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On March 26 2018 03:43 FreakyDroid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2018 18:09 Racket wrote:On March 24 2018 17:40 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 24 2018 13:44 DucK- wrote:
Why are people asking dendi to leave when clearly its the supports/leadership that is the problem. The 3 cores are OK the moment navi fixes the issue. Of course if dendi/general are in the way of a good captain joining or he insists to lead then OK they should go. Otherwise stop making dendi the scapegoat of navi issues. I think it's a fair question to ask what Dendi is bringing to the table, considering he's been the sole constant in the last 4 years. Even if he's not the problem, he hasn't been the solution either. Duck- has a point. Before the swap NaVi was doing good and getting better. All that wasn't just Rodjer, the team was playing better. They lost their po4 and their captain and now the cores are bad? The problem with Dendi is that no good player or captain wants to join the team because of him. Russian casters and esports figures have been talking about this for a long time. Even NaVi's CEO commented on it: "There is really no trust in Dendi, not only from fans but from players as well. We don’t know what to do in this situation right now.” Duck- has every right to defend Dendi, I understand that, but consider this: NaVi models all their teams around him, he is basically their center piece, so why is he surprised that many are saying that, maybe just maybe, Dendi is the problem? For the record, I dont see him as the sole problem, but I do think he is part of the problem. Its a normal reaction by fans of the team rather than one of their players. Yes Dendi was a beast one time, he got praised for his skill, heck he was even deified by many people. If people accept praise when they are good then by the same principle they should accept being criticized when their skill falls off. No one should be above scrutiny, not even Dendi.
Even if all this makes sense, think about this:
The moment NaVi loses Dendi, NaVi becomes just another CIS stack. NaVi cannot buy VP, thus they won't let Dendi go. The only way NaVi will let Dendi go, is if they believe they can achieve something without him. Now can you tell how high are the chances of forming a competitive CIS team without Dendi? What other mid is free and better than Dendi? Reso is no midplayer no more. Lets be real, even tho Dendi is not top tier and won't carry you alone to success, there is no other CIS mid available, not G, not fn, not iLTW, that can fit a team and do better, if there were, he would be sucessful already.
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On March 26 2018 04:21 Racket wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2018 03:43 FreakyDroid wrote:On March 24 2018 18:09 Racket wrote:On March 24 2018 17:40 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 24 2018 13:44 DucK- wrote:
Why are people asking dendi to leave when clearly its the supports/leadership that is the problem. The 3 cores are OK the moment navi fixes the issue. Of course if dendi/general are in the way of a good captain joining or he insists to lead then OK they should go. Otherwise stop making dendi the scapegoat of navi issues. I think it's a fair question to ask what Dendi is bringing to the table, considering he's been the sole constant in the last 4 years. Even if he's not the problem, he hasn't been the solution either. Duck- has a point. Before the swap NaVi was doing good and getting better. All that wasn't just Rodjer, the team was playing better. They lost their po4 and their captain and now the cores are bad? The problem with Dendi is that no good player or captain wants to join the team because of him. Russian casters and esports figures have been talking about this for a long time. Even NaVi's CEO commented on it: "There is really no trust in Dendi, not only from fans but from players as well. We don’t know what to do in this situation right now.” Duck- has every right to defend Dendi, I understand that, but consider this: NaVi models all their teams around him, he is basically their center piece, so why is he surprised that many are saying that, maybe just maybe, Dendi is the problem? For the record, I dont see him as the sole problem, but I do think he is part of the problem. Its a normal reaction by fans of the team rather than one of their players. Yes Dendi was a beast one time, he got praised for his skill, heck he was even deified by many people. If people accept praise when they are good then by the same principle they should accept being criticized when their skill falls off. No one should be above scrutiny, not even Dendi. Even if all this makes sense, think about this: The moment NaVi loses Dendi, NaVi becomes just another CIS stack. NaVi cannot buy VP, thus they won't let Dendi go. The only way NaVi will let Dendi go, is if they believe they can achieve something without him. Now can you tell how high are the chances of forming a competitive CIS team without Dendi? What other mid is free and better than Dendi? Reso is no midplayer no more. Lets be real, even tho Dendi is not top tier and won't carry you alone to success, there is no other CIS mid available, not G, not fn, not iLTW, that can fit a team and do better, if there were, he would be sucessful already.
Meanwhile almost every other top tier team has been investing in unknown players who end up being the stars of the team.
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On March 26 2018 05:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2018 04:21 Racket wrote:On March 26 2018 03:43 FreakyDroid wrote:On March 24 2018 18:09 Racket wrote:On March 24 2018 17:40 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 24 2018 13:44 DucK- wrote:
Why are people asking dendi to leave when clearly its the supports/leadership that is the problem. The 3 cores are OK the moment navi fixes the issue. Of course if dendi/general are in the way of a good captain joining or he insists to lead then OK they should go. Otherwise stop making dendi the scapegoat of navi issues. I think it's a fair question to ask what Dendi is bringing to the table, considering he's been the sole constant in the last 4 years. Even if he's not the problem, he hasn't been the solution either. Duck- has a point. Before the swap NaVi was doing good and getting better. All that wasn't just Rodjer, the team was playing better. They lost their po4 and their captain and now the cores are bad? The problem with Dendi is that no good player or captain wants to join the team because of him. Russian casters and esports figures have been talking about this for a long time. Even NaVi's CEO commented on it: "There is really no trust in Dendi, not only from fans but from players as well. We don’t know what to do in this situation right now.” Duck- has every right to defend Dendi, I understand that, but consider this: NaVi models all their teams around him, he is basically their center piece, so why is he surprised that many are saying that, maybe just maybe, Dendi is the problem? For the record, I dont see him as the sole problem, but I do think he is part of the problem. Its a normal reaction by fans of the team rather than one of their players. Yes Dendi was a beast one time, he got praised for his skill, heck he was even deified by many people. If people accept praise when they are good then by the same principle they should accept being criticized when their skill falls off. No one should be above scrutiny, not even Dendi. Even if all this makes sense, think about this: The moment NaVi loses Dendi, NaVi becomes just another CIS stack. NaVi cannot buy VP, thus they won't let Dendi go. The only way NaVi will let Dendi go, is if they believe they can achieve something without him. Now can you tell how high are the chances of forming a competitive CIS team without Dendi? What other mid is free and better than Dendi? Reso is no midplayer no more. Lets be real, even tho Dendi is not top tier and won't carry you alone to success, there is no other CIS mid available, not G, not fn, not iLTW, that can fit a team and do better, if there were, he would be sucessful already. Meanwhile almost every other top tier team has been investing in unknown players who end up being the stars of the team.
