|
On August 05 2015 14:11 DucK- wrote:
I remember Goody going all about how C9's gonna do well etc in the Navi thread. Sad that Navi didn't do better though :\ I'd say though that Navi could leave TI5 with their heads held high, whereas C9 should just crumble in shame.
C9 didn't look like C9 at all. Zero identity.
Sadly I agree with this. I don't know what is the reason, but c9 isn't really the c9 we knew anymore. They hardly separate themselves from the pack with their unique style.
As far as the previous changes go, hindsight is always funny. If the team felt that they had some issues and it just wasn't going to get better, taking the chance and switching this up can be for the good. We won't know what would have happened if the previous team stayed together, but it seems that for whatever reason ingame the new lineup didn't mesh as well.
Interesting to see what will happen to the team after TI. I expect changes but rather impossible to say what sort of changes without knowing how the players feel at all.
|
On August 05 2015 17:06 Kabras wrote:
goodbye fata and notail. or goodbye team
99 % sure that Misery will leave the team as well.
|
On August 05 2015 18:05 Xendarii wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2015 17:06 Kabras wrote:
goodbye fata and notail. or goodbye team 99 % sure that Misery will leave the team as well.
Why? At least based on play I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the c9 guys want to play with Misery. And it's not like Misery can just easily join better players unless he gets asked to Secret or something.
In general the first thing to consider as far as team changes go here is probably what happens with EG and Secret and whether they want any of the c9 players. I think all of c9 probably would be quite willing to consider jumping ship to those teams rather than try to make a new team of their own.
|
Misery is the best player on C9. He frankly deserves better than C9. C9 isn't going to be winning big
|
I can't believe they throw 1. game vs VG that hard. Hope this team will survive...
|
I always cringe a bit with "deserves better". If you don't captain your own team, you are always going to be at the mercy of others and some luck. I agree Misery often performs very well, and he probably could do a fine job on Secret for example, but why would they pick him up over their current players?
It's the same shit with some people memeing how this or that player "deserve a better captain". After TI4 c9 has had consistently very good placings in major tournaments. If you want to "get a better captain" in EU/NA you pretty much have to go to Secret or EG. For whatever reason their team crumbled towards the end, and also their attempt to switch drafters from EE to bone7 didn't really work as far as this TI goes.
|
On August 05 2015 18:18 spudde123 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2015 18:05 Xendarii wrote:On August 05 2015 17:06 Kabras wrote:
goodbye fata and notail. or goodbye team 99 % sure that Misery will leave the team as well. Why? At least based on play I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the c9 guys want to play with Misery. And it's not like Misery can just easily join better players unless he gets asked to Secret or something. In general the first thing to consider as far as team changes go here is probably what happens with EG and Secret and whether they want any of the c9 players. I think all of c9 probably would be quite willing to consider jumping ship to those teams rather than try to make a new team of their own.
He didn't seem to be that eager to stay with C9 in the interviews he did - or, more precisely, it felt like he's open to something new. I mean, I don't want him to leave, I'll always root for the team he's part of anyway (unless it's with specific other players) and I like C9, but history tells lessons and if Secret proceeds to disappoint, I could see them going for some roster changes before the majors start - and Misery is certainly good enough for them.
|
I don't think replacing any particular player just based on "plays" alone will make a difference. Whoever makes their mid/lategame decisions is the one they should consider kicking. Just look at game 1 vs Vici last night for a typical game of c9. Good early/early midgame, followed by some really shitty decisions (some misplays aswell, but with better team decisionmaking, that woudn't have mattered). It just feels like c9 tries really, really hard to lose come midgame. Sometimes they make really good strategic decisions to turn the game in their favour (sneak rosh or something like that), but most of the time it's just really awful. With lategame decisionmaking like they have now, c9 could never win TI5 regardless of who played on their team. Watching c9 just hurts my brain.
|
To be honest, I'm hoping that C9 is disbanding, my heart can't bear all this disappointment anymore. Just wanna keep the good memories and see them get a fresh start each on their own way.
|
On August 05 2015 20:40 BigO wrote:
I don't think replacing any particular player just based on "plays" alone will make a difference. Whoever makes their mid/lategame decisions is the one they should consider kicking. Just look at game 1 vs Vici last night for a typical game of c9. Good early/early midgame, followed by some really shitty decisions (some misplays aswell, but with better team decisionmaking, that woudn't have mattered). It just feels like c9 tries really, really hard to lose come midgame. Sometimes they make really good strategic decisions to turn the game in their favour (sneak rosh or something like that), but most of the time it's just really awful. With lategame decisionmaking like they have now, c9 could never win TI5 regardless of who played on their team. Watching c9 just hurts my brain.
What decisions are you talking about? I didn't see the game and watched just glimpses from a vod, but from what I saw the game started first turning in that mid t2 push. Fata got comboed from 100 to 0 in an instant. Then c9 stayed, I think they could have fought, but then bone lets his egg get stolen, which turns the fight. That's not a decision making error, that's just a screw up on bone's part. And for whatever reason bone had a soul booster. Going for linkens would at least give the guy who VG go on get a chance to pop his BKB before the lift, or even going aghs would give him a chance to save the guy who they try to burst. And then as far as I saw in later fights taking those was incredibly hard for c9. VG can burst either EE or Fata from 100 to 0 with ease, and after that c9 can't win the fight anymore.
Imo "mid/lategame decisions" being c9's weakness compared to other teams is not at all the entire story. I don't mean that it is their strength at all. However, if you look at a lot of the games they lose, it's not mid or lategame they lose, it's early game or right in the first midgame fights. The same thing even with the old lineup when they played against EG in all those finals. It was not lategame they lost, back then they often had incredibly weak early games. A lot of their biggest "throws" also are hardly related to some big "decisions", but instead how they break high ground. For whatever reason they've continued to struggle with that with this lineup. But that said in this TI I don't think they lost a game due to high grounding errors except for LGD g1.
