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Netherlands45349 Posts
On November 01 2011 02:00 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 00:28 Sgonzo wrote:
uhhhmmmm not to be a hater but consumables are used heavily at high levels in LoL it all depends upon your character Of course but in Dota/Dota2/HoN, there is more consumable. And some consumable dissipate when attacked upon. Also you dont get the instant teleport back to base so you must conserve what you have and be more worried about harass. Also warding and counter warding is alot more key since not seeing a gank is instant death since the game is much more fast pace compare to LoL. Also there are SHIT SHIT ton of CC (crowd control) in dota/dota2/HoN and like mentioned above, you must learn how to use these and when not to use these. Such as coordinating it correctly to stun lock. LoL you rarely see any character that can stun and when they can they usually only stun from 1 sec - 2 sec at the most but in dota 2, almost every single character has 1 and if not 2 CC such as a stun or snare or something around that. I think a good good habit to break when playing dota from your transition is DONT rely to much on tower. In dota, it much much more easy to tower dive. So if you think you + 1 tower vs 2 guys would be safe, you are WRONG! Shit can turn around fast if you dont pay close attention. This is allowed because Dota has TP scroll and you must rely on your team mate to TP in to assist you. Basically after lvl 6, you need to stop relying on tower as much since I know LoL people love tower hugging. Also another big key is Denys. Which is a big big key but you may not think it alot but now you need to balance out when to harass, farm, and deny. This is much much harder to do because you will also need to look at mini map for possible ganks. I would recommend HoN since it currently free and is basically the same thing as dota 1 but with more tweak. Even most of the item will be the same. I think people recommending Dota 1 is a bad example simply because you need to buy the game, and not as much people play on it anymore and the match making is terrible. Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 01:18 Ack1027 wrote:
This is a pretty easy question to answer for yourself. Just figure out what you want to do in dota 2, or what you're trying to do. Are you trying to train yourself before you play it so you aren't completely lost? Or do you want to be really good at dota 2?
Aside from all the little specific details, the thing that matters the most is that if you want to be prepared for dota 2, the very best way bar none for ANY player from ANY game is to play dota 1. Dota 2 is widely known to be as close a port as possible to the original game. The entire mindset, how you perceive the game is the most important thing you can learn at this point, and it is only by experiencing dota 1 that you can hope to apply what you've learned to dota 2. Why do you think dota 1 players are transitioning so smoothly? This isn't like sc2 where bw and war 3 players can conglomerate and succeed at varying levels. Dota 1 pros are by far more populous in number, and many pros from hon are former dota pros themselves or played a shit ton before they moved.
There's lots of free ways to play war3. This hon is free to play argument is true and fine, but hon is not the same [ in the important ways that matter ] to dota1. Please don't let anyone tell you this lie. Not trying to start a large debate but what important factor are different about HoN and Dota 1? I havent played HoN for too long myself but it feel about the same does it not?
Different heroes(some are ported some arent, and some of the ported ones are changed), heroes are build differently, metagame is more favored towards ranged carries, no urn, no smoke of deceit, I believe the map is different to allow the sentinel better access to roshan.
top of my head.
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I've been over it a lot of times and most people who've never played competitively don't agree.
1. The terrain is different. This effects team fight and skirmish dynamics, juking, warding.
2. If you rate attack animations in dota on a scale from 1-10 [ with 10 being the easiest/best ] then almost all of hon's attack animations are 7 or higher. At the most basic level, if you give crystal maiden to the hands of a pro like 13abyknight or ZSMJ they will rape a pubber even if they are playing viper. But if a pro plays cm vs another pro, they have very little chance of overcoming, or if they do its a great accomplishment. This permeates into everything, farming, denying, tower denying, last hitting, to timing kills based of DOTs like doom or shadow strike.
3. In hon you have way more options for movespeed. I don't play hon but I have friends who play it and they've told me there's been shit like AOE phase boots and things that make you run faster as long as you keep running. This means you don't have to worry as much about positioning. Some of the highest level play you can see from pro supports is how they position themselves or bait their carries/initiators in team fights.
4. Hon items are different. There's no equivalent for things like Nome's wisdom in dota. Just by being different it will lead to different gameplay. And as kipsate mentioned, dota has urn and smoke of deceit.
