After a somewhat bumpy start to the tournament, with cockroaches and electrical fires, the Major All Stars managed to pull through and give us a weekend filled with great games. Going into the weekend there were several questions Dota 2 fans asked themselves. How good is the new iG? Was Rave's run through DAC just a fluke? Will any of the other SEA teams step up and show the Europeans and Chinese that their scene is underrated?
iG certainly gave us a very clear reply to the first question. They are back! Not only did they win the entire event, they did so in a very convincing fashion. Throughout the tournament they only dropped one game, the Winner Bracket finals versus Team Empire. But it took a performance out of the ordinary, with a 25-5-15 KDA from Empire's Resolut1on in order for that to happen. Once they faced Empire again in the finals, the CIS squad had no chance.
Although they walked away with the trophy, it is worth mentioning that this tournament might not have been the best way to measure where iG stands at the moment compared to other top TI5 hopefuls. The teams they beat are not the worst in the scene, but in order to truly know where they stand they will have to play better opposition in their upcoming matches. NiP have been taking games off Tier 1 teams lately, although it is still debatable if they are to be counted as one themselves. Empire has won tournaments in the last few months, but failed to even qualify for DAC 2015.
This tournament wasn't just created so that iG would have a few sparring partners to get up to speed. Fans had hoped that the SEA scene would get a chance to show off their talents. Having one team make a deep run would be huge for the scene, even if the tournament wasn't as star packed as DAC. Going into the tournament everyone thought that Rave would be the big SEA hope. But after the first round none of the SEA teams had moved on. Not only that, but only one of the four SEA teams, Rave, even managed to take a game off their opponents. So after the first round of the losers bracket half of the SEA teams were eliminated. And things only got worse from there on. The great American hope NiP beat Invasion 2-0 and after Na`Vi easily dismissed Redemption the nightmare became true; all four SEA teams had placed at the bottom of the standings.
It really is quite sad for SEA. They're only potentially ahead of the Korean DOTA2 scene, and that's not much to write home about. The days of Orange seem so long ago now.
Hopefully this embarrassment serves them the same way G-1 and TI3 served China a couple years back and spurs the scene to work harder to get into the top tiers of play.
TBH they should have just loaded the shit outta the brackets with all 4 sea teams on one side to guarantee at least a 3rd place rofl
I mean, people would have complained but who cares? I'm sure they can claim "randomly generated" or in some other way explain it beyond blatant favouritism and it's not like the fans could be LESS impressed by the tournament organizers right?
On March 24 2015 02:01 Acritter wrote: It really is quite sad for SEA. They're only potentially ahead of the Korean DOTA2 scene, and that's not much to write home about. The days of Orange seem so long ago now.
Hopefully this embarrassment serves them the same way G-1 and TI3 served China a couple years back and spurs the scene to work harder to get into the top tiers of play.
In most SEA tournaments, the Korean-based teams perform better than those from Malaysia/Singapore/etc. For instance, in TS3 qualifiers, Rave won, MVPP got second, and MVPHot6(who actually had to qualify) got third. We'll see if EHOME.my can change that, though.
The SEA scene is in a rough place, there's not much money there so even the top teams have to play in every dinky little tournament, which in turn gives little incentive for the tournament organizers to raise their prize pools. Because the prize pools(and salaries?) are so low, by my understanding a lot of players work as well, which gives them less chance to practice compared to top Chinese/European teams, which leads to a fairly vicious cycle. The difference is that Chinese teams can actually afford to practice all day, and I believe most SEA teams cannot.
On March 24 2015 02:01 Acritter wrote: It really is quite sad for SEA. They're only potentially ahead of the Korean DOTA2 scene, and that's not much to write home about. The days of Orange seem so long ago now.
Hopefully this embarrassment serves them the same way G-1 and TI3 served China a couple years back and spurs the scene to work harder to get into the top tiers of play.
