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The current meta is also "how the fuck do we play this patch" and none of us know how exactly it would settle if not re-tuned for a few months.
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On September 27 2014 11:50 Nymzee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2014 11:42 Plansix wrote:On September 27 2014 11:39 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On September 27 2014 11:29 Plansix wrote:On September 27 2014 11:27 Fwizzz wrote:On September 27 2014 11:17 Shaella wrote:
so stop getting picked off. It's impossible not to die on dota. Well the game only punishes you if you die over and over while ahead. Not at all. Die once or twice when far ahead and if the enemy has better lategame scaling heroes you are screwed. It's not promoting good play it's masking bad play by giving the behind players undeserved gold. Dota is full of overpowered stuff (which is balanced by other overpowered stuff) depending on the situation there is hardly a way not to die. Well I'm sure it's going to be adjusted over time, but there are plenty of other games for you to play till then. the problem is, it's ruining tournament play. the current meta is: go +++++++++++++++++++++ greed because early/mid game doesn't matter as long as you have wave clear.
The 30 hour meta. It's really been worked out, I know.
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Q: If one hero is level 25 with a net worth of 10000 and everyone else has 0 net worth, and that hero dies near 4 enemy heroes, how much gold did the other team gain?
A:
+ Show Spoiler +The killer gained 425 kill gold, and him and each of the assists gained 2110 area gold, for a total of 8,865 gold.
In other words, he went from having 100% of the gold to having 53% of the gold, even if he lost no unreliable gold.
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On September 27 2014 11:56 Buckyman wrote:Q: If one hero is level 25 with a net worth of 10000 and everyone else has 0 net worth, and that hero dies near 4 enemy heroes, how much gold did the other team gain? A: + Show Spoiler +The killer gained 425 kill gold, and him and each of the assists gained 2110 area gold, for a total of 8,865 gold.
In other words, he went from having 100% of the gold to having 53% of the gold.
I dont like bounty, but using impossible examples doesn't help. It comes off like someone saying "zues is so OP because if you stack these 4 debuffs and have 30k gold you instantly kill the team!"
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On September 27 2014 11:54 FHDH wrote:
The current meta is also "how the fuck do we play this patch" and none of us know how exactly it would settle if not re-tuned for a few months.
On September 27 2014 11:55 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2014 11:50 Nymzee wrote:On September 27 2014 11:42 Plansix wrote:On September 27 2014 11:39 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On September 27 2014 11:29 Plansix wrote:On September 27 2014 11:27 Fwizzz wrote:On September 27 2014 11:17 Shaella wrote:
so stop getting picked off. It's impossible not to die on dota. Well the game only punishes you if you die over and over while ahead. Not at all. Die once or twice when far ahead and if the enemy has better lategame scaling heroes you are screwed. It's not promoting good play it's masking bad play by giving the behind players undeserved gold. Dota is full of overpowered stuff (which is balanced by other overpowered stuff) depending on the situation there is hardly a way not to die. Well I'm sure it's going to be adjusted over time, but there are plenty of other games for you to play till then. the problem is, it's ruining tournament play. the current meta is: go +++++++++++++++++++++ greed because early/mid game doesn't matter as long as you have wave clear. The 30 hour meta. It's really been worked out, I know.
Yes yes, it's impossible to make any conclusions with any degree of confidence whatsoever until the patch has been played for infinite time. /sarcasm
Perhaps this conclusion is inaccurate and would be shown to be so with more evolution to the meta. Do you have any actual argument that this is the case other than "oh no you can't possibly know"?
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On September 27 2014 11:56 Buckyman wrote:Q: If one hero is level 25 with a net worth of 10000 and everyone else has 0 net worth, and that hero dies near 4 enemy heroes, how much gold did the other team gain? A: + Show Spoiler +The killer gained 425 kill gold, and him and each of the assists gained 2110 area gold, for a total of 8,865 gold.
In other words, he went from having 100% of the gold to having 53% of the gold, even if he lost no unreliable gold.
thanks for talking about a scenario that will never happen in a single meaningful game of dota ever your contribution was really high thanks
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On September 27 2014 11:30 Nymzee wrote:http://www.twitch.tv/dota2canadacupshadows of the past ahead by 10k gold, 3 people die pushing T3s and the net worth shoots to 2k in favour of SotP. sneyking (spectre) got 3k alone from the fight letting him get his radiance what a dumb game we're playing
Pretty much this. At this point its not even worth winning early game, in fact you want to be losing, then win 1 fight while defending high ground and win the game.