5. Hon's hero design is much different from Icefrog. Lots of hon heroes come into the game with stuns/slows/aoe/range/movespeed buff/silence all on one hero. <-- not altogether of course, but some combination of these things.
Basically even if you ignore all those points, just ask yourself...if hon and dota are the same in gameplay, then do you only play hon because it's better graphics and matchmaking? No, hon does a lot of things differently. Look at someone like Chu, among the best to ever play Hon. He was a low-to-mid pro in dota. If you asked him if the games were the same, he'd probably say no. He's looking forward to dota 2 for a reason.
Dota is icefrog's creation. Dota2 is also under his creative leadership. Hon is not. League of legends is not. Just by this fact alone you should be able to see you will benefit from playing dota 1, the game icefrog is essentially drawing from to create dota 2.
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On November 01 2011 02:19 Ack1027 wrote:
I've been over it a lot of times and most people who've never played competitively don't agree.
1. The terrain is different. This effects team fight and skirmish dynamics, juking, warding.
2. If you rate attack animations in dota on a scale from 1-10 [ with 10 being the easiest/best ] then almost all of hon's attack animations are 7 or higher. At the most basic level, if you give crystal maiden to the hands of a pro like 13abyknight or ZSMJ they will rape a pubber even if they are playing viper. But if a pro plays cm vs another pro, they have very little chance of overcoming, or if they do its a great accomplishment. This permeates into everything, farming, denying, tower denying, last hitting, to timing kills based of DOTs like doom or shadow strike.
3. In hon you have way more options for movespeed. I don't play hon but I have friends who play it and they've told me there's been shit like AOE phase boots and things that make you run faster as long as you keep running. This means you don't have to worry as much about positioning. Some of the highest level play you can see from pro supports is how they position themselves or bait their carries/initiators in team fights.
4. Hon items are different. There's no equivalent for things like Nome's wisdom in dota. Just by being different it will lead to different gameplay. And as kipsate mentioned, dota has urn and smoke of deceit.
5. Hon's hero design is much different from Icefrog. Lots of hon heroes come into the game with stuns/slows/aoe/range/movespeed buff/silence all on one hero. <-- not altogether of course, but some combination of these things.
Basically even if you ignore all those points, just ask yourself...if hon and dota are the same in gameplay, then do you only play hon because it's better graphics and matchmaking? No, hon does a lot of things differently. Look at someone like Chu, among the best to ever play Hon. He was a low-to-mid pro in dota. If you asked him if the games were the same, he'd probably say no. He's looking forward to dota 2 for a reason.
Dota is icefrog's creation. Dota2 is also under his creative leadership. Hon is not. League of legends is not. Just by this fact alone you should be able to see you will benefit from playing dota 1, the game icefrog is essentially drawing from to create dota 2.
This is pretty accurate, tho the differences aren't that big, the attack animation thing is a definite difference, but the attack animation change comes far more from the engine change than any deliberate change in stats and is probably closer to that of Dota2
The boots thing is really just the choice for supports, in Hon supports can be reasonably useful with 800 gold (+100spd while not in combat) while DotA supports tend to go for mana boots for speed and teamfights, this allows for supports in Hon to be "poorer" while remaining effective, and drastically changes things like trilanes and roaming, whereas the aoe phase is really just a modified Jango
Chu was a lot better at Dota than you give him credit for, he was part of the Korean national team and genuinely gave Chinese teams trouble in several Asian tourneys in 08 and 09, which is at least on par with top Western Teams of the same time
HoN essentially copied dota at its conception and was for a long time under advice from icefrog, however, once icefrog got picked up for dota2 by valve, they've diverged significant from DotA
the only hero with "stuns/slows/aoe/range/movespeed buff/silence" is invoker ;p
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On November 01 2011 02:19 Ack1027 wrote:
I've been over it a lot of times and most people who've never played competitively don't agree.
1. The terrain is different. This effects team fight and skirmish dynamics, juking, warding.
2. If you rate attack animations in dota on a scale from 1-10 [ with 10 being the easiest/best ] then almost all of hon's attack animations are 7 or higher. At the most basic level, if you give crystal maiden to the hands of a pro like 13abyknight or ZSMJ they will rape a pubber even if they are playing viper. But if a pro plays cm vs another pro, they have very little chance of overcoming, or if they do its a great accomplishment. This permeates into everything, farming, denying, tower denying, last hitting, to timing kills based of DOTs like doom or shadow strike.
