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TC on weaver man.[/QUOTE]
Is he the one with the worst Time Lapses imaginable? Or was that Korok?[/QUOTE]
I believe he was referring to that game vs ??? in the International where he absolutely carried Liquid so hard. The other 4 were playing poorly.
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On August 19 2013 12:01 Dodgin wrote:
The players must love fucking with people who so easily believe every twitter message and leaving of in-game teams.
That's why you wait until there are actual press releases. ;/
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On August 19 2013 11:46 SnowfaLL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2013 11:17 crms wrote:
I'm not sold on TC and I feel I'm the only one. Maybe it's just bias because we're on TL site, I'm not sure. I like TC, I'm a rabid TL fanboy but post-ti3 there were a lot of things I saw in the team that I wish I didn't. ;(
TC is a good player, he's safe, he's solid and he overall plays well. That's it though. He basically plays like a Chinese carry just.. worse. However, it's better than most west carries because he doesn't do outright THROW-y stuff. Although his indecision and passiveness has also cost TL. I feel he's a poor man's china carry with little to confidence on LAN. He had 2 great games at TI where he really stood out but other than that I felt liquid (as a whole) was very unsure of themselves and unconfident in many spots.
Liquid needs real leadership, no democracy in-game as it leads to too much indecision and wishy-washy play. TL needs more balls in games. They literally lost 3-4 games in group stages because they had little to no direction and made bad decisions. They have very talented players but some of their drafting and general decision making leaves a lot to be desired.
I agree but thats not what TC is always like; remember back to feb/march when they were dominating everyone, TC was a beast. So I dont think its necessarily him not being capable, its just the situation they were in lately, issues with leadership and control. Honestly I think they should go back to being run by FLUFF, hes a leader and creative too, if he would just be less harsh on himself. They had 2 months of pure dominance with new strats that changed the meta, but as soon as they started forcing things with TC as drafter, it seemed to all fall apart. I love Korok but clearly he had an issue with the direction/leadership and you need everyone being on the same page. I just hope its FLUFF wanting TC to try drafting out because he felt pressure, rather than TC wanting more control. If the prior is the case, maybe management can just tell FLUFF to try it 100% himself again.
Fluff does make the ingame calls..He has said so numerous times..But there's only so much you can do when your drafter drafts a 1 position OD and the opponent has triple BKB.
If Liquid get a good drafter or TC somehow manages to become better at drafting , Liquid becomes a top 3 western team easy
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United States47024 Posts
Bad drafting is in many cases a team issue and not an individual issue.
A drafter can only use what the team's practiced or what his players give him to work with.
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On August 19 2013 12:39 TheYango wrote:
Bad drafting is in many cases a team issue and not an individual issue.
A drafter can only use what the team's practiced or what his players give him to work with.
Is Puppey considered a genius drafter because he's 90% inconsiderate to what his teammates can play?
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On August 19 2013 12:19 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2013 12:11 Kuroeeah wrote:On August 19 2013 11:17 crms wrote:
I'm not sold on TC and I feel I'm the only one. Maybe it's just bias because we're on TL site, I'm not sure. I like TC, I'm a rabid TL fanboy but post-ti3 there were a lot of things I saw in the team that I wish I didn't. ;(
TC is a good player, he's safe, he's solid and he overall plays well. That's it though. He basically plays like a Chinese carry just.. worse. However, it's better than most west carries because he doesn't do outright THROW-y stuff. Although his indecision and passiveness has also cost TL. I feel he's a poor man's china carry with little to confidence on LAN. He had 2 great games at TI where he really stood out but other than that I felt liquid (as a whole) was very unsure of themselves and unconfident in many spots.
Liquid needs real leadership, no democracy in-game as it leads to too much indecision and wishy-washy play. TL needs more balls in games. They literally lost 3-4 games in group stages because they had little to no direction and made bad decisions. They have very talented players but some of their drafting and general decision making leaves a lot to be desired.
TC on weaver man. Is he the one with the worst Time Lapses imaginable? Or was that Korok?
Korok plays a mean ass weaver, Why they let TC play weaver instead of korok at TI3 just boggles my mind.
