EPT6.82 Balance Changes and Discussion Thread - Page 88
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
Meanwhile, hello Abaddon. On September 27 2014 08:09 Fleetfeet wrote: Omniknight's at 64% And bloodseeker isn't even that close to 50%, despite people declaring him OP. So like... iunno. ...dazzle and venge barely moved. I don't think "Hero savers have become more valuable" is a solid explanation. Hero savers have always had strong value in pubs. But they weren't so great in 6.81 competitive unless they were strict pieces in a siege lineup. | ||
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cecek
Czech Republic18921 Posts
On September 27 2014 08:05 Carwash wrote: that's only if you pick non-late game oriented heroes. check the stats. all hard carries are WAY up in win rate and all mid game heroes are way down. hmmmmmmm wonder why that is??? i mean shit, i don't have to defend this. Spectre is at a 62% win rate lmao. It's a joke. Let's look at the top 15 heroes by winrate: Omniknight, Spectre, Necrophos, Wraith King, Abaddon, Zeus, Elder Titan, Silencer, Centaur Warrunner, Earthshaker, Medusa, Ogre Magi, Vengeful Spirit, Witch Doctor and Jakiro. In that order. Out of these 15, only Medusa and Spectre are traditionally played as hard carries in pubs. On the other hand, Venge, Ogre, Witch Doctor, Jakiro, Silencer and Necrophos are most of the time played as supports in pubs. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Fleetfeet
Canada2553 Posts
On September 27 2014 08:13 CosmicSpiral wrote: Hero savers have always had strong value in pubs. But they weren't so great in 6.81 competitive unless they were strict pieces in a siege lineup. Still doesn't explain why no other hero saver has seen as dramatic a spike in winrate. It's probably because Omni is just as powerful as he used to be, but being entirely worthless in lane* doesn't matter as much anymore, while having the strongest defensive teamfight abilities in the game is more valuable now than ever. If it was "Hero savers" then you'd see a spike for Chen (or at least neutrality, seeing as he's gonna lose some % to mek nerf and OMG DRAGONS") and venge and dazzle and Abbadon and stuff. + Show Spoiler + Yesss I knowwwww you can't say "entirely worthless in lane" when the hero could be run in all kinds of niche dual lanes, or as mid, or whatever. The point is, you'd never be like "Okay we need a solid lane support to keep our drow alive. I know! OMNIKNIGHT." | ||
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
On September 27 2014 08:09 Fleetfeet wrote: ...dazzle and venge barely moved, and Chen is down a bunch. I don't think "Hero savers have become more valuable" is a solid explanation. Chen takes no less skill to play but his pick rate has doubled due to Aghs change. I'm pretty sure his 3 percentage point winrate drop is attributable to players picking him who shouldn't. Dazzle's powerful early-game presence, meanwhile, has been made less relevant and I think that's a decent explanation. Of the two Omni's hero-saving ability scales far higher and is just...way more powerful late game. | ||
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rabidch
United States20289 Posts
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
Networth takes into account items in your inventory stash and courier right? So if you drop components in the fountain during buildup or say drop your butterfly as your teammate dies on the other side of the map they get less gold right? If you drop a big item before securing a kill you get more gold right? | ||
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Fleetfeet
Canada2553 Posts
So no, dropping a big item before a kill does not get you more gold. Though even if it did, I'd imagine that would be hotfixed fairly quick. | ||
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cecek
Czech Republic18921 Posts
On September 27 2014 08:21 Jaeger wrote: So the kill formula takes into account networth. Networth takes into account items in your inventory stash and courier right? So if you drop components in the fountain during buildup or say drop your butterfly as your teammate dies on the other side of the map they get less gold right? If you drop a big item before securing a kill you get more gold right? That doesn't work I think. It counts dropped items too. | ||
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Laserist
Turkey4269 Posts
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Buckyman
1364 Posts
On September 27 2014 08:13 cecek wrote: Let's look at the top 15 heroes by winrate: Omniknight, Spectre, Necrophos, Wraith King, Abaddon, Zeus, Elder Titan, Silencer, Centaur Warrunner, Earthshaker, Medusa, Ogre Magi, Vengeful Spirit, Witch Doctor and Jakiro. In that order. Out of these 15, only Medusa and Spectre are traditionally played as hard carries in pubs. On the other hand, Venge, Ogre, Witch Doctor, Jakiro, Silencer and Necrophos are most of the time played as supports in pubs. Omniknight, Necrophos, Wraith King, Abaddon, Zeus, Centaur, Silencer, Vengeful Spirit and Witch Doctor were all top before. Ogre Magi, Earthshaker and Jakiro are significant improvements but were already fairly good. Ogre received a large buff, Jakiro is the most popular tower-sieger who wasn't nerfed, and idk what's up with Earthshaker. Spectre, Medusa and Elder Titan are the heroes with massive increases in win rate. Also Omniknight, but he was 2nd best even before he got buffed. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