3. In hon you have way more options for movespeed. I don't play hon but I have friends who play it and they've told me there's been shit like AOE phase boots and things that make you run faster as long as you keep running. This means you don't have to worry as much about positioning. Some of the highest level play you can see from pro supports is how they position themselves or bait their carries/initiators in team fights.
4. Hon items are different. There's no equivalent for things like Nome's wisdom in dota. Just by being different it will lead to different gameplay. And as kipsate mentioned, dota has urn and smoke of deceit.
5. Hon's hero design is much different from Icefrog. Lots of hon heroes come into the game with stuns/slows/aoe/range/movespeed buff/silence all on one hero. <-- not altogether of course, but some combination of these things.
Basically even if you ignore all those points, just ask yourself...if hon and dota are the same in gameplay, then do you only play hon because it's better graphics and matchmaking? No, hon does a lot of things differently. Look at someone like Chu, among the best to ever play Hon. He was a low-to-mid pro in dota. If you asked him if the games were the same, he'd probably say no. He's looking forward to dota 2 for a reason.
Dota is icefrog's creation. Dota2 is also under his creative leadership. Hon is not. League of legends is not. Just by this fact alone you should be able to see you will benefit from playing dota 1, the game icefrog is essentially drawing from to create dota 2.
1. I dont think this effect the game that much. It just make different area more important than other. I think if Dota 2 used the same map as HoN, I doubt it would be that dramatic except Rosh of course.
2. I definitely noticed this for sure
3. There is no such thing as AOE phase boot that i can recall but there is a boot that if you are out of combat for certain duration then you gain quiet a bit of movement speed. This boot I consider quiet redicluas as well and I understand your point on this boots
4. Indeed there are differences in item but the majority of the item are the same such as SnY, bkb, linken, mjolinar, mkb, basher and majority of the boots etc etc etc...
5. Well the reason most hero come into the game some kind of CC is because most of the original hero have some sort of CC as well. Can you really point out 5 hero that doesnt have some sort of CC without looking it up? If the new hero doesnt come with some sort of CC then they will be obsolete and too weak. It just part of dota to have alot of CC.
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Play LoL or HoN and just learn how to last hit really good. That's the most important thing going from one to the other. DOTA/DOTA2 has a lot more last hitting as you can deny by last hitting your own mininons. Other than that just playing any MOBA will help you into your transition to dota2.
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On November 01 2011 03:18 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 02:19 Ack1027 wrote:
I've been over it a lot of times and most people who've never played competitively don't agree.
1. The terrain is different. This effects team fight and skirmish dynamics, juking, warding.
2. If you rate attack animations in dota on a scale from 1-10 [ with 10 being the easiest/best ] then almost all of hon's attack animations are 7 or higher. At the most basic level, if you give crystal maiden to the hands of a pro like 13abyknight or ZSMJ they will rape a pubber even if they are playing viper. But if a pro plays cm vs another pro, they have very little chance of overcoming, or if they do its a great accomplishment. This permeates into everything, farming, denying, tower denying, last hitting, to timing kills based of DOTs like doom or shadow strike.
3. In hon you have way more options for movespeed. I don't play hon but I have friends who play it and they've told me there's been shit like AOE phase boots and things that make you run faster as long as you keep running. This means you don't have to worry as much about positioning. Some of the highest level play you can see from pro supports is how they position themselves or bait their carries/initiators in team fights.
4. Hon items are different. There's no equivalent for things like Nome's wisdom in dota. Just by being different it will lead to different gameplay. And as kipsate mentioned, dota has urn and smoke of deceit.
5. Hon's hero design is much different from Icefrog. Lots of hon heroes come into the game with stuns/slows/aoe/range/movespeed buff/silence all on one hero. <-- not altogether of course, but some combination of these things.
Basically even if you ignore all those points, just ask yourself...if hon and dota are the same in gameplay, then do you only play hon because it's better graphics and matchmaking? No, hon does a lot of things differently. Look at someone like Chu, among the best to ever play Hon. He was a low-to-mid pro in dota. If you asked him if the games were the same, he'd probably say no. He's looking forward to dota 2 for a reason.
