EPTCloud9 Discussion - Page 62
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Hoenicker
243 Posts
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Piledriver
United States1697 Posts
In any case, go Ehome I guess  . RotK is a likeable player so rooting for him. | ||
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ampson
United States2355 Posts
On August 06 2015 00:40 Piledriver wrote: I think Envy needs to go back to captaincy/drafting. Bone7 just chokes superhard at all stages of a big LAN - Summit, ESL, DAC, TI5 (Summit, DAC as a player, ESL,TI5 as a drafter and captain). Interesting whats gonna happen after the reshuffle. In any case, go Ehome I guess . RotK is a likeable player so rooting for him.I think that EE severely underestimates both his drafting and leadership abilities. It seems like in the past few months he was contented to take a back seat in the team because he thought that they could win with bone7 but he's just too unreliable. I don't know where all of the trust that EE has in bone's skill comes from, but I can't imagine that it's not broken after an abysmal TI5 result. | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
On August 06 2015 00:55 ampson wrote: I think that EE severely underestimates both his drafting and leadership abilities. It seems like in the past few months he was contented to take a back seat in the team because he thought that they could win with bone7 but he's just too unreliable. I don't know where all of the trust that EE has in bone's skill comes from, but I can't imagine that it's not broken after an abysmal TI5 result. I think the change is somewhat along the same idea as the Aui&PLD change. It was not that the previous lineup was bad, in fact their results were very good. However, they had some issues apparently and didn't actually win. So they want to change something. In a way EE's drafting is similar. With his drafting there were good games and bad games, but it was consistently good enough to net c9 all those good finishes from TI4 onwards. However, I don't think one can argue that he/c9 also had blunders in some finals for example as far as drafting goes. And most recently at Summit 3 they had a few games where their draft didn't make any sort of sense. And then when you don't win, you try to make a change. Of course I can't know from here who initiated the change, but in retrospect this TI really was not successful as far as their drafting goes. I don't think at MDL or ESL it was nearly as bad, but a lot of the ideas c9 came with to this TI simply didn't pan out. | ||
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Piledriver
United States1697 Posts
On August 06 2015 01:03 spudde123 wrote: I think the change is somewhat along the same idea as the Aui&PLD change. It was not that the previous lineup was bad, in fact their results were very good. However, they had some issues apparently and didn't actually win. So they want to change something. In a way EE's drafting is similar. With his drafting there were good games and bad games, but it was consistently good enough to net c9 all those good finishes from TI4 onwards. However, I don't think one can argue that he/c9 also had blunders in some finals for example as far as drafting goes. And most recently at Summit 3 they had a few games where their draft didn't make any sort of sense. And then when you don't win, you try to make a change. Of course I can't know from here who initiated the change, but in retrospect this TI really was not successful as far as their drafting goes. I don't think at MDL or ESL it was nearly as bad, but a lot of the ideas c9 came with to this TI simply didn't pan out. Aui must be thanking his stars that he was ejected from this trainwreck. I guess any further speculations on reshuffling, disbanding is moot until the TI comes to a close and we see how Secret/EG end up, but I will take a gander anyway. I suspect that EE's standing as a top tier teammate has gone way down (as compared to the previous TI4), and he probably has fewer top players willing to play with him. If Secret reaches even top 4, I don't think Arteezy would be inclined to join EE anymore, considering how many times EE has spurned him. Secret probably doesnt want him, and neither do EG (since Fear is far more flexible as a carry in terms of the hero pool, capable of playing anything from puck to pugna, and everything in between). I wouldn't be surprised if EE ends up in CoL, or tries to build his own team of up and comers. | ||
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ampson
United States2355 Posts
On August 06 2015 01:45 Piledriver wrote: Aui must be thanking his stars that he was ejected from this trainwreck. I guess any further speculations on reshuffling, disbanding is moot until the TI comes to a close and we see how Secret/EG end up, but I will take a gander anyway. I suspect that EE's standing as a top tier teammate has gone way down (as compared to the previous TI4), and he probably has fewer top players willing to play with him. If Secret reaches even top 4, I don't think Arteezy would be inclined to join EE anymore, considering how many times EE has spurned him. Secret probably doesnt want him, and neither do EG (since Fear is far more flexible as a carry in terms of the hero pool, capable of playing anything from puck to pugna, and everything in between). I wouldn't be surprised if EE ends up in CoL, or tries to build his own team of up and comers. I don't know EE's standing would have gone down after TI. If anything I'd think its gotten better. TI5 pretty much proved that it was EE's drafts and leadership that got C9 to the top tier, and him and Misery were consistently the only bright spots in the team during the actual tournament. As far as the reshuffle goes, I'm personally hoping for Envy to get together a stable NA team where he is the undisputed captain (a part of me hopes for a Secret crash and burn so that RTZ comes on the market). | ||
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bagels21
United States4357 Posts
