EPTGeneral Discussion - Page 6490
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RuiBarbO
United States1340 Posts
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LuckoftheIrish
United States4791 Posts
On September 16 2014 07:23 Atreides wrote: Ehh. I spent a lot of time studying math and since school have just commercial fished full time. (Rather than just summers.) that said if I had come out of school with significant debt I'd say I was really really stupid. So it depends. In my case I spent maybe 20k of my own money + scholarships for undergrad and basically got paid to go to school in grad school so I don't feel like it was that much of a waste or anything. I've been told by more than a dozen professors in five or six departments across multiple disciplines that if you don't get paid to go to grad school you've done something wrong. Just to avoid misinterpretation, I mean procedurally. There's always money available to aspiring grad students if you're willing to jump through hoops to get it. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Bisu-Fan
Russian Federation3329 Posts
 also hboct and dendi have a 11-0 pubrate this month | ||
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LuckoftheIrish
United States4791 Posts
On September 16 2014 07:25 RuiBarbO wrote: 2 GB update, patch incoming? Not a balance patch. Looks like mostly toolset stuff. If you don't have the Workshop Tools enabled it's 11MB. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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tehh4ck3r
Magrathea7046 Posts
http://store.steampowered.com/news/14388/ (also apparently it adds 32-bit support for workshop tools) | ||
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LSB
United States5171 Posts
On September 16 2014 07:02 LuckoftheIrish wrote: Doubt all you want, it's already happening. Law schools are contracting, academic departments are being eliminated, student debt accumulation is more than 7% of the GDP and colleges across the country are facing massive budget shortfalls. Torte, I'm going to leave this discussion here. You've completely failed to understand my argument and any further engagement is a waste of time. Schools are aligning to the problem you identified. There is a glut of unpopular and useless degrees, in addition there is an oversupply of lawyers. Structural shifts in higher education are normal, in addition many school are adding economics, business, and computer science degrees. In addition I fail to see how debt serviced by third parties has a to deal with income in higher education. On September 16 2014 07:25 LuckoftheIrish wrote: I've been told by more than a dozen professors in five or six departments across multiple disciplines that if you don't get paid to go to grad school you've done something wrong. Just to avoid misinterpretation, I mean procedurally. There's always money available to aspiring grad students if you're willing to jump through hoops to get it. We call people who pay to go to grad school cash cows | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
On September 16 2014 06:28 Torte de Lini wrote: I think people go into university for different reasons than for career interest. That's on top of the fact that they are only eligible for certain degrees or programs if they have right grades or curriculum in school (so someone who didn't achieve very well in Mathematics, is very unlikely to get those strong career-driven fields). Are we to blame, as a society, high-schoolers for failing to achieve certain areas of their semesters or those without the aptitude to achieve in Math, Science, Physics, Biology? Or is it fair of you to dismiss everyone because they didn't all choose the same fields that pay so very well? Let's not forget that if everyone chose those fields, demand would be lower, salaries would drop and they wouldn't be as "rational" of a choice as they once were. Not to mention that the other curriculums would also lose a lot of employment and, ultimately, hurt the society's economy. I think, in short, you narrowly defined the point of university to a purely practical purpose while also failing to see how your dismissive viewpoint not only hurts your own argument hypothetically, but also from a "rational" perspective as a society. No he's right about the choice in education i think. You know prehand that liberal arts isnt such a high garantee for a job like other educations are, thats how it works. Its fine you choose an education that seems fun with less jobperspective then a normal education, but then it isnt school anymore but more daycare-like. Now de question for the young artist should be, is the education worth the debt or not? Are there other ways to reach the same goal? Arts & education are important ofcourse but op does have a valid point. | ||
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Buckyman
1364 Posts
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LuckoftheIrish
United States4791 Posts
On September 16 2014 07:37 LSB wrote: Schools are aligning to the problem you identified. There is a glut of unpopular and useless degrees, in addition there is an oversupply of lawyers. Structural shifts in higher education are normal, in addition many school are adding economics, business, and computer science degrees. In addition I fail to see how debt serviced by third parties has a to deal with income in higher education. Because student loans are guaranteed, colleges are incentivized to push as many loans as they can, regardless of the student's ability to pay back what they borrow. It's not just a structural shift; it's an actual contraction in the number of graduate seats available, which is more-or-less unprecedented in modern education. If you're interested (and there's no reason you should be) I recommend reading The New School by Glenn Reynolds. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On September 16 2014 07:40 govie wrote: No he's right about the choice in education i think. You know prehand that liberal arts isnt such a high garantee for a job like other educations are, thats how it works. Its fine you choose an education that seems fun with less jobperspective then a normal education, but then it isnt school anymore but more daycare-like. Now de question for the young artist should be, is the education worth the debt or not? Are there other ways to reach the same goal? Arts & education are important ofcourse but op does have a valid point. Let's remove Liberal Arts from the equation. Even Social Sciences simply do not pay as marginally well as other degrees: but they're quintessential for people to take. Philosophically, university should be a place to seek further knowledge on affairs that pertain to both your interest and values, intellect and perspective on the world. but even if we remove that ideology, going to university purely for a job that removes all previous debts and/or financial obligations of both itself (university debt) as well as potential of financial stability (if we are to assume that the job market of demand for newly-graduates is stable and high) ruins the point of choice within university or seeking a higher degree. I agree with OP on the suggestion that debts and cost of degrees should be proportionate to what the degree can offer you in terms of salary and career. That said, many social science degrees require a higher education (graduate school) to be fulfilling in terms of salary to be able to pay any of it. Saying you should enroll in degrees that pay well to pay back going into university in the first place feels very backwards. That's on top of blaming that person for not narrowing their life's choices to a career they may not even be interested in or remote to their actual capabilities. Minimizing other specialties as "daycare" is just circlejerking. | ||