Dota is icefrog's creation. Dota2 is also under his creative leadership. Hon is not. League of legends is not. Just by this fact alone you should be able to see you will benefit from playing dota 1, the game icefrog is essentially drawing from to create dota 2. 1. I dont think this effect the game that much. It just make different area more important than other. I think if Dota 2 used the same map as HoN, I doubt it would be that dramatic except Rosh of course. 2. I definitely noticed this for sure 3. There is no such thing as AOE phase boot that i can recall but there is a boot that if you are out of combat for certain duration then you gain quiet a bit of movement speed. This boot I consider quiet redicluas as well and I understand your point on this boots 4. Indeed there are differences in item but the majority of the item are the same such as SnY, bkb, linken, mjolinar, mkb, basher and majority of the boots etc etc etc... 5. Well the reason most hero come into the game some kind of CC is because most of the original hero have some sort of CC as well. Can you really point out 5 hero that doesnt have some sort of CC without looking it up? If the new hero doesnt come with some sort of CC then they will be obsolete and too weak. It just part of dota to have alot of CC.
About 4, some items like Sol's Bulwark and Spellshards can make a big diference, the same can be said about the lack of Smoke or Arcane Boots. Most items are the same, but some key diferences really do change the game.
5. He didn't say Dota heroes had no CC, but that HoN heroes ussually have multiple types of CC/utility/farming tools. About your question, I have a limited knowledge about Dota's current playing styles, but from what I've heard, heroes like AM, Spectre, Tinker, Zeus, Necrolyte, with low amounts of CC, if any at all, are much more viable at Dota than their counterparts at HoN, if avaible.
I also feel that HoN has a lot more burst damage overall, and a lot of Dota ports received buffs, while very few, if any, received nerfs.
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I haven't played DotA much more than 2 or 3 times wayyy back when I was a dumbass kid and didn't know shit. But I did play LoL for a while when it was new (back when HoN was in closed beta).
Then one day after playing LoL for a decent while and loving the basic idea of the game, I went over to my buddies house and watched him play a single game of HoN, then I played my first game, and I haven't even opened a LoL client since then, and that's been since at least over a year ago.
HoN would probably be your best bet at the most gentle entrance to a real dota-like experience instead of going straight to war3.
As a side question to people who do play LoL and prefer it, WHY? I seriously don't understand the appeal at all when compared to dota2 or HoN. The gameplay feels slow, spammy and down right dull in my opinion, as well as the lack of any form of deny (towers too are bigdealdeny worthy, as well as pro hero denies) and no "trees" in the war3 sense of the term so you can't juke and eat through trees like a boss. So for reals people, why play LoL when you can play HoN? Convince me of something.
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I wouldn't go back to play the original dota. Just go download Heroes of Newerth, its pretty close to dota and now free to play.
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2 completely different games.
1. One of the biggest differences between DotA and LoL is the laning phase. In LoL much of it is just skill shooting into bushes and getting last hits, and the lane setups are usually 1/1/2/jungle. It's hard to get ganked early game in LoL as you have free blinks, so you can play a lot more greedy than in DotA. In DotA laning is an artform. Solo/Solo/Tri, Dual/Solo/Dual, Solo/Solo/Dual/Jungle, etc, each has a very different play-style depending on where you are. You have to last hit, deny, and conserve mana. The thing I hate about LoL is that spells for most characters are pretty much free, and some are literally free. In DotA if you play juggernaut you literally only have enough mana to use blade fury once. Basically a LoL player needs to actively just hit/deny call misses, and always have tp's and play safe when transitioning to dota.
2. Consumables in DotA are the most important part about the game. TP's cost 135, Wards Cost 200, bottle cost 600, tangos cost 90, healing salve cost 100, clarity cost 50. Compare this to LoL where TP's are free(to base only), teleport also free with a long cooldown. Wards cost like 35 I think, hp/mana pots cost around 35. Everything in DotA really adds up, especially TP's. In LoL much of this is pretty much free but aside for wards I'm sure you already use them a lot. Wards are the most important item in DotA as they give you map control whereas in LoL, every character has the potential to teleport around, hide in bushes, etc. that wards are much less valuable.
3. Piratebay WC3 -> DL Garena -> play. If you've never had experience with DotA before, you will probably hate the game at first, but stick around and it will be a lot of fun.