Yes, outside of CIS. You may want NaVi to try something different, but they might be to afraid to lose everything. I am not saying what they do is right, I am just stating a fact that in this scene is very important.
Lets say they kick Dendi and hire some unknown rising star. Are you sure that this new player would make this team work as it is? Even without a proper captain? If you need a captain, is it really necessary to kick Dendi? I don't think so. First find a captain, then find a replacement for him. If no one wants to join because of him, then first find a captain that would join if you kick him and then you kick him.
As I said, there is no CIS midlaner available better than Dendi and there is only one CIS captain almost on par with Solo and he is his coach, so as much as I would love to see NaVi do well, I am being realistic and wouldn't lose Dendi for nothing.
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Yeah looks pretty much that this "team" is stuck till the end of TI. Then the NaVi management has to act or they will contine like this and sooner or later end like LodAlliance.
I mean du you think LIL and Crystalize will stay? They are gone as soon as there is a good offer.
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I mean, there's basically two options right now:
1) Accept that you're a marketing team, not a competitive one, hope that Mineski and Fnatic don't pass you in DPC points, and settle for just showing up at TI. Then rebuild after TI.
2) Rebuild now and spend the next 5 months trying to get into competitive shape for the CIS qualifiers.
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The way I see it is very grim. I guess they will be stuck till after TI and then maybe, maybe... Dendi will be forced to leave the lane or the team. We will see.
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i have no idea what is wrong with the team aside from the asinine shot calling and their teamplay as a whole
all i can wish for is for them to not disband
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On March 26 2018 05:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2018 04:21 Racket wrote:On March 26 2018 03:43 FreakyDroid wrote:On March 24 2018 18:09 Racket wrote:On March 24 2018 17:40 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 24 2018 13:44 DucK- wrote:
Why are people asking dendi to leave when clearly its the supports/leadership that is the problem. The 3 cores are OK the moment navi fixes the issue. Of course if dendi/general are in the way of a good captain joining or he insists to lead then OK they should go. Otherwise stop making dendi the scapegoat of navi issues. I think it's a fair question to ask what Dendi is bringing to the table, considering he's been the sole constant in the last 4 years. Even if he's not the problem, he hasn't been the solution either. Duck- has a point. Before the swap NaVi was doing good and getting better. All that wasn't just Rodjer, the team was playing better. They lost their po4 and their captain and now the cores are bad? The problem with Dendi is that no good player or captain wants to join the team because of him. Russian casters and esports figures have been talking about this for a long time. Even NaVi's CEO commented on it: "There is really no trust in Dendi, not only from fans but from players as well. We don’t know what to do in this situation right now.” Duck- has every right to defend Dendi, I understand that, but consider this: NaVi models all their teams around him, he is basically their center piece, so why is he surprised that many are saying that, maybe just maybe, Dendi is the problem? For the record, I dont see him as the sole problem, but I do think he is part of the problem. Its a normal reaction by fans of the team rather than one of their players. Yes Dendi was a beast one time, he got praised for his skill, heck he was even deified by many people. If people accept praise when they are good then by the same principle they should accept being criticized when their skill falls off. No one should be above scrutiny, not even Dendi. Even if all this makes sense, think about this: The moment NaVi loses Dendi, NaVi becomes just another CIS stack. NaVi cannot buy VP, thus they won't let Dendi go. The only way NaVi will let Dendi go, is if they believe they can achieve something without him. Now can you tell how high are the chances of forming a competitive CIS team without Dendi? What other mid is free and better than Dendi? Reso is no midplayer no more. Lets be real, even tho Dendi is not top tier and won't carry you alone to success, there is no other CIS mid available, not G, not fn, not iLTW, that can fit a team and do better, if there were, he would be sucessful already. Meanwhile almost every other top tier team has been investing in unknown players who end up being the stars of the team.
because General and Crystallize are know powerhouses which joined NaVi for millions of dollars right?
That post is wrong on so many levels is mind blowing
Is not like NaVi have not invested in unknown players, is that they need that certain piece of the puzzle (a proper captain) to put the team at a good position again
edit: also Sonneiko was unknown.
