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On August 19 2013 07:04 ch33psh33p wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2013 07:01 thebig1 wrote:On August 19 2013 04:13 wherebugsgo wrote:And yeah, it probably does reflect on how sadly empty the NA dota scene is, but I'm not convinced with Liquid's supports I'll admit, I don't actually know anything about upcoming possible NA pubstars who aren't considered "part of the scene", and maybe there aren't any, but I get the feeling that in order to be considered as such, you need to get in with the nadota crowd. If that's true, and you consider that every time I visit a thread on those forums it looks like a total cesspool, then it might just be the NA scene doing it to itself. But hey, I'm just a no skill scrub that needs to shut his fucking nerd mouth because he has no idea what he's talking about, right? It IS the nadota scene doing it to itself. There was this whole rally to get your shit together post a few years back, but all it ended up showing was how little NADota cared. About anything.
Its not only that, its like that because there is no ladder/ranking system in dota 2, therefor new talent will never be discovered without having to "fit in" with the nadota type crowd of badmannered ragers. Thats what is going to kill dota honestly if they don't fix it.
Look at SC2, you can say how meaningless GM is and of course its not the be-all-end-all, but if someone is in GM and taking games consistently off pros on stream without ever being heard of before (along with having good manners) - that person will eventually be contacted to join a team. Right now, theres no way any "pubstars" will ever be discovered in a similar fashion because dota MM matches FLUFF or etc with ppl with 50 wins so its always a stomp; Even if someone did play great vs a pro, due to the MMR being so varied, its unlikely that person will ever play another pro again (I've played vs Bdiz and won but I havent seen another pro in 3 months.. is my MMR high or low?? No idea..) - and like I said, you can get noticed maybe from ixdl but then you have to fit in with that raging-flaming crowd.
Dota 2 ranking system is the reason theres only 1-2 good supports in NA.
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On August 19 2013 07:42 SnowfaLL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2013 07:04 ch33psh33p wrote:On August 19 2013 07:01 thebig1 wrote:On August 19 2013 04:13 wherebugsgo wrote:And yeah, it probably does reflect on how sadly empty the NA dota scene is, but I'm not convinced with Liquid's supports I'll admit, I don't actually know anything about upcoming possible NA pubstars who aren't considered "part of the scene", and maybe there aren't any, but I get the feeling that in order to be considered as such, you need to get in with the nadota crowd. If that's true, and you consider that every time I visit a thread on those forums it looks like a total cesspool, then it might just be the NA scene doing it to itself. But hey, I'm just a no skill scrub that needs to shut his fucking nerd mouth because he has no idea what he's talking about, right? It IS the nadota scene doing it to itself. There was this whole rally to get your shit together post a few years back, but all it ended up showing was how little NADota cared. About anything. [...] and like I said, you can get noticed maybe from ixdl but then you have to fit in with that raging-flaming crowd. Dota 2 ranking system is the reason theres only 1-2 good supports in NA.
You don't have to fit in with anyone you just have to endure everyone.
And a rating system for pubs won't give you a single good support player. Playing proper support outside of organised play is just not possible.
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
Wow. NA dota is in a bad shape because of no ladder in pubs. You learn something new every day!
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On August 19 2013 07:42 SnowfaLL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2013 07:04 ch33psh33p wrote:On August 19 2013 07:01 thebig1 wrote:On August 19 2013 04:13 wherebugsgo wrote:And yeah, it probably does reflect on how sadly empty the NA dota scene is, but I'm not convinced with Liquid's supports I'll admit, I don't actually know anything about upcoming possible NA pubstars who aren't considered "part of the scene", and maybe there aren't any, but I get the feeling that in order to be considered as such, you need to get in with the nadota crowd. If that's true, and you consider that every time I visit a thread on those forums it looks like a total cesspool, then it might just be the NA scene doing it to itself. But hey, I'm just a no skill scrub that needs to shut his fucking nerd mouth because he has no idea what he's talking about, right? It IS the nadota scene doing it to itself. There was this whole rally to get your shit together post a few years back, but all it ended up showing was how little NADota cared. About anything. Its not only that, its like that because there is no ladder/ranking system in dota 2, therefor new talent will never be discovered without having to "fit in" with the nadota type crowd of badmannered ragers. Thats what is going to kill dota honestly if they don't fix it. Look at SC2, you can say how meaningless GM is and of course its not the be-all-end-all, but if someone is in GM and taking games consistently off pros on stream without ever being heard of before (along with having good manners) - that person will eventually be contacted to join a team. Right now, theres no way any "pubstars" will ever be discovered in a similar fashion because dota MM matches FLUFF or etc with ppl with 50 wins so its always a stomp; Even if someone did play great vs a pro, due to the MMR being so varied, its unlikely that person will ever play another pro again (I've played vs Bdiz and won but I havent seen another pro in 3 months.. is my MMR high or low?? No idea..) - and like I said, you can get noticed maybe from ixdl but then you have to fit in with that raging-flaming crowd. Dota 2 ranking system is the reason theres only 1-2 good supports in NA.
