On August 18 2013 19:23 Testuser wrote: If Korok is out that's quite sad for Liquid - hey'll only really have Bulba as a good player then, imo. I would replace Fluff/Mike/TC.
Nah. Wish EG weren't keeping jeyo so Liquid could make it coL -hannah +bulba. What a sick team.
That's a team set up for accomplishing absolutely nothing, haha ...
Do you not remember that TC/mike/fluff/jeyo/hannah won The Defense 2 and were the best non-Na`Vi team at TI2? You have a weird definition of "nothing."
? they lost at the same time as EG/Darer/CLG. And i dont recall them being amazing. Beside the super famous 'no rax, creeps in base' smoke
CoL did quite a bit better in the groupstages than those other teams you mention. Which wasn't very surprising, since they were the dominant Western team in the 2 months leading up to TI2. Considering they made the winner bracket, I certainly wouldn't place them in the same group as CLG and Darer. In the end they performed similarly or slightly better than EG, being able to take games/series off the Eastern teams. (It's honestly getting tiresome having to explain this to the same people over and over again btw)
In term of winnings, CLG is ahead. And groupstages matters so much right ? Col was never the dominant team, the western scene was actually quite even between a couple of teams when you think about it.
On August 18 2013 19:23 Testuser wrote: If Korok is out that's quite sad for Liquid - hey'll only really have Bulba as a good player then, imo. I would replace Fluff/Mike/TC.
Nah. Wish EG weren't keeping jeyo so Liquid could make it coL -hannah +bulba. What a sick team.
That's a team set up for accomplishing absolutely nothing, haha ...
Do you not remember that TC/mike/fluff/jeyo/hannah won The Defense 2 and were the best non-Na`Vi team at TI2? You have a weird definition of "nothing."
? they lost at the same time as EG/Darer/CLG. And i dont recall them being amazing. Beside the super famous 'no rax, creeps in base' smoke
CoL did quite a bit better in the groupstages than those other teams you mention. Which wasn't very surprising, since they were the dominant Western team in the 2 months leading up to TI2. Considering they made the winner bracket, I certainly wouldn't place them in the same group as CLG and Darer. In the end they performed similarly or slightly better than EG, being able to take games/series off the Eastern teams. (It's honestly getting tiresome having to explain this to the same people over and over again btw)
In term of winnings, CLG is ahead. And groupstages matters so much right ? Col was never the dominant team, the western scene was actually quite even between a couple of teams when you think about it.
There are a few things I could talk about, like the fact that CLG being in EU gave them more opportunities to win prize money. But I have a feeling that anything I'd bring up would turn out to "not matter so much," just like group stages in the biggest tournament in Dota.
On August 18 2013 19:23 Testuser wrote: If Korok is out that's quite sad for Liquid - hey'll only really have Bulba as a good player then, imo. I would replace Fluff/Mike/TC.
Nah. Wish EG weren't keeping jeyo so Liquid could make it coL -hannah +bulba. What a sick team.
That's a team set up for accomplishing absolutely nothing, haha ...
Do you not remember that TC/mike/fluff/jeyo/hannah won The Defense 2 and were the best non-Na`Vi team at TI2? You have a weird definition of "nothing."
? they lost at the same time as EG/Darer/CLG. And i dont recall them being amazing. Beside the super famous 'no rax, creeps in base' smoke
CoL did quite a bit better in the groupstages than those other teams you mention. Which wasn't very surprising, since they were the dominant Western team in the 2 months leading up to TI2. Considering they made the winner bracket, I certainly wouldn't place them in the same group as CLG and Darer. In the end they performed similarly or slightly better than EG, being able to take games/series off the Eastern teams. (It's honestly getting tiresome having to explain this to the same people over and over again btw)
In term of winnings, CLG is ahead. And groupstages matters so much right ? Col was never the dominant team, the western scene was actually quite even between a couple of teams when you think about it.
I gave a very specific timeframe during which I claimed coL was 'dominant': two months leading up to TI2. During those months coL was usually the #1 ranked team on gg.net, and they had won The Defense 2 (3-1 over Mouz), ECAL Americas (3-1 over EG). Na'Vi was struggling at the time, the other powerhouses were EG, CLG and Mouz, and coL was outperforming them at the time.
Anyway I don't really disagree with throwing teams like coL, EG, Na'Vi and CLG into the same group as 'quite even'. But they were the most consistent performers out of those teams, and clearly a class above teams like Darer and Mouz.
On August 18 2013 19:23 Testuser wrote: If Korok is out that's quite sad for Liquid - hey'll only really have Bulba as a good player then, imo. I would replace Fluff/Mike/TC.
Nah. Wish EG weren't keeping jeyo so Liquid could make it coL -hannah +bulba. What a sick team.
That's a team set up for accomplishing absolutely nothing, haha ...
Do you not remember that TC/mike/fluff/jeyo/hannah won The Defense 2 and were the best non-Na`Vi team at TI2? You have a weird definition of "nothing."
Sorry - but I honestly don't believe that such a team will accomplish much. I didn't find Col impressive, and while I think TL has proven to be resilient and talented, I hardly find Korok the one to be brining the team down (skillwise - I don't know how the chemistry has been in the team).
On August 18 2013 19:23 Testuser wrote: If Korok is out that's quite sad for Liquid - hey'll only really have Bulba as a good player then, imo. I would replace Fluff/Mike/TC.
Nah. Wish EG weren't keeping jeyo so Liquid could make it coL -hannah +bulba. What a sick team.
That's a team set up for accomplishing absolutely nothing, haha ...
Do you not remember that TC/mike/fluff/jeyo/hannah won The Defense 2 and were the best non-Na`Vi team at TI2? You have a weird definition of "nothing."
? they lost at the same time as EG/Darer/CLG. And i dont recall them being amazing. Beside the super famous 'no rax, creeps in base' smoke
CoL did quite a bit better in the groupstages than those other teams you mention. Which wasn't very surprising, since they were the dominant Western team in the 2 months leading up to TI2. Considering they made the winner bracket, I certainly wouldn't place them in the same group as CLG and Darer. In the end they performed similarly or slightly better than EG, being able to take games/series off the Eastern teams. (It's honestly getting tiresome having to explain this to the same people over and over again btw)
In term of winnings, CLG is ahead. And groupstages matters so much right ? Col was never the dominant team, the western scene was actually quite even between a couple of teams when you think about it.