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On March 26 2018 21:20 Faruko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2018 05:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 26 2018 04:21 Racket wrote:On March 26 2018 03:43 FreakyDroid wrote:On March 24 2018 18:09 Racket wrote:On March 24 2018 17:40 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 24 2018 13:44 DucK- wrote:
Why are people asking dendi to leave when clearly its the supports/leadership that is the problem. The 3 cores are OK the moment navi fixes the issue. Of course if dendi/general are in the way of a good captain joining or he insists to lead then OK they should go. Otherwise stop making dendi the scapegoat of navi issues. I think it's a fair question to ask what Dendi is bringing to the table, considering he's been the sole constant in the last 4 years. Even if he's not the problem, he hasn't been the solution either. Duck- has a point. Before the swap NaVi was doing good and getting better. All that wasn't just Rodjer, the team was playing better. They lost their po4 and their captain and now the cores are bad? The problem with Dendi is that no good player or captain wants to join the team because of him. Russian casters and esports figures have been talking about this for a long time. Even NaVi's CEO commented on it: "There is really no trust in Dendi, not only from fans but from players as well. We don’t know what to do in this situation right now.” Duck- has every right to defend Dendi, I understand that, but consider this: NaVi models all their teams around him, he is basically their center piece, so why is he surprised that many are saying that, maybe just maybe, Dendi is the problem? For the record, I dont see him as the sole problem, but I do think he is part of the problem. Its a normal reaction by fans of the team rather than one of their players. Yes Dendi was a beast one time, he got praised for his skill, heck he was even deified by many people. If people accept praise when they are good then by the same principle they should accept being criticized when their skill falls off. No one should be above scrutiny, not even Dendi. Even if all this makes sense, think about this: The moment NaVi loses Dendi, NaVi becomes just another CIS stack. NaVi cannot buy VP, thus they won't let Dendi go. The only way NaVi will let Dendi go, is if they believe they can achieve something without him. Now can you tell how high are the chances of forming a competitive CIS team without Dendi? What other mid is free and better than Dendi? Reso is no midplayer no more. Lets be real, even tho Dendi is not top tier and won't carry you alone to success, there is no other CIS mid available, not G, not fn, not iLTW, that can fit a team and do better, if there were, he would be sucessful already. Meanwhile almost every other top tier team has been investing in unknown players who end up being the stars of the team. because General and Crystallize are know powerhouses which joined NaVi for millions of dollars right? That post is wrong on so many levels is mind blowing Is not like NaVi have not invested in unknown players, is that they need that certain piece of the puzzle (a proper captain) to put the team at a good position again edit: also Sonneiko was unknown.
I guess he was talking about Sumail, Ana, Miracle and Abed.. maybe, who knows. Four players in like 3 years among 12412312 teams.
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On March 27 2018 00:34 Racket wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2018 21:20 Faruko wrote:On March 26 2018 05:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 26 2018 04:21 Racket wrote:On March 26 2018 03:43 FreakyDroid wrote:On March 24 2018 18:09 Racket wrote:On March 24 2018 17:40 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 24 2018 13:44 DucK- wrote:
Why are people asking dendi to leave when clearly its the supports/leadership that is the problem. The 3 cores are OK the moment navi fixes the issue. Of course if dendi/general are in the way of a good captain joining or he insists to lead then OK they should go. Otherwise stop making dendi the scapegoat of navi issues. I think it's a fair question to ask what Dendi is bringing to the table, considering he's been the sole constant in the last 4 years. Even if he's not the problem, he hasn't been the solution either. Duck- has a point. Before the swap NaVi was doing good and getting better. All that wasn't just Rodjer, the team was playing better. They lost their po4 and their captain and now the cores are bad? The problem with Dendi is that no good player or captain wants to join the team because of him. Russian casters and esports figures have been talking about this for a long time. Even NaVi's CEO commented on it: "There is really no trust in Dendi, not only from fans but from players as well. We don’t know what to do in this situation right now.” Duck- has every right to defend Dendi, I understand that, but consider this: NaVi models all their teams around him, he is basically their center piece, so why is he surprised that many are saying that, maybe just maybe, Dendi is the problem? For the record, I dont see him as the sole problem, but I do think he is part of the problem. Its a normal reaction by fans of the team rather than one of their players. Yes Dendi was a beast one time, he got praised for his skill, heck he was even deified by many people. If people accept praise when they are good then by the same principle they should accept being criticized when their skill falls off. No one should be above scrutiny, not even Dendi. Even if all this makes sense, think about this: The moment NaVi loses Dendi, NaVi becomes just another CIS stack. NaVi cannot buy VP, thus they won't let Dendi go. The only way NaVi will let Dendi go, is if they believe they can achieve something without him. Now can you tell how high are the chances of forming a competitive CIS team without Dendi? What other mid is free and better than Dendi? Reso is no midplayer no more. Lets be real, even tho Dendi is not top tier and won't carry you alone to success, there is no other CIS mid available, not G, not fn, not iLTW, that can fit a team and do better, if there were, he would be sucessful already. Meanwhile almost every other top tier team has been investing in unknown players who end up being the stars of the team. because General and Crystallize are know powerhouses which joined NaVi for millions of dollars right? That post is wrong on so many levels is mind blowing Is not like NaVi have not invested in unknown players, is that they need that certain piece of the puzzle (a proper captain) to put the team at a good position again edit: also Sonneiko was unknown. I guess he was talking about Sumail, Ana, Miracle and Abed.. maybe, who knows. Four players in like 3 years among 12412312 teams.
Well there are also players like Yapzor, GH, MindControl,Paparazi and many more in the Chinese and SEA scenes that broke out very quickly on the scene and established themselves as top players. In fact at this moment the Chinese scene is booming with young talent that's doing great.
I can't speak on WolfintheSheep's behalf, but my point was that many captains wont even join NaVi because of Dendi. If they need a captain, which I agree with, and if captains dont want to join because of Dendi ... well you can see the conundrum here.
Its a stupid situation, and Im not saying those captains are right or that Dendi cant shine again under a new captain, not at all. Im just saying that perhaps NaVi should finally realize that in order to restructure their team for competitive success, maybe just maybe, they need to give a signal that they are willing to hand over the decision who stays on the team to that captain. And if that captain decides to keep Dendi, its all fine, but if he wants to build a team with another mid player, that should be his decision. Right now it seems as if NaVi is a looking to get a new captain as long as that captain agrees to have Dendi on the team. Don't take this as an attack on Dendi or anything, Im just laying down the situation as I see it. Perhaps I'm wrong dunno.
