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On September 20 2013 11:11 Taguchi wrote:
Enter AH: It's right there, in your face. The time required for market research and finding a seller is no more. Everyone and their mother uses it, as opposed to traditional forum / tradechat where only a small part of the total population used it. The hardcore gamers gear up in no time at all. The casuals can feed off the hardcores who farm loot at vastly greater rates than them and are willing to sell it dirt cheap, since they got so much of it. The economy is driven into the ground in no time at all.
Only small percent used it because most people don't want to play "chase a buyer/seller" and do that market research shit, I would rather do it in real life if I'm going to commit time like that. They said it themselves that the game should be about killing shit and getting loots.
Keep both, make good loot easy to find (i.e. like Meph runs in D2) and super awesome loot still rare. People can still trade easily, and awesome items still retain value until bots or dupe.
Example: I want to buy enchanting mats. I could do onto the AH, pick one up quick. Or without it spam trade chat, or post on a forum, waste more time bartering, waste some time with seller that is late / doesn't show up.
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If u make a hardcore char and play through safely without using the AH you will be level 60 whilst fighting level 30-40 monsters.
You end up killing shit for basically no experience simply waiting to gear up so you can kill harder shit which you should already be able to kill because your 20 levels higher than it.
why is this? drop rates are so bad and so randomised you cant get the gear you need to move up to higher level monsters.
its retarded
you then goto the auction house, drop 10k and you progress in the game.
Why?
because other people have exactly the same kind of BS problem and are selling their shitty items so they can afford better items themselves.
The game is no longer about killing and looting, its aobut finding items other people want, selling them for nothing to buy one op item (compared to the rest of your gear) to progress.
My first HC char took me *ages* to get to lvl 60 without AH. My more recent hero i used the AH ... so much less fun got to 60 faster ... but by then the game isnt about gearing up its about speed running for legendary i intend to sell for 2 mill to then buy gear i need.
I may as well be buying and selling on ebay.
I am glad the AH is going because it will force them to fix the real problem .. the drop rates.
Am very curious to see what the sink for gold will be though ... i bet they readd it once they fix the actual game to make it as fun as it could be.
MP10 HC is fun though provided u dont use AH.
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The real problem here is this:
Current selffound is too hard. If they buff it so that you can progress in game without trading, existence or non-existence of AH will NOT have any direct effect on it. Your gameplay is exactly same when you cant trade as when you choose not to trade.
If AH would be kept in game, players would be thanks to loot 2.0 progressing naturally fast, but with additional extra buff from AH. Thats still not affecting players whop choose not to use AH. The problem is that AH users would be progressing so fast thay they would eventually start asking for increase of difficulty and new challenges.
At that point Blizzard would have choice to please AH haters and keep game as it is, or please AH users and increase diffulty - making selfound play once again insufficient.
This is vicious never-ending circle with no existing solution to please both groups.
Possible solutions are 3:
1) Making separate modes with and without AH. This however would be stupid as players would no doubt often regret their choice of mode without an ability to switch. It would most likely require separate balancing and would be overall too much work for Blizzard.
2) The easiest solution is to simply shut down AH. Some will like it, some will adjust and some will move to d2jsp. Cant say no harm done but it hardly requires any work from Blizz yet keeping most relatively pleased.
3) Introducing ladder season as in D2, while keeping AH and adding PvP. This is no doubt THE BEST solution. Shorter ladder seasons could be adjusted for selfound players, while PvP would kept AH users away from too much thinking about need for increased difficulty in PvE. Ladder resets would also prove to be best option for new comers, rather than coming into fully grown economy where new players pretty much can not do a shit. Current game is much less friendly to new comers than to selffound players. Ladder resets would keep everyone interested just as they did in D2, would prove to be good enough excuse for removing RMAH and with addition of season milestones just like SC2 has I cant imagine this would make anyone complain not even a little.
Devs have choosen middle-good/easiest solution. Option 3 would most definitelly be shitloads of work for them, but by a fucking far best for game.