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On September 27 2014 12:00 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2014 11:54 FHDH wrote:
The current meta is also "how the fuck do we play this patch" and none of us know how exactly it would settle if not re-tuned for a few months. Show nested quote +On September 27 2014 11:55 Plansix wrote:On September 27 2014 11:50 Nymzee wrote:On September 27 2014 11:42 Plansix wrote:On September 27 2014 11:39 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On September 27 2014 11:29 Plansix wrote:On September 27 2014 11:27 Fwizzz wrote:On September 27 2014 11:17 Shaella wrote:
so stop getting picked off. It's impossible not to die on dota. Well the game only punishes you if you die over and over while ahead. Not at all. Die once or twice when far ahead and if the enemy has better lategame scaling heroes you are screwed. It's not promoting good play it's masking bad play by giving the behind players undeserved gold. Dota is full of overpowered stuff (which is balanced by other overpowered stuff) depending on the situation there is hardly a way not to die. Well I'm sure it's going to be adjusted over time, but there are plenty of other games for you to play till then. the problem is, it's ruining tournament play. the current meta is: go +++++++++++++++++++++ greed because early/mid game doesn't matter as long as you have wave clear. The 30 hour meta. It's really been worked out, I know. Yes yes, it's impossible to make any conclusions with any degree of confidence whatsoever until the patch has been played for infinite time. /sarcasm Perhaps this conclusion is inaccurate and would be shown to be so with more evolution to the meta. Do you have any actual argument that this is the case other than "oh no you can't possibly know"?
The argument that a meta that exist now is permeant or even going to be the same in 72 hours is weak at best. There have not been enough man hours played on the patch for it to be even remotely figured out.
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Yes yes, it's impossible to make any conclusions with any degree of confidence whatsoever until the patch has been played for infinite time. /sarcasm
The degree of uncertainty at this point is massive and if you don't believe that then lol
Pretty much this. At this point its not even worth winning early game, in fact you want to be losing, then win 1 fight while defending high ground and win the game.
Let us know how this strategy works out for your win rate.
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On September 27 2014 12:01 FinestHour wrote:
thanks for talking about a scenario that will never happen in a single meaningful game of dota ever your contribution was really high thanks
Ok, how about the lower bound rather than the upper bound:
No matter how large your lead is and how your gold is distributed, you can lose 16% of your net worth lead to a single death.
No matter how large your lead is and how your gold is distributed, you can lose 37% of your net worth lead to a triple kill.
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On September 27 2014 12:02 BillGates wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2014 11:30 Nymzee wrote:http://www.twitch.tv/dota2canadacupshadows of the past ahead by 10k gold, 3 people die pushing T3s and the net worth shoots to 2k in favour of SotP. sneyking (spectre) got 3k alone from the fight letting him get his radiance what a dumb game we're playing Pretty much this. At this point its not even worth winning early game, in fact you want to be losing, then win 1 fight while defending high ground and win the game.
Hyperbole is awesome. Also, shadows of the past line up sucked and their builds were trash. They had a Lina with a naked BKB, wand and arcanes. And they had night stalker who kept fighting during the day.
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On September 27 2014 12:04 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2014 12:00 Aquanim wrote:On September 27 2014 11:54 FHDH wrote:
The current meta is also "how the fuck do we play this patch" and none of us know how exactly it would settle if not re-tuned for a few months. On September 27 2014 11:55 Plansix wrote:On September 27 2014 11:50 Nymzee wrote:On September 27 2014 11:42 Plansix wrote:On September 27 2014 11:39 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On September 27 2014 11:29 Plansix wrote:On September 27 2014 11:27 Fwizzz wrote:On September 27 2014 11:17 Shaella wrote:
so stop getting picked off. It's impossible not to die on dota. Well the game only punishes you if you die over and over while ahead. Not at all. Die once or twice when far ahead and if the enemy has better lategame scaling heroes you are screwed. It's not promoting good play it's masking bad play by giving the behind players undeserved gold. Dota is full of overpowered stuff (which is balanced by other overpowered stuff) depending on the situation there is hardly a way not to die. Well I'm sure it's going to be adjusted over time, but there are plenty of other games for you to play till then. the problem is, it's ruining tournament play. the current meta is: go +++++++++++++++++++++ greed because early/mid game doesn't matter as long as you have wave clear. The 30 hour meta. It's really been worked out, I know. Yes yes, it's impossible to make any conclusions with any degree of confidence whatsoever until the patch has been played for infinite time. /sarcasm Perhaps this conclusion is inaccurate and would be shown to be so with more evolution to the meta. Do you have any actual argument that this is the case other than "oh no you can't possibly know"? The argument that a meta that exist now is permeant or even going to be the same in 72 hours is weak at best. There have not been enough man hours played on the patch for it to be even remotely figured out.