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On August 19 2013 11:16 thebig1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2013 10:53 misirlou wrote:On August 19 2013 08:32 thebig1 wrote:On August 19 2013 07:54 treeqt wrote:On August 19 2013 07:42 SnowfaLL wrote:On August 19 2013 07:04 ch33psh33p wrote:On August 19 2013 07:01 thebig1 wrote:On August 19 2013 04:13 wherebugsgo wrote:And yeah, it probably does reflect on how sadly empty the NA dota scene is, but I'm not convinced with Liquid's supports I'll admit, I don't actually know anything about upcoming possible NA pubstars who aren't considered "part of the scene", and maybe there aren't any, but I get the feeling that in order to be considered as such, you need to get in with the nadota crowd. If that's true, and you consider that every time I visit a thread on those forums it looks like a total cesspool, then it might just be the NA scene doing it to itself. But hey, I'm just a no skill scrub that needs to shut his fucking nerd mouth because he has no idea what he's talking about, right? It IS the nadota scene doing it to itself. There was this whole rally to get your shit together post a few years back, but all it ended up showing was how little NADota cared. About anything. [...] and like I said, you can get noticed maybe from ixdl but then you have to fit in with that raging-flaming crowd. Dota 2 ranking system is the reason theres only 1-2 good supports in NA. You don't have to fit in with anyone you just have to endure everyone. And a rating system for pubs won't give you a single good support player. Playing proper support outside of organised play is just not possible. The problem with enduring a situation like that is that it's soul draining. Sure it's possible to do for a while, but eventually a time comes when the fun you get out of the game is no longer enough to keep you going, and it game becomes a chore. If it's no longer enjoyable, you want out, and quit. That's something that happens all the time, and is not confined to dota at all. It is TECHNICALLY possible to become noticed in pub play (or it was in CS at least), but yes it is incredibly unlikely, doesn't really work and requires way too much luck to be relied upon. Honestly, the best method is probably to fall back to the old tiered league systems. Yes, it's a shitfest at the lower levels, and a nightmare to organize, but it gives some structure to things. The 'better' amateur teams poach players from the worse ones, and given enough time the cream tends to rise to the top. Player oriented matchmaking ladders or pickup leagues may be a lot of fun, but it's NOT a good way to develop talent. You need people playing together as a team, and trying to develop their roles, even if the average team only lasts a few months before reforming. Pickup leagues lead to screwing around. Pros don't take it seriously, and players who get into games with them tend to go into super tryhard mode because 'It might be there big chance!'. Edit: Think ADL, but way way way way way more teams. Actually... what I'm describing is what the Koreans are doing isn't it? Having played both CS and LoL here is my personal experience and opinion: on CS players would sometimes get noticed on pubs and form a 5 player team (very rarely or never were they found and join a S or A tier team). These 5 guys would proceed to IRC looking for mixes and pcw, eventually get into some good matches and get noticed there. If not, CS was huge at lan cafes and on our local lan we had a monthly tournament which would get some local teams and 1 or 2 S teams and players did get noticed a lot there. LoL ladder help form a lot of the pro teams today, mostly people would go solo queue, get a good partner in a game, start duoing, then get 3 more players going and form a team. This is pretty much how TSM and CLG started. Having just started playing DotA I have 0 idea how rising teams are formed or how pros matchup but from my personal learning experience, being constantly matched with guys that are way over my level over the course of my first 50 games is not a fun experience Obviously it's been a few years, I didn't play that much beta, and it was my friends and not myself who played with those guys the most, but I'm pretty sure TSM was just a group of guys who knew each other from DotA. They joined together to form a community site to try to be the community center of LoL. CLG was born when some of the group of guys who played with them had a falling out and went to make their own competing community site, and try to draw their own stream viewers. This was also either during the beta, or right after the game came out, when the community was tiny in comparison to the way it is now. I might be a little off on that time frame though, as I had already basically quit LoL at that point, and only really made appearances when friends were trying to play in houses on streams to get e-famous. Either way, I don't think it's fair to say that they formed from pubbing. At the very least the ladder system DEFINITELY wasn't in the game at the time and was added MUCH MUCH later.
I don't know about the rest of your story but I played DotA with Odd for years and no one else on TSM was in our group of friends. They met through regular "unranked" matchmaking which worked pretty much like Dota 2's (there was MMR but it was hidden) and forums.
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On August 19 2013 12:42 Kuroeeah wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2013 12:39 TheYango wrote:
Bad drafting is in many cases a team issue and not an individual issue.
A drafter can only use what the team's practiced or what his players give him to work with. Is Puppey considered a genius drafter because he's 90% inconsiderate to what his teammates can play?
It's hard to say if his team can play all heroes because he drafts like that or if Puppey drafts like that because his team can play every hero.
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iceiceice on his stream said he is open to joining any top tier western/chinese team but doesn't think any top chinese team will offer him a spot because they view him as an inconsistent player
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On August 19 2013 13:16 hyptonic wrote:
iceiceice on his stream said he is open to joining any top tier western/chinese team but doesn't think any top chinese team will offer him a spot because they view him as an inconsistent player
but the dude wields the divine rapier!
