General Discussion - Page 265
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rabidch
United States20289 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On March 22 2012 06:35 Shikyo wrote: Okay good so I guess I'm not just being terrible because that's what I've experienced as well. So what would be ideal to start with, the pull camp? Basically, you should start by checking the hard camp closest to base. If it's trolls, you can do it, if not, go to the easy camp. After that you can move on to either of the medium camps (while also checking the hard camp for trolls if you're Sentinel). If you didn't get trolls and aren't 2 yet, you might want to pull to hit level 2 (if your support is nice and the enemy team didn't ward your pull, they should stack it at 0:52 and pull at 1:15--it's OK if they split the XP with you because you just need to hit 2 off that pull--though obviously if they let you get the full XP/gold from the pull it will help your development a LOT). Obviously you need to adapt accordingly if camps get warded. Item start should be QB+tangoes+3 clarities+2 branches. QB+RoP+tangoes+2 branches is also OK, but less flexible because you're banking on finishing Basilius before your mana runs dry. EDIT: Found it! Posting this because I don't want to see any TLers doing that stupid shit I saw in HoN where some guy would "lane till 3" then go jungle after. + Show Spoiler + Lycanthrope Guide Skill Order Max wolves first and take ult when you can. This is pretty much non-negotiable. Between Howl and Feral Impulse, you take Feral Impulse at early levels, as mana prohibits your Howl usage, and it's not really well-used farming jungle. Usually I'll take one rank for pushing or doing Roshan around level 8-9 though. Items Starting The two most reasonable starts are either: Tangoes+3xClarities+2xBranches+QB or Tangoes+Clarity+Branch+RoP+QB The first is the most standard start played in competitive games. QB gives you the greatest ability to do camps fast, and the consumables keep you going until you get Basilius. With 3 clarities, you also have some wiggle room with regard to mana, if you need Wolves for an early scuffle or get unlucky with camp spawns. The second item start is geared toward a faster Basilius, but is decidedly more fragile. Basilius lets you cast Wolves every time they run out and not run out of mana, but if you get hard camps and your wolves are dying faster than that, your mana will get somewhat strained, and you might need to ferry more clarities out. After that, my followup will look something like this (each set of items represents 1 trip on the courier out to you): Starting->Basilius->Sobi Mask+RoR->Vlads->Medallion Vlads and Medallion are pretty much non-negotiable as your first major items. The early 2nd Sobi Mask is to smooth out your mana management so that by the time you're levels 6-8, you can afford to use Howl/Ult for ganks/pushes. Boots and TP generally will have to fit somewhere in there, but there's no need to finish Treads until after these two items because Lycan's ultimate gives him max movespeed. Grab Stick/Wand if you feel you need it at some point, but it's not really a high priority. After this, you have two primary core item choices. You get one or the other, and you generally choose based on which is more fitting for the game in question (though both can be fine) BKB - The natural big followup for a strength carry. Gives you damage, gives you beefiness, and gives you magic immunity. Not much to say. Necronomicon - You're not quite as beefy, and you don't hit quite as hard, but there are a couple utility advantages of Necronomicon over BKB: - True Sight--the obvious one. The Necronomicon 3 Warrior has true sight, so as soon as you get to it, this can be very useful against stealth heroes (or just for de-warding). - Feedback/Mana Burn - again, pretty obvious. The Warrior has Feedback, the Archer has Mana Burn. These can be extremely valuable against key heroes that are mana-reliant but don't get enough of it. - Pushing power - The Necronomicon summons are GREAT for pushing towers. Not only do they add two more bodies to hit the tower with, the Archer's 9% MS/AS aura synergizes well with Howl, and ups the rate at which you demolish towers even further. - Mana - Necronomicon gives a Strength hero a pretty respectable amount of Int to work with. Obviously it's not the most amazing stat for you, but against certain heroes that can dig into your mana (e.g. Invoker, Anti-mage), it's useful to buffer your pre-fight mana pool a bit, so you don't get screwed. After that, it's on to lategame luxuries: Assault Cuirass/Heart - Survivability items that also give you (and your wolves, in the case of AC) a nice chunk of damage MKB - Usually my choice for a lategame damage item. It's cost-efficient, and scales well, especially since you'll probably need it against Butterfly-wielding Agi carries. Desolator - Another damage option. This one is slightly weaker, though it can still be nice due to