|
United Kingdom50293 Posts
On August 30 2013 21:57 Klonere wrote:Thats disappointing, VG were a strong new organization that with some more time could have challenged the more established teams. Instead they have had their squad cannibalized by the big teams (mainly cty)
http://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/1le3wc/vici_gaming_cty_xtt_zsmj_out/cbybex3
Well according to the translation of a Chinese comment on reddit cty drove out xtt and flames his own team so maybe they simply had enough and wanted to get rid of him. Shame as he is a skillful player no doubt but if he really does have that kind of attitude problem then maybe it's for the best.
|
On August 30 2013 22:04 Fusilero wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 21:57 Klonere wrote:Thats disappointing, VG were a strong new organization that with some more time could have challenged the more established teams. Instead they have had their squad cannibalized by the big teams (mainly cty) http://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/1le3wc/vici_gaming_cty_xtt_zsmj_out/cbybex3Well according to the translation of a Chinese comment on reddit cty drove out xtt and flames his own team so maybe they simply had enough and wanted to get rid of him. Shame as he is a skillful player no doubt but if he really does have that kind of attitude problem then maybe it's for the best.
he truly is the rtz of the east then hueh
|
Sorry if this has been answered before.
Does anyone know what will happen to the rest of LGD.int, seeing as God joined VP?
|
On August 30 2013 22:26 TOCHMY wrote:
Sorry if this has been answered before.
Does anyone know what will happen to the rest of LGD.int, seeing as God joined VP?
Brax will probably join an NA team
Not sure about 1437
Haven't heard anything about PJ
Misery is staying in Europe I am pretty sure
|
On August 30 2013 22:11 Klonere wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 22:04 Fusilero wrote:On August 30 2013 21:57 Klonere wrote:Thats disappointing, VG were a strong new organization that with some more time could have challenged the more established teams. Instead they have had their squad cannibalized by the big teams (mainly cty) http://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/1le3wc/vici_gaming_cty_xtt_zsmj_out/cbybex3Well according to the translation of a Chinese comment on reddit cty drove out xtt and flames his own team so maybe they simply had enough and wanted to get rid of him. Shame as he is a skillful player no doubt but if he really does have that kind of attitude problem then maybe it's for the best. he truly is the rtz of the east then hueh
Rofl that's what I thought about Cty when I read it as well.
LD can you tell what happened to iG internally? I've seen so many pictures of iG at TI3 and Chuan wasn't there with them but he appeared in many pics with other teams instead.
|
On August 30 2013 22:33 Lodasrecedinhairline wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 22:11 Klonere wrote:On August 30 2013 22:04 Fusilero wrote:On August 30 2013 21:57 Klonere wrote:Thats disappointing, VG were a strong new organization that with some more time could have challenged the more established teams. Instead they have had their squad cannibalized by the big teams (mainly cty) http://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/1le3wc/vici_gaming_cty_xtt_zsmj_out/cbybex3Well according to the translation of a Chinese comment on reddit cty drove out xtt and flames his own team so maybe they simply had enough and wanted to get rid of him. Shame as he is a skillful player no doubt but if he really does have that kind of attitude problem then maybe it's for the best. he truly is the rtz of the east then hueh Rofl that's what I thought about Cty when I read it as well. LD can you tell what happened to iG internally? I've seen so many pictures of iG at TI3 and Chuan wasn't there with them but he appeared in many pics with other teams instead.
I think at this point it's a pretty open secret that Chuan does not get along well with the team (Zhou in particular) and that they apparently don't listen to him much. There also have been rumours that he wants to return to Malaysia, although that's pretty unlikely as even a team like Orange would be incapable of affording his salary.
|
On August 30 2013 20:15 renfree wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 14:02 LDdota wrote:Grinding 3-5 official matches every single day is no better than playing 1 match every few days; you need some time to scrim and develop new strategies, and burnout can be just as destructive as lack of preparation. Do you really want to test new strat in a big league and each lost match could mean you not getting into the playoffs, when you have around 10 matches per 2 months? REALLY? You seems to not getting it LD, thats why EU went so ahead strategy-wise - they had tons of small events to test shit. Scrims mean nothing, nothing at all, you don't risk anything, you don't put effort into this, i'm surprised how you're not getting it. EU teams simply used small online events as scrims.