Why compare the effectiveness of MMR in a 1v1 game to one of a 5v5? In SC2 you have no one to blame but yourself in dota 2 there are so many variables since theres 4 other people in the team. Also a stomp doesn't always mean a disparity in skill, look at the grandfinals in TI3 both teams stomped each other. And since when does #wins=skill? What if the dude was a long time dota player/smurf or plays lobby/IH alot. If you want to make an argument on visible MMR=more competitive players you should give a situation or examples in LoL not SC2.
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On August 19 2013 07:42 SnowfaLL wrote:
Dota 2 ranking system is the reason theres only 1-2 good supports in NA.
Can't say if trolling.
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point is not win#, but you get bad players in games. Read dev.dota2 for examples.
And yes, you would find good support players if there was a ladder ranking system, because you can check hero stats/etc thru dotabuff (any decent player has it enabled) - if someone was able to get top 10 in a ladder playing 4 or 5 pos heros everytime, they must be doing something right. Of course you can't play as a captain/directing gameflow, but knowing your support heros inside and out makes a difference. Im not talking playing 10 games on rubick and thinking you are "good", im talking if somene played literally hundreds of games on specific heros, such as AdmiralBulldog did on his core heroes.. See that in a ladder ranking, along with matching up regularily vs them (if dota had a working mm system) - that person would get noticed when teams are looking for a good 4/5 pos player and no one is on the market (like right now)
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I dont know much about LoL thats why I havent mentioned it, but im sure thats exactly what happens; players at the top of the rankings are probably looked at. It was like that in HoN (much superior matchmaking) - Regardless if you guys are supporters of the whole "hidden loss count and ranking so we cant see how terrible we are compared to the rest of the world because it hurts our feelings", you can't deny that there MUST be at least a few relatively worthy players who do NOT play on ixdl, who will never get discovered because of how random the matchmaking system currently is. Valve's "Very High" skill bracket is so varied, you actually see people who only autoattack creeps. That is a shame.
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On August 19 2013 07:54 treeqt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2013 07:42 SnowfaLL wrote:On August 19 2013 07:04 ch33psh33p wrote:On August 19 2013 07:01 thebig1 wrote:On August 19 2013 04:13 wherebugsgo wrote:And yeah, it probably does reflect on how sadly empty the NA dota scene is, but I'm not convinced with Liquid's supports I'll admit, I don't actually know anything about upcoming possible NA pubstars who aren't considered "part of the scene", and maybe there aren't any, but I get the feeling that in order to be considered as such, you need to get in with the nadota crowd. If that's true, and you consider that every time I visit a thread on those forums it looks like a total cesspool, then it might just be the NA scene doing it to itself. But hey, I'm just a no skill scrub that needs to shut his fucking nerd mouth because he has no idea what he's talking about, right? It IS the nadota scene doing it to itself. There was this whole rally to get your shit together post a few years back, but all it ended up showing was how little NADota cared. About anything. [...] and like I said, you can get noticed maybe from ixdl but then you have to fit in with that raging-flaming crowd. Dota 2 ranking system is the reason theres only 1-2 good supports in NA. You don't have to fit in with anyone you just have to endure everyone. And a rating system for pubs won't give you a single good support player. Playing proper support outside of organised play is just not possible.
The problem with enduring a situation like that is that it's soul draining. Sure it's possible to do for a while, but eventually a time comes when the fun you get out of the game is no longer enough to keep you going, and it game becomes a chore. If it's no longer enjoyable, you want out, and quit.
That's something that happens all the time, and is not confined to dota at all.
It is TECHNICALLY possible to become noticed in pub play (or it was in CS at least), but yes it is incredibly unlikely, doesn't really work and requires way too much luck to be relied upon. Honestly, the best method is probably to fall back to the old tiered league systems. Yes, it's a shitfest at the lower levels, and a nightmare to organize, but it gives some structure to things. The 'better' amateur teams poach players from the worse ones, and given enough time the cream tends to rise to the top.
Player oriented matchmaking ladders or pickup leagues may be a lot of fun, but it's NOT a good way to develop talent. You need people playing together as a team, and trying to develop their roles, even if the average team only lasts a few months before reforming.
