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Sad games for the team, the gap between them and OG is huge at the moment.
It seems that this team doesn't and won't have the material of a tier 1 team.
Sadly, pro Dota is not only mechanical skills, or fight reaction skills and reflexes.
What Navi is missing is the understanding of the game. You see OG and it is like the map is their natural habitat, they move with synergy and harmony. And you see Navi like "ooh what a nice place" and suddenly the wolf comes behind the tree and everything is over.
Another thing is that against better teams they usually don't have a plan. They always let the opponent act and then they react. They rarely set the tempo of the game, they always follow the pace of the other team.
Very sad games against OG, they looked like pub stack against pros. And personally I don't see how the major problems they have, will change towards something better.
Just hopes.
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On December 10 2017 18:05 Be_Nice wrote:
Sad games for the team, the gap between them and OG is huge at the moment.
It seems that this team doesn't and won't have the material of a tier 1 team.
Sadly, pro Dota is not only mechanical skills, or fight reaction skills and reflexes.
What Navi is missing is the understanding of the game. You see OG and it is like the map is their natural habitat, they move with synergy and harmony. And you see Navi like "ooh what a nice place" and suddenly the wolf comes behind the tree and everything is over.
Another thing is that against better teams they usually don't have a plan. They always let the opponent act and then they react. They rarely set the tempo of the game, they always follow the pace of the other team.
Very sad games against OG, they looked like pub stack against pros. And personally I don't see how the major problems they have, will change towards something better.
Just hopes.
Is this the same OG from two weeks ago?
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On December 10 2017 18:05 Be_Nice wrote:
Sad games for the team, the gap between them and OG is huge at the moment.
It seems that this team doesn't and won't have the material of a tier 1 team.
Sadly, pro Dota is not only mechanical skills, or fight reaction skills and reflexes.
What Navi is missing is the understanding of the game. You see OG and it is like the map is their natural habitat, they move with synergy and harmony. And you see Navi like "ooh what a nice place" and suddenly the wolf comes behind the tree and everything is over.
Another thing is that against better teams they usually don't have a plan. They always let the opponent act and then they react. They rarely set the tempo of the game, they always follow the pace of the other team.
Very sad games against OG, they looked like pub stack against pros. And personally I don't see how the major problems they have, will change towards something better.
Just hopes.
Over reacting some. It's disappointing cause this was a winnable tournament, but they've gotten a lot better. They beat TNC which are in the grand finals.
Give them more time
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On December 10 2017 21:46 Racket wrote:
Is this the same OG from two weeks ago?
Nope, OG played incredibly well in this tournament. Despite that, Na'Vi could win first game, but OG won with smart strategy (Naga ulti into serpent wards to take racks), after a moment when they were losing the fights.
And in the 2nd game they won with incredibly good support rotations, with an incredible Jerax.
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Honestly I don't really care, I like navi no matter what, totally a fanboy. For me dota is like football, I like watching and playing as a break from the daily routine, so if the reach a tier 1 level I ll be happy, if not I will just support.
And since i dont take decisions  I can give them aaaall the time they need.
I am just surprised how pro players with great skills may have so different level of understanding. And honestly, this is what makes you tier 1 team.
Probably I don't even know how wrong I am since I believe that I am a totally dota noob, but what I feel is that navi have reached their plateau.
I see OG with all these movements around the map and I sincerely envy them. To my eyes they seem like a well calibrated engine while navi is like having the components to build something great but you dont know how to connect the parts.
Sorry for any English mistakes, not my mother tongue.
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Meh this tournament was winnable. Same old drafting mistakes. Rodjer choked in both games too. Oh well good work in the group stages though.
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they lack leadership and discipline to succeed further ... sonneiko is an okay drafter and all but he's no leader ... the fact that Crystallize could fountain dive when tier 2 were still up and fed OG a kill which significantly changed the momentum and tempo of the game said it all imo ... i think Navi plays incredibly well reactionary Dota, they could be falling behind but still manage to win crucial team fights due to their ability to shine , that's something ... but against teams with proper plan and execution, just merely reacting isn't good enough ...
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OG played well this tournament but they weren't that much better than the other teams. OG studied NaVi enough to pick them as opponent, you can see how much they figured NaVi out in their map movements. You don't go as three pulling your offlaner from the lane just for a bounty rune without even wards. You don't pull your carry and your offlaner from lanes and farming just to invade the enemy jungle. They knew NaVi's map movements and timings because they studied them. That is why OG looked so good and NaVi so bad in those two games.
NaVi on the other hand have no knowledge of their own limits. They get wrecked by a hero and they let it through again. They did it last tournament and once again this tournament. They fail to identify what went bad in the prior game.
I might be reading too much into it, but that is how I feel and only they can prove me wrong (I hope they do). All in all I am happy that they are always getting better, sad that they let go of opportunities like this, where there was no actual competition in comparison to Dreamleague.
