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On September 27 2014 08:44 FHDH wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2014 08:42 Fleetfeet wrote:On September 27 2014 08:32 FHDH wrote:On September 27 2014 08:27 Laserist wrote:
There is a reason to be ahead in xp/gold in pro games, we called it skill, good pick and outplaying the opponent. It is not surprising better team has better xp/gold overall. Why I said this: Discussed this after a couple of TI4 losses by Na'Vi that were basically decided in the first five minutes even though the games went 20+ minutes (as opposed to the occasional 11m gg). Having a couple of support rotations go against you super-early could be way too decisive. And people talk about that being skill or whatever but so many things are luck; guessing what your opponent is going to do and being correct, well maybe skill can make you guess correctly more often but if one or two good guesses wins you the game? That's luck. Many games were weighted very heavily to the first few minutes, and if you think each one of them was a fair representation of skill I don't know what to tell you, but you're wrong. You could make a fair case for the patch attempting to address situations where one team is extremely outdrafted by the other, but you can't suddenly claim that they weren't extreme outdrafts. I'm not? Unless you mean you think every time the first few minutes were dominated were "extreme outdrafts" in which case this interpretation of "extreme outdrafts" is "drafts that win the first few minutes of the game, and therefore the game." In which case yes that is something this patch targeted. You can't draft for minutes (-1)-10 now and expect that will secure you the win if it goes well. I was also referring to games in which both teams had good early-game lineups but say one or two rotations went badly and the game went out of control. That was highly likely in the old meta.
Unless I'm mistaken, one of the common concepts in drafting was to draft to win lanes. So yes, drafting with an aim to be ahead at 10 minutes and use that momentum to win the game was fairly common. And not somehow illegitimate or anything other than a display of good strategy or skill.
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On September 27 2014 08:49 Fleetfeet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2014 08:44 FHDH wrote:On September 27 2014 08:42 Fleetfeet wrote:On September 27 2014 08:32 FHDH wrote:On September 27 2014 08:27 Laserist wrote:
There is a reason to be ahead in xp/gold in pro games, we called it skill, good pick and outplaying the opponent. It is not surprising better team has better xp/gold overall. Why I said this: Discussed this after a couple of TI4 losses by Na'Vi that were basically decided in the first five minutes even though the games went 20+ minutes (as opposed to the occasional 11m gg). Having a couple of support rotations go against you super-early could be way too decisive. And people talk about that being skill or whatever but so many things are luck; guessing what your opponent is going to do and being correct, well maybe skill can make you guess correctly more often but if one or two good guesses wins you the game? That's luck. Many games were weighted very heavily to the first few minutes, and if you think each one of them was a fair representation of skill I don't know what to tell you, but you're wrong. You could make a fair case for the patch attempting to address situations where one team is extremely outdrafted by the other, but you can't suddenly claim that they weren't extreme outdrafts. I'm not? Unless you mean you think every time the first few minutes were dominated were "extreme outdrafts" in which case this interpretation of "extreme outdrafts" is "drafts that win the first few minutes of the game, and therefore the game." In which case yes that is something this patch targeted. You can't draft for minutes (-1)-10 now and expect that will secure you the win if it goes well. I was also referring to games in which both teams had good early-game lineups but say one or two rotations went badly and the game went out of control. That was highly likely in the old meta. Unless I'm mistaken, one of the common concepts in drafting was to draft to win lanes. So yes, drafting with an aim to be ahead at 10 minutes and use that momentum to win the game was fairly common. And not somehow illegitimate or anything other than a display of good strategy or skill.
So you want games to be decided in the draft and the first 10 minutes 67%-84% of the time? Because that doesn't really sound that great to me.
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United States15275 Posts
On September 27 2014 08:42 TechSc2 wrote:
I really think this is a super fun and well balanced patch. I've already seen so many different hero combo's that you just couldn't run before because you would be overrun by "the deathball". You win because you outskill your opponent, not because you hit buildings the fastest
Wait one month and you'll be eating your words. There's always going to be a subset of heroes that take advantage of a new patch, and everyone's going to hop on those guys until we get sick of them too. We saw the same phenomenon at the beginning of 6.81.
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On September 27 2014 08:50 Plansix wrote:
So you want games to be decided in the draft and the first 10 minutes 67%-84% of the time? Because that doesn't really sound that great to me.
You're abusing the terminology to arrive at a fallacious argument. Observe: "Teams that are even at the 1 minute mark have a 50% chance of winning the game. So at least half of all games are decided within the first minute."