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LuckoftheIrish
United States4791 Posts
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LuckoftheIrish
United States4791 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On September 16 2014 08:05 LuckoftheIrish wrote: Torte, there's nothing wrong with degrees in social sciences. You're arguing against a strawman. It is entirely possible to get a degree in any social science in a fiscally responsible way. The problem is that the system is set up to encourage borrowing more than one can afford, especially for degrees with limited earning potential and greater congestion. I'm not saying they're inherently wrong, I'm saying that they do not pay as well (in comparison) and thus fall outside your logic (given it will take much longer to pay that debt back and the career choices are much, much more limited and applicable to the degree [especially if you don't get that degree in conjunction with another]). from that very perspective, they are also to blame. | ||
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LuckoftheIrish
United States4791 Posts
I know you aren't saying they're wrong. That's how you've represented my argument. And you're still missing what I'm saying about school choice. | ||
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LuckoftheIrish
United States4791 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On September 16 2014 08:08 LuckoftheIrish wrote: ...That doesn't make any sense. I know you aren't saying they're wrong. That's how you've represented my argument. And you're still missing what I'm saying about school choice. I'm removing school choice and focusing on your third initial arguments: On September 16 2014 05:29 LuckoftheIrish wrote: No, I object to his fifteen-minute sequence of pronouncements about Swedish politics, kicked off by an admission that he's totally ignorant. (And it's also entirely possible to get out of school without debt if you're prepared. I went to a college that charged between $35k and $40k a year and had roughly $5,000 of debt when I graduated. Paid off within a year. It also helps if your degree is in something that will get you hired.) On September 16 2014 06:01 LuckoftheIrish wrote: Amusingly, I triple-majored in history, classics and Asian Studies. None of those things are even remotely worthwhile. On the other hand, a buddy of mine in high school got his Master Electrician's license and is making $150,000 a year. It just takes a certain amount of foresight and the willingness to look at things rationally and without romance. No matter how many professors tell you otherwise, or how stupid it sounds, a degree in Gender Studies or Creative Writing qualifies you to work as a barista, while a certification in pipefitting guarantees that you'll make enough money to do whatever you want to do for fun. On September 16 2014 06:20 LuckoftheIrish wrote: If people knowingly make shitty decisions, they shouldn't be surprised when those decisions have consequences. If you take out loans to pay for an expensive liberal arts college, and you get a degree that doesn't have career potential, it is no one's fault but your own that you're stuck in debt. It's no different to buying anything else you can't afford. Argument 1: It's entirely possible to get out of school without debt if you're prepared + get a degree that gets you hired. Argument 2: Must have the foresight and rational thought to pick degrees that will land you jobs. That means picking degree in pipefitting or electrician license over certain others. Argument 3: It's your fault for getting a degree that doesn't have a high-demand career-wise. Individually, there's a smart line of logic. But it's not only too idealistic to expect everyone to do that (or think that way), it's just not possible on a societal level. It also backfires in the coming years if everyone went into those degrees. Minimizing your point of view by saying school choices help reduce how much debt you will incur doesn't remove the stigmatization set by your flawed perspective. On September 16 2014 06:45 LuckoftheIrish wrote: You've completely forgotten the big thing about higher education; specifically, there are lots of different options that serve different communities. When you choose a college or university, you're making a decision as a consumer. And you have to pick the option that is right for you. Syracuse University costs roughly $60,000 a year. If you can pay for it with scholarships and grants (or you have rich parents), then going to SU to study Latin is fine. If you're going to take out $50,000 of loans every year, then going to SU to study Latin is a huge gamble, and maybe you'd be better off at the University of Virginia, which costs a third as much for a comparable or superior education. This is why top students in North Carolina end up going to the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill rather than Duke; the two schools are both excellent, but one costs $24,000 and the other $64,000. There's nothing wrong with going to school to study liberal arts, social science, music; whatever you want. The problem is the mismatch of cost, debt and earning potential. There are a lot of reasons for this, ranging from popular culture to higher ed as a boutique industry to increased regulatory costs, and if you want to learn more there's a huge body of journalism on this topic as the American higher education bubble is in the process of collapsing. Regardless, attending university is almost certainly the single biggest financial commitment a person will make in their life. Treating it as anything other than practical is a mistake. Here's your school choice answer, just for posterity. It doesn't do away with what you're saying. Like I said, I agree, personally, that you should go into degrees that set you on a good path for a finance-worry free life. I just don't think such a rigid blameful viewpoint is both fair and possible to dictate publicly | ||
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tehh4ck3r
Magrathea7046 Posts
On September 16 2014 08:15 LuckoftheIrish wrote: How would people feel about removing or drastically lowering the heal component from DP ultimate? i would rather have the ult changed to magic damage (but it still deals damage to towers) | ||
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Yoshi-
Germany10227 Posts
On September 16 2014 07:02 LuckoftheIrish wrote: . I'm going to leave this discussion here. yo if you say sth like that at least go with it and not retract it immediately | ||
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