There are a few things I could talk about, like the fact that CLG being in EU gave them more opportunities to win prize money. But I have a feeling that anything I'd bring up would turn out to "not matter so much," just like group stages in the biggest tournament in Dota.
I'll be honest, I don't think being in TI2 or TI3 is enough to make a team great. Yes, of course they've accomplished more than I ever could and they're amazing for making it so far and how dare I say anything bad when I'm a lowly scrub pleb, but honestly, Col didn't impress me at all @TI2 and while Liquid did perform quite well @TI3, it didn't convince me at all. I'm sorry, but I feel like Korok and Bulba are extremely skilled individuals, and I don't find their teammates as good. Fluff seems like a super nice guy, but his draft seems bland and predictable. TC did perform really, really well @TI3, that I have to concede, but I haven't seen anything from him that'd convince me he's the right carry for the Liquid team.
Sorry for talking so about a team you obviously like !
On August 18 2013 19:23 Testuser wrote: If Korok is out that's quite sad for Liquid - hey'll only really have Bulba as a good player then, imo. I would replace Fluff/Mike/TC.
Nah. Wish EG weren't keeping jeyo so Liquid could make it coL -hannah +bulba. What a sick team.
That's a team set up for accomplishing absolutely nothing, haha ...
Do you not remember that TC/mike/fluff/jeyo/hannah won The Defense 2 and were the best non-Na`Vi team at TI2? You have a weird definition of "nothing."
? they lost at the same time as EG/Darer/CLG. And i dont recall them being amazing. Beside the super famous 'no rax, creeps in base' smoke
CoL did quite a bit better in the groupstages than those other teams you mention. Which wasn't very surprising, since they were the dominant Western team in the 2 months leading up to TI2. Considering they made the winner bracket, I certainly wouldn't place them in the same group as CLG and Darer. In the end they performed similarly or slightly better than EG, being able to take games/series off the Eastern teams. (It's honestly getting tiresome having to explain this to the same people over and over again btw)
In term of winnings, CLG is ahead. And groupstages matters so much right ? Col was never the dominant team, the western scene was actually quite even between a couple of teams when you think about it.
There are a few things I could talk about, like the fact that CLG being in EU gave them more opportunities to win prize money. But I have a feeling that anything I'd bring up would turn out to "not matter so much," just like group stages in the biggest tournament in Dota.
I'll be honest, I don't think being in TI2 or TI3 is enough to make a team great. Yes, of course they've accomplished more than I ever could and they're amazing for making it so far and how dare I say anything bad when I'm a lowly scrub pleb, but honestly, Col didn't impress me at all @TI2 and while Liquid did perform quite well @TI3, it didn't convince me at all. I'm sorry, but I feel like Korok and Bulba are extremely skilled individuals, and I don't find their teammates as good. Fluff seems like a super nice guy, but his draft seems bland and predictable. TC did perform really, really well @TI3, that I have to concede, but I haven't seen anything from him that'd convince me he's the right carry for the Liquid team.
Sorry for talking so about a team you obviously like !
Liquid's supports are definitely their weak points.
Bulba is a pretty good offlaner. Probably the best clockwerk player in the scene now and clock is a great hero to create space for your carry. He's pretty good at Beastmaster and Tinker too. The rest of his heroes are pretty average, but as an offlaner you don't really need the hero variety that other positions do. Just look at Bulldog. He basically played Furion and BH in the vast majority of games during the tournament.
Both TC and Korok are really good players. Korok can polish his play a bit but TC farms extremely well and dies very little. His play is textbook, but that's good-Chinese carries and players like Black also play pretty textbook, but they're relatively successful. TC's OD is also pretty beastly, though it'd probably be better for their drafts if Korok played it.
Fluff, what does he actually play well? I suppose his visage is good, but that hardly sets him apart nowadays when everyone has started playing visage. Most supports are better at visage than him anyway. He and TC seem to swap off the drafting, but Liquid's drafting is incredibly weak. They don't seem to have developed a proper style and a lot of the time it looks like they are uncoordinated. I think a lot of this comes down to the supports. What does Mike play well? Normally the vast majority of the time I realize he's in the game is when he dies. I think there was once a highlight of him stealing RP or something, walking into a fight and getting a nice RP off. That I believe is the only time I've seen him do something truly skilled, whereas you see it all the time from other supports and quite a bit more often from the 1-3 positions on Liquid.
Neither Fluff nor Mike play Wisp well, nor Naga (despite the fact that coL/Liquid were one of the first teams to pick naga as a support) nor Chen, nor Enchantress, nor Shadow Demon, nor Rubick. They're both mediocre at best on all of the top supports. Other teams have supports like Puppey, Kuroky, EGM, Akke, Smile, Chuan, Faith, Goblak, Silent, n0tail, Fly, etc. All of the top teams have a good 4 position Chen/Enchantress player. Almost all of them utilize it often as a pick, particularly the EU teams. Just look at Alliance, Na'Vi, Fnatic.
TL needs better supports and a good drafter to rejuvenate their team. Korok leaving wouldn't help them, IMO.
e: even players like Maelk and Puppey, who have fallen off a bit, are excellent for their teams because of their leadership and drafting skills. Maelk's situation is different from Puppey's obviously, but I remember back when Kuroky joined Na'Vi, Puppey looked really shaky on some of his supports. He still sort of does, but what's invaluable to Na'Vi is the experience he brings. Liquid doesn't seem to have that and I think they really need it.
On August 18 2013 19:23 Testuser wrote: If Korok is out that's quite sad for Liquid - hey'll only really have Bulba as a good player then, imo. I would replace Fluff/Mike/TC.
Nah. Wish EG weren't keeping jeyo so Liquid could make it coL -hannah +bulba. What a sick team.
That's a team set up for accomplishing absolutely nothing, haha ...
Do you not remember that TC/mike/fluff/jeyo/hannah won The Defense 2 and were the best non-Na`Vi team at TI2? You have a weird definition of "nothing."