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On September 27 2014 08:49 Fleetfeet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2014 08:44 FHDH wrote:On September 27 2014 08:42 Fleetfeet wrote:On September 27 2014 08:32 FHDH wrote:On September 27 2014 08:27 Laserist wrote:
There is a reason to be ahead in xp/gold in pro games, we called it skill, good pick and outplaying the opponent. It is not surprising better team has better xp/gold overall. Why I said this: Discussed this after a couple of TI4 losses by Na'Vi that were basically decided in the first five minutes even though the games went 20+ minutes (as opposed to the occasional 11m gg). Having a couple of support rotations go against you super-early could be way too decisive. And people talk about that being skill or whatever but so many things are luck; guessing what your opponent is going to do and being correct, well maybe skill can make you guess correctly more often but if one or two good guesses wins you the game? That's luck. Many games were weighted very heavily to the first few minutes, and if you think each one of them was a fair representation of skill I don't know what to tell you, but you're wrong. You could make a fair case for the patch attempting to address situations where one team is extremely outdrafted by the other, but you can't suddenly claim that they weren't extreme outdrafts. I'm not? Unless you mean you think every time the first few minutes were dominated were "extreme outdrafts" in which case this interpretation of "extreme outdrafts" is "drafts that win the first few minutes of the game, and therefore the game." In which case yes that is something this patch targeted. You can't draft for minutes (-1)-10 now and expect that will secure you the win if it goes well. I was also referring to games in which both teams had good early-game lineups but say one or two rotations went badly and the game went out of control. That was highly likely in the old meta. Unless I'm mistaken, one of the common concepts in drafting was to draft to win lanes. So yes, drafting with an aim to be ahead at 10 minutes and use that momentum to win the game was fairly common. And not somehow illegitimate or anything other than a display of good strategy or skill.
Well you're ignoring a massive part of my argument but I'll come back to that.
This was an aspect of the meta people didn't like. Whether you drafted for it and your opponents didn't and tried to stall you out and failed, or you both drafted for it and one team got the upper hand, or for whatever reason you jumped out to an early lead, it was easy to snowball off of. People didn't like what this did to the meta, and now it's been nerfed. But not made irrelevant: winning early is still strongly correlated to winning.
Back to the argument you keep overlooking: "random" elements such as lucky guesses make a huge contribution to such a small segment of the game. That this segment of the game would regularly decide matches between well-matched teams was not a positive aspect of the meta, and people overlooking luck as a real factor would lead them to believe OUTPLAYED is what happened.
[Edit] By the way winning lanes *still matters* it just doesn't matter as much. What is wrong with that?
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On September 27 2014 08:54 Buckyman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2014 08:50 Plansix wrote:
So you want games to be decided in the draft and the first 10 minutes 67%-84% of the time? Because that doesn't really sound that great to me. You're abusing the terminology to arrive at a fallacious argument. Observe: "Teams that are even at the 1 minute mark have a 50% chance of winning the game. So at least half of all games are decided within the first minute."
The problem is that he is staying the change is bad, but isn't addressing the information that shows that games were very one sided before. People have said that the values might need to be changed, but the "come back system" was put in because games because comebacks were very very rare if a team got a good start.
So yes, my statement is hyperbolic, but when you are presented with a problem and the answer is "we shouldn't do anything to address that issue." then you have to ask if they think the problem does not exist.
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I lost a game 2v5 because,
3 guy left the game. Then PA got a few kills and she became 7-8 level ahead of everyone since her team is significantly lower xp. After that she turned out to be 6 slotted and finished the game 2v5 because her team has lower level and net worth than us. We were all very low levels, with no items and basically food for her. Easy 1v5 with her buddy sven.
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/923054188
Comebacks are real.
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I thought net worth was determined by the value of your non consumable items in your inventory and your current gold.
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On September 27 2014 09:06 Laserist wrote:I lost a game 2v5 because, 3 guy left the game. Then PA got a few kills and she became 7-8 level ahead of everyone since her team is significantly lower xp. After that she turned out to be 6 slotted and finished the game 2v5 because her team has lower level and net worth than us. We were all very low levels, with no items and basically food for her. Easy 1v5 with her buddy sven. http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/923054188Comebacks are real.