Pickup leagues lead to screwing around. Pros don't take it seriously, and players who get into games with them tend to go into super tryhard mode because 'It might be there big chance!'.
Edit: Think ADL, but way way way way way more teams. Actually... what I'm describing is what the Koreans are doing isn't it?
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On August 19 2013 08:32 thebig1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2013 07:54 treeqt wrote:On August 19 2013 07:42 SnowfaLL wrote:On August 19 2013 07:04 ch33psh33p wrote:On August 19 2013 07:01 thebig1 wrote:On August 19 2013 04:13 wherebugsgo wrote:And yeah, it probably does reflect on how sadly empty the NA dota scene is, but I'm not convinced with Liquid's supports I'll admit, I don't actually know anything about upcoming possible NA pubstars who aren't considered "part of the scene", and maybe there aren't any, but I get the feeling that in order to be considered as such, you need to get in with the nadota crowd. If that's true, and you consider that every time I visit a thread on those forums it looks like a total cesspool, then it might just be the NA scene doing it to itself. But hey, I'm just a no skill scrub that needs to shut his fucking nerd mouth because he has no idea what he's talking about, right? It IS the nadota scene doing it to itself. There was this whole rally to get your shit together post a few years back, but all it ended up showing was how little NADota cared. About anything. [...] and like I said, you can get noticed maybe from ixdl but then you have to fit in with that raging-flaming crowd. Dota 2 ranking system is the reason theres only 1-2 good supports in NA. You don't have to fit in with anyone you just have to endure everyone. And a rating system for pubs won't give you a single good support player. Playing proper support outside of organised play is just not possible. The problem with enduring a situation like that is that it's soul draining. Sure it's possible to do for a while, but eventually a time comes when the fun you get out of the game is no longer enough to keep you going, and it game becomes a chore. If it's no longer enjoyable, you want out, and quit. That's something that happens all the time, and is not confined to dota at all. It is TECHNICALLY possible to become noticed in pub play (or it was in CS at least), but yes it is incredibly unlikely, doesn't really work and requires way too much luck to be relied upon. Honestly, the best method is probably to fall back to the old tiered league systems. Yes, it's a shitfest at the lower levels, and a nightmare to organize, but it gives some structure to things. The 'better' amateur teams poach players from the worse ones, and given enough time the cream tends to rise to the top. Player oriented matchmaking ladders or pickup leagues may be a lot of fun, but it's NOT a good way to develop talent. You need people playing together as a team, and trying to develop their roles, even if the average team only lasts a few months before reforming. Pickup leagues lead to screwing around. Pros don't take it seriously, and players who get into games with them tend to go into super tryhard mode because 'It might be there big chance!'. Edit: Think ADL, but way way way way way more teams. Actually... what I'm describing is what the Koreans are doing isn't it?
It is what the Koreans are doing. The way I see it the problem isn't MMR but the lack of Lan/tournaments in general for the US . NA is still heavily dependent on EU while East SEA/China each have their own tournaments but still sometimes overlap.
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I have played lol and people are more retarded when they're shown their rank. I played CS and pub was for fun, mIRC pick up was for fun but a little more serious. Then when you really wanted to prove your worth, you joined/created a team, subscribe to online tourneys like ESL or any lan. And your argument about "hurting feelings" also sounds almost trolling.
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Very hard to get pub visibility without any visible ladder. I wish it could just be a ladder for the top 1000 players, so nobody on the actual ranking could be flamed for their skill while there isn't any shame in not being on it.
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I think there's a reason why all the top players have started to play IXDL rather than AP stacks all day. There's a problem with IXDL though. It's essentially the same thing as a ranked ladder but with a much smaller player pool. Not every top player is gonna be playing it, and most likely not the unknown talents who haven't been in the scene as long. It doesn't have many tiers of skill and finding games with 10 equally skilled players is pretty difficult to come by.
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On August 19 2013 08:29 SnowfaLL wrote:
I dont know much about LoL thats why I havent mentioned it, but im sure thats exactly what happens; players at the top of the rankings are probably looked at. It was like that in HoN (much superior matchmaking) - Regardless if you guys are supporters of the whole "hidden loss count and ranking so we cant see how terrible we are compared to the rest of the world because it hurts our feelings", you can't deny that there MUST be at least a few relatively worthy players who do NOT play on ixdl, who will never get discovered because of how random the matchmaking system currently is. Valve's "Very High" skill bracket is so varied, you actually see people who only autoattack creeps. That is a shame.