? they lost at the same time as EG/Darer/CLG. And i dont recall them being amazing. Beside the super famous 'no rax, creeps in base' smoke
CoL did quite a bit better in the groupstages than those other teams you mention. Which wasn't very surprising, since they were the dominant Western team in the 2 months leading up to TI2. Considering they made the winner bracket, I certainly wouldn't place them in the same group as CLG and Darer. In the end they performed similarly or slightly better than EG, being able to take games/series off the Eastern teams. (It's honestly getting tiresome having to explain this to the same people over and over again btw)
In term of winnings, CLG is ahead. And groupstages matters so much right ? Col was never the dominant team, the western scene was actually quite even between a couple of teams when you think about it.
There are a few things I could talk about, like the fact that CLG being in EU gave them more opportunities to win prize money. But I have a feeling that anything I'd bring up would turn out to "not matter so much," just like group stages in the biggest tournament in Dota.
I'll be honest, I don't think being in TI2 or TI3 is enough to make a team great. Yes, of course they've accomplished more than I ever could and they're amazing for making it so far and how dare I say anything bad when I'm a lowly scrub pleb, but honestly, Col didn't impress me at all @TI2 and while Liquid did perform quite well @TI3, it didn't convince me at all. I'm sorry, but I feel like Korok and Bulba are extremely skilled individuals, and I don't find their teammates as good. Fluff seems like a super nice guy, but his draft seems bland and predictable. TC did perform really, really well @TI3, that I have to concede, but I haven't seen anything from him that'd convince me he's the right carry for the Liquid team.
Sorry for talking so about a team you obviously like !
Liquid's supports are definitely their weak points.
Bulba is a pretty good offlaner. Probably the best clockwerk player in the scene now and clock is a great hero to create space for your carry. He's pretty good at Beastmaster and Tinker too. The rest of his heroes are pretty average, but as an offlaner you don't really need the hero variety that other positions do. Just look at Bulldog. He basically played Furion and BH in the vast majority of games during the tournament.
Both TC and Korok are really good players. Korok can polish his play a bit but TC farms extremely well and dies very little. His play is textbook, but that's good-Chinese carries and players like Black also play pretty textbook, but they're relatively successful. TC's OD is also pretty beastly, though it'd probably be better for their drafts if Korok played it.
Fluff, what does he actually play well? I suppose his visage is good, but that hardly sets him apart nowadays when everyone has started playing visage. Most supports are better at visage than him anyway. He and TC seem to swap off the drafting, but Liquid's drafting is incredibly weak. They don't seem to have developed a proper style and a lot of the time it looks like they are uncoordinated. I think a lot of this comes down to the supports. What does Mike play well? Normally the vast majority of the time I realize he's in the game is when he dies. I think there was once a highlight of him stealing RP or something, walking into a fight and getting a nice RP off. That I believe is the only time I've seen him do something truly skilled, whereas you see it all the time from other supports and quite a bit more often from the 1-3 positions on Liquid.
Neither Fluff nor Mike play Wisp well, nor Naga (despite the fact that coL/Liquid were one of the first teams to pick naga as a support) nor Chen, nor Enchantress, nor Shadow Demon, nor Rubick. They're both mediocre at best on all of the top supports. Other teams have supports like Puppey, Kuroky, EGM, Akke, Smile, Chuan, Faith, Goblak, Silent, n0tail, Fly, etc. All of the top teams have a good 4 position Chen/Enchantress player. Almost all of them utilize it often as a pick, particularly the EU teams. Just look at Alliance, Na'Vi, Fnatic.
TL needs better supports and a good drafter to rejuvenate their team. Korok leaving wouldn't help them, IMO.
e: even players like Maelk and Puppey, who have fallen off a bit, are excellent for their teams because of their leadership and drafting skills. Maelk's situation is different from Puppey's obviously, but I remember back when Kuroky joined Na'Vi, Puppey looked really shaky on some of his supports. He still sort of does, but what's invaluable to Na'Vi is the experience he brings. Liquid doesn't seem to have that and I think they really need it.
I like the recognition you give to TC (not enough people seem to do so because he's usually not playing the heroes that make flashy plays) but I think you're undervaluing Fluff's Chen, and his capability in general. Yes, Liquid has games where both him and Mike seem to wander around aimlessly and underleveled, it's those games where their lanes/strategy didn't work out as planned and they can't seem to adapt well enough. But when FLUFF is on his game he's extremely good with nearly every support hero. I've seen plenty of top NA players rank him in a top10 of NA's best players. Mike's pool seems to be a lot smaller and heroes with skillshots don't seem to be his forte (similar to Bdiz ) but on his top heroes he is extremely reliable and actually pretty clutch as well. Mostly the traditional hard supports: SD, CM, Lich, Venge.
The duo certainly has their weaknesses though; mainly their trilane execution which is really hit and miss (they've said so themselves). And then there's the drafts that are sometimes so reliant on perfect execution in the early game that they have no plan B to fall back on if things don't work out.
On August 18 2013 19:44 motbob wrote: [quote] Nah. Wish EG weren't keeping jeyo so Liquid could make it coL -hannah +bulba. What a sick team.
That's a team set up for accomplishing absolutely nothing, haha ...
Do you not remember that TC/mike/fluff/jeyo/hannah won The Defense 2 and were the best non-Na`Vi team at TI2? You have a weird definition of "nothing."
? they lost at the same time as EG/Darer/CLG. And i dont recall them being amazing. Beside the super famous 'no rax, creeps in base' smoke
CoL did quite a bit better in the groupstages than those other teams you mention. Which wasn't very surprising, since they were the dominant Western team in the 2 months leading up to TI2. Considering they made the winner bracket, I certainly wouldn't place them in the same group as CLG and Darer. In the end they performed similarly or slightly better than EG, being able to take games/series off the Eastern teams. (It's honestly getting tiresome having to explain this to the same people over and over again btw)
In term of winnings, CLG is ahead. And groupstages matters so much right ? Col was never the dominant team, the western scene was actually quite even between a couple of teams when you think about it.
There are a few things I could talk about, like the fact that CLG being in EU gave them more opportunities to win prize money. But I have a feeling that anything I'd bring up would turn out to "not matter so much," just like group stages in the biggest tournament in Dota.