Oh I should mention this somewhere too. The biggest hero difference between DotA and LoL is that in DotA, nukers(zeus, lion, lina, etc.) basically do no damage in the late game, whereas in LoL spellcasters get stronger as the game goes on due to ability power. In DotA if you eventually become a full support with sheepstick, euls, mech, etc. whereas in LoL you just keep adding to your nuke damage. DotA late game essentially is carry+supports vs carry+supports while LoL is a complete brawl.
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1. you're trying to break away from habits. Take it like this: don't assume anything is similar between the games. Treat them as different entities and you're learning something completely new.
2. If you think doing dota habits in LoL will help you play correctly in dota then go for it.
3. Yes, play HoN / Dota. Getting actual experience with these games will help you solve question 1) much easier than roughing your way through it with dota2.
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I think the most common mistake for people switching is that they assume the games are similar akin to a player going from brood war to starcraft II. However, it can be said that LoL and HoN/DotA are completely different games despite being in the same genre. Sure the lasthitting skills help, but don't expect to do things you can do in LoL to happen in Dota/HoN and vice versa.
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I think you should just wait and see if you will like the game first.
For what I saw on streams there are pretty much a lot of ways to get the hang of it, and it would be even nicer to start with people that also knows zero from the game instead of being a "high level noob" that knows a lot and doesnt know a lot too.....
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I will try and put this politely. He was most likely making a statement with intentional exageration to point out that the current form of DotA is in fact IceFrog's creation. While previous heads of the game made a fun game (ie Allstars, intended to unite casuals), IceFrog has been moving for many years to make it competitive.
Also, people like to give credit where it isn't due. They say IceFrog is just some squatter, but its unfair to say the likes of Guinsoo made DotA. They didn't. They made DotA allstars. The original DotA is from ages ago, and so it has been more like a genre for some time now than a stable game.
In that way, IceFrog did make DotA. Or, its current incarnation. It was not Guinsoo's DotA that became one of the favourite past-times for Chinese youth.
So yes, IceFrog didn't invent DotA. But I think you can understand what people mean when they say that he made it. It is not out of ignorance, but rather admoration.
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fuck.
Every time I want to post and share information it's shit like this that makes me hesitate.
After reading the rest of my post, you couldn't deduce that I already knew this?
I realize who euls, guinsoo, icefrog, etc are. If we all spent time specifying every single point then discussion would never get anywhere. Dota is icefrog's creation means COMPETITIVE DOTA TODAY IS WHERE IT IS DUE IN LARGE PART TO ICEFROG, ALSO DOTA2 IS LED BY ICEFROG.
Basically what Shai said.
Anyway, pretty good discussion generated so far about the differences. My personal opinion is that any little thing that deviates from dota1 in hon actually makes a big difference in a competitive environment. A jango in dota1 is a jango in dota2. Whatever the hon equivalent is does not act exactly like jango, so there WILL be subtle changes. In a lot of cases, in a competitive game, its hard to say that playing hon will let you understand these subtle interactions in dota 2.
I'm not trying to say one game is better than the other overall, but to answer the original question playing dota1 will give you the best window into what dota2 is, and will be.
In response to Kupon3ss:
The way I rate dota players is their overall impact. Chu was a great player. He had really great heroes like tiny, meepo, qop, tb, luna and incredible micro. He was among the best to race to a divine rapier bkb. His farm rate in competitive games against hard teams was something like 80% of possible creeps/neuts. But his overall impact of games usually relied on the success of his farm. So in this way he is like Kuroky or Ritter. If you compare him to someone like Heen, who was Korean team captain, I feel he is less valuable. Chu couldn't lead in 08 and 09 like Heen, and no matter what role Heen plays he always finds a way to be effective. If you gave Chu someone like vs, lich, veno, pugna imho he wouldn't be that amazing. We'll never really know, because he quit as he was rising in skill and popularity....But it does show you he's not upper tier of absolute pros because someone like Testie who hadn't played dota very long could play meepo as well as he did.
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testie didnt make any impact on dota at all... and chu was very good lol
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Little off topic but I been getting together a group of mates I've met through LoL over the months and have been getting together a group to do dota inhouses. As of right now, it's about 12 of us playing through garena. So this is an open invite to anyone else interested, just send me a PM and I'll add you through steam and try to get some games going. So far we haven't had a full ten on so I can't say how well they have gone yet but in theory it seems like this will be a nicer transition then just jumping into pubbing and having 0 fun while ruining games for the other nine people.