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On March 26 2018 21:20 Faruko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2018 05:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 26 2018 04:21 Racket wrote:On March 26 2018 03:43 FreakyDroid wrote:On March 24 2018 18:09 Racket wrote:On March 24 2018 17:40 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 24 2018 13:44 DucK- wrote:
Why are people asking dendi to leave when clearly its the supports/leadership that is the problem. The 3 cores are OK the moment navi fixes the issue. Of course if dendi/general are in the way of a good captain joining or he insists to lead then OK they should go. Otherwise stop making dendi the scapegoat of navi issues. I think it's a fair question to ask what Dendi is bringing to the table, considering he's been the sole constant in the last 4 years. Even if he's not the problem, he hasn't been the solution either. Duck- has a point. Before the swap NaVi was doing good and getting better. All that wasn't just Rodjer, the team was playing better. They lost their po4 and their captain and now the cores are bad? The problem with Dendi is that no good player or captain wants to join the team because of him. Russian casters and esports figures have been talking about this for a long time. Even NaVi's CEO commented on it: "There is really no trust in Dendi, not only from fans but from players as well. We don’t know what to do in this situation right now.” Duck- has every right to defend Dendi, I understand that, but consider this: NaVi models all their teams around him, he is basically their center piece, so why is he surprised that many are saying that, maybe just maybe, Dendi is the problem? For the record, I dont see him as the sole problem, but I do think he is part of the problem. Its a normal reaction by fans of the team rather than one of their players. Yes Dendi was a beast one time, he got praised for his skill, heck he was even deified by many people. If people accept praise when they are good then by the same principle they should accept being criticized when their skill falls off. No one should be above scrutiny, not even Dendi. Even if all this makes sense, think about this: The moment NaVi loses Dendi, NaVi becomes just another CIS stack. NaVi cannot buy VP, thus they won't let Dendi go. The only way NaVi will let Dendi go, is if they believe they can achieve something without him. Now can you tell how high are the chances of forming a competitive CIS team without Dendi? What other mid is free and better than Dendi? Reso is no midplayer no more. Lets be real, even tho Dendi is not top tier and won't carry you alone to success, there is no other CIS mid available, not G, not fn, not iLTW, that can fit a team and do better, if there were, he would be sucessful already. Meanwhile almost every other top tier team has been investing in unknown players who end up being the stars of the team. because General and Crystallize are know powerhouses which joined NaVi for millions of dollars right? That post is wrong on so many levels is mind blowing Is not like NaVi have not invested in unknown players, is that they need that certain piece of the puzzle (a proper captain) to put the team at a good position again edit: also Sonneiko was unknown.
Yes, so the argument that Dendi has no replacement falls a little flat. Or even that he's staying mid because he's the best option.
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What mythical captains who don't join NaVi because of Dendi are people talking about? It doesn't seem to me there are any established captains in the CIS scene with any sort of consistent success (outside of Solo now with VP). They could be building their own teams without Dendi and succeeding, but it doesn't seem to be happening.
From NaVi's perspective I don't really see why they'd let Dendi go. Dendi brings a lot of fans to the team, and I don't see how removing him could in any way guarantee much better success. It's not like NaVi has been worse than multiple CIS teams and there are multiple captains available who you could build a team around.
Removing Dendi might be a thing if VP somehow bombs at TI and end up breaking up. Then it would probably be smart to take Ramzes or Noone and build from there. But otherwise I don't really see the benefit
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On March 27 2018 02:47 FreakyDroid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 00:34 Racket wrote:On March 26 2018 21:20 Faruko wrote:On March 26 2018 05:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 26 2018 04:21 Racket wrote:On March 26 2018 03:43 FreakyDroid wrote:On March 24 2018 18:09 Racket wrote:On March 24 2018 17:40 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 24 2018 13:44 DucK- wrote:
Why are people asking dendi to leave when clearly its the supports/leadership that is the problem. The 3 cores are OK the moment navi fixes the issue. Of course if dendi/general are in the way of a good captain joining or he insists to lead then OK they should go. Otherwise stop making dendi the scapegoat of navi issues. I think it's a fair question to ask what Dendi is bringing to the table, considering he's been the sole constant in the last 4 years. Even if he's not the problem, he hasn't been the solution either. Duck- has a point. Before the swap NaVi was doing good and getting better. All that wasn't just Rodjer, the team was playing better. They lost their po4 and their captain and now the cores are bad? The problem with Dendi is that no good player or captain wants to join the team because of him. Russian casters and esports figures have been talking about this for a long time. Even NaVi's CEO commented on it: "There is really no trust in Dendi, not only from fans but from players as well. We don’t know what to do in this situation right now.” Duck- has every right to defend Dendi, I understand that, but consider this: NaVi models all their teams around him, he is basically their center piece, so why is he surprised that many are saying that, maybe just maybe, Dendi is the problem? For the record, I dont see him as the sole problem, but I do think he is part of the problem. Its a normal reaction by fans of the team rather than one of their players. Yes Dendi was a beast one time, he got praised for his skill, heck he was even deified by many people. If people accept praise when they are good then by the same principle they should accept being criticized when their skill falls off. No one should be above scrutiny, not even Dendi. Even if all this makes sense, think about this: The moment NaVi loses Dendi, NaVi becomes just another CIS stack. NaVi cannot buy VP, thus they won't let Dendi go. The only way NaVi will let Dendi go, is if they believe they can achieve something without him. Now can you tell how high are the chances of forming a competitive CIS team without Dendi? What other mid is free and better than Dendi? Reso is no midplayer no more. Lets be real, even tho Dendi is not top tier and won't carry you alone to success, there is no other CIS mid available, not G, not fn, not iLTW, that can fit a team and do better, if there were, he would be sucessful already. Meanwhile almost every other top tier team has been investing in unknown players who end up being the stars of the team. because General and Crystallize are know powerhouses which joined NaVi for millions of dollars right? That post is wrong on so many levels is mind blowing Is not like NaVi have not invested in unknown players, is that they need that certain piece of the puzzle (a proper captain) to put the team at a good position again edit: also Sonneiko was unknown. I guess he was talking about Sumail, Ana, Miracle and Abed.. maybe, who knows. Four players in like 3 years among 12412312 teams. Well there are also players like Yapzor, GH, MindControl,Paparazi and many more in the Chinese and SEA scenes that broke out very quickly on the scene and established themselves as top players. In fact at this moment the Chinese scene is booming with young talent that's doing great. I can't speak on WolfintheSheep's behalf, but my point was that many captains wont even join NaVi because of Dendi. If they need a captain, which I agree with, and if captains dont want to join because of Dendi ... well you can see the conundrum here. Its a stupid situation, and Im not saying those captains are right or that Dendi cant shine again under a new captain, not at all. Im just saying that perhaps NaVi should finally realize that in order to restructure their team for competitive success, maybe just maybe, they need to give a signal that they are willing to hand over the decision who stays on the team to that captain. And if that captain decides to keep Dendi, its all fine, but if he wants to build a team with another mid player, that should be his decision. Right now it seems as if NaVi is a looking to get a new captain as long as that captain agrees to have Dendi on the team. Don't take this as an attack on Dendi or anything, Im just laying down the situation as I see it. Perhaps I'm wrong dunno.