So you got outplayed. The only way you can lose a 2v5 if you try to end the game too fast. 5 hero's outfarm 2 however you wanna look at it if you just splitpush and play it safe. Also a PA cannot EVER 1v5 even with 3 people extra worth of passive gold. My guess would be that the PA jumped alot of people farming alone and noone responded with TP's and PA got a massive amount of free kills which made her get alot of items that the player chose well to be nearly unkillable midgame, which then setup PA up for a good lategame set of items
This shows exactly the problem that was pre 6.82. People didn't outskill opponents in game, they just picked the 2-3 OP hero's faster then the other team
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On September 27 2014 08:50 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2014 08:49 Fleetfeet wrote:On September 27 2014 08:44 FHDH wrote:On September 27 2014 08:42 Fleetfeet wrote:On September 27 2014 08:32 FHDH wrote:On September 27 2014 08:27 Laserist wrote:
There is a reason to be ahead in xp/gold in pro games, we called it skill, good pick and outplaying the opponent. It is not surprising better team has better xp/gold overall. Why I said this: Discussed this after a couple of TI4 losses by Na'Vi that were basically decided in the first five minutes even though the games went 20+ minutes (as opposed to the occasional 11m gg). Having a couple of support rotations go against you super-early could be way too decisive. And people talk about that being skill or whatever but so many things are luck; guessing what your opponent is going to do and being correct, well maybe skill can make you guess correctly more often but if one or two good guesses wins you the game? That's luck. Many games were weighted very heavily to the first few minutes, and if you think each one of them was a fair representation of skill I don't know what to tell you, but you're wrong. You could make a fair case for the patch attempting to address situations where one team is extremely outdrafted by the other, but you can't suddenly claim that they weren't extreme outdrafts. I'm not? Unless you mean you think every time the first few minutes were dominated were "extreme outdrafts" in which case this interpretation of "extreme outdrafts" is "drafts that win the first few minutes of the game, and therefore the game." In which case yes that is something this patch targeted. You can't draft for minutes (-1)-10 now and expect that will secure you the win if it goes well. I was also referring to games in which both teams had good early-game lineups but say one or two rotations went badly and the game went out of control. That was highly likely in the old meta. Unless I'm mistaken, one of the common concepts in drafting was to draft to win lanes. So yes, drafting with an aim to be ahead at 10 minutes and use that momentum to win the game was fairly common. And not somehow illegitimate or anything other than a display of good strategy or skill. So you want games to be decided in the draft and the first 10 minutes 67%-84% of the time? Because that doesn't really sound that great to me.
As far as I'm concerned, that would be an improvement on (almost) nothing being decided in the first 10 minutes and everything being decided by the draft and the last 5-10 minutes.
Sure, I've exaggerated a little - so did you.
EDIT: As for those winrate stats on Reddit: you have to be careful with your cause-and-effects. Being ahead in XP doesn't only increase your chance to win directly. Both being ahead in xp AND winning are positively correlated with skill and teamwork. I personally think that a team which is up by 3k XP at 10 minutes in is probably 60% (if not more) likely to be better than the other team skill-wise. In that case, the direct effect of having an XP lead at 10 minutes in on the outcome of the game is approximately zero.
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Simply put:
Games, in most cases, should be influenced by the first ten minutes, not decided by them. That so far appears to be the case.
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On September 27 2014 09:20 TechSc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2014 09:06 Laserist wrote:I lost a game 2v5 because, 3 guy left the game. Then PA got a few kills and she became 7-8 level ahead of everyone since her team is significantly lower xp. After that she turned out to be 6 slotted and finished the game 2v5 because her team has lower level and net worth than us. We were all very low levels, with no items and basically food for her. Easy 1v5 with her buddy sven. http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/923054188Comebacks are real. So you got outplayed. The only way you can lose a 2v5 if you try to end the game too fast. 5 hero's outfarm 2 however you wanna look at it if you just splitpush and play it safe. Also a PA cannot EVER 1v5 even with 3 people extra worth of passive gold. My guess would be that the PA jumped alot of people farming alone and noone responded with TP's and PA got a massive amount of free kills which made her get alot of items that the player chose well to be nearly unkillable midgame, which then setup PA up for a good lategame set of items This shows exactly the problem that was pre 6.82. People didn't outskill opponents in game, they just picked the 2-3 OP hero's faster then the other team
Why bother talking without watching the game?
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the gold lead thing is actually making pubs (even ranked at 5k mmr) so tiresome
leads mean nothing when you have 1-2 people doing their own thing and then getting picked off.
