. Russian casters and esports figures have been talking about this for a long time. Even NaVi's CEO commented on it: "There is really no trust in Dendi, not only from fans but from players as well. We don’t know what to do in this situation right now.” Duck- has every right to defend Dendi, I understand that, but consider this: NaVi models all their teams around him, he is basically their center piece, so why is he surprised that many are saying that, maybe just maybe, Dendi is the problem? For the record, I dont see him as the sole problem, but I do think he is part of the problem. Its a normal reaction by fans of the team rather than one of their players. Yes Dendi was a beast one time, he got praised for his skill, heck he was even deified by many people. If people accept praise when they are good then by the same principle they should accept being criticized when their skill falls off. No one should be above scrutiny, not even Dendi. Even if all this makes sense, think about this: The moment NaVi loses Dendi, NaVi becomes just another CIS stack. NaVi cannot buy VP, thus they won't let Dendi go. The only way NaVi will let Dendi go, is if they believe they can achieve something without him. Now can you tell how high are the chances of forming a competitive CIS team without Dendi? What other mid is free and better than Dendi? Reso is no midplayer no more. Lets be real, even tho Dendi is not top tier and won't carry you alone to success, there is no other CIS mid available, not G, not fn, not iLTW, that can fit a team and do better, if there were, he would be sucessful already. Meanwhile almost every other top tier team has been investing in unknown players who end up being the stars of the team. because General and Crystallize are know powerhouses which joined NaVi for millions of dollars right? That post is wrong on so many levels is mind blowing Is not like NaVi have not invested in unknown players, is that they need that certain piece of the puzzle (a proper captain) to put the team at a good position again edit: also Sonneiko was unknown. Yes, so the argument that Dendi has no replacement falls a little flat. Or even that he's staying mid because he's the best option. You can try a little harder. At least name players so we can talk about. I mean, I don't know what the CIS ranked ladder looks like? Hell, Crystallize would probably be a better mid player. And frankly, considering that Na'vi keeps losing talented players and/or captains like ArtStyle, Sonneiko and Rodjer, the options were and are clearly there, they just aren't staying around. This isn't going anywhere, you just want to get rid of Dendi. Instead of naming a competent captain or a real replacement for Dendi you come up with "Crystallize would be a better mid player"... If you think kicking Dendi will magically make NaVi better, you are wrong. If you think people left NaVi because of him, we will never know. So far ArtStyle retired to be a coach, Rodjer always wanted to join VP and NaVi knew when they hired him, Dytia Ra, Ax.mo and Sonneiko were kicked. If a team like Navi can't find a captain to build a team around in 4 years, maybe its time to try a different method? Because the "they just need a captain" approach is a lot closer to wishing on magic thus far. But, I guess if a better mid doesn't exist and a captain doesn't exist then Navi is just doomed to mediocrity now. I don't think kicking Dendi will give instant results. I think Navi screwed the pooch several times over by letting the wrong players go in the past, and will probably do the same again.
Lets just think for a bit here, I believe most of the people in this thread want the same, NaVi to be sucessful again. We all are for a change that will bring that. In four years they have sucked pretty bad and shown some glimmer of hope here and there.
They have had lately only one captain worth mentioning ArtStyle and he retired. Even fng isn't good enough, otherwise he would be relevant and lets be honest.. an old captain known for winning $322 by throwing has overthrown him as the best CIS captain over these few years. With this I am not flaming Solo, he is great, in Vega he was already showing he has it and with VP he cemented what appeared to be a captain with room to grow. This means that the only captain after Solo who comes to mind isn't even worth mentioning. He had many chances to show how good he can be and failed repeteadly. He can't keep a team together, his former teammates don't even speak good of him.
Now back to NaVi, if we can't even name someone who could take the wheel, why would you kick Dendi? If Solo said he would join NaVi only if Dendi were to leave, then and only then would it make sense to kick him. Kicking him over the idea of finding some unknown unproven captain that would bring NaVi back to the top is crazy. And in Dendis defense, he was never so bad that we could say he is mechanically holding his team back, which brings us back to lack of leadership.
Open up to Europe/America? Could work but I don't think NaVi would dare hire lets say Kyle after he was kicked for being toxic given they let go of Sonneiko for the same reason. Other non CIS captains worth mentioning? I don't know and I don't believe Europe/America would be as against Dendi as CIS may be.
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I mean, we basically already know what hasn't worked. Dendi in mid has been the one constant and all the teams have been mediocre. We don't know what Navi would look like today had the teams been built around any of the other good players that left.
Who knows, maybe VP did drain all the talent from the CIS region. But there's a lot of players in other regions that just needed an opportunity first, and plenty of top teams wouldn't exist if they were just outright dismissed from the start. Current VP included (which is like half of the past "unknown" Vega lineup).