I can't talk about the Chinese scene, I have no idea. Lets be a bit more specific, GH fits the profile perfectly but Yapzor and MindControl don't. Why? MindControl like Matumba formed the team and didn't join a pre-established team, so the whole investment thing does not fit. Yapzor was already proving he was worth hiring so no fit there, we could argue, yes he is more like a maybe, but I don't think Secret did a risky move there.
Now, to be kind of more organized, we are discussing NaVi's current state and possible fixes:
- Investing in barely known players
-> Hired Sonneiko, General, Ax.mo, Ditya Ra, Cristallize, Lebron
Done!
- They are missing a capable captain
-> No captain found yet
--> Dendi should be kicked to attract captains that wouldn't join him.
---> Interestingly enough, no one can mention a single available and promising captain fitting the description.
To be done!
I am not against kicking Dendi but I don't think that should be the first move as he has shown he can play very well under proper leadership.
Which CIS captain is worth hiring while kicking Dendi? Not Fng, not Cema, not Afterlife.. and we can stop already because I can't think of any other remarkable CIS captain.
If we were to open this discussion to european/american players, I don't think NaVi will go that path again.
On March 27 2018 02:53 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2018 21:20 Faruko wrote:On March 26 2018 05:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 26 2018 04:21 Racket wrote:On March 26 2018 03:43 FreakyDroid wrote:On March 24 2018 18:09 Racket wrote:On March 24 2018 17:40 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 24 2018 13:44 DucK- wrote:
Why are people asking dendi to leave when clearly its the supports/leadership that is the problem. The 3 cores are OK the moment navi fixes the issue. Of course if dendi/general are in the way of a good captain joining or he insists to lead then OK they should go. Otherwise stop making dendi the scapegoat of navi issues. I think it's a fair question to ask what Dendi is bringing to the table, considering he's been the sole constant in the last 4 years. Even if he's not the problem, he hasn't been the solution either. Duck- has a point. Before the swap NaVi was doing good and getting better. All that wasn't just Rodjer, the team was playing better. They lost their po4 and their captain and now the cores are bad? The problem with Dendi is that no good player or captain wants to join the team because of him. Russian casters and esports figures have been talking about this for a long time. Even NaVi's CEO commented on it: "There is really no trust in Dendi, not only from fans but from players as well. We don’t know what to do in this situation right now.” Duck- has every right to defend Dendi, I understand that, but consider this: NaVi models all their teams around him, he is basically their center piece, so why is he surprised that many are saying that, maybe just maybe, Dendi is the problem? For the record, I dont see him as the sole problem, but I do think he is part of the problem. Its a normal reaction by fans of the team rather than one of their players. Yes Dendi was a beast one time, he got praised for his skill, heck he was even deified by many people. If people accept praise when they are good then by the same principle they should accept being criticized when their skill falls off. No one should be above scrutiny, not even Dendi. Even if all this makes sense, think about this: The moment NaVi loses Dendi, NaVi becomes just another CIS stack. NaVi cannot buy VP, thus they won't let Dendi go. The only way NaVi will let Dendi go, is if they believe they can achieve something without him. Now can you tell how high are the chances of forming a competitive CIS team without Dendi? What other mid is free and better than Dendi? Reso is no midplayer no more. Lets be real, even tho Dendi is not top tier and won't carry you alone to success, there is no other CIS mid available, not G, not fn, not iLTW, that can fit a team and do better, if there were, he would be sucessful already. Meanwhile almost every other top tier team has been investing in unknown players who end up being the stars of the team. because General and Crystallize are know powerhouses which joined NaVi for millions of dollars right? That post is wrong on so many levels is mind blowing Is not like NaVi have not invested in unknown players, is that they need that certain piece of the puzzle (a proper captain) to put the team at a good position again edit: also Sonneiko was unknown. Yes, so the argument that Dendi has no replacement falls a little flat. Or even that he's staying mid because he's the best option.
You can try a little harder. At least name players so we can talk about.