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On August 19 2013 13:02 TomatoBisque wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2013 11:16 thebig1 wrote:On August 19 2013 10:53 misirlou wrote:On August 19 2013 08:32 thebig1 wrote:On August 19 2013 07:54 treeqt wrote:On August 19 2013 07:42 SnowfaLL wrote:On August 19 2013 07:04 ch33psh33p wrote:On August 19 2013 07:01 thebig1 wrote:On August 19 2013 04:13 wherebugsgo wrote:And yeah, it probably does reflect on how sadly empty the NA dota scene is, but I'm not convinced with Liquid's supports I'll admit, I don't actually know anything about upcoming possible NA pubstars who aren't considered "part of the scene", and maybe there aren't any, but I get the feeling that in order to be considered as such, you need to get in with the nadota crowd. If that's true, and you consider that every time I visit a thread on those forums it looks like a total cesspool, then it might just be the NA scene doing it to itself. But hey, I'm just a no skill scrub that needs to shut his fucking nerd mouth because he has no idea what he's talking about, right? It IS the nadota scene doing it to itself. There was this whole rally to get your shit together post a few years back, but all it ended up showing was how little NADota cared. About anything. [...] and like I said, you can get noticed maybe from ixdl but then you have to fit in with that raging-flaming crowd. Dota 2 ranking system is the reason theres only 1-2 good supports in NA. You don't have to fit in with anyone you just have to endure everyone. And a rating system for pubs won't give you a single good support player. Playing proper support outside of organised play is just not possible. The problem with enduring a situation like that is that it's soul draining. Sure it's possible to do for a while, but eventually a time comes when the fun you get out of the game is no longer enough to keep you going, and it game becomes a chore. If it's no longer enjoyable, you want out, and quit. That's something that happens all the time, and is not confined to dota at all. It is TECHNICALLY possible to become noticed in pub play (or it was in CS at least), but yes it is incredibly unlikely, doesn't really work and requires way too much luck to be relied upon. Honestly, the best method is probably to fall back to the old tiered league systems. Yes, it's a shitfest at the lower levels, and a nightmare to organize, but it gives some structure to things. The 'better' amateur teams poach players from the worse ones, and given enough time the cream tends to rise to the top. Player oriented matchmaking ladders or pickup leagues may be a lot of fun, but it's NOT a good way to develop talent. You need people playing together as a team, and trying to develop their roles, even if the average team only lasts a few months before reforming. Pickup leagues lead to screwing around. Pros don't take it seriously, and players who get into games with them tend to go into super tryhard mode because 'It might be there big chance!'. Edit: Think ADL, but way way way way way more teams. Actually... what I'm describing is what the Koreans are doing isn't it? Having played both CS and LoL here is my personal experience and opinion: on CS players would sometimes get noticed on pubs and form a 5 player team (very rarely or never were they found and join a S or A tier team). These 5 guys would proceed to IRC looking for mixes and pcw, eventually get into some good matches and get noticed there. If not, CS was huge at lan cafes and on our local lan we had a monthly tournament which would get some local teams and 1 or 2 S teams and players did get noticed a lot there. LoL ladder help form a lot of the pro teams today, mostly people would go solo queue, get a good partner in a game, start duoing, then get 3 more players going and form a team. This is pretty much how TSM and CLG started. Having just started playing DotA I have 0 idea how rising teams are formed or how pros matchup but from my personal learning experience, being constantly matched with guys that are way over my level over the course of my first 50 games is not a fun experience Obviously it's been a few years, I didn't play that much beta, and it was my friends and not myself who played with those guys the most, but I'm pretty sure TSM was just a group of guys who knew each other from DotA. They joined together to form a community site to try to be the community center of LoL. CLG was born when some of the group of guys who played with them had a falling out and went to make their own competing community site, and try to draw their own stream viewers. This was also either during the beta, or right after the game came out, when the community was tiny in comparison to the way it is now. I might be a little off on that time frame though, as I had already basically quit LoL at that point, and only really made appearances when friends were trying to play in houses on streams to get e-famous. Either way, I don't think it's fair to say that they formed from pubbing. At the very least the ladder system DEFINITELY wasn't in the game at the time and was added MUCH MUCH later. I don't know about the rest of your story but I played DotA with Odd for years and no one else on TSM was in our group of friends. They met through regular "unranked" matchmaking which worked pretty much like Dota 2's (there was MMR but it was hidden) and forums.