On September 27 2014 08:27 Laserist wrote: There is a reason to be ahead in xp/gold in pro games, we called it skill, good pick and outplaying the opponent. It is not surprising better team has better xp/gold overall. Why I said this: Discussed this after a couple of TI4 losses by Na'Vi that were basically decided in the first five minutes even though the games went 20+ minutes (as opposed to the occasional 11m gg). Having a couple of support rotations go against you super-early could be way too decisive. And people talk about that being skill or whatever but so many things are luck; guessing what your opponent is going to do and being correct, well maybe skill can make you guess correctly more often but if one or two good guesses wins you the game? That's luck. Many games were weighted very heavily to the first few minutes, and if you think each one of them was a fair representation of skill I don't know what to tell you, but you're wrong. | ||
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Buckyman
1364 Posts
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Fleetfeet
Canada2553 Posts
On September 27 2014 08:32 FHDH wrote: Why I said this: Many games were weighted very heavily to the first few minutes, and if you think each one of them was a fair representation of skill I don't know what to tell you, but you're wrong. You could make a fair case for the patch attempting to address situations where one team is extremely outdrafted by the other, but you can't suddenly claim that they weren't extreme outdrafts. | ||
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TechSc2
Netherlands554 Posts
On September 27 2014 08:08 FHDH wrote: Yep this is way worse than what people were complaining about before: hard carries being made irrelevant by the 6.81 meta. Definitely not an intended indirect buff to hard carries (going along with direct buffs to them) and definitely no skew to the data caused by people thinking early leads make them nigh-invincible. I'm sure when players stop throwing bodies at buildings, I dunno, some time after the first 36 hours of the patch they've had to adjust, it will make no difference in the win rate of hard carries. Nor will everyone knowing that carries are back and they should make sure they have one instead of trying to have the game essentially won at 10-15 while the rest of the game is a formality. None of that will happen. Hero savers have gone way up in value. Old Bloodseeker players: HA HA I RUN AROUND AND KILL YOUR SUPPORTS HA HA Doesn't work the same way anymore, which is fine. Fuck those guys. Most of them aren't smart enough to adjust to this patch quickly. I think he's still stupid-strong but you have to play him very differently to get the most out of it. Can i highlight that part for the people that don't understand what exactly happened in 6.81 with the deathball meta? At 7 minutes into the game, 6.81 deathballs had 3 towers down, a significant GOLD LEAD but generally an EXP DEFICIT. So hero respawns are really low, and you can throw bodies at buildings because your item advantage will carry you to victory. Now in 6.82 if people do exactly this, rthe other team wins because throwing bodies at buildings to win is not what dota is about. And that's exactly the reason why IF now punishes trading bodies for buildings. I really think this is a super fun and well balanced patch. I've already seen so many different hero combo's that you just couldn't run before because you would be overrun by "the deathball". You win because you outskill your opponent, not because you hit buildings the fastest | ||
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
On September 27 2014 08:42 Fleetfeet wrote: You could make a fair case for the patch attempting to address situations where one team is extremely outdrafted by the other, but you can't suddenly claim that they weren't extreme outdrafts. I'm not? Unless you mean you think every time the first few minutes were dominated were "extreme outdrafts" in which case this interpretation of "extreme outdrafts" is "drafts that win the first few minutes of the game, and therefore the game." In which case yes that is something this patch targeted. You can't draft for minutes (-1)-10 now and expect that will secure you the win if it goes well. I was also referring to games in which both teams had good early-game lineups but say one or two rotations went in the wrong direction and the game went out of control. That was highly likely in the old meta. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 27 2014 08:42 Fleetfeet wrote: You could make a fair case for the patch attempting to address situations where one team is extremely outdrafted by the other, but you can't suddenly claim that they weren't extreme outdrafts. Thats fine and people accept that, but the fact that many of the games in TI4 were every short. Also the stats that are above in the thread do not take drafting into account either way. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
Not sure if it was posted already, I skipped ten pages of the thread :o + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/XDrKxSH.png) | ||
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