its synergy with the Medallion -armor and the fact that your damage output is entirely physical. It tends to fall off lategame once people start buffering their armor values high enough to make -armor less scary. HotD/Satanic - Expensive, but can be pretty good if you finish it. HotD is nice to keep for a while because having a max-movespeed Centaur to set up an AoE stun can be pretty ridiculous (all summoned units gain max MS during your ult). Sheepstick - Uncommon, but can be a good choice. It ends any potential mana issues you could possibly have, and vastly improves your solo-killing power by giving you CC to work with. Manta Style - Also uncommon, but can be quite fun. The Agi gain isn't great, but you get a nice chunk of good stats, and the Illusions are great with your ultimate (since they gain the movespeed boost as well). Be sure to have it with Necronomicon and HotD for the ultimate zookeeper Lycanthrope. Basic Jungling Before continuing, read this if you haven't: http://www.playdota.com/learn/jungle. Basic jungling mechanics that you'll need on any jungling hero. Jungling on Lycanthrope takes a bit more finesse than the other junglers currently in the pool. Done right, he can outpace almost all of them (out-leveling even the solo lanes), but he has to be a bit picky on camps to not put himself in danger. Scout with your wolves at level 1. Spawn a set of wolves at ~55 seconds till lane creeps spawn and again at ~25 seconds till lane creeps spawn. If you can't make the first timing (because you took too long to decide on your hero or something), just spawn a set at ~40-45 seconds till spawn (so they last long enough to see the rune). Use your wolves to scout into the enemy jungle--you can often determine their lane arrangements based on which side of the jungle people are waiting for the rune spawns on (which your team may or may not choose to adjust for). Try not to let your wolves die, since they are worth gold and XP, and make sure to get them back to the rune spawns before 0:00. If a teammate isn't coming to get the rune, you actually can order your wolves to attack and destroy the rune, preventing enemy heroes from taking it. Spawn a set of wolves in the fountain at 0:09, and wait about a bit for mana. Then tell all your units to go to the hard camp near mid. This gets you there precisely at 0:30 when they spawn. Note: Your wolves will get there slightly before you--make sure they wait for you somewhere that doesn't have vision of the hard camp, because if they have vision at 0:30, they will block the camp from spawning. What happens next depends on whether you lucked out and got Trolls at the hard camp. If there are Trolls, you can do the camp, hit 2, then move to the easy camp. If there are not trolls, then you'll have to skip this camp and come back later. In that case, start with the easy camp. For all camps, the mechanics of doing the camp are pretty much the same--let your wolves tank the creeps (if possible--some creeps aggro automatically to you), then move Lycan + the injured wolf away when they get low so that the creeps aggro to the other wolf. In general, the wolves' HP is more significant than their damage, so you want them to do the tanking. That said, there may be situations where you have surplus tangoes and tanking some creeps to keep a set of wolves longer may be worthwhile. After the easy camp, it starts to get a bit tricky, and goes by experience. Your next move is to go to one of the medium camps (the pull-able one if the laners stacked it and are OK with you taking XP/gold from the pull, and the other one if not). If the other hard camp has Trolls, you can do that camp as well. In general, you're going to be rotating between the easy, medium, and hard camps, getting some gold/xp from the pull-able hard camp as the laners' stacking/pulling allows. If they're not stacking/pulling, then feel free to do the camp yourself. Send your items to yourself as soon as it's possible using the courier. Send extra consumables to yourself if you need to. Use your clarities often, but make sure you don't get them interrupted (see the camps guide below for the mechanics of that). After you get Vlad's, you can do Ancients fairly easily. You can also send your wolves to do separate camps (obviously this doesn't kill the camps faster, but if you focus on a few camps that are close together and let your wolves do stuff like killing the easy camp, you can squeeze out more camps and therefore more gold every minute). After you get Medallion, make sure you use Medallion on jungle creeps to speed up the process of killing them. Pulling/Stacking: In general, you don't really want to wait on stacking camps yourself. If you're about to do a camp at x:52, and you think you can manage the stack, it can get you a little extra XP to stack that camp before doing it, but don't go out of your way to go and stack camps you won't get to for a while. You have no AoE creep-killing ability so you still take a while to clear