Also I find your "kicking logic" rather strange. If the team is together for 8 months, one would think that they try to find the person who can make whatever calls need to be made the best. If they screw up, they try to understand what they did wrong and improve. Noone in any team is doing wrong calls alone and everyone else is just blindly listening to him. If they continue to struggle with something, to me it suggests that the team as a whole lacks some understanding of how to play certain situations, or that they have something internally wrong that screws up their mentality and they can't say calm and think properly in the middle of the game.
|
On August 05 2015 21:04 spudde123 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2015 20:40 BigO wrote:
I don't think replacing any particular player just based on "plays" alone will make a difference. Whoever makes their mid/lategame decisions is the one they should consider kicking. Just look at game 1 vs Vici last night for a typical game of c9. Good early/early midgame, followed by some really shitty decisions (some misplays aswell, but with better team decisionmaking, that woudn't have mattered). It just feels like c9 tries really, really hard to lose come midgame. Sometimes they make really good strategic decisions to turn the game in their favour (sneak rosh or something like that), but most of the time it's just really awful. With lategame decisionmaking like they have now, c9 could never win TI5 regardless of who played on their team. Watching c9 just hurts my brain. What decisions are you talking about? I didn't see the game and watched just glimpses from a vod, but from what I saw the game started first turning in that mid t2 push. Fata got comboed from 100 to 0 in an instant. Then c9 stayed, I think they could have fought, but then bone lets his egg get stolen, which turns the fight. That's not a decision making error, that's just a screw up on bone's part. And for whatever reason bone had a soul booster. Going for linkens would at least give the guy who VG go on get a chance to pop his BKB before the lift, or even going aghs would give him a chance to save the guy who they try to burst. And then as far as I saw in later fights taking those was incredibly hard for c9. VG can burst either EE or Fata from 100 to 0 with ease, and after that c9 can't win the fight anymore. Imo "mid/lategame decisions" being c9's weakness compared to other teams is not at all the entire story. I don't mean that it is their strength at all. However, if you look at a lot of the games they lose, it's not mid or lategame they lose, it's early game or right in the first midgame fights. The same thing even with the old lineup when they played against EG in all those finals. It was not lategame they lost, back then they often had incredibly weak early games. A lot of their biggest "throws" also are hardly related to some big "decisions", but instead how they break high ground. For whatever reason they've continued to struggle with that with this lineup. But that said in this TI I don't think they lost a game due to high grounding errors except for LGD g1. Also I find your "kicking logic" rather strange. If the team is together for 8 months, one would think that they try to find the person who can make whatever calls need to be made the best. If they screw up, they try to understand what they did wrong and improve. Noone in any team is doing wrong calls alone and everyone else is just blindly listening to him. If they continue to struggle with something, to me it suggests that the team as a whole lacks some understanding of how to play certain situations, or that they have something internally wrong that screws up their mentality and they can't say calm and think properly in the middle of the game.
I am from my cell now so i cant give the precise timings, but at some point c9 were 1 racks up, aegis on FATA, bkbs on the three cores, while spec had only radiance and a vitality booster, FATA was like 5k ahead on networth and EE was second with a good margin. At this point if you 5 man push with FATA ahead, with wisp and sunray behind him you just cant focus him, if you blow your cooldowns on him thats a free racks because when he is back after aegis and with bkb up they simply cant scratch him. And its not like they could bypass him and initiate a fight with bkb Phoenix and gyro on the back. Even with perfect execution from VG and poor execution from c9 worst case scenario you get a tier 3 and relocate a core out, trapping the enemy in their base for some minutes.
Instead they went back to farm, VG smokes and kills ee and notail, spec starts to leap frog his farm thanks to the kills and space c9 is giving, fata loses aegis without doing anything. After that it was just a feeding fest and spec that had no game impact for 35 to 40 minutes just wrecks then.
As a c9 fan i hope they disband, bone7 doesnt cut it at this level of dota, he is just not good enough, not even gonna discuss that second game draft. EE and notail lack synergy. FATA make some very bad midfight decisions and quite frankly i cant see him as a tier one mid if you compare to others at this TI outside of 1 or 2 heroes he is very good at.
I think c9 should keep EE and start a whole new team taking advantage of his marketing qualities with the community, also to provide experience to new players. Misery would be welcome, i think he was the best of then at this TI, but i dont think he wants to continue.
I dont see c9 winning any major tournament with this formation on, not now, not ever.
|
On August 05 2015 21:04 spudde123 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2015 20:40 BigO wrote:
I don't think replacing any particular player just based on "plays" alone will make a difference. Whoever makes their mid/lategame decisions is the one they should consider kicking. Just look at game 1 vs Vici last night for a typical game of c9. Good early/early midgame, followed by some really shitty decisions (some misplays aswell, but with better team decisionmaking, that woudn't have mattered). It just feels like c9 tries really, really hard to lose come midgame. Sometimes they make really good strategic decisions to turn the game in their favour (sneak rosh or something like that), but most of the time it's just really awful. With lategame decisionmaking like they have now, c9 could never win TI5 regardless of who played on their team. Watching c9 just hurts my brain. What decisions are you talking about? I didn't see the game and watched just glimpses from a vod, but from what I saw the game started first turning in that mid t2 push. Fata got comboed from 100 to 0 in an instant. Then c9 stayed, I think they could have fought, but then bone lets his egg get stolen, which turns the fight. That's not a decision making error, that's just a screw up on bone's part. And for whatever reason bone had a soul booster. Going for linkens would at least give the guy who VG go on get a chance to pop his BKB before the lift, or even going aghs would give him a chance to save the guy who they try to burst. And then as far as I saw in later fights taking those was incredibly hard for c9. VG can burst either EE or Fata from 100 to 0 with ease, and after that c9 can't win the fight anymore. Imo "mid/lategame decisions" being c9's weakness compared to other teams is not at all the entire story. I don't mean that it is their strength at all. However, if you look at a lot of the games they lose, it's not mid or lategame they lose, it's early game or right in the first midgame fights. The same thing even with the old lineup when they played against EG in all those finals. It was not lategame they lost, back then they often had incredibly weak early games. A lot of their biggest "throws" also are hardly related to some big "decisions", but instead how they break high ground. For whatever reason they've continued to struggle with that with this lineup. But that said in this TI I don't think they lost a game due to high grounding errors except for LGD g1. Also I find your "kicking logic" rather strange. If the team is together for 8 months, one would think that they try to find the person who can make whatever calls need to be made the best. If they screw up, they try to understand what they did wrong and improve. Noone in any team is doing wrong calls alone and everyone else is just blindly listening to him. If they continue to struggle with something, to me it suggests that the team as a whole lacks some understanding of how to play certain situations, or that they have something internally wrong that screws up their mentality and they can't say calm and think properly in the middle of the game.
