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On September 27 2014 05:36 Sn0_Man wrote:
I think that making fights a negative EV situation for the team in control of the game is distinctly not "a step in the right direction to force more fights" and I further submit that people suggesting otherwise are not thinking about this intelligently.
How are the current changes making fights a negative EV situation for the team in control? (I assume "EV" is "Expected Value", but correct me if that is not what you meant.)
In my opinion, the team in control of the game expects to win the fight. Therefore, in order to make the expected outcome of a fight even for both sides, the team that expects to lose the fight needs to gain more if they manage to win the fight.
I don't know if the current changes are good or not, but I certainly think there is a valid argument to be made that they could be a step in the direction of forcing more fights.
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On September 27 2014 05:37 SoylentGamer wrote:
The bounty system punishes a well farmed winning carry getting caught out or overaggressive.
I like that because it takes effort to kill carries who have gathered much money but the current system also punishes poor and easy to kill supports for the farm of their carries.
I personally think that the calculation should not take the Team Net Worth into consideration at all, and just use Victim Networth instead of both.
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I personally think that the calculation should not take the Team Net Worth into consideration at all, and just use Victim Networth instead of both.
As a full-time support I see your reasoning for this and I do think it should be tuned so dying as a support isn't overly punishing (it's just way too easy on some heroes) but if your team has a significant lead overall it should be harder to get picked off, therefore team net worth in this context is relevant for the same reason it's considered relevant elsewhere.
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On September 27 2014 06:00 FHDH wrote:Show nested quote +I personally think that the calculation should not take the Team Net Worth into consideration at all, and just use Victim Networth instead of both. As a full-time support I see your reasoning for this and I do think it should be tuned so dying as a support isn't overly punishing (it's just way too easy on some heroes) but if your team has a significant lead overall it should be harder to get picked off, therefore team net worth in this context is relevant for the same reason it's considered relevant elsewhere.
The system does take that into account. The net worth of the team is 1/4 of the equalization to calculate the bounty. The net worth of the player and their level are also important factors. You will get more gold than the last patch, but not the crazy amounts you would get for killing a farmed core like tinker or naga.
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Suicides and denies will really matter now to prevent a snowballed team from pushing the opposing team ahead.
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Liking the new ranked AP! Definitely an improvement.
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On September 27 2014 06:11 MTadept wrote:
Liking the new ranked AP! Definitely an improvement.
I wouldn't mind if they could make it go a bit faster.
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enemy tide got 130 cs in 1 hour, i have 300+. About the same gpm but he has 10 more assists.
Why bother cs guys?
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Just in time for tinker nerfs T_T
Guess Medusa going to have a good time
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I think Medusa could be one of the best carries this patch, honestly.
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On September 27 2014 06:35 Daralii wrote:
I think Medusa could be one of the best carries this patch, honestly.
I agree. Weakness in lane de-emphasized, less of a rush to fight for your carry, and tons of gold on the map to catch up with. This plus the non-trivial buffs...we're going to see some disgusting Medusas.
Also I think heroes that offer a disengagement mechanism will be highly valued for protecting leads. Abilities like Gaze and Song will be prized for this feature.
[Edit] Forgot to mention that individual carry survivability is more important now. Seriously great patch for snake lady.
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On September 27 2014 06:35 Daralii wrote:
I think Medusa could be one of the best carries this patch, honestly.
look how the winrates changed since patch for hard carries like medusa or spectre. crazy
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
Guy on reddit made a post where he analysed the winrate depending on how much xp ahead a team is at 10 minutes in the past versions. Basically, this table is the important part: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uOGZddJ.png) .
I definitely like the state of it now more than in 6.81. Being just 2k xp ahead and having a 67% winrate at 10 minutes seems pretty ridiculous, now it's just 56% for the same lead at 10 minutes. It is a huge change and will take time to get used to, but it is definitely positive, imo. Some kind of a middleground is probably better and I assume IceFrog will tweak the formulas a bit, because this bitching from the community is just absurd.
source
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so picking medusa/spectre/naga are ez fucking wins. Holy shit, just tank the fuck up with medusa, let all your towers fall, defend highground, and then win. Its actually kinda stupid, mid game heroes like lone druid are trash, they cant snowball off towers and kills the same way so their timing window to end the game is so short. Game is seriously gonna be all about hard ass carries.
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On September 27 2014 07:13 cecek wrote:Guy on reddit made a post where he analysed the winrate depending on how much xp ahead a team is at 10 minutes in the past versions. Basically, this table is the important part: . I definitely like the state of it now more than in 6.81. Being just 2k xp ahead and having a 67% winrate at 10 minutes seems pretty ridiculous, now it's just 56% for the same lead at 10 minutes. It is a huge change and will take time to get used to, but it is definitely positive, imo. Some kind of a middleground is probably better and I assume IceFrog will tweak the formulas a bit, because this bitching from the community is just absurd. source
Discussed this after a couple of TI4 losses by Na'Vi that were basically decided in the first five minutes even though the games went 20+ minutes (as opposed to the occasional 11m gg). Having a couple of support rotations go against you super-early could be way too decisive. And people talk about that being skill or whatever but so many things are luck; guessing what your opponent is going to do and being correct, well maybe skill can make you guess correctly more often but if one or two good guesses wins you the game? That's luck.
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So now that Clinkz has had the Ursa treatment, what should the optimum build be? Deso after orchid? Lifesteal?
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On September 27 2014 07:13 cecek wrote:Guy on reddit made a post where he analysed the winrate depending on how much xp ahead a team is at 10 minutes in the past versions. Basically, this table is the important part: . I definitely like the state of it now more than in 6.81. Being just 2k xp ahead and having a 67% winrate at 10 minutes seems pretty ridiculous, now it's just 56% for the same lead at 10 minutes. It is a huge change and will take time to get used to, but it is definitely positive, imo. Some kind of a middleground is probably better and I assume IceFrog will tweak the formulas a bit, because this bitching from the community is just absurd. source
This is good, but I'd like to wait and see how it is for pro games after everyone settles down on it. That'll be the data that matters IMO.
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On September 27 2014 07:13 cecek wrote:Guy on reddit made a post where he analysed the winrate depending on how much xp ahead a team is at 10 minutes in the past versions. Basically, this table is the important part: . I definitely like the state of it now more than in 6.81. Being just 2k xp ahead and having a 67% winrate at 10 minutes seems pretty ridiculous, now it's just 56% for the same lead at 10 minutes. It is a huge change and will take time to get used to, but it is definitely positive, imo. Some kind of a middleground is probably better and I assume IceFrog will tweak the formulas a bit, because this bitching from the community is just absurd. source
It's not like the bitching is unfounded. You say yourself that it'll take time to get used to. Some people are just not used to it more vocally than others.
And a 5k exp lead only amounting to a 67% chance to win (even skewed as that is by people not "playing this patch right" yet) is gross, to me. It's not like that 5k exp lead wasn't earned or given in the first place, I don't understand how making it much closer to irrelevant is a good thing.
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
It's hard to get this kind of data from pro games. Way smaller sample size, drafting as a whole affects this a bunch, etc. But I would imagine it will be less dramatic than in pubs. In general, there are less kills in pro games, less yolo dives and throws, etc.
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EPT