You realize that if people are good enough to actually have a really high hidden MMR they would be on the top of the Watch list all the time for their games right? It's not like there's absolutely no way at all to figure out how good a player is just because it's hidden in your profile and because there's bad players in the "very high" bracket.
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On August 19 2013 08:59 EmilA wrote:
Very hard to get pub visibility without any visible ladder. I wish it could just be a ladder for the top 1000 players, so nobody on the actual ranking could be flamed for their skill while there isn't any shame in not being on it.
It wouldn't help. Pros will not take it seriously anyways. As someone who played at (nearly) the highest level of CS, anything below an important match, or practicing IN PRIVATE with people you trust for an important match is play time. This includes pubs, pugs, and even lesser leagues. Pros know that being rated near the top in a team game doesn't actually mean very much. Especially in a game like dota, where most people are going to get there by abusing pub strats, which don't care over very well to organized games. Games between properly practiced teams are a VASTLY different beast, and require different skills.
The best method BY FAR is to somehow work your way up through competitive play and get noticed that way. Unfortunately, the leagues don't exist for this.
If you know someone who is willing to put in the work to get a team of people together that will put up with the shit required to run a league potentially containing 100 or 1000 teams, it would be a huge help. You don't even really need huge payouts or anything, people will play largely for pride. If you build it, people will come. It did in the past, it likely would again.
Edit: I'm saying this now. It's possible to even make a large amount of money off this if you do it right. Again, it's been done before. Someone just needs to step up to the plate and get it right.
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On August 19 2013 08:32 thebig1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2013 07:54 treeqt wrote:On August 19 2013 07:42 SnowfaLL wrote:On August 19 2013 07:04 ch33psh33p wrote:On August 19 2013 07:01 thebig1 wrote:On August 19 2013 04:13 wherebugsgo wrote:And yeah, it probably does reflect on how sadly empty the NA dota scene is, but I'm not convinced with Liquid's supports I'll admit, I don't actually know anything about upcoming possible NA pubstars who aren't considered "part of the scene", and maybe there aren't any, but I get the feeling that in order to be considered as such, you need to get in with the nadota crowd. If that's true, and you consider that every time I visit a thread on those forums it looks like a total cesspool, then it might just be the NA scene doing it to itself. But hey, I'm just a no skill scrub that needs to shut his fucking nerd mouth because he has no idea what he's talking about, right? It IS the nadota scene doing it to itself. There was this whole rally to get your shit together post a few years back, but all it ended up showing was how little NADota cared. About anything. [...] and like I said, you can get noticed maybe from ixdl but then you have to fit in with that raging-flaming crowd. Dota 2 ranking system is the reason theres only 1-2 good supports in NA. You don't have to fit in with anyone you just have to endure everyone. And a rating system for pubs won't give you a single good support player. Playing proper support outside of organised play is just not possible. The problem with enduring a situation like that is that it's soul draining. Sure it's possible to do for a while, but eventually a time comes when the fun you get out of the game is no longer enough to keep you going, and it game becomes a chore. If it's no longer enjoyable, you want out, and quit. That's something that happens all the time, and is not confined to dota at all. It is TECHNICALLY possible to become noticed in pub play (or it was in CS at least), but yes it is incredibly unlikely, doesn't really work and requires way too much luck to be relied upon. Honestly, the best method is probably to fall back to the old tiered league systems. Yes, it's a shitfest at the lower levels, and a nightmare to organize, but it gives some structure to things. The 'better' amateur teams poach players from the worse ones, and given enough time the cream tends to rise to the top. Player oriented matchmaking ladders or pickup leagues may be a lot of fun, but it's NOT a good way to develop talent. You need people playing together as a team, and trying to develop their roles, even if the average team only lasts a few months before reforming. Pickup leagues lead to screwing around. Pros don't take it seriously, and players who get into games with them tend to go into super tryhard mode because 'It might be there big chance!'. Edit: Think ADL, but way way way way way more teams. Actually... what I'm describing is what the Koreans are doing isn't it?
Sounds about right. Team leagues for lower-skilled players really does seem like the best way to develop good support players. Solo mid or feed pubstars are easily generated just by stomping enough scrubs via rotations that they can eventually find their way onto the offlane of a pro team, but support is much harder to nurture (although on an anecdotal level I have plenty of friends who actively enjoy the role, as well as being moderately capable in the 4 position myself). I do think that there's plenty of nascent support talent in the NA scene, it's hard for those players to get into the limelight with all the focus that we're seeing placed on the DENDIDENDIDENDI and so on.
Come to think of it, that makes me feel like a good article highlighting superb support play would be a very beneficial thing...