The error in that midfight was being there in the first place, they could have easily taken a rather uncontested rosh with some patience then did the same thing with an aegis on SF. They could have just ended the game with that, since they can't blow up SF like that twice. Also, when they got the aegis after SF respawned, they decided to split up instead of just pushing (I guess they have become really afraid of going highground). That aegis was their timing and they did not use it, thus it being a decisionmaking problem.
I don't watch all c9's games, but what i meant was that with lategame decisionmaking like that, they can't win a TI. To be TI5 (not TI4) winning material, you also need to be able to make good/great decisions in the lategame, that is something c9 lacks right now. Breaking highground requires some big decisions as to how you approach it, c9 seems to just be afraid. Which is something other teams know and can use against them.
|
On August 05 2015 22:07 thiagoop wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2015 21:04 spudde123 wrote:On August 05 2015 20:40 BigO wrote:
I don't think replacing any particular player just based on "plays" alone will make a difference. Whoever makes their mid/lategame decisions is the one they should consider kicking. Just look at game 1 vs Vici last night for a typical game of c9. Good early/early midgame, followed by some really shitty decisions (some misplays aswell, but with better team decisionmaking, that woudn't have mattered). It just feels like c9 tries really, really hard to lose come midgame. Sometimes they make really good strategic decisions to turn the game in their favour (sneak rosh or something like that), but most of the time it's just really awful. With lategame decisionmaking like they have now, c9 could never win TI5 regardless of who played on their team. Watching c9 just hurts my brain. What decisions are you talking about? I didn't see the game and watched just glimpses from a vod, but from what I saw the game started first turning in that mid t2 push. Fata got comboed from 100 to 0 in an instant. Then c9 stayed, I think they could have fought, but then bone lets his egg get stolen, which turns the fight. That's not a decision making error, that's just a screw up on bone's part. And for whatever reason bone had a soul booster. Going for linkens would at least give the guy who VG go on get a chance to pop his BKB before the lift, or even going aghs would give him a chance to save the guy who they try to burst. And then as far as I saw in later fights taking those was incredibly hard for c9. VG can burst either EE or Fata from 100 to 0 with ease, and after that c9 can't win the fight anymore. Imo "mid/lategame decisions" being c9's weakness compared to other teams is not at all the entire story. I don't mean that it is their strength at all. However, if you look at a lot of the games they lose, it's not mid or lategame they lose, it's early game or right in the first midgame fights. The same thing even with the old lineup when they played against EG in all those finals. It was not lategame they lost, back then they often had incredibly weak early games. A lot of their biggest "throws" also are hardly related to some big "decisions", but instead how they break high ground. For whatever reason they've continued to struggle with that with this lineup. But that said in this TI I don't think they lost a game due to high grounding errors except for LGD g1. Also I find your "kicking logic" rather strange. If the team is together for 8 months, one would think that they try to find the person who can make whatever calls need to be made the best. If they screw up, they try to understand what they did wrong and improve. Noone in any team is doing wrong calls alone and everyone else is just blindly listening to him. If they continue to struggle with something, to me it suggests that the team as a whole lacks some understanding of how to play certain situations, or that they have something internally wrong that screws up their mentality and they can't say calm and think properly in the middle of the game. I am from my cell now so i cant give the precise timings, but at some point c9 were 1 racks up, aegis on FATA, bkbs on the three cores, while spec had only radiance and a vitality booster, FATA was like 5k ahead on networth and EE was second with a good margin. At this point if you 5 man push with FATA ahead, with wisp and sunray behind him you just cant focus him, if you blow your cooldowns on him thats a free racks because when he is back after aegis and with bkb up they simply cant scratch him. And its not like they could bypass him and initiate a fight with bkb Phoenix and gyro on the back. Even with perfect execution from VG and poor execution from c9 worst case scenario you get a tier 3 and relocate a core out, trapping the enemy in their base for some minutes. Instead they went back to farm, VG smokes and kills ee and notail, spec starts to leap frog his farm thanks to the kills and space c9 is giving, fata loses aegis without doing anything. After that it was just a feeding fest and spec that had no game impact for 35 to 40 minutes just wrecks then. As a c9 fan i hope they disband, bone7 doesnt cut it at this level of dota, he is just not good enough, not even gonna discuss that second game draft. EE and notail lack synergy. FATA make some very bad midfight decisions and quite frankly i cant see him as a tier one mid if you compare to others at this TI outside of 1 or 2 heroes he is very good at. I think c9 should keep EE and start a whole new team taking advantage of his marketing qualities with the community, also to provide experience to new players. Misery would be welcome, i think he was the best of then at this TI, but i dont think he wants to continue. I dont see c9 winning any major tournament with this formation on, not now, not ever.
don't worry, chances are EE is the only player left. Maybe bone remains, I don't think any of the rest of them will stay.