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On March 27 2018 18:54 WolfintheSheep wrote:
I mean, we basically already know what hasn't worked. Dendi in mid has been the one constant and all the teams have been mediocre. We don't know what Navi would look like today had the teams been built around any of the other good players that left.
Who knows, maybe VP did drain all the talent from the CIS region. But there's a lot of players in other regions that just needed an opportunity first, and plenty of top teams wouldn't exist if they were just outright dismissed from the start. Current VP included (which is like half of the past "unknown" Vega lineup).
Maybe someday the NaVi will listen to the saying "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.", we will see.
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In an interview last week Dendi said he would be willing to switch roles if that's what the team needed to be successful. If it weren't for the whole DPC system and Navi automatically being forced to abandon points and go through open qualies for TI, Then I could see Dendi moving to 4, Lil to 5, and picking up some mid (reso or not). I think this step WILL be taken if we show no results between now and epicenter.
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On March 27 2018 21:38 Conjurusrex2002 wrote:
In an interview last week Dendi said he would be willing to switch roles if that's what the team needed to be successful. If it weren't for the whole DPC system and Navi automatically being forced to abandon points and go through open qualies for TI, Then I could see Dendi moving to 4, Lil to 5, and picking up some mid (reso or not). I think this step WILL be taken if we show no results between now and epicenter.
I also believe Dendi would rather go to pos4/5 than leaving.
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Looked much better today boys. Still some miscommunication on a few combos, but all in all games 2 and 3 looked like improvement. Dendi Magnus looked good. I'd put Vega as the current strongest team out of Empire, Spirit, and them. We SHOULD take these qualifiers handedly......although I feel that should be automatic given our name. On to winner finals tomorrow.
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Sigh. Total embarrassment in games 2 and 3.
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They don't look convincing, not good at all. Losing a game with 30k+ lead not being able to go high ground with sniper is embarassing.
Also, they caught Illidan like 3-4 times and they were always one sec short of killing him, General instead of locking him to actually kill him went instead always for the back line and died for free. Once or twice is fine but not every fcking time. It is, I repeat myself, embarassing.
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Had to leave leave when they had about a 30k lead ... how did they fuck this up?
General/Dendi chain feed? Crystalize to aggressive?
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By being bad at Dota and having no clue what to do lategame.
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Played scared and didn't take remaining objectives with Sniper. Poor decision making and a couple spread out fights led to Spirit coming back into game. Then General essentially feeding/die-backs for final 20 minutes. Very discouraging. Skill wise, we are so much better but it gets totally erased because of such poor decisions and scattered calls in game. I even said at 45 minute mark that Spirit won't win these team fights all game because disruptor's net worth at that point was 2.5k....."impossible he gets an aghs this game." Sure enough we go 100 minutes and the 1% probability comes to light. GG.
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Ok so TS had a Ags/Force on Discuptor, Scadi/Nuli on PL, Gurdians/Pipe/Shiva/Radiance on Underlord, Ags/Force/Hex/AC on Chen, Shiva/Hex/Refresher on DP
And Navi tried to counter with Ags on Lil, Hurciane on Sniper/PotM, Glimmer/Force/Vlads on AA and Force on Sandking, who bought a shotgun and a Laser. Plus Dendi put his MKB against a butterfly/Radiance in his backpack for a crystalys?
Yeah i get what happend...
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On April 01 2018 01:56 its_a_me wrote:
Ok so TS had a Ags/Force on Discuptor, Scadi/Nuli on PL, Gurdians/Pipe/Shiva/Radiance on Underlord, Ags/Force/Hex/AC on Chen, Shiva/Hex/Refresher on DP
And Navi tried to counter with Ags on Lil, Hurciane on Sniper/PotM, Glimmer/Force/Vlads on AA and Force on Sandking, who bought a shotgun and a Laser. Plus Dendi put his MKB against a butterfly/Radiance in his backpack for a crystalys?
Yeah i get what happend...
Kind of real real real bad decision making. General went twice if not thrice for a Disruptor who already used ulti, a Chen who would only Hand of God (not being even able to kill him if it were to make any difference) and an Underlord (good luck killing that alone as SK).... In the meantime Dendi was trying to get away from PL and DP.
It was so so so bad. TS couldn't initiate at all but General kept going after the backline instead of helping against PL and DP.
What triggered me is how they tried the same shit 4 times and lost a won game.
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Ya, game 3 legit put me in a bad mood for like an hour lol. I can imagine it's probably X10 for them as players. Hopefully they can start tomorrow's match with a clean mindset and play accordingly.
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Navi lost the rematch against Vega and are out of the GESC minor qualifier.
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EPT