I'll be honest, I don't think being in TI2 or TI3 is enough to make a team great. Yes, of course they've accomplished more than I ever could and they're amazing for making it so far and how dare I say anything bad when I'm a lowly scrub pleb, but honestly, Col didn't impress me at all @TI2 and while Liquid did perform quite well @TI3, it didn't convince me at all. I'm sorry, but I feel like Korok and Bulba are extremely skilled individuals, and I don't find their teammates as good. Fluff seems like a super nice guy, but his draft seems bland and predictable. TC did perform really, really well @TI3, that I have to concede, but I haven't seen anything from him that'd convince me he's the right carry for the Liquid team.
Sorry for talking so about a team you obviously like !
Liquid's supports are definitely their weak points.
Bulba is a pretty good offlaner. Probably the best clockwerk player in the scene now and clock is a great hero to create space for your carry. He's pretty good at Beastmaster and Tinker too. The rest of his heroes are pretty average, but as an offlaner you don't really need the hero variety that other positions do. Just look at Bulldog. He basically played Furion and BH in the vast majority of games during the tournament.
Both TC and Korok are really good players. Korok can polish his play a bit but TC farms extremely well and dies very little. His play is textbook, but that's good-Chinese carries and players like Black also play pretty textbook, but they're relatively successful. TC's OD is also pretty beastly, though it'd probably be better for their drafts if Korok played it.
Fluff, what does he actually play well? I suppose his visage is good, but that hardly sets him apart nowadays when everyone has started playing visage. Most supports are better at visage than him anyway. He and TC seem to swap off the drafting, but Liquid's drafting is incredibly weak. They don't seem to have developed a proper style and a lot of the time it looks like they are uncoordinated. I think a lot of this comes down to the supports. What does Mike play well? Normally the vast majority of the time I realize he's in the game is when he dies. I think there was once a highlight of him stealing RP or something, walking into a fight and getting a nice RP off. That I believe is the only time I've seen him do something truly skilled, whereas you see it all the time from other supports and quite a bit more often from the 1-3 positions on Liquid.
Neither Fluff nor Mike play Wisp well, nor Naga (despite the fact that coL/Liquid were one of the first teams to pick naga as a support) nor Chen, nor Enchantress, nor Shadow Demon, nor Rubick. They're both mediocre at best on all of the top supports. Other teams have supports like Puppey, Kuroky, EGM, Akke, Smile, Chuan, Faith, Goblak, Silent, n0tail, Fly, etc. All of the top teams have a good 4 position Chen/Enchantress player. Almost all of them utilize it often as a pick, particularly the EU teams. Just look at Alliance, Na'Vi, Fnatic.
TL needs better supports and a good drafter to rejuvenate their team. Korok leaving wouldn't help them, IMO.
e: even players like Maelk and Puppey, who have fallen off a bit, are excellent for their teams because of their leadership and drafting skills. Maelk's situation is different from Puppey's obviously, but I remember back when Kuroky joined Na'Vi, Puppey looked really shaky on some of his supports. He still sort of does, but what's invaluable to Na'Vi is the experience he brings. Liquid doesn't seem to have that and I think they really need it.
I like the recognition you give to TC (not enough people seem to do so because he's usually not playing the heroes that make flashy plays) but I think you're undervaluing Fluff's Chen, and his capability in general. Yes, Liquid has games where both him and Mike seem to wander around aimlessly and underleveled, it's those games where their lanes/strategy didn't work out as planned and they can't seem to adapt well enough. But when FLUFF is on his game he's extremely good with nearly every support hero. I've seen plenty of top NA players rank him in a top10 of NA's best players. Mike's pool seems to be a lot smaller and heroes with skillshots don't seem to be his forte (similar to Bdiz ) but on his top heroes he is extremely reliable and actually pretty clutch as well. Mostly the traditional hard supports: SD, CM, Lich, Venge.
The duo certainly has their weaknesses though; mainly their trilane execution which is really hit and miss (they've said so themselves). And then there's the drafts that are sometimes so reliant on perfect execution in the early game that they have no plan B to fall back on if things don't work out.
I'm sure his Chen is good but it doesn't matter if Liquid never picks Chen, or never drafts around Chen. This doesn't get to the Wisp problem, either. Liquid has a LOT of games like that. IMO a lot of the time they win, it has little to do with the support play. A lot of the time they lose, it has a lot to do with the support play (on both sides)
The simple fact is that these guys are professional players. If as a support your hero pool is limited to those heroes (like for Mike) and yet you are still not good with them, there is something pretty wrong. There are other players in the western scene who also play mostly support, and are not known for their flashy plays, but are still quite fearsome on certain heroes. For example, 1437 plays a really good SD, among other heroes.
If it comes down to the synergy between Mike+Fluff, again, that's a support problem. If they readily admit their trilanes suck then they need to do something about it, as trilaning is a huge part of competitive play. Trilanes are 2/3 about the supports (arguably moreso). Generally the supports call the plays, they create the space, and they control the flow of the game. They're arguably the most important aspects of the early-mid game, if not the entire game proper. It's pretty apparent that Liquid's supports are the weakest of the top 8 at TI.
On August 18 2013 19:23 Testuser wrote: If Korok is out that's quite sad for Liquid - hey'll only really have Bulba as a good player then, imo. I would replace Fluff/Mike/TC.
Nah. Wish EG weren't keeping jeyo so Liquid could make it coL -hannah +bulba. What a sick team.
That's a team set up for accomplishing absolutely nothing, haha ...
Do you not remember that TC/mike/fluff/jeyo/hannah won The Defense 2 and were the best non-Na`Vi team at TI2? You have a weird definition of "nothing."
? they lost at the same time as EG/Darer/CLG. And i dont recall them being amazing. Beside the super famous 'no rax, creeps in base' smoke
CoL did quite a bit better in the groupstages than those other teams you mention. Which wasn't very surprising, since they were the dominant Western team in the 2 months leading up to TI2. Considering they made the winner bracket, I certainly wouldn't place them in the same group as CLG and Darer. In the end they performed similarly or slightly better than EG, being able to take games/series off the Eastern teams. (It's honestly getting tiresome having to explain this to the same people over and over again btw)
In term of winnings, CLG is ahead. And groupstages matters so much right ? Col was never the dominant team, the western scene was actually quite even between a couple of teams when you think about it.
There are a few things I could talk about, like the fact that CLG being in EU gave them more opportunities to win prize money. But I have a feeling that anything I'd bring up would turn out to "not matter so much," just like group stages in the biggest tournament in Dota.