Sure, but arguing that the meta that exists now will DRASTICALLY change, simply on the grounds that metas change over time, without any reasons for it to shift drastically in one direction or another, isn't even an argument at all. You're just being contrary for the sake of being contrary.
Do you think it is impossible that the overall trend of the meta in 6.82 is simply so obvious that it has only taken 30 hours to figure out? I certainly don't considering how ridiculously huge the bounty changes are.
EDIT: I'm not saying that there won't be any changes in the hero picking meta, that WOULD be ridiculous. But I do think the overall trend in how games go is unlikely to change much.
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On September 27 2014 12:07 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2014 12:04 Plansix wrote:On September 27 2014 12:00 Aquanim wrote:On September 27 2014 11:54 FHDH wrote:
The current meta is also "how the fuck do we play this patch" and none of us know how exactly it would settle if not re-tuned for a few months. On September 27 2014 11:55 Plansix wrote:On September 27 2014 11:50 Nymzee wrote:On September 27 2014 11:42 Plansix wrote:On September 27 2014 11:39 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On September 27 2014 11:29 Plansix wrote:On September 27 2014 11:27 Fwizzz wrote:On September 27 2014 11:17 Shaella wrote:
so stop getting picked off. It's impossible not to die on dota. Well the game only punishes you if you die over and over while ahead. Not at all. Die once or twice when far ahead and if the enemy has better lategame scaling heroes you are screwed. It's not promoting good play it's masking bad play by giving the behind players undeserved gold. Dota is full of overpowered stuff (which is balanced by other overpowered stuff) depending on the situation there is hardly a way not to die. Well I'm sure it's going to be adjusted over time, but there are plenty of other games for you to play till then. the problem is, it's ruining tournament play. the current meta is: go +++++++++++++++++++++ greed because early/mid game doesn't matter as long as you have wave clear. The 30 hour meta. It's really been worked out, I know. Yes yes, it's impossible to make any conclusions with any degree of confidence whatsoever until the patch has been played for infinite time. /sarcasm Perhaps this conclusion is inaccurate and would be shown to be so with more evolution to the meta. Do you have any actual argument that this is the case other than "oh no you can't possibly know"? The argument that a meta that exist now is permeant or even going to be the same in 72 hours is weak at best. There have not been enough man hours played on the patch for it to be even remotely figured out. Sure, but arguing that the meta that exists now will DRASTICALLY change, simply on the grounds that metas change over time, without any reasons for it to shift drastically in one direction or another, isn't even an argument at all. You're just being contrary for the sake of being contrary. Do you think it is impossible that the overall trend of the meta in 6.82 is simply so obvious that it has only taken 30 hours to figure out? I certainly don't considering how ridiculously huge the bounty changes are. EDIT: I'm not saying that there won't be any changes in the hero picking meta, that WOULD be ridiculous. But I do think the overall trend in how games go is unlikely to change much.
Cool, guess we disagree and there is nothing further to discuss.
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[Someone makes statement about "what the meta is" a day after the patch and with a small level of professional play]
[Someone points out that it is ridiculous to claim the meta is established in this time frame with so many changes]
NO SIR YOU ARE THE RIDICULOUS ONE.
Come on.