In most SEA tournaments, the Korean-based teams perform better than those from Malaysia/Singapore/etc. For instance, in TS3 qualifiers, Rave won, MVPP got second, and MVPHot6(who actually had to qualify) got third. We'll see if EHOME.my can change that, though.
The SEA scene is in a rough place, there's not much money there so even the top teams have to play in every dinky little tournament, which in turn gives little incentive for the tournament organizers to raise their prize pools. Because the prize pools(and salaries?) are so low, by my understanding a lot of players work as well, which gives them less chance to practice compared to top Chinese/European teams, which leads to a fairly vicious cycle. The difference is that Chinese teams can actually afford to practice all day, and I believe most SEA teams cannot.
These days they don't take the game seriously at all compared to the other regions, you look at all the talent on teams rotting away like Redemption, 5eva, pre-fix Mineski... The region was already in decline even by TI3, which was the last time they had any effect on Chinese meta (MUFC and Zenith did awful). The difference between the Korean teams and the rest of the world versus regular SEA teams is that the former puts in the work to win while the latter either can't or sees no reason to.
On March 24 2015 02:01 Acritter wrote: It really is quite sad for SEA. They're only potentially ahead of the Korean DOTA2 scene, and that's not much to write home about. The days of Orange seem so long ago now.
Hopefully this embarrassment serves them the same way G-1 and TI3 served China a couple years back and spurs the scene to work harder to get into the top tiers of play.
In most SEA tournaments, the Korean-based teams perform better than those from Malaysia/Singapore/etc. For instance, in TS3 qualifiers, Rave won, MVPP got second, and MVPHot6(who actually had to qualify) got third. We'll see if EHOME.my can change that, though.
The SEA scene is in a rough place, there's not much money there so even the top teams have to play in every dinky little tournament, which in turn gives little incentive for the tournament organizers to raise their prize pools. Because the prize pools(and salaries?) are so low, by my understanding a lot of players work as well, which gives them less chance to practice compared to top Chinese/European teams, which leads to a fairly vicious cycle. The difference is that Chinese teams can actually afford to practice all day, and I believe most SEA teams cannot.
These days they don't take the game seriously at all compared to the other regions, you look at all the talent on teams rotting away like Redemption, 5eva, pre-fix Mineski... The region was already in decline even by TI3, which was the last time they had any effect on Chinese meta (MUFC and Zenith did awful). The difference between the Korean teams and the rest of the world versus regular SEA teams is that the former puts in the work to win while the latter either can't or sees no reason to.
I agree with this entirely, but my guess(with absolutely no information other than what's out there in the public scene) is that the issue is that they see no reason to/are not able to, rather than not wanting to.
Got flamed every time in the past for this opinion but mushi iceiceice and ymt among some others need to retire otherwise sea is going nowhere. Theres no opportunity to breed the potential and mushi and iceiceice who are arguably their best players never win or even come close to winning TI without insane rosters behind them. Sea up and comers don't put in work like Korea cuz there's no where to go, the spots are taken by chuan and the like.
^might come off as a fanboy, but honestly I dont see how anyone can say iceiceice can only win with an insane roster behind him. Many would argue iceiceice is easily the best offlaner in the world, and his individual skill and mastery of the game is there for everyone to see.
It's also a bit harder to be an 'up and comer' in the SEA scene due to social bias against games I think. It's seen as a waste of time and a childish act by an overwhelming majority of adults here.
He only wins with an insane roster because its historically true. His highest placements or tournament wins have only been in such lineups in dota 2 with Vici, DK. Not to say a player of his calibur would randomly get thrown into some shit lineup but it's kind of like if you expected black to contribute massively to high placements or tournament wins with team tinker.
He's not 'easily ' the best offlaner in the world. There are some others out there who can challenge him or perform similarly and even outperform him on certain heroes. He has a blackhole effect or pseduo-confidence effect on drafts and picks when he insists on playing invoker mid or his timber play. Like when he was on DK whenever he got his ' famous ' invoker mid it would force mushi safe lane and even if he came ahead in mid he didn't translate it into a win for his team for various reasons.