On August 06 2015 01:45 Piledriver wrote: Aui must be thanking his stars that he was ejected from this trainwreck. I guess any further speculations on reshuffling, disbanding is moot until the TI comes to a close and we see how Secret/EG end up, but I will take a gander anyway. I suspect that EE's standing as a top tier teammate has gone way down (as compared to the previous TI4), and he probably has fewer top players willing to play with him. If Secret reaches even top 4, I don't think Arteezy would be inclined to join EE anymore, considering how many times EE has spurned him. Secret probably doesnt want him, and neither do EG (since Fear is far more flexible as a carry in terms of the hero pool, capable of playing anything from puck to pugna, and everything in between). I wouldn't be surprised if EE ends up in CoL, or tries to build his own team of up and comers. I don't think EE leaves C9, likely if it's up and comers they'll join C9 with EE leading. My dream scenario is EE + RTZ as well, but as Goody likes to harp on, RTZ is basically a 1 now, though a fan can wish that he returns to solo mid while EE plays safelaners that are less carry oriented (i.e. Doom) | ||
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andyrau
13015 Posts
everyone here seems to have a massive kneejerk reaction to them bombing out against vg, whom they've historically had a long losing record against. bone played really poorly this tournament and if he's the one drafting, has performed pretty mediocre on that front as well. that second game was already lost at the fourth pick. notail has also been very underwhelming but this might be due to the food or famine nature of the heroes he plays. misery, ee, and fata have all had consistently good games. I don't really see the need for a massive roster change and I think the issue is more about figuring out how to end games and drafting consistently. | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
On August 06 2015 02:18 andyrau wrote: ee rtz is never going to happen if their respective interviews are believable everyone here seems to have a massive kneejerk reaction to them bombing out against vg, whom they've historically had a long losing record against. bone played really poorly this tournament and if he's the one drafting, has performed pretty mediocre on that front as well. that second game was already lost at the fourth pick. notail has also been very underwhelming but this might be due to the food or famine nature of the heroes he plays. misery, ee, and fata have all had consistently good games. I don't really see the need for a massive roster change and I think the issue is more about figuring out how to end games and drafting consistently. I agree, like I said it's not like the players have a lot of better teams to just jump to. It's essentially EG or Secret and that's it in their region/language. For a lot of them their best bet is probably to stay together, maybe make 1 change and just try to improve. I hate to say it but bone7's performance was overall really poor this TI. He had like one good game the entire event, and that was when he drafted himself 1v1 solo safelane Puck. Also their venture to try bone7 in the drafter's seat didn't really work. If Secret and EG largely stay together, I don't see c9 completely disbanding either. They will make some sort of a change but not huge ones. But if Secret and EG join in the shuffle then of course we may see big changes. | ||
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Piledriver
United States1697 Posts
On August 06 2015 02:18 andyrau wrote: ee rtz is never going to happen if their respective interviews are believable everyone here seems to have a massive kneejerk reaction to them bombing out against vg, whom they've historically had a long losing record against. -snip-. No, its just a reaction to them playing poorly through the entirety of this TI, with the occassional good game. They lost to Secret, LGD, CDEC, VG and Complexity (and dropped game to Na'vi). They have shown occassional flashes of good gameplay, but have performed really poorly in more games than not. Its not just about to whom they lost, but also their gameplay while losing. Their games vs CDEC and Complexity was a joke. | ||
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Xendarii
327 Posts
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andyrau
13015 Posts
On August 06 2015 02:38 Piledriver wrote: No, its just a reaction to them playing poorly through the entirety of this TI, with the occassional good game. They lost to Secret, LGD, CDEC, VG and Complexity (and dropped game to Na'vi). They have shown occassional flashes of good gameplay, but have performed really poorly in more games than not. Its not just about to whom they lost, but also their gameplay while losing. Their games vs CDEC and Complexity was a joke. col's top 6 material according to notail and the rest are easily predictable losses unless you havent been watching eastern dota. not sure why everyone underrates cdec when they've been on even footing with lgd in eastern tournaments recently. only really surprising thing was dropping a game to navi and flat out losing to vg (i expected a 2-1 or a 2-0 win based on recent vg results), but when you draft that poorly in your second game there's nothing to be said tbh | ||
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Piledriver
United States1697 Posts
On August 06 2015 03:04 andyrau wrote: col's top 6 material according to notail and the rest are easily predictable losses unless you havent been watching eastern dota. not sure why everyone underrates cdec when they've been on even footing with lgd in eastern tournaments recently. only really surprising thing was dropping a game to navi and flat out losing to vg (i expected a 2-1 or a 2-0 win based on recent vg results), but when you draft that poorly in your second game there's nothing to be said tbh .... We are talking about the International. You know, the 18 million dollar tournament where teams are supposed to bring their absolute A game, and play their hearts out. The tournament which produces major upsets and teams exhibiting character, top notch teamwork and strength in the face of intense pressure. The tournament where Phoenix played exhilarating Dota to eliminate Empire, where Liquid beat a pretty strong LGD on the back of Bulba's clockwerk, where Na'Vi learnt how to counter Chinese efficiency dota in the middle of TI2. C9 did none of those things, and played absolutely pedestrian DotA. They played a few levels below their past performances. This is not the same C9 that finished 3rd at MDL, or even 5-6th at DAC. They performed like a Tier 3 team. Also we are in C9 discussion thread, not in the betting and bracket prediction thread. Here we discuss about the performance and the potential of the team, the players - not probabilities of win/loss and statistics. If your response to all of that is "All of this is expected based on past statistics", then, we might as well not play out the tournament. Lets just cancel all the games and hand the trophy to CDEC/LGD/whoever it is has the maximum probability of winning. | ||