stacked camps. If the short lane is not pulling, go ahead and do their medium camp. If the short lane did a stack->pull, take some XP/lasthits if they're OK with it. Don't bother if they just did a single pull. It's not worth your time to split an un-stacked medium camp's XP with someone. If your short lane is waiting to stack, DON'T DO THE DAMN CAMP. Wait for them to stack first, THEN see if they're OK with you sticking around for the XP/gold. Doing a camp that the short laners were about to stack fucks with their lane controlling ability and doesn't get any extra XP for you because it'd still be 2 camps worth of creeps. A brief overview of the camps In the interest of conserving space, I'm not going to go over every single camp, and what they are, but just mention camps briefly and how hard they are/what you should keep in mind. Probably the most relevant things to keep in mind about each camp are the abilities, and the aggro patterns. Easy camp - all easy camp spawns are pretty much the same for Lycan. Doable at level 1, nothing special. Kobolds, Trolls, and Banshee camps have normal aggro patterns, so you can clarity on them. Harpies aggro to melee heroes attacking them, and Gnolls apply poison to all targets before choosing to stick to one, so don't clarity on those camps. Troll camp (Hard) - Probably THE best camp spawn for you in terms of difficulty vs. reward. Gives good gold, gives good XP (enough to get you to level 2), and doable from level 1. Getting Trolls at both hard camps from the start puts you on pace to get something like level 9 in 9 minutes. Note that the Dark Troll Warlord aggros to melee heroes attacking him, so again, you can't clarity on them. Golems/Ogres/Satyrs (Medium) - All these medium camps are sort of the same--average difficulty medium camps that have no special AoE abilities and default aggro patterns. Doable at level 1-2 with some finesse, and takes no real effort after level 3. Wolves (Medium) - Like the above, except that the big wolf has an aura (so you should kill him first), and the wolves have an aggro pattern that favors attacking low-HP heroes (so you can clarity on this camp if you're careful about it). Centaurs (Medium/Hard) - Can spawn at either the medium or the hard camp. Not terribly hard after level 3, but bear in mind that the big Centaur will stomp once 3 targets are in range (if you micro it properly, you can dodge the stomp). It also re-acquires targets after stomping. You can clarity on this camp, but be somewhat careful about it. Wildkin (Hard) - These are pretty manageable at 4 or 5, since they don't have AoE abilities. The big one aggros to melee heroes and hits pretty hard, but if you have tangoes left or your RoR already, it shouldn't matter. Just don't clarity on this camp. Satyrs (Hard) - Doable at level 1, but often will take too much damage for it to be worth it till level 3. The big Satyr aggros to you if you're at low HP, and tries to shockwave when it's under attack by 2 or more units, so using clarities is unreliable. If you arrange yourself and your wolves in a triangle around the big Satyr, he can only shockwave one of you at once. Furbolgs (Hard) - Without question the hardest camp for Lycan. Doable at 3-4 with 2 sets of wolves (e.g. start the camp with a set of injured wolves to tank the stomp, and summon a fresh set when they die). Even at level 5-7, before you get Vlad's you or your wolves will take a big pounding doing this camp. Midgame and Lategame Midgame is where Lycan really shines. Particularly around the 12-15 mark, when you become Roshan-capable, that's the point in the game where Lycan starts to take over the game, maintaining his presence until he gets BKB and after he runs down his BKB uses. Roshan You can solo Rosh the moment you get Medallion+Vlads. Technically you can do it with just Vlad's, but this takes much longer, requires more micro, and gets you to lower HP, and is therefore not recommended. Medallion makes doing Rosh fast, easy, and safe (you take ~30 seconds, are full HP the entire time, can keep your ult on reserve as an escape, and require no special micro). Start Rosh with a reasonably fresh set of wolves (fresh meaning they've both got 3/4+ HP, and won't run out before they die, but the wolves CD is almost ready). Also make sure that Howl is not on CD. You don't have to have your ult up, but having it ready as an escape is good if you get caught. Always keep Medallion debuff up on Rosh. Let the wolves tank the damage. You can do some cute shit trying to juggle aggro, but doing it incorrectly (or even Rosh getting a bunch of bash procs on you) will just end up slowing you down, and it's really not necessary. When your first set of wolves dies, immediately spawn a new pair. Rosh should die before your 2nd set of wolves dies, or shortly after (depending on how fresh your first set of wolves was). That's it! You'll gain 1-2 levels, a TON of gold for your team, and the Aegis. Ganking One mistake that many starting Lycans will