On December 11 2017 00:03 _Elendil wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2017 21:46 Racket wrote:
Is this the same OG from two weeks ago? Nope, OG played incredibly well in this tournament. Despite that, Na'Vi could win first game, but OG won with smart strategy (Naga ulti into serpent wards to take racks), after a moment when they were losing the fights. And in the 2nd game they won with incredibly good support rotations, with an incredible Jerax.
I know, it was sarcasm.
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On December 11 2017 01:02 Be_Nice wrote:Honestly I don't really care, I like navi no matter what, totally a fanboy. For me dota is like football, I like watching and playing as a break from the daily routine, so if the reach a tier 1 level I ll be happy, if not I will just support. And since i dont take decisions I can give them aaaall the time they need. I am just surprised how pro players with great skills may have so different level of understanding. And honestly, this is what makes you tier 1 team. Probably I don't even know how wrong I am since I believe that I am a totally dota noob, but what I feel is that navi have reached their plateau. I see OG with all these movements around the map and I sincerely envy them. To my eyes they seem like a well calibrated engine while navi is like having the components to build something great but you dont know how to connect the parts. Sorry for any English mistakes, not my mother tongue.
Well, but OG are a well calibrated engine. Na'Vi have a new captain and drafter that's still learning. And they learns. I've seen them winning with smart strategies after having lost lanes or mid game. Simply, OG strategy and support movements were incredibly good and outsmarted then. They will learn from this, and Sonneiko is learning rapidly.
Note that in December they won a tournament and have been top4 in a major and in a minor. In October and Novembre they've been bottom 4. They're improving.
Let's see if they can still improve. But this tournament they did better than Virtus Pro, LGD, LFY... all top 6 at the international. in Dreamleague they beaten Newbee. Last Na'Vi iteration could never do this.
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On December 11 2017 13:15 nayumi wrote:
they lack leadership and discipline to succeed further ... sonneiko is an okay drafter and all but he's no leader ... the fact that Crystallize could fountain dive when tier 2 were still up and fed OG a kill which significantly changed the momentum and tempo of the game said it all imo ... i think Navi plays incredibly well reactionary Dota, they could be falling behind but still manage to win crucial team fights due to their ability to shine , that's something ... but against teams with proper plan and execution, just merely reacting isn't good enough ...
I agree. But if they can study why they lost and learn from it, they could really shine. Crystallize is an incredible player. With just a bit of discipline, he could become a champion. Sonneiko is new to captaining, and he's improving - I've seen Na'Vi winning games that they had lost 3 months ago with diverse strategies and avoiding team fights - let's give them some time. We know from the results they're improving.
We only have to hope they will continue with study and improvements. But the good results (and finally some good money in the pockets - In December only they won 165.000$) can help them with motivation.
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They are already shining and punching above their weight this season
I definitely place them above OG overall even though they lost a series to them
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On December 11 2017 16:47 Racket wrote:OG played well this tournament but they weren't that much better than the other teams. OG studied NaVi enough to pick them as opponent, you can see how much they figured NaVi out in their map movements. You don't go as three pulling your offlaner from the lane just for a bounty rune without even wards. You don't pull your carry and your offlaner from lanes and farming just to invade the enemy jungle. They knew NaVi's map movements and timings because they studied them. That is why OG looked so good and NaVi so bad in those two games. Show nested quote +On December 11 2017 00:03 _Elendil wrote:On December 10 2017 21:46 Racket wrote:
Is this the same OG from two weeks ago? Nope, OG played incredibly well in this tournament. Despite that, Na'Vi could win first game, but OG won with smart strategy (Naga ulti into serpent wards to take racks), after a moment when they were losing the fights. And in the 2nd game they won with incredibly good support rotations, with an incredible Jerax. I know, it was sarcasm.
This, that set of games looked like hard anti strating coming off good that made it look really bad.
The only issue I gathered from that series was that Na'vi has limited depth when it comes to Plan B's which nearly all top teams have. OG is also a generally counter punching/defensive team that is a bad match up for Na'vi's style in general.
They showed glimpses of being able to adjust by using item timings in the first game and they kinda sorta tried it in the second aswell, but generally OG's map movements were really fucking weird unless you factor in that they had near perfect reads on what Na'vi was doing which as smart as OG is you can never perfect that hard on the Fly (no pun intended).
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Any idea on why NaVi won't play starladder?
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On December 19 2017 02:33 Racket wrote:
Any idea on why NaVi won't play starladder?
They're playing ESL one genting qualifiers, starting tomorrow. Probably impossible to play both.
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Russian Federation3336 Posts
Navi direct invite to the next major yay!
Less Navi games, but I'll take games at the major over qualification games (with potential to miss out on the major)
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On December 22 2017 01:41 Bisu-Fan wrote:
Navi direct invite to the next major yay!
Less Navi games, but I'll take games at the major over qualification games (with potential to miss out on the major)
What? Where?
Edit: Bucharest
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Russian Federation3336 Posts
Great series overall from all the boys. we qualifying it's great!!!
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Yep, they did a good job going 5-0 the last five games.
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Next Major invite for NaVi. What a great start in 2018 with the ESL One Katowice 2018.
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EPT