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andyrau
13015 Posts
On August 06 2015 03:43 Piledriver wrote: .... We are talking about the International. You know, the 18 million dollar tournament where teams are supposed to bring their absolute A game, and play their hearts out. The tournament which produces major upsets and teams exhibiting character, top notch teamwork and strength in the face of intense pressure. The tournament where Phoenix played exhilarating Dota to eliminate Empire, where Liquid beat a pretty strong LGD on the back of Bulba's clockwerk, where Na'Vi learnt how to counter Chinese efficiency dota in the middle of TI2. C9 did none of those things, and played absolutely pedestrian DotA. They played a few levels below their past performances. This is not the same C9 that finished 3rd at MDL, or even 5-6th at DAC. They performed like a Tier 3 team. Also we are in C9 discussion thread, not in the betting and bracket prediction thread. Here we discuss about the performance and the potential of the team, the players - not probabilities of win/loss and statistics. If your response to all of that is "All of this is expected based on past statistics", then, we might as well not play out the tournament. Lets just cancel all the games and hand the trophy to CDEC/LGD/whoever it is has the maximum probability of winning. well i mean for all of the prose and flowery verbiage in your unnecessary soliloquy the discussion is still centered around how well we expected this team to do. i'd put their performance at t1.5 this tournament and you're being melodramatic. i get that you're a fan but realistically you're putting the team up against lgd, cdec, and secret, the teams coming in with the best recent records in their region. would you really say they had a 60-40 chance of winning those matchups? 50-50 is already being generous. everyone says that they've lost the trademark c9 flair but tbf they've picked a lot of c9-y heroes throughout their stages. gyro wisp are comfort picks (for a lot of teams really), beastmaster and dk for fata in several games, pugna and bane, batrider, lc and prophet are all classically weird c9 picks. i agree that some of the magic is lost but I'm not even sure what that actually means. i like c9 and the players on the team. yea, they underperformed slightly but given the bracket matchups (and their awful drafting) I'm not surprised they ended up 'bombing' out at 9-12. realistically the only games they shouldn't have lost on paper was that one game against navi, and the two games against coL. i cheer for c9 because they give us wonky strats, big plays, and games that are nuts, win or lose. and on that front they delivered. | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
On August 06 2015 04:53 andyrau wrote: everyone says that they've lost the trademark c9 flair but tbf they've picked a lot of c9-y heroes throughout their stages. gyro wisp are comfort picks (for a lot of teams really), beastmaster and dk for fata in several games, pugna and bane, batrider, lc and prophet are all classically weird c9 picks. Some of their drafts had sort of signature heroes, but a lot of the time the way the lineup as a whole worked was imo very uncharacteristic c9. In a bunch of games, even with Wisp, they were in a position where they could only 5 man. Enemy had far better farming tools and pickoff potential. The 3 Beastmaster games they played were very signature c9 as a whole though. Also after bone7 started drafting pretty brute force push seems to have become something he turns to, it has worked at times but at least from my perspective it's not really what c9 is known for either. I suppose the impression may come more from how the actual games played out due to the drafts and how they interact, rather than c9 heroes all the time being uncharacteristic on their own. And also pretty often when all you can do is 5 man and if you screw up once you are pretty much done and you just wait a slow death, the game is going to look really bad even though it mostly has to do with the lineup. For example imo the coL games in group stage were ones that didn't look good at all, but it was mostly due to how the drafts worked. Games were really hard to play for c9 and easy for coL. Against CDEC similar story in the sense that in both games once c9 fell behind it was not like there was much they can do. Though of course should they have fallen behind at least in g2 is another question, but still. | ||
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m0ck
4194 Posts
There has certainly been individual errors (bone7 had both gamelosing mistakes and itembuys) but the supports also did not manage to transform map dominance into a vision advantage (something that imo is a big part of their inability of closing out games). Envy is not a strong mechanical player (take a look at his lasthitting, it's just not up to par). FATA could not keep up his dominant play from the last three months. Even so, C9 is just one part of the general european dota meltdown. The EU teams seem to be focusing to heavily on winning the early game, when matches seem to be won by whoever is stronger in the lategame. Ask Team Secret how easy it is to make a solid draft ^^ | ||
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Liebig
France738 Posts
ee singsing speculation ? | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
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Liebig
France738 Posts
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Faruko
Chile34171 Posts
c9 Bangfish  | ||
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