Right, there are definitely players that got into those teams through the regular matchmaking, for sure. However, I also believe we are talking about different time periods. Again, my memory is hazy and it's possible I'm misjudging time periods, but I don't believe Odd really came around until later, and wasn't in the original group that I was speaking of. Not that he didn't exist, he was always kind of there, but I think he was considering a pub star at the time, and wasn't in the cool kids club yet. I wish I could remember more clearly, and remember more names of the people who are now gone. I wasn't trying to say getting on a team through ladder play was impossible, just that the addition of a rank ladder doesn't really make a difference in it happening or not. Trying to provide some prospective on how exactly the teams came to be, since they seem to be older than most people realize, and started well before LoL had anything really resembling a competitive scene. They WERE the competitive scene.
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On August 19 2013 13:10 Mataza wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2013 12:42 Kuroeeah wrote:On August 19 2013 12:39 TheYango wrote:
Bad drafting is in many cases a team issue and not an individual issue.
A drafter can only use what the team's practiced or what his players give him to work with. Is Puppey considered a genius drafter because he's 90% inconsiderate to what his teammates can play? It's hard to say if his team can play all heroes because he drafts like that or if Puppey drafts like that because his team can play every hero.
When Na'Vi excels is when they stick to what works. Dendi played an "eh" Lone Druid, DK mid and Mag. Kuroky and Funnik's for the most part stick to their comfort zone as well.
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The LoL wiki says Odd was on the original team, although I dunno if he was in early 2010.
I think it's more likely that since the early beta community was so small, the top players all played with each other a lot.
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On August 19 2013 13:35 thebig1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2013 13:02 TomatoBisque wrote:On August 19 2013 11:16 thebig1 wrote:On August 19 2013 10:53 misirlou wrote:On August 19 2013 08:32 thebig1 wrote:On August 19 2013 07:54 treeqt wrote:On August 19 2013 07:42 SnowfaLL wrote:On August 19 2013 07:04 ch33psh33p wrote:On August 19 2013 07:01 thebig1 wrote:On August 19 2013 04:13 wherebugsgo wrote:And yeah, it probably does reflect on how sadly empty the NA dota scene is, but I'm not convinced with Liquid's supports I'll admit, I don't actually know anything about upcoming possible NA pubstars who aren't considered "part of the scene", and maybe there aren't any, but I get the feeling that in order to be considered as such, you need to get in with the nadota crowd. If that's true, and you consider that every time I visit a thread on those forums it looks like a total cesspool, then it might just be the NA scene doing it to itself. But hey, I'm just a no skill scrub that needs to shut his fucking nerd mouth because he has no idea what he's talking about, right? It IS the nadota scene doing it to itself. There was this whole rally to get your shit together post a few years back, but all it ended up showing was how little NADota cared. About anything. [...] and like I said, you can get noticed maybe from ixdl but then you have to fit in with that raging-flaming crowd. Dota 2 ranking system is the reason theres only 1-2 good supports in NA. You don't have to fit in with anyone you just have to endure everyone. And a rating system for pubs won't give you a single good support player. Playing proper support outside of organised play is just not possible. The problem with enduring a situation like that is that it's soul draining. Sure it's possible to do for a while, but eventually a time comes when the fun you get out of the game is no longer enough to keep you going, and it game becomes a chore. If it's no longer enjoyable, you want out, and quit. That's something that happens all the time, and is not confined to dota at all. It is TECHNICALLY possible to become noticed in pub play (or it was in CS at least), but yes it is incredibly unlikely, doesn't really work and requires way too much luck to be relied upon. Honestly, the best method is probably to fall back to the old tiered league systems. Yes, it's a shitfest at the lower levels, and a nightmare to organize, but it gives some structure to things. The 'better' amateur teams poach players from the worse ones, and given enough time the cream tends to rise to the top. Player oriented matchmaking ladders or pickup leagues may be a lot of fun, but it's NOT a good way to develop talent. You need people playing together as a team, and trying to develop their roles, even if the average team only lasts a few months before reforming. Pickup leagues lead to screwing around. Pros don't take it seriously, and players who get into games with them tend to go into super tryhard mode because 'It might be there big chance!'. Edit: Think ADL, but way way way way way more teams. Actually... what I'm describing is what the Koreans are doing isn't it? Having played both CS and LoL here is my personal experience and opinion: on CS players would sometimes get noticed on pubs and form a 5 player team (very rarely or never were they found and join a S or A tier team). These 5 guys would proceed to IRC looking for mixes and pcw, eventually get into some good matches and get noticed there. If not, CS was huge at lan cafes and on our local lan we had a monthly tournament which would get some local teams and 1 or 2 S teams and players did get noticed a lot there. LoL ladder help form a lot of the pro teams today, mostly people would go solo queue, get a good partner in a game, start duoing, then get 3 more players going and form a team. This is pretty much how TSM and CLG started. Having just started playing DotA I have 0 idea how rising teams are formed or how pros matchup