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On March 27 2018 03:42 Racket wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 02:53 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 26 2018 21:20 Faruko wrote:On March 26 2018 05:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 26 2018 04:21 Racket wrote:On March 26 2018 03:43 FreakyDroid wrote:On March 24 2018 18:09 Racket wrote:On March 24 2018 17:40 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 24 2018 13:44 DucK- wrote:
Why are people asking dendi to leave when clearly its the supports/leadership that is the problem. The 3 cores are OK the moment navi fixes the issue. Of course if dendi/general are in the way of a good captain joining or he insists to lead then OK they should go. Otherwise stop making dendi the scapegoat of navi issues. I think it's a fair question to ask what Dendi is bringing to the table, considering he's been the sole constant in the last 4 years. Even if he's not the problem, he hasn't been the solution either. Duck- has a point. Before the swap NaVi was doing good and getting better. All that wasn't just Rodjer, the team was playing better. They lost their po4 and their captain and now the cores are bad? The problem with Dendi is that no good player or captain wants to join the team because of him. Russian casters and esports figures have been talking about this for a long time. Even NaVi's CEO commented on it: "There is really no trust in Dendi, not only from fans but from players as well. We don’t know what to do in this situation right now.” Duck- has every right to defend Dendi, I understand that, but consider this: NaVi models all their teams around him, he is basically their center piece, so why is he surprised that many are saying that, maybe just maybe, Dendi is the problem? For the record, I dont see him as the sole problem, but I do think he is part of the problem. Its a normal reaction by fans of the team rather than one of their players. Yes Dendi was a beast one time, he got praised for his skill, heck he was even deified by many people. If people accept praise when they are good then by the same principle they should accept being criticized when their skill falls off. No one should be above scrutiny, not even Dendi. Even if all this makes sense, think about this: The moment NaVi loses Dendi, NaVi becomes just another CIS stack. NaVi cannot buy VP, thus they won't let Dendi go. The only way NaVi will let Dendi go, is if they believe they can achieve something without him. Now can you tell how high are the chances of forming a competitive CIS team without Dendi? What other mid is free and better than Dendi? Reso is no midplayer no more. Lets be real, even tho Dendi is not top tier and won't carry you alone to success, there is no other CIS mid available, not G, not fn, not iLTW, that can fit a team and do better, if there were, he would be sucessful already. Meanwhile almost every other top tier team has been investing in unknown players who end up being the stars of the team. because General and Crystallize are know powerhouses which joined NaVi for millions of dollars right? That post is wrong on so many levels is mind blowing Is not like NaVi have not invested in unknown players, is that they need that certain piece of the puzzle (a proper captain) to put the team at a good position again edit: also Sonneiko was unknown. Yes, so the argument that Dendi has no replacement falls a little flat. Or even that he's staying mid because he's the best option. You can try a little harder. At least name players so we can talk about.
I mean, I don't know what the CIS ranked ladder looks like? Hell, Crystallize would probably be a better mid player.
And frankly, considering that Na'vi keeps losing talented players and/or captains like ArtStyle, Sonneiko and Rodjer, the options were and are clearly there, they just aren't staying around.
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On March 27 2018 04:50 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 03:42 Racket wrote:On March 27 2018 02:53 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 26 2018 21:20 Faruko wrote:On March 26 2018 05:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 26 2018 04:21 Racket wrote:On March 26 2018 03:43 FreakyDroid wrote:On March 24 2018 18:09 Racket wrote:On March 24 2018 17:40 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 24 2018 13:44 DucK- wrote:
Why are people asking dendi to leave when clearly its the supports/leadership that is the problem. The 3 cores are OK the moment navi fixes the issue. Of course if dendi/general are in the way of a good captain joining or he insists to lead then OK they should go. Otherwise stop making dendi the scapegoat of navi issues. I think it's a fair question to ask what Dendi is bringing to the table, considering he's been the sole constant in the last 4 years. Even if he's not the problem, he hasn't been the solution either. Duck- has a point. Before the swap NaVi was doing good and getting better. All that wasn't just Rodjer, the team was playing better. They lost their po4 and their captain and now the cores are bad? The problem with Dendi is that no good player or captain wants to join the team because of him. Russian casters and esports figures have been talking about this for a long time. Even NaVi's CEO commented on it: "There is really no trust in Dendi, not only from fans but from players as well. We don’t know what to do in this situation right now.” Duck- has every right to defend Dendi, I understand that, but consider this: NaVi models all their teams around him, he is basically their center piece, so why is he surprised that many are saying that, maybe just maybe, Dendi is the problem? For the record, I dont see him as the sole problem, but I do think he is part of the problem. Its a normal reaction by fans of the team rather than one of their players. Yes Dendi was a beast one time, he got praised for his skill, heck he was even deified by many people. If people accept praise when they are good then by the same principle they should accept being criticized when their skill falls off. No one should be above scrutiny, not even Dendi. Even if all this makes sense, think about this: The moment NaVi loses Dendi, NaVi becomes just another CIS stack. NaVi cannot buy VP, thus they won't let Dendi go. The only way NaVi will let Dendi go, is if they believe they can achieve something without him. Now can you tell how high are the chances of forming a competitive CIS team without Dendi? What other mid is free and better than Dendi? Reso is no midplayer no more. Lets be real, even tho Dendi is not top tier and won't carry you alone to success, there is no other CIS mid available, not G, not fn, not iLTW, that can fit a team and do better, if there were, he would be sucessful already. Meanwhile almost every other top tier team has been investing in unknown players who end up being the stars of the team. because General and Crystallize are know powerhouses which joined NaVi for millions of dollars right? That post is wrong on so many levels is mind blowing Is not like NaVi have not invested in unknown players, is that they need that certain piece of the puzzle (a proper captain) to put the team at a good position again edit: also Sonneiko was unknown. Yes, so the argument that Dendi has no replacement falls a little flat. Or even that he's staying mid because he's the best option. You can try a little harder. At least name players so we can talk about. I mean, I don't know what the CIS ranked ladder looks like? Hell, Crystallize would probably be a better mid player. And frankly, considering that Na'vi keeps losing talented players and/or captains like ArtStyle, Sonneiko and Rodjer, the options were and are clearly there, they just aren't staying around.
So you dont know of alternatives but can safely assume that they exist.
And what is the implication of them not staying around ? Are they not staying around because of Dendi ? Just curious..
Surely there was a point to bringing that up. Please do clarify.
Again I am in the same boat as some other people here, I dont really care what becomes of Dendi but no one has offered a good enough reason to explain why and in what scenario he should be adjusted/removed that solves any of the identified issues.