I'll be honest, I don't think being in TI2 or TI3 is enough to make a team great. Yes, of course they've accomplished more than I ever could and they're amazing for making it so far and how dare I say anything bad when I'm a lowly scrub pleb, but honestly, Col didn't impress me at all @TI2 and while Liquid did perform quite well @TI3, it didn't convince me at all. I'm sorry, but I feel like Korok and Bulba are extremely skilled individuals, and I don't find their teammates as good. Fluff seems like a super nice guy, but his draft seems bland and predictable. TC did perform really, really well @TI3, that I have to concede, but I haven't seen anything from him that'd convince me he's the right carry for the Liquid team.
Sorry for talking so about a team you obviously like !
Liquid's supports are definitely their weak points.
Bulba is a pretty good offlaner. Probably the best clockwerk player in the scene now and clock is a great hero to create space for your carry. He's pretty good at Beastmaster and Tinker too. The rest of his heroes are pretty average, but as an offlaner you don't really need the hero variety that other positions do. Just look at Bulldog. He basically played Furion and BH in the vast majority of games during the tournament.
Both TC and Korok are really good players. Korok can polish his play a bit but TC farms extremely well and dies very little. His play is textbook, but that's good-Chinese carries and players like Black also play pretty textbook, but they're relatively successful. TC's OD is also pretty beastly, though it'd probably be better for their drafts if Korok played it.
Fluff, what does he actually play well? I suppose his visage is good, but that hardly sets him apart nowadays when everyone has started playing visage. Most supports are better at visage than him anyway. He and TC seem to swap off the drafting, but Liquid's drafting is incredibly weak. They don't seem to have developed a proper style and a lot of the time it looks like they are uncoordinated. I think a lot of this comes down to the supports. What does Mike play well? Normally the vast majority of the time I realize he's in the game is when he dies. I think there was once a highlight of him stealing RP or something, walking into a fight and getting a nice RP off. That I believe is the only time I've seen him do something truly skilled, whereas you see it all the time from other supports and quite a bit more often from the 1-3 positions on Liquid.
Neither Fluff nor Mike play Wisp well, nor Naga (despite the fact that coL/Liquid were one of the first teams to pick naga as a support) nor Chen, nor Enchantress, nor Shadow Demon, nor Rubick. They're both mediocre at best on all of the top supports. Other teams have supports like Puppey, Kuroky, EGM, Akke, Smile, Chuan, Faith, Goblak, Silent, n0tail, Fly, etc. All of the top teams have a good 4 position Chen/Enchantress player. Almost all of them utilize it often as a pick, particularly the EU teams. Just look at Alliance, Na'Vi, Fnatic.
TL needs better supports and a good drafter to rejuvenate their team. Korok leaving wouldn't help them, IMO.
e: even players like Maelk and Puppey, who have fallen off a bit, are excellent for their teams because of their leadership and drafting skills. Maelk's situation is different from Puppey's obviously, but I remember back when Kuroky joined Na'Vi, Puppey looked really shaky on some of his supports. He still sort of does, but what's invaluable to Na'Vi is the experience he brings. Liquid doesn't seem to have that and I think they really need it.
I'll agree that ixmike appears to be simply competent and not outstanding, but FLUFF is a pretty excellent 4 position. His positioning during teamfights is generally perfect, and he'll regularly manage to make pretty big plays. The reason Korok is being proposed as the cutting-board player isn't because his skill is inferior (it certainly isn't), it's because his playstyle contrasts so harshly with the rest of Liquid. He is far and away the most aggressive player there, and that can sometimes put the whole team into a very bad position. Interviews with FLUFF show that this dynamic between TC and Korok are the biggest challenge the team faces, and show that they've indeed been making some progress on it, which lowers the likelihood that Korok will be leaving. Interestingly, he also lists it as a reason for their success. I think it's definitely a wait-and-see sort of thing, though.
On August 18 2013 19:44 motbob wrote: [quote] Nah. Wish EG weren't keeping jeyo so Liquid could make it coL -hannah +bulba. What a sick team.
That's a team set up for accomplishing absolutely nothing, haha ...
Do you not remember that TC/mike/fluff/jeyo/hannah won The Defense 2 and were the best non-Na`Vi team at TI2? You have a weird definition of "nothing."
? they lost at the same time as EG/Darer/CLG. And i dont recall them being amazing. Beside the super famous 'no rax, creeps in base' smoke
CoL did quite a bit better in the groupstages than those other teams you mention. Which wasn't very surprising, since they were the dominant Western team in the 2 months leading up to TI2. Considering they made the winner bracket, I certainly wouldn't place them in the same group as CLG and Darer. In the end they performed similarly or slightly better than EG, being able to take games/series off the Eastern teams. (It's honestly getting tiresome having to explain this to the same people over and over again btw)
In term of winnings, CLG is ahead. And groupstages matters so much right ? Col was never the dominant team, the western scene was actually quite even between a couple of teams when you think about it.
There are a few things I could talk about, like the fact that CLG being in EU gave them more opportunities to win prize money. But I have a feeling that anything I'd bring up would turn out to "not matter so much," just like group stages in the biggest tournament in Dota.
I'll be honest, I don't think being in TI2 or TI3 is enough to make a team great. Yes, of course they've accomplished more than I ever could and they're amazing for making it so far and how dare I say anything bad when I'm a lowly scrub pleb, but honestly, Col didn't impress me at all @TI2 and while Liquid did perform quite well @TI3, it didn't convince me at all. I'm sorry, but I feel like Korok and Bulba are extremely skilled individuals, and I don't find their teammates as good. Fluff seems like a super nice guy, but his draft seems bland and predictable. TC did perform really, really well @TI3, that I have to concede, but I haven't seen anything from him that'd convince me he's the right carry for the Liquid team.
Sorry for talking so about a team you obviously like !
Liquid's supports are definitely their weak points.
Bulba is a pretty good offlaner. Probably the best clockwerk player in the scene now and clock is a great hero to create space for your carry. He's pretty good at Beastmaster and Tinker too. The rest of his heroes are pretty average, but as an offlaner you don't really need the hero variety that other positions do. Just look at Bulldog. He basically played Furion and BH in the vast majority of games during the tournament.