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MLG is hosting some weird Dota ladder thing. Potm bottom got noticed through winning some smaller pro-am tournaments at first. There is the "lanhammer" byoc event going on in nor-cal right now. There are definitely opportunities if you are putting yourself out there. I mean ffs look at EE. He made a thread on this very forum about quitting school to go pro at Dota 2 and got flamed to hell and back but look at him now! He did it because he had the drive and motivation to do so. Don't sit there wallowing in self pity wishing you could get noticed by just laddering. That isn't how it works. You have to be proactive.
Yes networking helps, that is the whole point of playing ixdl-invite, and to a lesser extent I guess posting on that cesspool known as NAdota... but it is not the end-all be-all of networking.
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Bulldog is the easiest example of a relatively unknown player that became big through a matchmaking game. I'm pretty sure Sing met and befriended Bamboe through a pub game which is how the later got his start and so on. I mean there are few instances where players are found through the current matchmaking system and if you're high enough in the system than you will inevitably come across a few pro players here and there (even in the NA region). I mean the system has it's flaws but some people here are arguing that it doesn't exist or work at all which is not true.
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On August 19 2013 07:18 OuchyDathurts wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2013 06:57 G3CKO wrote:
Nirvana Int reform please. Puppey, Fear, Azen, Korok, Demon please make it true!?!?! Doesn't Puppey hate Demon's fucking guts? While I'd love to see Fear and Puppey back together I don't see that happening. Maybe EG shocks the world and gets him but I'm not holding my breath. Korok is a possibility, maybe Brax and Universe. I'm 99% sure Demon is gone, while I think the removing himself from the team on stream thing is just shit stirring I don't see them keeping him around. He just loves the attention and being emo about shit. The fact is until he does some growing up and takes this shit seriously no team can ever win with him on it. He might get you some stream views, but being a streamer doesn't win you shit.
Demon might be unstable but he's certainly not a bad player as you're making him out to be nor does Puppey hate Demon, he just doesn't care for him.
I dont see ppy leaving na'vi either, he's too instrumental to their success and he gets payed.
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On August 19 2013 09:20 Snorkle wrote:
MLG is hosting some weird Dota ladder thing. Potm bottom got noticed through winning some smaller pro-am tournaments at first. There is the "lanhammer" byoc event going on in nor-cal right now. There are definitely opportunities if you are putting yourself out there. I mean ffs look at EE. He made a thread on this very forum about quitting school to go pro at Dota 2 and got flamed to hell and back but look at him now! He did it because he had the drive and motivation to do so. Don't sit there wallowing in self pity wishing you could get noticed by just laddering. That isn't how it works. You have to be proactive.
Yes networking helps, that is the whole point of playing ixdl-invite, and to a lesser extent I guess posting on that cesspool known as NAdota... but it is not the end-all be-all of networking.
You missed the Chicago Open. A friend of mine just got second place.
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On August 19 2013 09:20 Snorkle wrote:
MLG is hosting some weird Dota ladder thing. Potm bottom got noticed through winning some smaller pro-am tournaments at first. There is the "lanhammer" byoc event going on in nor-cal right now. There are definitely opportunities if you are putting yourself out there. I mean ffs look at EE. He made a thread on this very forum about quitting school to go pro at Dota 2 and got flamed to hell and back but look at him now! He did it because he had the drive and motivation to do so. Don't sit there wallowing in self pity wishing you could get noticed by just laddering. That isn't how it works. You have to be proactive.
Yes networking helps, that is the whole point of playing ixdl-invite, and to a lesser extent I guess posting on that cesspool known as NAdota... but it is not the end-all be-all of networking.
I find it laughable you would even come to that conclusion. NO one here is "wallowing in self pity wishing they could get noticed just by ladder" - that would be a useless desire in this game. Of course if you want to get noticed, you have to play ixdl and become known (one way or another by outrageous raging and bad manners) - and DEFINITELY need to play more than 10 hours a week like I do.
Theres no middle ground in dota. If you don't have the time to find a consistent 5-stack, (some people have jobs, and other hobbies than gaming, believe it or not) - theres no way to get competitive gameplay in, as public MM right now is a blowout one way or another every game. Where is the fun for casual "serious" players? I may only play 10 hours a week, but I dont wanna have to deal with feeders and abandons or people all randoming in RD/AP when the other team picks PL/Furion/KOTL/etc.
But to bring this back full circle to my point; theres no good support players available in NA because theres no developmental system in place. Low-level inhouse leagues help, but so does a proper matchmaking system.
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EPT