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On March 27 2018 04:50 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 03:42 Racket wrote:On March 27 2018 02:53 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 26 2018 21:20 Faruko wrote:On March 26 2018 05:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 26 2018 04:21 Racket wrote:On March 26 2018 03:43 FreakyDroid wrote:On March 24 2018 18:09 Racket wrote:On March 24 2018 17:40 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 24 2018 13:44 DucK- wrote:
Why are people asking dendi to leave when clearly its the supports/leadership that is the problem. The 3 cores are OK the moment navi fixes the issue. Of course if dendi/general are in the way of a good captain joining or he insists to lead then OK they should go. Otherwise stop making dendi the scapegoat of navi issues. I think it's a fair question to ask what Dendi is bringing to the table, considering he's been the sole constant in the last 4 years. Even if he's not the problem, he hasn't been the solution either. Duck- has a point. Before the swap NaVi was doing good and getting better. All that wasn't just Rodjer, the team was playing better. They lost their po4 and their captain and now the cores are bad? The problem with Dendi is that no good player or captain wants to join the team because of him. Russian casters and esports figures have been talking about this for a long time. Even NaVi's CEO commented on it: "There is really no trust in Dendi, not only from fans but from players as well. We don’t know what to do in this situation right now.” Duck- has every right to defend Dendi, I understand that, but consider this: NaVi models all their teams around him, he is basically their center piece, so why is he surprised that many are saying that, maybe just maybe, Dendi is the problem? For the record, I dont see him as the sole problem, but I do think he is part of the problem. Its a normal reaction by fans of the team rather than one of their players. Yes Dendi was a beast one time, he got praised for his skill, heck he was even deified by many people. If people accept praise when they are good then by the same principle they should accept being criticized when their skill falls off. No one should be above scrutiny, not even Dendi. Even if all this makes sense, think about this: The moment NaVi loses Dendi, NaVi becomes just another CIS stack. NaVi cannot buy VP, thus they won't let Dendi go. The only way NaVi will let Dendi go, is if they believe they can achieve something without him. Now can you tell how high are the chances of forming a competitive CIS team without Dendi? What other mid is free and better than Dendi? Reso is no midplayer no more. Lets be real, even tho Dendi is not top tier and won't carry you alone to success, there is no other CIS mid available, not G, not fn, not iLTW, that can fit a team and do better, if there were, he would be sucessful already. Meanwhile almost every other top tier team has been investing in unknown players who end up being the stars of the team. because General and Crystallize are know powerhouses which joined NaVi for millions of dollars right? That post is wrong on so many levels is mind blowing Is not like NaVi have not invested in unknown players, is that they need that certain piece of the puzzle (a proper captain) to put the team at a good position again edit: also Sonneiko was unknown. Yes, so the argument that Dendi has no replacement falls a little flat. Or even that he's staying mid because he's the best option. You can try a little harder. At least name players so we can talk about. I mean, I don't know what the CIS ranked ladder looks like? Hell, Crystallize would probably be a better mid player. And frankly, considering that Na'vi keeps losing talented players and/or captains like ArtStyle, Sonneiko and Rodjer, the options were and are clearly there, they just aren't staying around.
ArtStyle had quite the chances on NaVi, he wasn't really succesful.
Rodjer was all about money and him wanting to leave (I mean if you are playing for say... Liverpool and Real Madrid calls you, would you not go??????? Pretty much same situation with NaVi / VP nowadays).
To talk about Sonneiko we must take what we have, NaVi saying he is a great player but not exactly easy to play with, so they tried to make it work (2 times, by the way) and it seems like it just didn't worked out. Is this the full story? who knows, it does looks like nobody rushed to get Sonneiko, SO THERE MIGHT BE SOME KIND OF TRUE IN ALL OF THIS, after all, he is better than most CIS supports, bar Rodjer, which was also part of NaVi.
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On March 27 2018 06:32 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 04:50 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 27 2018 03:42 Racket wrote:On March 27 2018 02:53 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 26 2018 21:20 Faruko wrote:On March 26 2018 05:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 26 2018 04:21 Racket wrote:On March 26 2018 03:43 FreakyDroid wrote:On March 24 2018 18:09 Racket wrote:On March 24 2018 17:40 WolfintheSheep wrote:
[quote]
I think it's a fair question to ask what Dendi is bringing to the table, considering he's been the sole constant in the last 4 years. Even if he's not the problem, he hasn't been the solution either. Duck- has a point. Before the swap NaVi was doing good and getting better. All that wasn't just Rodjer, the team was playing better. They lost their po4 and their captain and now the cores are bad? The problem with Dendi is that no good player or captain wants to join the team because of him. Russian casters and esports figures have been talking about this for a long time. Even NaVi's CEO commented on it: "There is really no trust in Dendi, not only from fans but from players as well. We don’t know what to do in this situation right now.” Duck- has every right to defend Dendi, I understand that, but consider this: NaVi models all their teams around him, he is basically their center piece, so why is he surprised that many are saying that, maybe just maybe, Dendi is the problem? For the record, I dont see him as the sole problem, but I do think he is part of the problem. Its a normal reaction by fans of the team rather than one of their players. Yes Dendi was a beast one time, he got praised for his skill, heck he was even deified by many people. If people accept praise when they are good then by the same principle they should accept being criticized when their skill falls off. No one should be above scrutiny, not even Dendi. Even if all this makes sense, think about this: The moment NaVi loses Dendi, NaVi becomes just another CIS stack. NaVi cannot buy VP, thus they won't let Dendi go. The only way NaVi will let Dendi go, is if they believe they can achieve something without him. Now can you tell how high are the chances of forming a competitive CIS team without Dendi? What other mid is free and better than Dendi? Reso is no midplayer no more. Lets be real, even tho Dendi is not top tier and won't carry you alone to success, there is no other CIS mid available, not G, not fn, not iLTW, that can fit a team and do better, if there were, he would be sucessful already. Meanwhile almost every other top tier team has been investing in unknown players who end up being the stars of the team. because General and Crystallize are know powerhouses which joined NaVi for millions of dollars right? That post is wrong on so many levels is mind blowing Is not like NaVi have not invested in unknown players, is that they need that certain piece of the puzzle (a proper captain) to put the team at a good position again edit: also Sonneiko was unknown. Yes, so the argument that Dendi has no replacement falls a little flat. Or even that he's staying mid because he's the best option. You can try a little harder. At least name players so we can talk about. I mean, I don't know what the CIS ranked ladder looks like? Hell, Crystallize would probably be a better mid player. And frankly, considering that Na'vi keeps losing talented players and/or captains like ArtStyle, Sonneiko and Rodjer, the options were and are clearly there, they just aren't staying around. So you dont know of alternatives but can safely assume that they exist. And what is the implication of them not staying around ? Are they not staying around because of Dendi ? Just curious.. Surely there was a point to bringing that up. Please do clarify. Again I am in the same boat as some other people here, I dont really care what becomes of Dendi but no one has offered a good enough reason to explain why and in what scenario he should be adjusted/removed that solves any of the identified issues.