I think you're a bit too harsh on the players. The team just lacked synergy, but yes I do agree with your overall assessment of the game. C9 went the opposite direction they usually play and was extremely safe. They usually fuck up going high ground and doing yoloing shit but this time they literally were too scared of going high ground and wasted 2 straight aegises. It was frankly stupid. They also should have take mid t2 at the same time they were raxing top but were again too scared. Whatever, it's all over now
|
On August 05 2015 22:08 BigO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2015 21:04 spudde123 wrote:On August 05 2015 20:40 BigO wrote:
I don't think replacing any particular player just based on "plays" alone will make a difference. Whoever makes their mid/lategame decisions is the one they should consider kicking. Just look at game 1 vs Vici last night for a typical game of c9. Good early/early midgame, followed by some really shitty decisions (some misplays aswell, but with better team decisionmaking, that woudn't have mattered). It just feels like c9 tries really, really hard to lose come midgame. Sometimes they make really good strategic decisions to turn the game in their favour (sneak rosh or something like that), but most of the time it's just really awful. With lategame decisionmaking like they have now, c9 could never win TI5 regardless of who played on their team. Watching c9 just hurts my brain. What decisions are you talking about? I didn't see the game and watched just glimpses from a vod, but from what I saw the game started first turning in that mid t2 push. Fata got comboed from 100 to 0 in an instant. Then c9 stayed, I think they could have fought, but then bone lets his egg get stolen, which turns the fight. That's not a decision making error, that's just a screw up on bone's part. And for whatever reason bone had a soul booster. Going for linkens would at least give the guy who VG go on get a chance to pop his BKB before the lift, or even going aghs would give him a chance to save the guy who they try to burst. And then as far as I saw in later fights taking those was incredibly hard for c9. VG can burst either EE or Fata from 100 to 0 with ease, and after that c9 can't win the fight anymore. Imo "mid/lategame decisions" being c9's weakness compared to other teams is not at all the entire story. I don't mean that it is their strength at all. However, if you look at a lot of the games they lose, it's not mid or lategame they lose, it's early game or right in the first midgame fights. The same thing even with the old lineup when they played against EG in all those finals. It was not lategame they lost, back then they often had incredibly weak early games. A lot of their biggest "throws" also are hardly related to some big "decisions", but instead how they break high ground. For whatever reason they've continued to struggle with that with this lineup. But that said in this TI I don't think they lost a game due to high grounding errors except for LGD g1. Also I find your "kicking logic" rather strange. If the team is together for 8 months, one would think that they try to find the person who can make whatever calls need to be made the best. If they screw up, they try to understand what they did wrong and improve. Noone in any team is doing wrong calls alone and everyone else is just blindly listening to him. If they continue to struggle with something, to me it suggests that the team as a whole lacks some understanding of how to play certain situations, or that they have something internally wrong that screws up their mentality and they can't say calm and think properly in the middle of the game. The error in that midfight was being there in the first place, they could have easily taken a rather uncontested rosh with some patience then did the same thing with an aegis on SF. They could have just ended the game with that, since they can't blow up SF like that twice. Also, when they got the aegis after SF respawned, they decided to split up instead of just pushing (I guess they have become really afraid of going highground). That aegis was their timing and they did not use it, thus it being a decisionmaking problem. I don't watch all c9's games, but what i meant was that with lategame decisionmaking like that, they can't win a TI. To be TI5 (not TI4) winning material, you also need to be able to make good/great decisions in the lategame, that is something c9 lacks right now. Breaking highground requires some big decisions as to how you approach it, c9 seems to just be afraid. Which is something other teams know and can use against them.
it's like spudde said above; C9's biggest throws have been when they go highground, so they decided to take the methodical Chinese approach; except they didn't really know how about to do it.
|
On August 05 2015 22:12 bagels21 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2015 22:07 thiagoop wrote:On August 05 2015 21:04 spudde123 wrote:On August 05 2015 20:40 BigO wrote:
I don't think replacing any particular player just based on "plays" alone will make a difference. Whoever makes their mid/lategame decisions is the one they should consider kicking. Just look at game 1 vs Vici last night for a typical game of c9. Good early/early midgame, followed by some really shitty decisions (some misplays aswell, but with better team decisionmaking, that woudn't have mattered). It just feels like c9 tries really, really hard to lose come midgame. Sometimes they make really good strategic decisions to turn the game in their favour (sneak rosh or something like that), but most of the time it's just really awful. With lategame decisionmaking like they have now, c9 could never win TI5 regardless of who played on their team. Watching c9 just hurts my brain. What decisions are you talking about? I didn't see the game and watched just glimpses from a vod, but from what I saw the game started first turning in that mid t2 push. Fata got comboed from 100 to 0 in an instant. Then c9 stayed, I think they could have fought, but then bone lets his egg get stolen, which turns the fight. That's not a decision making error, that's just a screw up on bone's part. And for whatever reason bone had a soul booster. Going for linkens would at least give the guy who VG go on get a chance to pop his BKB before the lift, or even going aghs would give him a chance to save the guy who they try to burst. And then as far as I saw in later fights taking those was incredibly hard for c9. VG can burst either EE or Fata from 100 to 0 with ease, and after that c9 can't win the fight anymore. Imo "mid/lategame decisions" being c9's weakness compared to other teams is not at all the entire story. I don't mean that it is their strength at all. However, if you look at a lot of the games they lose, it's not mid or lategame they lose, it's early game or right in the first midgame fights. The same thing even with the old lineup when they played against EG in all those finals. It was not lategame they lost, back then they often had incredibly weak early games. A lot of their biggest "throws" also are hardly related to some big "decisions", but instead how they break high ground. For whatever reason they've continued to struggle with that with this lineup. But that said in this TI I don't think they lost a game due to high grounding errors except for LGD g1. Also I find your "kicking logic" rather strange. If the team is together for 8 months, one would think that they try to find the person who can make whatever calls need to be made the best. If they screw up, they try to understand what they did wrong and improve. Noone in any team is doing wrong calls alone and everyone else is just blindly listening to him. If they continue to struggle with something, to me it suggests that the team as a whole lacks some understanding of how to play certain situations, or that they have something internally wrong that screws up their mentality and they can't say calm and think properly in the middle of the game. I am from my cell now so i cant give the precise timings, but at some point c9 were 1 racks up, aegis on FATA, bkbs on the three cores, while spec had only radiance and a vitality booster, FATA was like 5k ahead on networth and EE was second with a good margin. At this point if you 5 man push with FATA ahead, with wisp and sunray behind him you just cant focus him, if you blow your cooldowns on him thats a free racks because when he is back after aegis and with bkb up they simply cant scratch him. And its not like they could bypass him and initiate a fight with bkb Phoenix and gyro on the back. Even with perfect execution from VG and poor execution from c9 worst case scenario you get a tier 3 and relocate a core out, trapping the enemy in their base for some minutes. Instead they went back to farm, VG smokes and kills ee and notail, spec starts to leap frog his farm thanks to the kills and space c9 is giving, fata loses aegis without doing anything. After that it was just a feeding fest and spec that had no game impact for 35 to 40 minutes just wrecks then. As a c9 fan i hope they disband, bone7 doesnt cut it at this level of dota, he is just not good enough, not even gonna discuss that second game draft. EE and notail lack synergy. FATA make some very bad midfight decisions and quite frankly i cant see him as a tier one mid if you compare to others at this TI outside of 1 or 2 heroes he is very good at. I think c9 should keep EE and start a whole new team taking advantage of his marketing qualities with the community, also to provide experience to new players. Misery would be welcome, i think he was the best of then at this TI, but i dont think he wants to continue. I dont see c9 winning any major tournament with this formation on, not now, not ever. don't worry, chances are EE is the only player left. Maybe bone remains, I don't think any of the rest of them will stay.