Both TC and Korok are really good players. Korok can polish his play a bit but TC farms extremely well and dies very little. His play is textbook, but that's good-Chinese carries and players like Black also play pretty textbook, but they're relatively successful. TC's OD is also pretty beastly, though it'd probably be better for their drafts if Korok played it.
Fluff, what does he actually play well? I suppose his visage is good, but that hardly sets him apart nowadays when everyone has started playing visage. Most supports are better at visage than him anyway. He and TC seem to swap off the drafting, but Liquid's drafting is incredibly weak. They don't seem to have developed a proper style and a lot of the time it looks like they are uncoordinated. I think a lot of this comes down to the supports. What does Mike play well? Normally the vast majority of the time I realize he's in the game is when he dies. I think there was once a highlight of him stealing RP or something, walking into a fight and getting a nice RP off. That I believe is the only time I've seen him do something truly skilled, whereas you see it all the time from other supports and quite a bit more often from the 1-3 positions on Liquid.
Neither Fluff nor Mike play Wisp well, nor Naga (despite the fact that coL/Liquid were one of the first teams to pick naga as a support) nor Chen, nor Enchantress, nor Shadow Demon, nor Rubick. They're both mediocre at best on all of the top supports. Other teams have supports like Puppey, Kuroky, EGM, Akke, Smile, Chuan, Faith, Goblak, Silent, n0tail, Fly, etc. All of the top teams have a good 4 position Chen/Enchantress player. Almost all of them utilize it often as a pick, particularly the EU teams. Just look at Alliance, Na'Vi, Fnatic.
TL needs better supports and a good drafter to rejuvenate their team. Korok leaving wouldn't help them, IMO.
e: even players like Maelk and Puppey, who have fallen off a bit, are excellent for their teams because of their leadership and drafting skills. Maelk's situation is different from Puppey's obviously, but I remember back when Kuroky joined Na'Vi, Puppey looked really shaky on some of his supports. He still sort of does, but what's invaluable to Na'Vi is the experience he brings. Liquid doesn't seem to have that and I think they really need it.
I'll agree that ixmike appears to be simply competent and not outstanding, but FLUFF is a pretty excellent 4 position. His positioning during teamfights is generally perfect, and he'll regularly manage to make pretty big plays. The reason Korok is being proposed as the cutting-board player isn't because his skill is inferior (it certainly isn't), it's because his playstyle contrasts so harshly with the rest of Liquid. He is far and away the most aggressive player there, and that can sometimes put the whole team into a very bad position. Interviews with FLUFF show that this dynamic between TC and Korok are the biggest challenge the team faces, and show that they've indeed been making some progress on it, which lowers the likelihood that Korok will be leaving. Interestingly, he also lists it as a reason for their success. I think it's definitely a wait-and-see sort of thing, though.
Korok being aggressive IS probably a great reason for their success.
Most of the top teams have very aggressive mids/2 positions. That's generally the most successful way to play the role.
In fact, many of the top teams have very aggressive 2 positions despite their carries being less aggressive. That's a dynamic inherent to the roles, IMO.
lol bunch of bronzies think they're good enough to actually evaluate how good a pro player is. Keep up your analysis boys, they are very insightful! I'm sure if you theorycraft all day and just watch games, you'll become a good player in no time!
On August 18 2013 19:23 Testuser wrote: If Korok is out that's quite sad for Liquid - hey'll only really have Bulba as a good player then, imo. I would replace Fluff/Mike/TC.
Who the hell would you replace TC with?
Any carry you could remotely consider his equal or superior in the West (IMO just Loda, but you could make the argument for a few other players if you really wanted to) is not going to leave their team. He's quite frankly far and away the best carry player available to TL and enormously valuable to them.
On August 18 2013 19:51 Testuser wrote: [quote] That's a team set up for accomplishing absolutely nothing, haha ...
Do you not remember that TC/mike/fluff/jeyo/hannah won The Defense 2 and were the best non-Na`Vi team at TI2? You have a weird definition of "nothing."
? they lost at the same time as EG/Darer/CLG. And i dont recall them being amazing. Beside the super famous 'no rax, creeps in base' smoke
CoL did quite a bit better in the groupstages than those other teams you mention. Which wasn't very surprising, since they were the dominant Western team in the 2 months leading up to TI2. Considering they made the winner bracket, I certainly wouldn't place them in the same group as CLG and Darer. In the end they performed similarly or slightly better than EG, being able to take games/series off the Eastern teams. (It's honestly getting tiresome having to explain this to the same people over and over again btw)
In term of winnings, CLG is ahead. And groupstages matters so much right ? Col was never the dominant team, the western scene was actually quite even between a couple of teams when you think about it.
There are a few things I could talk about, like the fact that CLG being in EU gave them more opportunities to win prize money. But I have a feeling that anything I'd bring up would turn out to "not matter so much," just like group stages in the biggest tournament in Dota.
I'll be honest, I don't think being in TI2 or TI3 is enough to make a team great. Yes, of course they've accomplished more than I ever could and they're amazing for making it so far and how dare I say anything bad when I'm a lowly scrub pleb, but honestly, Col didn't impress me at all @TI2 and while Liquid did perform quite well @TI3, it didn't convince me at all. I'm sorry, but I feel like Korok and Bulba are extremely skilled individuals, and I don't find their teammates as good. Fluff seems like a super nice guy, but his draft seems bland and predictable. TC did perform really, really well @TI3, that I have to concede, but I haven't seen anything from him that'd convince me he's the right carry for the Liquid team.
Sorry for talking so about a team you obviously like !
Liquid's supports are definitely their weak points.
Bulba is a pretty good offlaner. Probably the best clockwerk player in the scene now and clock is a great hero to create space for your carry. He's pretty good at Beastmaster and Tinker too. The rest of his heroes are pretty average, but as an offlaner you don't really need the hero variety that other positions do. Just look at Bulldog. He basically played Furion and BH in the vast majority of games during the tournament.
Both TC and Korok are really good players. Korok can polish his play a bit but TC farms extremely well and dies very little. His play is textbook, but that's good-Chinese carries and players like Black also play pretty textbook, but they're relatively successful. TC's OD is also pretty beastly, though it'd probably be better for their drafts if Korok played it.