And on topic: My initial issues I had transitioning were getting used to having my hero deselected, adjusting to the shop system, and in general dealing with being a complete noob all over again and having no idea what the heroes I'm laning against do.
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Best immediate advice I can give is to play DotA1, learn to last hit, and learn to deny.
You can't just play LoL like it's DotA, you'll get stomped and it just doesn't work that way.
So yeah, just install War3, play DotA1, get used to playing without summoner spells or runes or ability power or any of that LoL stuff.
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On November 01 2011 02:36 Kupon3ss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 02:19 Ack1027 wrote:
I've been over it a lot of times and most people who've never played competitively don't agree.
1. The terrain is different. This effects team fight and skirmish dynamics, juking, warding.
2. If you rate attack animations in dota on a scale from 1-10 [ with 10 being the easiest/best ] then almost all of hon's attack animations are 7 or higher. At the most basic level, if you give crystal maiden to the hands of a pro like 13abyknight or ZSMJ they will rape a pubber even if they are playing viper. But if a pro plays cm vs another pro, they have very little chance of overcoming, or if they do its a great accomplishment. This permeates into everything, farming, denying, tower denying, last hitting, to timing kills based of DOTs like doom or shadow strike.
3. In hon you have way more options for movespeed. I don't play hon but I have friends who play it and they've told me there's been shit like AOE phase boots and things that make you run faster as long as you keep running. This means you don't have to worry as much about positioning. Some of the highest level play you can see from pro supports is how they position themselves or bait their carries/initiators in team fights.
4. Hon items are different. There's no equivalent for things like Nome's wisdom in dota. Just by being different it will lead to different gameplay. And as kipsate mentioned, dota has urn and smoke of deceit.
5. Hon's hero design is much different from Icefrog. Lots of hon heroes come into the game with stuns/slows/aoe/range/movespeed buff/silence all on one hero. <-- not altogether of course, but some combination of these things.
Basically even if you ignore all those points, just ask yourself...if hon and dota are the same in gameplay, then do you only play hon because it's better graphics and matchmaking? No, hon does a lot of things differently. Look at someone like Chu, among the best to ever play Hon. He was a low-to-mid pro in dota. If you asked him if the games were the same, he'd probably say no. He's looking forward to dota 2 for a reason.
Dota is icefrog's creation. Dota2 is also under his creative leadership. Hon is not. League of legends is not. Just by this fact alone you should be able to see you will benefit from playing dota 1, the game icefrog is essentially drawing from to create dota 2. This is pretty accurate, tho the differences aren't that big, the attack animation thing is a definite difference, but the attack animation change comes far more from the engine change than any deliberate change in stats and is probably closer to that of Dota2 The boots thing is really just the choice for supports, in Hon supports can be reasonably useful with 800 gold (+100spd while not in combat) while DotA supports tend to go for mana boots for speed and teamfights, this allows for supports in Hon to be "poorer" while remaining effective, and drastically changes things like trilanes and roaming, whereas the aoe phase is really just a modified Jango Chu was a lot better at Dota than you give him credit for, he was part of the Korean national team and genuinely gave Chinese teams trouble in several Asian tourneys in 08 and 09, which is at least on par with top Western Teams of the same time HoN essentially copied dota at its conception and was for a long time under advice from icefrog, however, once icefrog got picked up for dota2 by valve, they've diverged significant from DotA the only hero with "stuns/slows/aoe/range/movespeed buff/silence" is invoker ;p
Dota 2 attack animations are design to be identical to DOTA 1's. They seem pretty close in feel between dota2 and dota1 outside of a few heroes, but it is still early beta. DOTA's balance depends to a large degree on attack animations.
Also I agree with Ack, DOTA is Icefrogs creation. If you ever played Guinsoos DOTA you would know it is a far cry from modern DOTA. The Guinsoo heroes were either very bland: a ton of stun+passive heroes, or completely broken(old stealth assassin, Ignus Fatuus). Granted Guinsoo did fix a few of the old heroes right before he disappeared, but it was Icefrog who turned a casual map to an esport.
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EPT