I hope bone7 doesnt remain, he is a serious liability as a player, not mention his drafts are the worst from any top 20 team. Either let EE draft or get a upcoming who can draft.
|
On August 05 2015 22:17 bagels21 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2015 22:08 BigO wrote:On August 05 2015 21:04 spudde123 wrote:On August 05 2015 20:40 BigO wrote:
I don't think replacing any particular player just based on "plays" alone will make a difference. Whoever makes their mid/lategame decisions is the one they should consider kicking. Just look at game 1 vs Vici last night for a typical game of c9. Good early/early midgame, followed by some really shitty decisions (some misplays aswell, but with better team decisionmaking, that woudn't have mattered). It just feels like c9 tries really, really hard to lose come midgame. Sometimes they make really good strategic decisions to turn the game in their favour (sneak rosh or something like that), but most of the time it's just really awful. With lategame decisionmaking like they have now, c9 could never win TI5 regardless of who played on their team. Watching c9 just hurts my brain. What decisions are you talking about? I didn't see the game and watched just glimpses from a vod, but from what I saw the game started first turning in that mid t2 push. Fata got comboed from 100 to 0 in an instant. Then c9 stayed, I think they could have fought, but then bone lets his egg get stolen, which turns the fight. That's not a decision making error, that's just a screw up on bone's part. And for whatever reason bone had a soul booster. Going for linkens would at least give the guy who VG go on get a chance to pop his BKB before the lift, or even going aghs would give him a chance to save the guy who they try to burst. And then as far as I saw in later fights taking those was incredibly hard for c9. VG can burst either EE or Fata from 100 to 0 with ease, and after that c9 can't win the fight anymore. Imo "mid/lategame decisions" being c9's weakness compared to other teams is not at all the entire story. I don't mean that it is their strength at all. However, if you look at a lot of the games they lose, it's not mid or lategame they lose, it's early game or right in the first midgame fights. The same thing even with the old lineup when they played against EG in all those finals. It was not lategame they lost, back then they often had incredibly weak early games. A lot of their biggest "throws" also are hardly related to some big "decisions", but instead how they break high ground. For whatever reason they've continued to struggle with that with this lineup. But that said in this TI I don't think they lost a game due to high grounding errors except for LGD g1. Also I find your "kicking logic" rather strange. If the team is together for 8 months, one would think that they try to find the person who can make whatever calls need to be made the best. If they screw up, they try to understand what they did wrong and improve. Noone in any team is doing wrong calls alone and everyone else is just blindly listening to him. If they continue to struggle with something, to me it suggests that the team as a whole lacks some understanding of how to play certain situations, or that they have something internally wrong that screws up their mentality and they can't say calm and think properly in the middle of the game. The error in that midfight was being there in the first place, they could have easily taken a rather uncontested rosh with some patience then did the same thing with an aegis on SF. They could have just ended the game with that, since they can't blow up SF like that twice. Also, when they got the aegis after SF respawned, they decided to split up instead of just pushing (I guess they have become really afraid of going highground). That aegis was their timing and they did not use it, thus it being a decisionmaking problem. I don't watch all c9's games, but what i meant was that with lategame decisionmaking like that, they can't win a TI. To be TI5 (not TI4) winning material, you also need to be able to make good/great decisions in the lategame, that is something c9 lacks right now. Breaking highground requires some big decisions as to how you approach it, c9 seems to just be afraid. Which is something other teams know and can use against them. it's like spudde said above; C9's biggest throws have been when they go highground, so they decided to take the methodical Chinese approach; except they didn't really know how about to do it.
So in other words, I am not wrong when I say it's a decision making issue from them. But I mean, it's all rather irrelevant now since they are out and obviously were not TI5 champion material.
|
On August 05 2015 22:17 thiagoop wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2015 22:12 bagels21 wrote:On August 05 2015 22:07 thiagoop wrote:On August 05 2015 21:04 spudde123 wrote:On August 05 2015 20:40 BigO wrote:
I don't think replacing any particular player just based on "plays" alone will make a difference. Whoever makes their mid/lategame decisions is the one they should consider kicking. Just look at game 1 vs Vici last night for a typical game of c9. Good early/early midgame, followed by some really shitty decisions (some misplays aswell, but with better team decisionmaking, that woudn't have mattered). It just feels like c9 tries really, really hard to lose come midgame. Sometimes they make really good strategic decisions to turn the game in their favour (sneak rosh or something like that), but most of the time it's just really awful. With lategame decisionmaking like they have now, c9 could never win TI5 regardless of who played on their team. Watching c9 just hurts my brain. What decisions are you talking about? I didn't see the game and watched just glimpses from a vod, but from what I saw the game started first turning in that mid t2 push. Fata got comboed from 100 to 0 in an instant. Then c9 stayed, I think they could have fought, but then bone lets his egg get stolen, which turns the fight. That's not a decision making error, that's just a screw up on bone's part. And for whatever reason bone had a soul booster. Going for linkens would at least give the guy who VG go on get a chance to pop his BKB before the lift, or even going aghs would give him a chance to save the guy who they try to burst. And then as far as I saw in later fights taking those was incredibly hard for c9. VG can burst either EE or Fata from 100 to 0 with ease, and after that c9 can't win the fight anymore. Imo "mid/lategame decisions" being c9's weakness compared to other teams is not at all the entire story. I don't mean that it is their strength at all. However, if you look at a lot of the games they lose, it's not mid or lategame they lose, it's early game or right in the first midgame fights. The same thing even with the old lineup when they played against EG in all those finals. It was not lategame they lost, back then they often had incredibly weak early games. A lot of their biggest "throws" also are hardly related to some big "decisions", but instead how they break high ground. For whatever reason they've continued to struggle with that with this lineup. But that said in this TI I don't think they lost a game due to high grounding errors except for LGD g1. Also I find your "kicking logic" rather strange. If the team is together for 8 months, one would think that they try to find the person who can make whatever calls need to be made the best. If they screw up, they try to understand what they did wrong and improve. Noone in any team is doing wrong calls alone and everyone else is just blindly listening to him. If they continue to struggle with something, to me it suggests