Yes he has individual skill and mastery of the game, but it's not enough if your goal is for SEA to rise as a region. Every reiteration of super SEA teams is just a rehash of YMT+bros vs Mushi+bros with Ice3 and Chuan getting good spots in Chinese teams.
You're hardly coming off as a fanboy though. Just a normal iceiceice fan who doesn't look for his weakness [ every player has one or some ] and I've met very very few SEAers who don't immediately go up in arms and act like I spat on their mothers faces when I say SEA has been the weakest region for the longest time of all the major regions cumulatively including NA
On March 24 2015 06:15 Ack1027 wrote: Got flamed every time in the past for this opinion but mushi iceiceice and ymt among some others need to retire otherwise sea is going nowhere. Theres no opportunity to breed the potential and mushi and iceiceice who are arguably their best players never win or even come close to winning TI without insane rosters behind them. Sea up and comers don't put in work like Korea cuz there's no where to go, the spots are taken by chuan and the like.
Because there's absolutely no basis behind it. There were plenty of times when Titan/Orange were knocked out of SEA tournaments and there was some hope for other SEA teams to get better. But then everything went to hell again when Arrow Gaming, MSI, and Mineski got banned for match fixing and destroyed the year for a lot of the new generation players.
BTW ChuaN and iceiceice aren't taking anybody's spots. There's little incentive for China to keep trying new SEA players when most of them don't pan out: Johnny and Meracle eventually went back to SEA because they weren't good enough, EHOME's veteran SEA players didn't pan out, and even if some of the SEA players were funded in China they can't or don't want to go play there. Why would China want go through the trouble of importing unknown players when they can just develop their own homegrown talent?
And teams put work in Korea because they have the environment and motivation to succeed, not because there's a void to fill. There's already a pre-developed esports scene and media there and Nexon throws money at Dota2 amounting to several times SEA's annual prizepools which is why entire teams moved across the world to play there, a feat that has been only almost done by LGD.int and the current Team Tinker.
On March 24 2015 10:44 Ack1027 wrote: He only wins with an insane roster because its historically true. His highest placements or tournament wins have only been in such lineups in dota 2 with Vici, DK. Not to say a player of his calibur would randomly get thrown into some shit lineup but it's kind of like if you expected black to contribute massively to high placements or tournament wins with team tinker.
He's not 'easily ' the best offlaner in the world. There are some others out there who can challenge him or perform similarly and even outperform him on certain heroes. He has a blackhole effect or pseduo-confidence effect on drafts and picks when he insists on playing invoker mid or his timber play. Like when he was on DK whenever he got his ' famous ' invoker mid it would force mushi safe lane and even if he came ahead in mid he didn't translate it into a win for his team for various reasons.
Yes he has individual skill and mastery of the game, but it's not enough if your goal is for SEA to rise as a region. Every reiteration of super SEA teams is just a rehash of YMT+bros vs Mushi+bros with Ice3 and Chuan getting good spots in Chinese teams.
You're hardly coming off as a fanboy though. Just a normal iceiceice fan who doesn't look for his weakness [ every player has one or some ] and I've met very very few SEAers who don't immediately go up in arms and act like I spat on their mothers faces when I say SEA has been the weakest region for the longest time of all the major regions cumulatively including NA
Guess our history seems to be different because I remember him winning many tournaments when he was playing in Zenith,
On March 24 2015 10:44 Ack1027 wrote: He only wins with an insane roster because its historically true. His highest placements or tournament wins have only been in such lineups in dota 2 with Vici, DK. Not to say a player of his calibur would randomly get thrown into some shit lineup but it's kind of like if you expected black to contribute massively to high placements or tournament wins with team tinker.