I find it weird your calling out LD. Chinese teams failure at TI3 was not all ACE's fault, that the players and mentality had played a role. Something you keep over looking.
In TI2, Chinese teams won because they were better, and made less mistakes. In TI3, this was no longer the case. They kept on playing this "Lets see if they can beat us" tactic, and had no variation in their B/P.
You also say they aren't willing to try anything risky because it isn't worth it. Again Western teams showed, especially Alliance and Na'Vi, that when it came down to it, they aren't afraid to try something. Something no Chinese teams did aside from TongFu. iG before their fall, was so good because they were hyper aggressive, like NaVi. No Chinese teams then did anything to copy that play style. The 1 game LGD had to win to try to get into the upper racket in TI3, Game 1 vs NaVi. They pulled out a very aggressive strat that caught NaVi off guard, and gone on to win the game.
What happened after? That was never seen by them again, even when there lives were on the line, they didn't do it.
This is not solely about ACE, yes they have some faults, but the mentality and the play style of the Chinese teams are at fault here. You should have read the articles by TL. This should have been know to you, instead of saying Chinese teams didn't have enough time or little games to try something.
And btw, G-1 League First game Alliance vs DK. Did anyone say, "Oh well Alliance is doing this strat again." No, because Alliance practiced it privately, something any team can do. So to say Chinese teams don't have time or don't have enough games to attempt something like that is absurd.
|
On August 30 2013 11:49 Kipsate wrote:
Good read, I like the plans that he has laid out but we will see how much of it can come to frution.
He seems full of good intentions, he wants to "standardize" everything, but this is a very Chinese (communist ?) way of doing things. The west scene is chaotic, players are poached without regulation, yet the strongest survive and the scene can produce a ton of teams and tournaments. And from this tons of teams a few world class teams.
I'm sure the guy is honest and isn't a "lol sellout", and I'm not sure how exactly pinpoint what is disturbing me in his speech. It's like he wants to regulate everything when sometime you just need to let things advance naturally. On the other hand it's a scene that deliver ACE and DSL and this year there will be two of each so everything isn't bad.
I mean, he wants the players to have a higher salary but prevent clubs from competing and bidding on a player. And he actually prevent players from changing clubs once they have a contract, so obviously salaries will never rise in such an environment. The effect of his decisions are the reverse of what he wants to achieve.
|
On August 30 2013 22:01 renfree wrote:
LD, if you are defending Chinese system of 1 big league at a time so much, i'll give you an example. Lets say we have this 1 league running, 1 month for groups and 1 month for playoffs. Now lets say a team due to a various reasons (including testing crazy strats) goes out after groupstage, what do they have? Not a single game for a whole month and then some time for the next league to start. Not one. Zero. Nada. And they can't join some GEST or AMD while waiting, cause ACE restricted them.
As long as leagues don't directly clash, ACE allowed teams to participate in other leagues leading up to TI3. For example, Alienware Cup overlapped a LOT with DSL (I remember literally casting AW Cup group stages one night, going to bed, waking up and preparing to cast DSL semifinals the next night; same thing happened again for the finals as well), yet the big 4 were allowed to participate in both tournaments. Sure, AW Cup had to schedule around DSL, but the teams were still allowed to compete. I don't think it's as black and white as you make it out to be...
The tier 1 teams from CHina didn't compete in GEST / AMD because the prizepools were too small, this is what King means by devaluing the brands. Why would I, as a sponsor, want to run a tournament for 1 million RMB if I know I can get the same teams to play for 30,000 RMB? ACE has to balance between conflicting goals, on the one hand they want to make these teams and players brands valuable and desirable enough that they will attract the kind of sponsor money that makes Dota a sustainable long term career path, and on the other hand they need to give the teams enough opportunities to compete and train so that they maintain their elite status. Obviously they haven't found the perfect balance, and I would like to see them continue to allow teams to enter other tournaments as long as the prizepools are decent (e.g. AW Cup), but I think you're not seeing the other side of the equation. It sounds to me like you're simply blinded by the desire to see these teams play in every possible tournament just to give them as many training opportunities as possible.