that the team as a whole lacks some understanding of how to play certain situations, or that they have something internally wrong that screws up their mentality and they can't say calm and think properly in the middle of the game. I am from my cell now so i cant give the precise timings, but at some point c9 were 1 racks up, aegis on FATA, bkbs on the three cores, while spec had only radiance and a vitality booster, FATA was like 5k ahead on networth and EE was second with a good margin. At this point if you 5 man push with FATA ahead, with wisp and sunray behind him you just cant focus him, if you blow your cooldowns on him thats a free racks because when he is back after aegis and with bkb up they simply cant scratch him. And its not like they could bypass him and initiate a fight with bkb Phoenix and gyro on the back. Even with perfect execution from VG and poor execution from c9 worst case scenario you get a tier 3 and relocate a core out, trapping the enemy in their base for some minutes. Instead they went back to farm, VG smokes and kills ee and notail, spec starts to leap frog his farm thanks to the kills and space c9 is giving, fata loses aegis without doing anything. After that it was just a feeding fest and spec that had no game impact for 35 to 40 minutes just wrecks then. As a c9 fan i hope they disband, bone7 doesnt cut it at this level of dota, he is just not good enough, not even gonna discuss that second game draft. EE and notail lack synergy. FATA make some very bad midfight decisions and quite frankly i cant see him as a tier one mid if you compare to others at this TI outside of 1 or 2 heroes he is very good at. I think c9 should keep EE and start a whole new team taking advantage of his marketing qualities with the community, also to provide experience to new players. Misery would be welcome, i think he was the best of then at this TI, but i dont think he wants to continue. I dont see c9 winning any major tournament with this formation on, not now, not ever. don't worry, chances are EE is the only player left. Maybe bone remains, I don't think any of the rest of them will stay. I hope bone7 doesnt remain, he is a serious liability as a player, not mention his drafts are the worst from any top 20 team. Either let EE draft or get a upcoming who can draft.
those are my thoughts exactly (in terms of drafting); the problem is that EE really likes bone and he's the last link to kaipi, which I'm not sure he wants to sever. Their also aren't many better offlaners in the world sadly (who can speak english); though my dream scenario would be to replace bone with iceiceice (if he decides to leave China)
|
On August 05 2015 22:23 BigO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2015 22:17 bagels21 wrote:On August 05 2015 22:08 BigO wrote:On August 05 2015 21:04 spudde123 wrote:On August 05 2015 20:40 BigO wrote:
I don't think replacing any particular player just based on "plays" alone will make a difference. Whoever makes their mid/lategame decisions is the one they should consider kicking. Just look at game 1 vs Vici last night for a typical game of c9. Good early/early midgame, followed by some really shitty decisions (some misplays aswell, but with better team decisionmaking, that woudn't have mattered). It just feels like c9 tries really, really hard to lose come midgame. Sometimes they make really good strategic decisions to turn the game in their favour (sneak rosh or something like that), but most of the time it's just really awful. With lategame decisionmaking like they have now, c9 could never win TI5 regardless of who played on their team. Watching c9 just hurts my brain. What decisions are you talking about? I didn't see the game and watched just glimpses from a vod, but from what I saw the game started first turning in that mid t2 push. Fata got comboed from 100 to 0 in an instant. Then c9 stayed, I think they could have fought, but then bone lets his egg get stolen, which turns the fight. That's not a decision making error, that's just a screw up on bone's part. And for whatever reason bone had a soul booster. Going for linkens would at least give the guy who VG go on get a chance to pop his BKB before the lift, or even going aghs would give him a chance to save the guy who they try to burst. And then as far as I saw in later fights taking those was incredibly hard for c9. VG can burst either EE or Fata from 100 to 0 with ease, and after that c9 can't win the fight anymore. Imo "mid/lategame decisions" being c9's weakness compared to other teams is not at all the entire story. I don't mean that it is their strength at all. However, if you look at a lot of the games they lose, it's not mid or lategame they lose, it's early game or right in the first midgame fights. The same thing even with the old lineup when they played against EG in all those finals. It was not lategame they lost, back then they often had incredibly weak early games. A lot of their biggest "throws" also are hardly related to some big "decisions", but instead how they break high ground. For whatever reason they've continued to struggle with that with this lineup. But that said in this TI I don't think they lost a game due to high grounding errors except for LGD g1. Also I find your "kicking logic" rather strange. If the team is together for 8 months, one would think that they try to find the person who can make whatever calls need to be made the best. If they screw up, they try to understand what they did wrong and improve. Noone in any team is doing wrong calls alone and everyone else is just blindly listening to him. If they continue to struggle with something, to me it suggests that the team as a whole lacks some understanding of how to play certain situations, or that they have something internally wrong that screws up their mentality and they can't say calm and think properly in the middle of the game. The error in that midfight was being there in the first place, they could have easily taken a rather uncontested rosh with some patience then did the same thing with an aegis on SF. They could have just ended the game with that, since they can't blow up SF like that twice. Also, when they got the aegis after SF respawned, they decided to split up instead of just pushing (I guess they have become really afraid of going highground). That aegis was their timing and they did not use it, thus it being a decisionmaking problem. I don't watch all c9's games, but what i meant was that with lategame decisionmaking like that, they can't win a TI. To be TI5 (not TI4) winning material, you also need to be able to make good/great decisions in the lategame, that is something c9 lacks right now. Breaking highground requires some big decisions as to how you approach it, c9 seems to just be afraid. Which is something other teams know and can use against them. it's like spudde said above; C9's biggest throws have been when they go highground, so they decided to take the methodical Chinese approach; except they didn't really know how about to do it. So in other words, I am not wrong when I say it's a decision making issue from them. But I mean, it's all rather irrelevant now since they are out and obviously were not TI5 champion material.
Almost everything in dota comes down to some sort of decision making. Starting from the draft, laning decisions, how to play a lane, how to approach the early game, and it goes on. So in that way every team that isn't on the top has a decision making problem. What I don't think is accurate is people pointing out how c9 has specifically a late game problem in how to play the game out. Imo with this roster they are behind the best teams in everything, starting from draft, laning and ending in the lategame.