but from my personal learning experience, being constantly matched with guys that are way over my level over the course of my first 50 games is not a fun experience Obviously it's been a few years, I didn't play that much beta, and it was my friends and not myself who played with those guys the most, but I'm pretty sure TSM was just a group of guys who knew each other from DotA. They joined together to form a community site to try to be the community center of LoL. CLG was born when some of the group of guys who played with them had a falling out and went to make their own competing community site, and try to draw their own stream viewers. This was also either during the beta, or right after the game came out, when the community was tiny in comparison to the way it is now. I might be a little off on that time frame though, as I had already basically quit LoL at that point, and only really made appearances when friends were trying to play in houses on streams to get e-famous. Either way, I don't think it's fair to say that they formed from pubbing. At the very least the ladder system DEFINITELY wasn't in the game at the time and was added MUCH MUCH later. I don't know about the rest of your story but I played DotA with Odd for years and no one else on TSM was in our group of friends. They met through regular "unranked" matchmaking which worked pretty much like Dota 2's (there was MMR but it was hidden) and forums. Right, there are definitely players that got into those teams through the regular matchmaking, for sure. However, I also believe we are talking about different time periods. Again, my memory is hazy and it's possible I'm misjudging time periods, but I don't believe Odd really came around until later, and wasn't in the original group that I was speaking of. Not that he didn't exist, he was always kind of there, but I think he was considering a pub star at the time, and wasn't in the cool kids club yet. I wish I could remember more clearly, and remember more names of the people who are now gone. I wasn't trying to say getting on a team through ladder play was impossible, just that the addition of a rank ladder doesn't really make a difference in it happening or not. Trying to provide some prospective on how exactly the teams came to be, since they seem to be older than most people realize, and started well before LoL had anything really resembling a competitive scene. They WERE the competitive scene.
off the top of my head, regianld, elementz, takashix, burbs, messiah, unversable, megazero, treeskimo
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On August 19 2013 13:37 TomatoBisque wrote:
The LoL wiki says Odd was on the original team, although I dunno if he was in early 2010.
I think it's more likely that since the early beta community was so small, the top players all played with each other a lot.
Some wiki that I just looked at says: "He started his League of Legends career with Haters Make Us Famous before moving on to Team SoloMid as their designated jungler."
And when you consider that TSM started in 2009, I dunno if it's true that he was on the original team. Maybe it is though. It's possible that he wasn't on "the team" when there wasn't really a team, and it was more of a community project. And is an "original member" when things really started to get going. However, as you say, the community was so small back then that everyone played with each other for the most part. Whether they liked it or not. This is not the case now in LoL, or DotA 2. Making it much harder to get into the scene in that way.
As for that list of players. Yep. Grimm also comes to mind after reading that.
Anyways, I digress, and this seems to be getting a bit too off topic...
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On August 19 2013 13:10 Mataza wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2013 12:42 Kuroeeah wrote:On August 19 2013 12:39 TheYango wrote:
Bad drafting is in many cases a team issue and not an individual issue.
A drafter can only use what the team's practiced or what his players give him to work with. Is Puppey considered a genius drafter because he's 90% inconsiderate to what his teammates can play? It's hard to say if his team can play all heroes because he drafts like that or if Puppey drafts like that because his team can play every hero.
Well if you take game one of the grand finals as evidence it is pretty easy to say they aren't. Last year's Navi roster you could make a case for, but their new additions and versatile should not be used in the same sentence.
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On August 19 2013 12:42 Kuroeeah wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2013 12:39 TheYango wrote:
Bad drafting is in many cases a team issue and not an individual issue.
A drafter can only use what the team's practiced or what his players give him to work with. Is Puppey considered a genius drafter because he's 90% inconsiderate to what his teammates can play?
Puppey drafts to counter the other team's line-up, thinking several steps ahead most of the time. Alliance drafts things they are comfortable with and beats you with it because they are so familiar with the heroes.
That's the difference between the two teams.
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Who are the genius drafters?
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"Genius" drafter is kind of a misnomer. The core of drafting is about stopping your opponents from getting what they want, getting what you want, and making sure your 5 are better than their 5.
That usually comes down to knowledge of heroes and matchups, knowledge of your own team's strengths and weaknesses, and knowledge of your opponent's style and tendencies, plus being able to compile all of that knowledge within the draft clock. Which is usually more about time, research, and preparation than talent.
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On August 19 2013 14:25 Xynch wrote:
Who are the genius drafters?
The ones that win games
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EPT