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On September 27 2014 12:10 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2014 12:07 Aquanim wrote:On September 27 2014 12:04 Plansix wrote:On September 27 2014 12:00 Aquanim wrote:On September 27 2014 11:54 FHDH wrote:
The current meta is also "how the fuck do we play this patch" and none of us know how exactly it would settle if not re-tuned for a few months. On September 27 2014 11:55 Plansix wrote:On September 27 2014 11:50 Nymzee wrote:On September 27 2014 11:42 Plansix wrote:On September 27 2014 11:39 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On September 27 2014 11:29 Plansix wrote:On September 27 2014 11:27 Fwizzz wrote:
[quote]
It's impossible not to die on dota. Well the game only punishes you if you die over and over while ahead. Not at all. Die once or twice when far ahead and if the enemy has better lategame scaling heroes you are screwed. It's not promoting good play it's masking bad play by giving the behind players undeserved gold. Dota is full of overpowered stuff (which is balanced by other overpowered stuff) depending on the situation there is hardly a way not to die. Well I'm sure it's going to be adjusted over time, but there are plenty of other games for you to play till then. the problem is, it's ruining tournament play. the current meta is: go +++++++++++++++++++++ greed because early/mid game doesn't matter as long as you have wave clear. The 30 hour meta. It's really been worked out, I know. Yes yes, it's impossible to make any conclusions with any degree of confidence whatsoever until the patch has been played for infinite time. /sarcasm Perhaps this conclusion is inaccurate and would be shown to be so with more evolution to the meta. Do you have any actual argument that this is the case other than "oh no you can't possibly know"? The argument that a meta that exist now is permeant or even going to be the same in 72 hours is weak at best. There have not been enough man hours played on the patch for it to be even remotely figured out. Sure, but arguing that the meta that exists now will DRASTICALLY change, simply on the grounds that metas change over time, without any reasons for it to shift drastically in one direction or another, isn't even an argument at all. You're just being contrary for the sake of being contrary. Do you think it is impossible that the overall trend of the meta in 6.82 is simply so obvious that it has only taken 30 hours to figure out? I certainly don't considering how ridiculously huge the bounty changes are. EDIT: I'm not saying that there won't be any changes in the hero picking meta, that WOULD be ridiculous. But I do think the overall trend in how games go is unlikely to change much. Cool, guess we disagree and there is nothing further to discuss.
You weren't discussing anything in the first place. Saying "you can't make any conclusions about the patch" is not a discussion. "I think your conclusions might turn out to be wrong and this is why" WOULD be a discussion.
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Guys like me with godlike map awareness are buffed this patch cause I can't be ganked.
Ez katka.
¿
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On September 27 2014 12:01 FinestHour wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2014 11:56 Buckyman wrote:Q: If one hero is level 25 with a net worth of 10000 and everyone else has 0 net worth, and that hero dies near 4 enemy heroes, how much gold did the other team gain? A: + Show Spoiler +The killer gained 425 kill gold, and him and each of the assists gained 2110 area gold, for a total of 8,865 gold.
In other words, he went from having 100% of the gold to having 53% of the gold, even if he lost no unreliable gold. thanks for talking about a scenario that will never happen in a single meaningful game of dota ever your contribution was really high thanks
Your reply was about equal contribution. As is this one.
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On September 27 2014 12:12 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2014 12:10 Plansix wrote:On September 27 2014 12:07 Aquanim wrote:On September 27 2014 12:04 Plansix wrote:On September 27 2014 12:00 Aquanim wrote:On September 27 2014 11:54 FHDH wrote:
The current meta is also "how the fuck do we play this patch" and none of us know how exactly it would settle if not re-tuned for a few months. On September 27 2014 11:55 Plansix wrote:On September 27 2014 11:50 Nymzee wrote:On September 27 2014 11:42 Plansix wrote:On September 27 2014 11:39 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On September 27 2014 11:29 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Well the game only punishes you if you die over and over while ahead. Not at all. Die once or twice when far ahead and if the enemy has better lategame scaling heroes you are screwed. It's not promoting good play it's masking bad play by giving the behind players undeserved gold. Dota is full of overpowered stuff (which is balanced by other overpowered stuff) depending on the situation there is hardly a way not to die. Well I'm sure it's going to be adjusted over time, but there are plenty of other games for you to play till then. the problem is, it's ruining tournament play. the current meta is: go +++++++++++++++++++++ greed because early/mid game doesn't matter as long as you have wave clear. The 30 hour meta. It's really been worked out, I know. Yes yes, it's impossible to make any conclusions with any degree of confidence whatsoever until the patch has been played for infinite time. /sarcasm Perhaps this conclusion is inaccurate and would be shown to be so with more evolution to the meta. Do you have any actual argument that this is the case other than "oh no you can't possibly know"? The argument that a meta that exist now is permeant or even going to be the same in 72 hours is weak at best. There have not been enough man hours played on the patch for it to be even remotely figured out. Sure, but arguing that the meta that exists now will DRASTICALLY change, simply on the grounds that metas change over time, without any reasons for it to shift drastically in one direction or another, isn't even an argument at all. You're just being contrary for the sake of being contrary. Do you think it is impossible that the overall trend of the meta in 6.82 is simply so obvious that it has only taken 30 hours to figure out? I certainly don't considering how ridiculously huge the bounty changes are. EDIT: I'm not saying that there won't be any changes in the hero picking meta, that WOULD be ridiculous. But I do think the overall trend in how games go is unlikely to change much. Cool, guess we disagree and there is nothing further to discuss. You weren't discussing anything in the first place. Saying "you can't make any conclusions about the patch" is not a discussion. "I think your conclusions might turn out to be wrong and this is why" WOULD be a discussion.