make: ganking too much too early. Lycan's kit is not that good for ganking, particularly before level 6. Help your teammates in sticky situations and go collect free kills in lanes, but take note of your development. Lycan is a very tempo-dependent jungler--if he gets rolling he can spiral out of control, but if you screw up your early development, it will burn you a lot later. Prioritize your development, at the very least until you get Vlad's at which point you get a lot more flexibility. Pushing The other thing that Lycan is an absolute MONSTER at doing. So much so, that you can actually get to the point that if you're solo-pushing, you can often push faster than even 3 heroes on the enemy team. Lycanthrope takes towers INSANELY fast. Look for open towers with good creep waves pushing to them, pop Howl, and go to town. If the enemy doesn't TP quickly, the tower will drop in almost no time at all. Suppressing Enemy Carries Despite his strongly-scaling physical DPS, Lycanthrope still is awkward lategame against true hard carries (Faceless, Anti-mage, Spectre, etc.). As such, it is important to abuse his strong midgame 1v1 power to suppress the enemy carries. Remember this: during the midgame, almost NOBODY can 1v1 you as Lycanthrope, and if you have Aegis and your ultimate up, and scout carefully with your wolves, you are insanely hard to gank. Use this to your advantage. Find the enemy carry, harass him, and fight him. Make it uncomfortable for him to farm. If he shows up in lane, go to that lane, force him off the lane, and possibly just shove down the tower to make his farming less safe. If he's in the jungle, scout him out with your wolves, and force him out of his jungle. Once you have the Aegis, suppressing the enemy carry and taking towers go hand in hand to make up Lycanthrope's midgame--build up your team's gold advantage (through towers and Rosh), and make it hard for your opponents to close up the gold gap (by suppressing their ability to farm). Teamfighting Not a whole lot to say for Lycan's teamfighting. Midgame, you're a carry with the power to kill anybody. Lategame, you focus on chasing down kill-able targets. Remember to use your item actives (BKB, Nec, MEDALLION, etc.), activate Howl and ultimate as the fight starts, and look for high-priority targets to hunt down. Don't underestimate the killing power of your wolves on their own. Against a support who's under-leveled, the Wolves can virtually chase them out of the fight by themselves. | ||
NB
Netherlands12045 Posts
On March 22 2012 06:42 TheYango wrote: Basically, you should start by checking the hard camp closest to base. If it's trolls, you can do it, if not, go to the easy camp. After that you can move on to either of the medium camps (while also checking the hard camp for trolls if you're Sentinel). If you didn't get trolls and aren't 2 yet, you might want to pull to hit level 2 (if your support is nice and the enemy team didn't ward your pull, they should stack it at 0:52 and pull at 1:15--it's OK if they split the XP with you because you just need to hit 2 off that pull--though obviously if they let you get the full XP/gold from the pull it will help your development a LOT). Obviously you need to adapt accordingly if camps get warded. Item start should be QB+tangoes+3 clarities+2 branches. QB+RoP+tangoes+2 branches is also OK, but less flexible because you're banking on finishing Basilius before your mana runs dry. hmmm isnt it supposed to be: start at easy use 1 wolf to pull medium camp pull easy camp with heroes kill easy camp 2nd time (lv2) kill 2nd medium camp / pull medium camp to lane... etc may be im confused with sylla, not sure | ||
Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
or even better you check if you have trolls, do the ez camp twice in a row regardless, then do the trolls if it's there, otherwise go do the medium camp pulling helps obviously but it's not necessary | ||
Zlasher
United States9129 Posts
On March 22 2012 02:08 Numy wrote: That makes him sound like quite a big douchebag? Is being a douchebag the quality that makes a fanclub? I'm not a fan of his, I think doing that is pretty stupid and a waste of everyones time, not light cute funny trolling On March 22 2012 02:14 NB wrote: nah, its just funny trolling for fun between friends :-/... you see losira and MKP hugging and assume they are gay? -_- You're an idiot if you think those two as analogous On March 22 2012 05:28 Candadar wrote: I'm curious, other than Morphling, who Linken is really good on? I realize it's a situational item, much like many items are -- but I see so many people saying Linkens is so good on Morph and I was wondering if there was anyone else? It's such an interesting item and I'm just wondering why it isn't used far more often. Squishy Heroes that do skill based damage with escape mechanisms. QoP can use it, Storm Spirit can use it. It's not exactly core on either of them but can be used. | ||
NB
Netherlands12045 Posts