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On September 27 2014 09:47 Laserist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2014 09:20 TechSc2 wrote:On September 27 2014 09:06 Laserist wrote:I lost a game 2v5 because, 3 guy left the game. Then PA got a few kills and she became 7-8 level ahead of everyone since her team is significantly lower xp. After that she turned out to be 6 slotted and finished the game 2v5 because her team has lower level and net worth than us. We were all very low levels, with no items and basically food for her. Easy 1v5 with her buddy sven. http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/923054188Comebacks are real. So you got outplayed. The only way you can lose a 2v5 if you try to end the game too fast. 5 hero's outfarm 2 however you wanna look at it if you just splitpush and play it safe. Also a PA cannot EVER 1v5 even with 3 people extra worth of passive gold. My guess would be that the PA jumped alot of people farming alone and noone responded with TP's and PA got a massive amount of free kills which made her get alot of items that the player chose well to be nearly unkillable midgame, which then setup PA up for a good lategame set of items This shows exactly the problem that was pre 6.82. People didn't outskill opponents in game, they just picked the 2-3 OP hero's faster then the other team Why bother talking without watching the game?
then why bother posting? Without watching the game right now, you are 100% confident that you played it correctly and lost because the PA got alot of passive gold? if you answer yes i will watch the game and post my thought on it
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On September 27 2014 09:54 TechSc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2014 09:47 Laserist wrote:On September 27 2014 09:20 TechSc2 wrote:On September 27 2014 09:06 Laserist wrote:I lost a game 2v5 because, 3 guy left the game. Then PA got a few kills and she became 7-8 level ahead of everyone since her team is significantly lower xp. After that she turned out to be 6 slotted and finished the game 2v5 because her team has lower level and net worth than us. We were all very low levels, with no items and basically food for her. Easy 1v5 with her buddy sven. http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/923054188Comebacks are real. So you got outplayed. The only way you can lose a 2v5 if you try to end the game too fast. 5 hero's outfarm 2 however you wanna look at it if you just splitpush and play it safe. Also a PA cannot EVER 1v5 even with 3 people extra worth of passive gold. My guess would be that the PA jumped alot of people farming alone and noone responded with TP's and PA got a massive amount of free kills which made her get alot of items that the player chose well to be nearly unkillable midgame, which then setup PA up for a good lategame set of items This shows exactly the problem that was pre 6.82. People didn't outskill opponents in game, they just picked the 2-3 OP hero's faster then the other team Why bother talking without watching the game? then why bother posting? Without watching the game right now, you are 100% confident that you played it correctly and lost because the PA got alot of passive gold? if you answer yes i will watch the game and post my thought on it
I played the game. Why bother even posting without watching the game and try to enlighten noobs(us)?
Go watch first if you really want to talk about someones play and the game. LD.com these days.
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On September 27 2014 09:56 Laserist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2014 09:54 TechSc2 wrote:On September 27 2014 09:47 Laserist wrote:On September 27 2014 09:20 TechSc2 wrote:On September 27 2014 09:06 Laserist wrote:I lost a game 2v5 because, 3 guy left the game. Then PA got a few kills and she became 7-8 level ahead of everyone since her team is significantly lower xp. After that she turned out to be 6 slotted and finished the game 2v5 because her team has lower level and net worth than us. We were all very low levels, with no items and basically food for her. Easy 1v5 with her buddy sven. http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/923054188Comebacks are real. So you got outplayed. The only way you can lose a 2v5 if you try to end the game too fast. 5 hero's outfarm 2 however you wanna look at it if you just splitpush and play it safe. Also a PA cannot EVER 1v5 even with 3 people extra worth of passive gold. My guess would be that the PA jumped alot of people farming alone and noone responded with TP's and PA got a massive amount of free kills which made her get alot of items that the player chose well to be nearly unkillable midgame, which then setup PA up for a good lategame set of items This shows exactly the problem that was pre 6.82. People didn't outskill opponents in game, they just picked the 2-3 OP hero's faster then the other team Why bother talking without watching the game? then why bother posting? Without watching the game right now, you are 100% confident that you played it correctly and lost because the PA got alot of passive gold? if you answer yes i will watch the game and post my thought on it I played the game. Why bother even posting without watching the game and try to enlighten noobs(us)? Go watch first if you really want to talk about someones play and the game. LD.com these days.
923054188 is the replay code. I am sure someone fucked up because you lost 5v2, but maybe the system is so broken that it causes passive XP too.
And it looks like the Sugar Pill patch has arrived.
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the bounty thing is a bad thing because it diminishes the more interesting part of the game, drafting/laning/control/decisions. The trend to just pick up a better lategame because it doesn't really matter if you lose all of your towers and get 1/2 as much farm is dumb. I hope the pro player complaints keep up because the patch is otherwise brilliant to me except for the bounty change.
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Nice. Maybe .38 is too high but a lot better for sure
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EPT