And don't get me wrong, c9 has played plenty of great games and has a bunch of solid placements even with this roster. Calling them bad is silly, it's just that they are behind the best of the best. Imo in retrospect compared to others they didn't become better after the player changes, so the conclusions imo are that either PLD and Aui brought some game understanding to the team that Misery&n0tail lack, or that they just meshed a bit better inside the game and were able to keep their composure better. But I mean the difference is not that big so I wouldn't make that big of a deal out of this either.
edit: Now that I looked at the game a bit more, indeed there was a moment where c9 got the rosh (after that mid fight had happened), and then first they decided to split up to farm both jungles instead of just pushing. However, this was really early on with the aegis so surely they wanted to push a bit later. But VG took advantage of it with their wards and smoked on EE&n0tail. I'm not sure why c9 didn't just go up, I don't think any of them was particularly close to a crucial item. bone7 had 4.2k gold so maybe he was going to buy something for the push, not sure. But after that with the long death timers the aegis timer was running, and c9 went for a smoke play top lane into VG's base. VG didn't fall for it and then the aegis was already gone and c9 couldn't push. While splitting up to farm both jungles and get more gold when your opponent is stuck in base is standard play, as we saw in the game there was a risk in doing so and c9 got punished.
|
On August 05 2015 22:12 bagels21 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2015 22:07 thiagoop wrote:On August 05 2015 21:04 spudde123 wrote:On August 05 2015 20:40 BigO wrote:
I don't think replacing any particular player just based on "plays" alone will make a difference. Whoever makes their mid/lategame decisions is the one they should consider kicking. Just look at game 1 vs Vici last night for a typical game of c9. Good early/early midgame, followed by some really shitty decisions (some misplays aswell, but with better team decisionmaking, that woudn't have mattered). It just feels like c9 tries really, really hard to lose come midgame. Sometimes they make really good strategic decisions to turn the game in their favour (sneak rosh or something like that), but most of the time it's just really awful. With lategame decisionmaking like they have now, c9 could never win TI5 regardless of who played on their team. Watching c9 just hurts my brain. What decisions are you talking about? I didn't see the game and watched just glimpses from a vod, but from what I saw the game started first turning in that mid t2 push. Fata got comboed from 100 to 0 in an instant. Then c9 stayed, I think they could have fought, but then bone lets his egg get stolen, which turns the fight. That's not a decision making error, that's just a screw up on bone's part. And for whatever reason bone had a soul booster. Going for linkens would at least give the guy who VG go on get a chance to pop his BKB before the lift, or even going aghs would give him a chance to save the guy who they try to burst. And then as far as I saw in later fights taking those was incredibly hard for c9. VG can burst either EE or Fata from 100 to 0 with ease, and after that c9 can't win the fight anymore. Imo "mid/lategame decisions" being c9's weakness compared to other teams is not at all the entire story. I don't mean that it is their strength at all. However, if you look at a lot of the games they lose, it's not mid or lategame they lose, it's early game or right in the first midgame fights. The same thing even with the old lineup when they played against EG in all those finals. It was not lategame they lost, back then they often had incredibly weak early games. A lot of their biggest "throws" also are hardly related to some big "decisions", but instead how they break high ground. For whatever reason they've continued to struggle with that with this lineup. But that said in this TI I don't think they lost a game due to high grounding errors except for LGD g1. Also I find your "kicking logic" rather strange. If the team is together for 8 months, one would think that they try to find the person who can make whatever calls need to be made the best. If they screw up, they try to understand what they did wrong and improve. Noone in any team is doing wrong calls alone and everyone else is just blindly listening to him. If they continue to struggle with something, to me it suggests that the team as a whole lacks some understanding of how to play certain situations, or that they have something internally wrong that screws up their mentality and they can't say calm and think properly in the middle of the game. I am from my cell now so i cant give the precise timings, but at some point c9 were 1 racks up, aegis on FATA, bkbs on the three cores, while spec had only radiance and a vitality booster, FATA was like 5k ahead on networth and EE was second with a good margin. At this point if you 5 man push with FATA ahead, with wisp and sunray behind him you just cant focus him, if you blow your cooldowns on him thats a free racks because when he is back after aegis and with bkb up they simply cant scratch him. And its not like they could bypass him and initiate a fight with bkb Phoenix and gyro on the back. Even with perfect execution from VG and poor execution from c9 worst case scenario you get a tier 3 and relocate a core out, trapping the enemy in their base for some minutes. Instead they went back to farm, VG smokes and kills ee and notail, spec starts to leap frog his farm thanks to the kills and space c9 is giving, fata loses aegis without doing anything. After that it was just a feeding fest and spec that had no game impact for 35 to 40 minutes just wrecks then. As a c9 fan i hope they disband, bone7 doesnt cut it at this level of dota, he is just not good enough, not even gonna discuss that second game draft. EE and notail lack synergy. FATA make some very bad midfight decisions and quite frankly i cant see him as a tier one mid if you compare to others at this TI outside of 1 or 2 heroes he is very good at. I think c9 should keep EE and start a whole new team taking advantage of his marketing qualities with the community, also to provide experience to new players. Misery would be welcome, i think he was the best of then at this TI, but i dont think he wants to continue. I dont see c9 winning any major tournament with this formation on, not now, not ever. don't worry, chances are EE is the only player left. Maybe bone remains, I don't think any of the rest of them will stay. I think you're a bit too harsh on the players. The team just lacked synergy, but yes I do agree with your overall assessment of the game. C9 went the opposite direction they usually play and was extremely safe. They usually fuck up going high ground and doing yoloing shit but this time they literally were too scared of going high ground and wasted 2 straight aegises. It was frankly stupid. They also should have take mid t2 at the same time they were raxing top but were again too scared. Whatever, it's all over now
It's way too hard to say who is staying together without knowing what happens with Secret and EG first. While people like to meme about all these issues in c9, fact is that after TI4 overall there is no better western team than them other than Secret and EG. Obviously Empire was in contention for the 3rd spot now after c9 changed their lineup, but they are from CIS so they don't really fight for the same players anyway. So if you say n0tail, Misery and Fata will leave, where would they go? I'm not sure if they were all that encouraged about the synergy between the n0tail&Misery support duo to make a team around these 3 guys, at least if Misery doesn't switch roles.