Fluff, what does he actually play well? I suppose his visage is good, but that hardly sets him apart nowadays when everyone has started playing visage. Most supports are better at visage than him anyway. He and TC seem to swap off the drafting, but Liquid's drafting is incredibly weak. They don't seem to have developed a proper style and a lot of the time it looks like they are uncoordinated. I think a lot of this comes down to the supports. What does Mike play well? Normally the vast majority of the time I realize he's in the game is when he dies. I think there was once a highlight of him stealing RP or something, walking into a fight and getting a nice RP off. That I believe is the only time I've seen him do something truly skilled, whereas you see it all the time from other supports and quite a bit more often from the 1-3 positions on Liquid.
Neither Fluff nor Mike play Wisp well, nor Naga (despite the fact that coL/Liquid were one of the first teams to pick naga as a support) nor Chen, nor Enchantress, nor Shadow Demon, nor Rubick. They're both mediocre at best on all of the top supports. Other teams have supports like Puppey, Kuroky, EGM, Akke, Smile, Chuan, Faith, Goblak, Silent, n0tail, Fly, etc. All of the top teams have a good 4 position Chen/Enchantress player. Almost all of them utilize it often as a pick, particularly the EU teams. Just look at Alliance, Na'Vi, Fnatic.
TL needs better supports and a good drafter to rejuvenate their team. Korok leaving wouldn't help them, IMO.
e: even players like Maelk and Puppey, who have fallen off a bit, are excellent for their teams because of their leadership and drafting skills. Maelk's situation is different from Puppey's obviously, but I remember back when Kuroky joined Na'Vi, Puppey looked really shaky on some of his supports. He still sort of does, but what's invaluable to Na'Vi is the experience he brings. Liquid doesn't seem to have that and I think they really need it.
I'll agree that ixmike appears to be simply competent and not outstanding, but FLUFF is a pretty excellent 4 position. His positioning during teamfights is generally perfect, and he'll regularly manage to make pretty big plays. The reason Korok is being proposed as the cutting-board player isn't because his skill is inferior (it certainly isn't), it's because his playstyle contrasts so harshly with the rest of Liquid. He is far and away the most aggressive player there, and that can sometimes put the whole team into a very bad position. Interviews with FLUFF show that this dynamic between TC and Korok are the biggest challenge the team faces, and show that they've indeed been making some progress on it, which lowers the likelihood that Korok will be leaving. Interestingly, he also lists it as a reason for their success. I think it's definitely a wait-and-see sort of thing, though.
Korok being aggressive IS probably a great reason for their success.
Most of the top teams have very aggressive mids/2 positions. That's generally the most successful way to play the role.
In fact, many of the top teams have very aggressive 2 positions despite their carries being less aggressive. That's a dynamic inherent to the roles, IMO.
Most 2 position players are not Korok. It's kind of unreal how aggressive he can be. I'll agree that the 2 position is inherently more aggressive than the 1 position, but TC and Korok bring that difference to a whole new level. When I was watching TI3 on DotaTV, the other spectators and I just followed Korok around the whole game to see what crazy shit he would pull next. It's just not like that for any of the other 2 pos players.
On August 18 2013 19:23 Testuser wrote: If Korok is out that's quite sad for Liquid - hey'll only really have Bulba as a good player then, imo. I would replace Fluff/Mike/TC.
Nah. Wish EG weren't keeping jeyo so Liquid could make it coL -hannah +bulba. What a sick team.
That's a team set up for accomplishing absolutely nothing, haha ...
Do you not remember that TC/mike/fluff/jeyo/hannah won The Defense 2 and were the best non-Na`Vi team at TI2? You have a weird definition of "nothing."
? they lost at the same time as EG/Darer/CLG. And i dont recall them being amazing. Beside the super famous 'no rax, creeps in base' smoke
CoL did quite a bit better in the groupstages than those other teams you mention. Which wasn't very surprising, since they were the dominant Western team in the 2 months leading up to TI2. Considering they made the winner bracket, I certainly wouldn't place them in the same group as CLG and Darer. In the end they performed similarly or slightly better than EG, being able to take games/series off the Eastern teams. (It's honestly getting tiresome having to explain this to the same people over and over again btw)
In term of winnings, CLG is ahead. And groupstages matters so much right ? Col was never the dominant team, the western scene was actually quite even between a couple of teams when you think about it.
There are a few things I could talk about, like the fact that CLG being in EU gave them more opportunities to win prize money. But I have a feeling that anything I'd bring up would turn out to "not matter so much," just like group stages in the biggest tournament in Dota.
I'll be honest, I don't think being in TI2 or TI3 is enough to make a team great. Yes, of course they've accomplished more than I ever could and they're amazing for making it so far and how dare I say anything bad when I'm a lowly scrub pleb, but honestly, Col didn't impress me at all @TI2 and while Liquid did perform quite well @TI3, it didn't convince me at all. I'm sorry, but I feel like Korok and Bulba are extremely skilled individuals, and I don't find their teammates as good. Fluff seems like a super nice guy, but his draft seems bland and predictable. TC did perform really, really well @TI3, that I have to concede, but I haven't seen anything from him that'd convince me he's the right carry for the Liquid team.
Sorry for talking so about a team you obviously like !
Liquid's supports are definitely their weak points.
Bulba is a pretty good offlaner. Probably the best clockwerk player in the scene now and clock is a great hero to create space for your carry. He's pretty good at Beastmaster and Tinker too. The rest of his heroes are pretty average, but as an offlaner you don't really need the hero variety that other positions do. Just look at Bulldog. He basically played Furion and BH in the vast majority of games during the tournament.
Both TC and Korok are really good players. Korok can polish his play a bit but TC farms extremely well and dies very little. His play is textbook, but that's good-Chinese carries and players like Black also play pretty textbook, but they're relatively successful. TC's OD is also pretty beastly, though it'd probably be better for their drafts if Korok played it.
Fluff, what does he actually play well? I suppose his visage is good, but that hardly sets him apart nowadays when everyone has started playing visage. Most supports are better at visage than him anyway. He and TC seem to swap off the drafting, but Liquid's drafting is incredibly weak. They don't seem to have developed a proper style and a lot of the time it looks like they are uncoordinated. I think a lot of this comes down to the supports. What does Mike play well? Normally the vast majority of the time I realize he's in the game is when he dies. I think there was once a highlight of him stealing RP or something, walking into a fight and getting a nice RP off. That I believe is the only time I've seen him do something truly skilled, whereas you see it all the time from other supports and quite a bit more often from the 1-3 positions on Liquid.