I wouldn't say that Dendi is personally driving them off. But the organization will always choose Dendi over anyone else, so when the team can't get results and the players want to change things up, it ultimately means they're the ones leaving the team.
And competitively, Navi probably would have done a lot better if they built a team around some of those players that left.
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I'm looking at the Teams from Changsha Major CIS qualifiers, all the mids are
1. ILTW
2. Iceberg
3. Bzz
4. G
5. Undershock
6. Bobruha
7. GGwpLanaya
Besides me not knowing who the fuck is 6 and 7, i dont know exactly who is better than Dendi there, MAAAAAYBE Iceberg, and that's being pretty nice to him. Undershock is the only potential and he isn't exactly an upgrade.
Seriously, who is supposed to be better, because that's probably where you pick your next mid right?
And VP didn't exactly built the team looking for the next big players... Noone played for Vega for 2 years, Ramzes was boncing left and right before VP, and to be honest, if you ask me, 9pasha is the real star in that team but played for Vega and Polarity (which means he knew lil)
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On March 27 2018 08:43 Faruko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 04:50 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 27 2018 03:42 Racket wrote:On March 27 2018 02:53 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 26 2018 21:20 Faruko wrote:On March 26 2018 05:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 26 2018 04:21 Racket wrote:On March 26 2018 03:43 FreakyDroid wrote:On March 24 2018 18:09 Racket wrote:On March 24 2018 17:40 WolfintheSheep wrote:
[quote]
I think it's a fair question to ask what Dendi is bringing to the table, considering he's been the sole constant in the last 4 years. Even if he's not the problem, he hasn't been the solution either. Duck- has a point. Before the swap NaVi was doing good and getting better. All that wasn't just Rodjer, the team was playing better. They lost their po4 and their captain and now the cores are bad? The problem with Dendi is that no good player or captain wants to join the team because of him. Russian casters and esports figures have been talking about this for a long time. Even NaVi's CEO commented on it: "There is really no trust in Dendi, not only from fans but from players as well. We don’t know what to do in this situation right now.” Duck- has every right to defend Dendi, I understand that, but consider this: NaVi models all their teams around him, he is basically their center piece, so why is he surprised that many are saying that, maybe just maybe, Dendi is the problem? For the record, I dont see him as the sole problem, but I do think he is part of the problem. Its a normal reaction by fans of the team rather than one of their players. Yes Dendi was a beast one time, he got praised for his skill, heck he was even deified by many people. If people accept praise when they are good then by the same principle they should accept being criticized when their skill falls off. No one should be above scrutiny, not even Dendi. Even if all this makes sense, think about this: The moment NaVi loses Dendi, NaVi becomes just another CIS stack. NaVi cannot buy VP, thus they won't let Dendi go. The only way NaVi will let Dendi go, is if they believe they can achieve something without him. Now can you tell how high are the chances of forming a competitive CIS team without Dendi? What other mid is free and better than Dendi? Reso is no midplayer no more. Lets be real, even tho Dendi is not top tier and won't carry you alone to success, there is no other CIS mid available, not G, not fn, not iLTW, that can fit a team and do better, if there were, he would be sucessful already. Meanwhile almost every other top tier team has been investing in unknown players who end up being the stars of the team. because General and Crystallize are know powerhouses which joined NaVi for millions of dollars right? That post is wrong on so many levels is mind blowing Is not like NaVi have not invested in unknown players, is that they need that certain piece of the puzzle (a proper captain) to put the team at a good position again edit: also Sonneiko was unknown. Yes, so the argument that Dendi has no replacement falls a little flat. Or even that he's staying mid because he's the best option. You can try a little harder. At least name players so we can talk about. I mean, I don't know what the CIS ranked ladder looks like? Hell, Crystallize would probably be a better mid player. And frankly, considering that Na'vi keeps losing talented players and/or captains like ArtStyle, Sonneiko and Rodjer, the options were and are clearly there, they just aren't staying around. ArtStyle had quite the chances on NaVi, he wasn't really succesful. Rodjer was all about money and him wanting to leave (I mean if you are playing for say... Liverpool and Real Madrid calls you, would you not go??????? Pretty much same situation with NaVi / VP nowadays). To talk about Sonneiko we must take what we have, NaVi saying he is a great player but not exactly easy to play with, so they tried to make it work (2 times, by the way) and it seems like it just didn't worked out. Is this the full story? who knows, it does looks like nobody rushed to get Sonneiko, SO THERE MIGHT BE SOME KIND OF TRUE IN ALL OF THIS, after all, he is better than most CIS supports, bar Rodjer, which was also part of NaVi.
2016 Na'vi with Sonneiko and ArtSyle was like the last time they were actually competitive.
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Art Style left and didnt played again, probably left to be a coach
one could argue he retired to be VPs coach
so... what can you do about it besides leaving him as a potential coach
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EPT