On March 22 2012 06:51 Shikyo wrote: Okay, and his build is something like vlads, treads, BKB Basher etc? How about midas? And when to go for a necronomicon? And what else =S BKB is always a core for str carry unless if you are naix then its optional. vlad is needed for rosh. depend on farm/kill you could get orb of venom early on to get skadi later instead of basher. Midas isnt that great on lycan (imo) bc you want to finish the game pretty early on by taking down towers rosh etc. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On March 22 2012 06:49 NB wrote: hmmm isnt it supposed to be: start at easy use 1 wolf to pull medium camp pull easy camp with heroes kill easy camp 2nd time (lv2) kill 2nd medium camp / pull medium camp to lane... etc may be im confused with sylla, not sure I don't know, but I've never seen Chinese Lycan players do any stacking/pulling shenanigans with Lycan aside from stacking camps you happen to be by x:52, or pulling if you're behind and need to pull to get a safe level-up. It's really not necessary because you clear shit fast enough anyway, and engaging a double stack only serves to make your life more dangerous. On March 22 2012 06:51 Shikyo wrote: Okay, and his build is something like vlads, treads, BKB Basher etc? How about midas? And when to go for a necronomicon? And what else =S Vlads->Medallion->Treads->BKB or Necronomicon->situational stuff afterwards (see the spoiler I edited into my post). AC is probably the most common followup. Medallion is necessary because of how it smooths out doing Rosh. Without it, you have to micro your wolves, it takes ~1 min, and is risky because you have to tank Rosh some of the time. With Medallion, it takes under 30 seconds, you stay full HP the whole time, never tank Rosh, and don't have to micro anything other than activating Medallion. Necronomicon is worse than BKB for teamfighting but better for pushing. Pick it over BKB if you want to make use of that, or if Necronomicon's situational utility (true sight, mana burn, etc.) are noticeably relevant. Midas is a bad choice for Lycan. Lycan actually doesn't have that fantastic of a lategame. His strength is that you absolutely shut out the midgame once you get your first Rosh up to the point when your BKB starts to be only 6/5 seconds. You want to maximize your strength in that time-frame. | ||
Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
edit: Right, I knew you go Medallion but I forgot it >_< | ||
crms
United States11933 Posts
On March 22 2012 06:35 NB wrote: brace urself, the imbalance heroes are coming... next week sylla, after that techies -> GG i hope never techies. pubs are bad enough as it is. | ||
Dead9
United States4725 Posts
necro's really good if they don't have many aoe disables; it's way more damage and utility than you'll get out of any other item, the only problem is necrobook minions can't be bkb'd so aoe disables hurt you a lot it's also pretty good against heroes that need their mana like antimage and morph | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Necrobook+Manta+HotD. Pop ulti and all your minions have 522 MS. On March 22 2012 06:52 Dead9 wrote: you can just do the ez camp twice in a row if the hard camp isn't trolls or even better you check if you have trolls, do the ez camp twice in a row regardless, then do the trolls if it's there, otherwise go do the medium camp I like doing the Trolls first in that situation because you can clarity on most of the easy camps, whereas if you do easy camp first, then Trolls, you can't clarity on on the Trolls because of their aggro pattern, meaning you have to wait for your mana for a while before you can get your next set of wolves after that. On March 22 2012 06:52 Dead9 wrote: pulling helps obviously but it's not necessary Yeah, usually you only resort to pulling if they warded the easy camp, and none of the other available camps are easy enough for you to do without taking too much damage--then pulling lets you get a safe and easy level 2. | ||
Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
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Raekhor
Belgium97 Posts
On March 22 2012 07:57 Nevuk wrote: Is steam down? Yes | ||
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
edit: you should also put in your guide that lycan form gives all units you own max MS, therefore necro books will be hasted as well double edit: see it below, just wanted to say it'd be good to have it in the guide itself | ||
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Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
also that is one sick guide. | ||
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
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Dubzex
United States6994 Posts
http://www.soundboard.com/sb/wehsing.aspx | ||
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
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kineticSYN
United States909 Posts
too good for words | ||
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