I wouldn't be surprised if a bunch of the c9 guys still want to play together, but they surely will have at least 1 player change. Sadly I think bone should be the first one out. His performance at TI simply wasn't good, imo there was only 1 game where he shined in the entire event. Also I don't really like their support duo, but they could in theory put Misery on the offlane and pick up a support. But we'll see.
|
On August 05 2015 22:41 spudde123 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2015 22:12 bagels21 wrote:On August 05 2015 22:07 thiagoop wrote:On August 05 2015 21:04 spudde123 wrote:On August 05 2015 20:40 BigO wrote:
I don't think replacing any particular player just based on "plays" alone will make a difference. Whoever makes their mid/lategame decisions is the one they should consider kicking. Just look at game 1 vs Vici last night for a typical game of c9. Good early/early midgame, followed by some really shitty decisions (some misplays aswell, but with better team decisionmaking, that woudn't have mattered). It just feels like c9 tries really, really hard to lose come midgame. Sometimes they make really good strategic decisions to turn the game in their favour (sneak rosh or something like that), but most of the time it's just really awful. With lategame decisionmaking like they have now, c9 could never win TI5 regardless of who played on their team. Watching c9 just hurts my brain. What decisions are you talking about? I didn't see the game and watched just glimpses from a vod, but from what I saw the game started first turning in that mid t2 push. Fata got comboed from 100 to 0 in an instant. Then c9 stayed, I think they could have fought, but then bone lets his egg get stolen, which turns the fight. That's not a decision making error, that's just a screw up on bone's part. And for whatever reason bone had a soul booster. Going for linkens would at least give the guy who VG go on get a chance to pop his BKB before the lift, or even going aghs would give him a chance to save the guy who they try to burst. And then as far as I saw in later fights taking those was incredibly hard for c9. VG can burst either EE or Fata from 100 to 0 with ease, and after that c9 can't win the fight anymore. Imo "mid/lategame decisions" being c9's weakness compared to other teams is not at all the entire story. I don't mean that it is their strength at all. However, if you look at a lot of the games they lose, it's not mid or lategame they lose, it's early game or right in the first midgame fights. The same thing even with the old lineup when they played against EG in all those finals. It was not lategame they lost, back then they often had incredibly weak early games. A lot of their biggest "throws" also are hardly related to some big "decisions", but instead how they break high ground. For whatever reason they've continued to struggle with that with this lineup. But that said in this TI I don't think they lost a game due to high grounding errors except for LGD g1. Also I find your "kicking logic" rather strange. If the team is together for 8 months, one would think that they try to find the person who can make whatever calls need to be made the best. If they screw up, they try to understand what they did wrong and improve. Noone in any team is doing wrong calls alone and everyone else is just blindly listening to him. If they continue to struggle with something, to me it suggests that the team as a whole lacks some understanding of how to play certain situations, or that they have something internally wrong that screws up their mentality and they can't say calm and think properly in the middle of the game. I am from my cell now so i cant give the precise timings, but at some point c9 were 1 racks up, aegis on FATA, bkbs on the three cores, while spec had only radiance and a vitality booster, FATA was like 5k ahead on networth and EE was second with a good margin. At this point if you 5 man push with FATA ahead, with wisp and sunray behind him you just cant focus him, if you blow your cooldowns on him thats a free racks because when he is back after aegis and with bkb up they simply cant scratch him. And its not like they could bypass him and initiate a fight with bkb Phoenix and gyro on the back. Even with perfect execution from VG and poor execution from c9 worst case scenario you get a tier 3 and relocate a core out, trapping the enemy in their base for some minutes. Instead they went back to farm, VG smokes and kills ee and notail, spec starts to leap frog his farm thanks to the kills and space c9 is giving, fata loses aegis without doing anything. After that it was just a feeding fest and spec that had no game impact for 35 to 40 minutes just wrecks then. As a c9 fan i hope they disband, bone7 doesnt cut it at this level of dota, he is just not good enough, not even gonna discuss that second game draft. EE and notail lack synergy. FATA make some very bad midfight decisions and quite frankly i cant see him as a tier one mid if you compare to others at this TI outside of 1 or 2 heroes he is very good at. I think c9 should keep EE and start a whole new team taking advantage of his marketing qualities with the community, also to provide experience to new players. Misery would be welcome, i think he was the best of then at this TI, but i dont think he wants to continue. I dont see c9 winning any major tournament with this formation on, not now, not ever. don't worry, chances are EE is the only player left. Maybe bone remains, I don't think any of the rest of them will stay. I think you're a bit too harsh on the players. The team just lacked synergy, but yes I do agree with your overall assessment of the game. C9 went the opposite direction they usually play and was extremely safe. They usually fuck up going high ground and doing yoloing shit but this time they literally were too scared of going high ground and wasted 2 straight aegises. It was frankly stupid. They also should have take mid t2 at the same time they were raxing top but were again too scared. Whatever, it's all over now It's way too hard to say who is staying together without knowing what happens with Secret and EG first. While people like to meme about all these issues in c9, fact is that after TI4 overall there is no better western team than them other than Secret and EG. Obviously Empire was in contention for the 3rd spot now after c9 changed their lineup, but they are from CIS so they don't really fight for the same players anyway. So if you say n0tail, Misery and Fata will leave, where would they go? I'm not sure if they were all that encouraged about the synergy between the n0tail&Misery support duo to make a team around these 3 guys, at least if Misery doesn't switch roles. I wouldn't be surprised if a bunch of the c9 guys still want to play together, but they surely will have at least 1 player change. Sadly I think bone should be the first one out. His performance at TI simply wasn't good, imo there was only 1 game where he shined in the entire event. Also I don't really like their support duo, but they could in theory put Misery on the offlane and pick up a support. But we'll see.
I think Notail reunites with Fly again at some point. They're pretty much best friends and Fly's already on a HoN team (jokes). Misery is the hard one to gauge because he's honestly willing to play with any group of players. I think FATA might get the short end of the stick simply because it's been shown that solo-mid is usually the easiest position to fill. I do think they are the 3rd best team in the west, but they could totally pull an EG or old Kaipi and add a couple of really young/unknown players. Might be the talent/creativity injection they need
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