The facts are so simple in this it isn't worth discussing. It's either you believe the meta will stay the same or you don't. And I don't are against what people believe is going to happen.
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On September 27 2014 12:19 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2014 12:12 Aquanim wrote:On September 27 2014 12:10 Plansix wrote:On September 27 2014 12:07 Aquanim wrote:On September 27 2014 12:04 Plansix wrote:On September 27 2014 12:00 Aquanim wrote:On September 27 2014 11:54 FHDH wrote:
The current meta is also "how the fuck do we play this patch" and none of us know how exactly it would settle if not re-tuned for a few months. On September 27 2014 11:55 Plansix wrote:On September 27 2014 11:50 Nymzee wrote:On September 27 2014 11:42 Plansix wrote:On September 27 2014 11:39 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
[quote]
Not at all. Die once or twice when far ahead and if the enemy has better lategame scaling heroes you are screwed. It's not promoting good play it's masking bad play by giving the behind players undeserved gold. Dota is full of overpowered stuff (which is balanced by other overpowered stuff) depending on the situation there is hardly a way not to die. Well I'm sure it's going to be adjusted over time, but there are plenty of other games for you to play till then. the problem is, it's ruining tournament play. the current meta is: go +++++++++++++++++++++ greed because early/mid game doesn't matter as long as you have wave clear. The 30 hour meta. It's really been worked out, I know. Yes yes, it's impossible to make any conclusions with any degree of confidence whatsoever until the patch has been played for infinite time. /sarcasm Perhaps this conclusion is inaccurate and would be shown to be so with more evolution to the meta. Do you have any actual argument that this is the case other than "oh no you can't possibly know"? The argument that a meta that exist now is permeant or even going to be the same in 72 hours is weak at best. There have not been enough man hours played on the patch for it to be even remotely figured out. Sure, but arguing that the meta that exists now will DRASTICALLY change, simply on the grounds that metas change over time, without any reasons for it to shift drastically in one direction or another, isn't even an argument at all. You're just being contrary for the sake of being contrary. Do you think it is impossible that the overall trend of the meta in 6.82 is simply so obvious that it has only taken 30 hours to figure out? I certainly don't considering how ridiculously huge the bounty changes are. EDIT: I'm not saying that there won't be any changes in the hero picking meta, that WOULD be ridiculous. But I do think the overall trend in how games go is unlikely to change much. Cool, guess we disagree and there is nothing further to discuss. You weren't discussing anything in the first place. Saying "you can't make any conclusions about the patch" is not a discussion. "I think your conclusions might turn out to be wrong and this is why" WOULD be a discussion. The facts are so simple in this it isn't worth discussing. It's either you believe the meta will stay the same or you don't. And I don't are against what people believe is going to happen.
Okay then. Well, to give us something to discuss so this thread isn't a waste of time, in what direction do you think the meta will change? Sure, maybe you'll be wrong, but isn't that part of the point of hypothesising?
FWIW my opinion isn't exactly the same as the "dota is ruined" crowd. The way I see it, it's inherently difficult to get and keep a lead in 6.82. Not metagame, just sheer mathematics. In a situation where taking a fight where you trade 2 of your heroes for 3 of theirs can diminish your advantage, there will be a definite tendency for advantages to not get very big (probably not much more than 10k, at a guess).
Therefore... you need to be able to take objectives, specifically rax and throne, with (at best) a small advantage. There are a couple of ways to approach that I think:
- Win a big enough fight close enough to their base that you can simply take base objectives before they respawn. You can pick teamfight heroes to influence this but in the end the other team may simply never give you this fight.
- Pick hyper-lategame and win because your team scaled better than theirs with equal gold.
- Pick... some kind of early fighting/pushing team that can win fights and push towers, even without a gold and XP lead. iG vs Newbee game 1 (rather than game 2) yesterday might be an example of this.
- EDIT: Rat.
Having a plan for taking rax (early or late) is, I think, even more important than it has ever been. It's incredibly difficult now to just get a big enough advantage to go high ground and win with heroes that are unsuited to it.
EDIT: I think the "how do we take objectives with a small lead" mindset is going to work out better than the "how do we keep a large lead long enough to take objectives" one.
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How about you all shut the fuck up because 85% of what is said in this thread is bullshit anyways?
Could be a nice start.
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EPT