He's not 'easily ' the best offlaner in the world. There are some others out there who can challenge him or perform similarly and even outperform him on certain heroes. He has a blackhole effect or pseduo-confidence effect on drafts and picks when he insists on playing invoker mid or his timber play. Like when he was on DK whenever he got his ' famous ' invoker mid it would force mushi safe lane and even if he came ahead in mid he didn't translate it into a win for his team for various reasons.
Yes he has individual skill and mastery of the game, but it's not enough if your goal is for SEA to rise as a region. Every reiteration of super SEA teams is just a rehash of YMT+bros vs Mushi+bros with Ice3 and Chuan getting good spots in Chinese teams.
You're hardly coming off as a fanboy though. Just a normal iceiceice fan who doesn't look for his weakness [ every player has one or some ] and I've met very very few SEAers who don't immediately go up in arms and act like I spat on their mothers faces when I say SEA has been the weakest region for the longest time of all the major regions cumulatively including NA
Guess our history seems to be different because I remember him winning many tournaments when he was playing in Zenith,
Maybe for him it was an "insane" roster (honestly, only Benedict "Stayinthetress" Lim was ever close to Iceiceice's skill level in that team), but it's honestly not. It's a very unfair characterization of iceiceice who has been through plenty of team throughout Dota 1 and 2 and has always shown himself capable of raising the level of the team quite a bit through individual play and leadership. I really don't know why Ack thinks that badly of iceiceice, but while I disagree with him, he's entitled to that opinion. Other players have plenty of haters. I remember Azarkon ragging on 430 for so long during TI2 even when 430 was owning Dendi and Mushi in matchups he was supposed t lose. Burning gets his fair share of flack for being too "safe" or being an outdated carry player. And it isn't exclusive to Asians as basically every Western player gets some form of "too egotistic" "too stupid" "too individually weak" etc etc ad nauseam.
However, as a SEA guy and someone who's watched the scene since Dota 1 (2003 onwards, with a lot of breaks in between), I agree that right now SEA is indeed the weakest of the regions, including the Korean region (which is hybrid SEA/China). You just don't have any stability at all. A far cry from the glory days of Dota 1 when we actually stood a chance, with teams like Zenith, Starsboba, Mineski, Flow, XcN, MI2, etc.
I don't get how the best of best players from SEA need to retire in order for the SEA scene to develop? It's not like they affiliate much with the scene now anyway, anyone can help enlighten me?
I was unaware my homecountry Sweden had been incorporated into the US..
It's a joke we've been using that was explained better in the Preview article. They replaced the NA qualifiers team so we're calling them the American hope
On March 24 2015 10:44 Ack1027 wrote: He only wins with an insane roster because its historically true. His highest placements or tournament wins have only been in such lineups in dota 2 with Vici, DK. Not to say a player of his calibur would randomly get thrown into some shit lineup but it's kind of like if you expected black to contribute massively to high placements or tournament wins with team tinker.
He's not 'easily ' the best offlaner in the world. There are some others out there who can challenge him or perform similarly and even outperform him on certain heroes. He has a blackhole effect or pseduo-confidence effect on drafts and picks when he insists on playing invoker mid or his timber play. Like when he was on DK whenever he got his ' famous ' invoker mid it would force mushi safe lane and even if he came ahead in mid he didn't translate it into a win for his team for various reasons.
Yes he has individual skill and mastery of the game, but it's not enough if your goal is for SEA to rise as a region. Every reiteration of super SEA teams is just a rehash of YMT+bros vs Mushi+bros with Ice3 and Chuan getting good spots in Chinese teams.