Neither Fluff nor Mike play Wisp well, nor Naga (despite the fact that coL/Liquid were one of the first teams to pick naga as a support) nor Chen, nor Enchantress, nor Shadow Demon, nor Rubick. They're both mediocre at best on all of the top supports. Other teams have supports like Puppey, Kuroky, EGM, Akke, Smile, Chuan, Faith, Goblak, Silent, n0tail, Fly, etc. All of the top teams have a good 4 position Chen/Enchantress player. Almost all of them utilize it often as a pick, particularly the EU teams. Just look at Alliance, Na'Vi, Fnatic.
TL needs better supports and a good drafter to rejuvenate their team. Korok leaving wouldn't help them, IMO.
e: even players like Maelk and Puppey, who have fallen off a bit, are excellent for their teams because of their leadership and drafting skills. Maelk's situation is different from Puppey's obviously, but I remember back when Kuroky joined Na'Vi, Puppey looked really shaky on some of his supports. He still sort of does, but what's invaluable to Na'Vi is the experience he brings. Liquid doesn't seem to have that and I think they really need it.
Dude you should totally share this analysis with /r/dota2. I'm sure you'll get lots of upvotes and people agreeing with you!! This analysis is superb and really shows that you know competitive dota!!!
On August 18 2013 19:23 Testuser wrote: If Korok is out that's quite sad for Liquid - hey'll only really have Bulba as a good player then, imo. I would replace Fluff/Mike/TC.
Who the hell would you replace TC with?
Any carry you could remotely consider his equal or superior in the West (IMO just Loda, but you could make the argument for a few other players if you really wanted to) is not going to leave their team. He's quite frankly far and away the best carry player available to TL and enormously valuable to them.
TC is just a very strong, very stable all around player, losing him would be a huge blow to Liquid
As for Korok, he's an exceptional player, i don't doubt that at all, but there are a lot of great players who want to play mid in NA.
On August 18 2013 19:23 Testuser wrote: If Korok is out that's quite sad for Liquid - hey'll only really have Bulba as a good player then, imo. I would replace Fluff/Mike/TC.
Who the hell would you replace TC with?
Any carry you could remotely consider his equal or superior in the West (IMO just Loda, but you could make the argument for a few other players if you really wanted to) is not going to leave their team. He's quite frankly far and away the best carry player available to TL and enormously valuable to them.
TheYango dropping the truth...
TC is probably the best player on TL/least replaceable.(though I'm not 100% sold on his drafting) He's western "burning" remember haha. To be honest, Korok plays the position that is most easily replaced in NA.
As other posters have mentioned, the problem about dropping mike is that there aren't many NA stars who play a very good 5 position support. The poster who listed all those world class 4/5 position players basically showed how the best who play the position are almost all outside of NA.
On August 18 2013 19:23 Testuser wrote: If Korok is out that's quite sad for Liquid - hey'll only really have Bulba as a good player then, imo. I would replace Fluff/Mike/TC.
Nah. Wish EG weren't keeping jeyo so Liquid could make it coL -hannah +bulba. What a sick team.
That's a team set up for accomplishing absolutely nothing, haha ...
Do you not remember that TC/mike/fluff/jeyo/hannah won The Defense 2 and were the best non-Na`Vi team at TI2? You have a weird definition of "nothing."
? they lost at the same time as EG/Darer/CLG. And i dont recall them being amazing. Beside the super famous 'no rax, creeps in base' smoke
CoL did quite a bit better in the groupstages than those other teams you mention. Which wasn't very surprising, since they were the dominant Western team in the 2 months leading up to TI2. Considering they made the winner bracket, I certainly wouldn't place them in the same group as CLG and Darer. In the end they performed similarly or slightly better than EG, being able to take games/series off the Eastern teams. (It's honestly getting tiresome having to explain this to the same people over and over again btw)
In term of winnings, CLG is ahead. And groupstages matters so much right ? Col was never the dominant team, the western scene was actually quite even between a couple of teams when you think about it.
There are a few things I could talk about, like the fact that CLG being in EU gave them more opportunities to win prize money. But I have a feeling that anything I'd bring up would turn out to "not matter so much," just like group stages in the biggest tournament in Dota.
Group stages don't matter as much as the 'real' tournament, I thought it was clear when Navi won ti2.
On August 18 2013 19:23 Testuser wrote: If Korok is out that's quite sad for Liquid - hey'll only really have Bulba as a good player then, imo. I would replace Fluff/Mike/TC.
Nah. Wish EG weren't keeping jeyo so Liquid could make it coL -hannah +bulba. What a sick team.
That's a team set up for accomplishing absolutely nothing, haha ...
Do you not remember that TC/mike/fluff/jeyo/hannah won The Defense 2 and were the best non-Na`Vi team at TI2? You have a weird definition of "nothing."
? they lost at the same time as EG/Darer/CLG. And i dont recall them being amazing. Beside the super famous 'no rax, creeps in base' smoke
CoL did quite a bit better in the groupstages than those other teams you mention. Which wasn't very surprising, since they were the dominant Western team in the 2 months leading up to TI2. Considering they made the winner bracket, I certainly wouldn't place them in the same group as CLG and Darer. In the end they performed similarly or slightly better than EG, being able to take games/series off the Eastern teams. (It's honestly getting tiresome having to explain this to the same people over and over again btw)
In term of winnings, CLG is ahead. And groupstages matters so much right ? Col was never the dominant team, the western scene was actually quite even between a couple of teams when you think about it.
There are a few things I could talk about, like the fact that CLG being in EU gave them more opportunities to win prize money. But I have a feeling that anything I'd bring up would turn out to "not matter so much," just like group stages in the biggest tournament in Dota.
Group stages don't matter as much as the 'real' tournament, I thought it was clear when Navi won ti2.
I cannot dispute that the incredibly high-stakes group stages of TI2 did not matter as much as the incredibly high-stakes elimination bracket of TI2.
EPT
) but on his top heroes he is extremely reliable and actually pretty clutch as well. Mostly the traditional hard supports: SD, CM, Lich, Venge.