It's honestly no different with casters or any other commodity; why do you think Tastosis, Bitterdam, GD studio, jD, BTS, etc don't take every gig / cast every single event that comes their way? Everybody in a competitive industry gets opportunities that they turn down, and it's not always because they don't want to cast / participate in that particular event. Sometimes we simply can't cover them, but we're all definitely conscious that we have a casting brand with value and part of maintaining / increasing that value is being selective and wise about which gigs you accept and which you turn down. You're looking at things purely from the competitive point of view, but there's a business side to all of this which is equally important to the long term viability of competitive esports / Dota as a career path.
|
On August 30 2013 22:11 Klonere wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 22:04 Fusilero wrote:On August 30 2013 21:57 Klonere wrote:Thats disappointing, VG were a strong new organization that with some more time could have challenged the more established teams. Instead they have had their squad cannibalized by the big teams (mainly cty) http://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/1le3wc/vici_gaming_cty_xtt_zsmj_out/cbybex3Well according to the translation of a Chinese comment on reddit cty drove out xtt and flames his own team so maybe they simply had enough and wanted to get rid of him. Shame as he is a skillful player no doubt but if he really does have that kind of attitude problem then maybe it's for the best. he truly is the rtz of the east then hueh
naw he's a chinese mushi
|
On August 31 2013 00:26 LDdota wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 22:01 renfree wrote:
LD, if you are defending Chinese system of 1 big league at a time so much, i'll give you an example. Lets say we have this 1 league running, 1 month for groups and 1 month for playoffs. Now lets say a team due to a various reasons (including testing crazy strats) goes out after groupstage, what do they have? Not a single game for a whole month and then some time for the next league to start. Not one. Zero. Nada. And they can't join some GEST or AMD while waiting, cause ACE restricted them. As long as leagues don't directly clash, ACE allowed teams to participate in other leagues leading up to TI3. For example, Alienware Cup overlapped a LOT with DSL (I remember literally casting AW Cup group stages one night, going to bed, waking up and preparing to cast DSL semifinals the next night; same thing happened again for the finals as well), yet the big 4 were allowed to participate in both tournaments. Sure, AW Cup had to schedule around DSL, but the teams were still allowed to compete. I don't think it's as black and white as you make it out to be...
ACE allowed big 3 to participate in AWC and ECL to give these teams an opportunity to practice before TI3, which King has specifically stated. I'm not convinced by his statement, that this will remain the same in the future, TI4 is a year away.
|
|
|
I just think it hasn't been updated in forever.
|
On August 31 2013 01:32 EnumaAvalon wrote:I just think it hasn't been updated in forever.
Yep, same.
|
United Kingdom24425 Posts
On August 31 2013 01:23 renfree wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2013 00:26 LDdota wrote:On August 30 2013 22:01 renfree wrote:
LD, if you are defending Chinese system of 1 big league at a time so much, i'll give you an example. Lets say we have this 1 league running, 1 month for groups and 1 month for playoffs. Now lets say a team due to a various reasons (including testing crazy strats) goes out after groupstage, what do they have? Not a single game for a whole month and then some time for the next league to start. Not one. Zero. Nada. And they can't join some GEST or AMD while waiting, cause ACE restricted them. As long as leagues don't directly clash, ACE allowed teams to participate in other leagues leading up to TI3. For example, Alienware Cup overlapped a LOT with DSL (I remember literally casting AW Cup group stages one night, going to bed, waking up and preparing to cast DSL semifinals the next night; same thing happened again for the finals as well), yet the big 4 were allowed to participate in both tournaments. Sure, AW Cup had to schedule around DSL, but the teams were still allowed to compete. I don't think it's as black and white as you make it out to be... ACE allowed big 3 to participate in AWC and ECL to give these teams an opportunity to practice before TI3, which King has specifically stated. I'm not convinced by his statement, that this will remain the same in the future, TI4 is a year away. You're drawing some wrong conclusions here.
They changed their policies before TI3. They didn't 'let teams compete in those specifically to prepare for TI3 and will after that point go back to the same things."
|
Sanya12364 Posts
On August 31 2013 01:43 teapoted wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2013 01:23 renfree wrote:
ACE allowed big 3 to participate in AWC and ECL to give these teams an opportunity to practice before TI3, which King has specifically stated. I'm not convinced by his statement, that this will remain the same in the future, TI4 is a year away. You're drawing some wrong conclusions here. They changed their policies before TI3. They didn't 'let teams compete in those specifically to prepare for TI3 and will after that point go back to the same things."