You're hardly coming off as a fanboy though. Just a normal iceiceice fan who doesn't look for his weakness [ every player has one or some ] and I've met very very few SEAers who don't immediately go up in arms and act like I spat on their mothers faces when I say SEA has been the weakest region for the longest time of all the major regions cumulatively including NA
Guess our history seems to be different because I remember him winning many tournaments when he was playing in Zenith,
Maybe for him it was an "insane" roster (honestly, only Benedict "Stayinthetress" Lim was ever close to Iceiceice's skill level in that team), but it's honestly not. It's a very unfair characterization of iceiceice who has been through plenty of team throughout Dota 1 and 2 and has always shown himself capable of raising the level of the team quite a bit through individual play and leadership. I really don't know why Ack thinks that badly of iceiceice, but while I disagree with him, he's entitled to that opinion. Other players have plenty of haters. I remember Azarkon ragging on 430 for so long during TI2 even when 430 was owning Dendi and Mushi in matchups he was supposed t lose. Burning gets his fair share of flack for being too "safe" or being an outdated carry player. And it isn't exclusive to Asians as basically every Western player gets some form of "too egotistic" "too stupid" "too individually weak" etc etc ad nauseam.
However, as a SEA guy and someone who's watched the scene since Dota 1 (2003 onwards, with a lot of breaks in between), I agree that right now SEA is indeed the weakest of the regions, including the Korean region (which is hybrid SEA/China). You just don't have any stability at all. A far cry from the glory days of Dota 1 when we actually stood a chance, with teams like Zenith, Starsboba, Mineski, Flow, XcN, MI2, etc.
Being bored and without a desktop makes me post critically about dota on LD even when I know I shouldnt bother. The replies don't really encourage anyone to wonder why iceiceice or mushi never win or come close to winning TI. Their best efforts are as orange and VG which Imo for orange their run was not impressive in the context of winning the whole thing. They had no chance to upset the winner and VG got 3-0d without a fight in a very one sided affair.
SEA poster majority plays out the same again and again and my opinion is always the same yet SEA goes down further and further in reputation and overall skill. Match fixing and no room for growth. If you think ice3 and mushi aren't taking spots that's kinda delusional. They were deemed good enough to be recruited which means Chinese teams are willing to bypass homegrown talent when they see something good enough, lest we ignore black and international rosters. Why would players in SEA bother trying to become better than mushi in their current dismal tournament circuit and extremely low chance to outplay the spotlight on ice3 and mushi? Those two attributed their growth as players before becoming mega stars to playing in SEA
Unlike most of the replies I've played against and hosted games for SEAs old fame like hyhy and dota1 ks, zenith rosters. As it was then the scene improved only when old guard realized they reached their peak and it wasn't enough to raise the entire region. NA did the same thing except players like fear who anyone with a brain knows had the potential but lacked the teammates and environment stuck it out. It'd be different if mushi stayed with sea teams or ice3 took someone under his wing from sea ala grubby for sc2 but remember the original argument is why SEA is stagnating, and it is.
I never downplayed ice3s skill. I stated facts. He isn't the undisputed offlaner king. However he is very highly skilled, top ten player for sure. Again I get ignored for my argument that his peak in a team like DK clearly better than his past teams at the time [ don't forget he had mushi, SEAs other greatest star ] he fell way short of #1 at TI Idk how I get misunderstood for underestimating ice3 or whatever. Im also not a hater...but don't we love throwing that word around anytime someone says something not overwhelmingly positive.
On March 24 2015 16:18 vndestiny wrote: I don't get how the best of best players from SEA need to retire in order for the SEA scene to develop? It's not like they affiliate much with the scene now anyway, anyone can help enlighten me?
My understanding is the guy thinks that if iceiceice and Mushi and Chuan retired, they would be replaced by SEA players because reasons.
No...the region would have more reasons to want to grow..anyone from any region loves seeing their players in a top China team. When mushi goes back to sea he immediately sucks up any and all pure sea talent in a roster around him...and when it inevitably fails to reach his goals or disbands there's confusion as to why sea doesn't grow. Its not even that he's ON a top Chinese team...its that being on a team like DK commands respect so pure SEA teams fall in line to a capped commodity of a player.
Also when did zenith win or threaten the eventual TI winner at TI...? Context please
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.liquiddota.com/staff/Julmust/articles/2015/mar/mast_recap_brakkit.png)