This is correct interpretation of events.
ACE doesn't need to force brand development strategy on the big teams. They will be doing it themselves as it is in their own interest - either because prize money is too small or because the tournaments demand an exclusivity contract out of the teams. For premier tournaments, ACE may be able to influence what terms go in the exclusivity contract, but ACE will not be able to prevent an exclusivity contract from happening.
The specific instance of ACE intervention was GEST and AMD and this was to give 2nd tier teams a chance at survival, and it is precisely because of a lack of an amateur scene that supported those teams before. Dota2 was just not out and available for players. The later reversal was to get everyone some more practice. As long as there is an amateur scene, there is no need for ACE intervention.
|
On August 31 2013 01:23 renfree wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2013 00:26 LDdota wrote:On August 30 2013 22:01 renfree wrote:
LD, if you are defending Chinese system of 1 big league at a time so much, i'll give you an example. Lets say we have this 1 league running, 1 month for groups and 1 month for playoffs. Now lets say a team due to a various reasons (including testing crazy strats) goes out after groupstage, what do they have? Not a single game for a whole month and then some time for the next league to start. Not one. Zero. Nada. And they can't join some GEST or AMD while waiting, cause ACE restricted them. As long as leagues don't directly clash, ACE allowed teams to participate in other leagues leading up to TI3. For example, Alienware Cup overlapped a LOT with DSL (I remember literally casting AW Cup group stages one night, going to bed, waking up and preparing to cast DSL semifinals the next night; same thing happened again for the finals as well), yet the big 4 were allowed to participate in both tournaments. Sure, AW Cup had to schedule around DSL, but the teams were still allowed to compete. I don't think it's as black and white as you make it out to be... ACE allowed big 3 to participate in AWC and ECL to give these teams an opportunity to practice before TI3, which King has specifically stated. I'm not convinced by his statement, that this will remain the same in the future, TI4 is a year away.
You're right it won't be the same. They are going to double the number of big tournaments. It will still be pathetic compared to 2012 but it will be closer to the 20+ tournaments they played back then the handful they played before TI3.
|
On August 31 2013 02:19 mutantmagnet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2013 01:23 renfree wrote:On August 31 2013 00:26 LDdota wrote:On August 30 2013 22:01 renfree wrote:
LD, if you are defending Chinese system of 1 big league at a time so much, i'll give you an example. Lets say we have this 1 league running, 1 month for groups and 1 month for playoffs. Now lets say a team due to a various reasons (including testing crazy strats) goes out after groupstage, what do they have? Not a single game for a whole month and then some time for the next league to start. Not one. Zero. Nada. And they can't join some GEST or AMD while waiting, cause ACE restricted them. As long as leagues don't directly clash, ACE allowed teams to participate in other leagues leading up to TI3. For example, Alienware Cup overlapped a LOT with DSL (I remember literally casting AW Cup group stages one night, going to bed, waking up and preparing to cast DSL semifinals the next night; same thing happened again for the finals as well), yet the big 4 were allowed to participate in both tournaments. Sure, AW Cup had to schedule around DSL, but the teams were still allowed to compete. I don't think it's as black and white as you make it out to be... ACE allowed big 3 to participate in AWC and ECL to give these teams an opportunity to practice before TI3, which King has specifically stated. I'm not convinced by his statement, that this will remain the same in the future, TI4 is a year away. You're right it won't be the same. They are going to double the number of big tournaments. It will still be pathetic compared to 2012 but it will be closer to the 20+ tournaments they played back then the handful they played before TI3.
Ah, you still not getting my point. They are totally fine in the department of big leagues to have it covered for a whole year. What i'm talking about - is the small cups like BTS WT, GDM, IGMM, JD Masters Asia etc, do you remember those? Cups that would allow teams to play for 2-3 days without committing too much in terms of scheduling. Why there was a bunch of them in 2012 and only one - in 2013? I believe here's that ACE's tier system comes to play. Will there be any in 2014 for big teams? I'm not sure.
|
Rumour that Cty, fy and ZSMJ have left VG. Cty is also rumoured to be joining a new team while ZSMJ is re-retiring.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