Lazy bastards xD
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On September 21 2013 01:13 MoonfireSpam wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2013 11:11 Taguchi wrote:
Enter AH: It's right there, in your face. The time required for market research and finding a seller is no more. Everyone and their mother uses it, as opposed to traditional forum / tradechat where only a small part of the total population used it. The hardcore gamers gear up in no time at all. The casuals can feed off the hardcores who farm loot at vastly greater rates than them and are willing to sell it dirt cheap, since they got so much of it. The economy is driven into the ground in no time at all.
Only small percent used it because most people don't want to play "chase a buyer/seller" and do that market research shit, I would rather do it in real life if I'm going to commit time like that. They said it themselves that the game should be about killing shit and getting loots. Keep both, make good loot easy to find (i.e. like Meph runs in D2) and super awesome loot still rare. People can still trade easily, and awesome items still retain value until bots or dupe. Example: I want to buy enchanting mats. I could do onto the AH, pick one up quick. Or without it spam trade chat, or post on a forum, waste more time bartering, waste some time with seller that is late / doesn't show up.
The point is that trading is vastly more efficient than simply finding loot yourself and if everyone trades, droprates MUST be adjusted so the game isn't retardedly easy and therefore unfun. AH makes it so everyone will trade. Removing AH makes it so not everyone will trade. The droprate adjustment can be a lot less severe if, by design, a small part of the game's population will look to trade.
It's that simple.
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Should have never been there in the first place, but I thank it for paying my bills and getting me a new car while it was here.
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On September 21 2013 02:20 Sek-Kuar wrote:
Possible solutions are 3:
1) Making separate modes with and without AH. This however would be stupid as players would no doubt often regret their choice of mode without an ability to switch. It would most likely require separate balancing and would be overall too much work for Blizzard.
2) The easiest solution is to simply shut down AH. Some will like it, some will adjust and some will move to d2jsp. Cant say no harm done but it hardly requires any work from Blizz yet keeping most relatively pleased.
3) Introducing ladder season as in D2, while keeping AH and adding PvP. This is no doubt THE BEST solution. Shorter ladder seasons could be adjusted for selfound players, while PvP would kept AH users away from too much thinking about need for increased difficulty in PvE. Ladder resets would also prove to be best option for new comers, rather than coming into fully grown economy where new players pretty much can not do a shit. Current game is much less friendly to new comers than to selffound players. Ladder resets would keep everyone interested just as they did in D2, would prove to be good enough excuse for removing RMAH and with addition of season milestones just like SC2 has I cant imagine this would make anyone complain not even a little.
Option 3 is pretty much what is going to happen with the exception of keeping in the Auction House. Although they cannot have too short of a ladder system since it is suppose to work with the paragon system (as in, in ladder, whatever paragon experience you gain transfers over to ~ladder afterwards), Blizzard is adding a ladder system that has a fresh new economy while separating Sc and Hc.
Blizzard most likely does not want to take the chance with Auction House and Loot 2.0. The issue arises with the drop rate since with loot 2.0, less items will drop but are allegedly epicly better. So there is still a good chance people will end up using it the way it was used currently.
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On September 21 2013 06:42 Nilrem wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2013 02:20 Sek-Kuar wrote:
Possible solutions are 3:
1) Making separate modes with and without AH. This however would be stupid as players would no doubt often regret their choice of mode without an ability to switch. It would most likely require separate balancing and would be overall too much work for Blizzard.
2) The easiest solution is to simply shut down AH. Some will like it, some will adjust and some will move to d2jsp. Cant say no harm done but it hardly requires any work from Blizz yet keeping most relatively pleased.
3) Introducing ladder season as in D2, while keeping AH and adding PvP. This is no doubt THE BEST solution. Shorter ladder seasons could be adjusted for selfound players, while PvP would kept AH users away from too much thinking about need for increased difficulty in PvE. Ladder resets would also prove to be best option for new comers, rather than coming into fully grown economy where new players pretty much can not do a shit. Current game is much less friendly to new comers than to selffound players. Ladder resets would keep everyone interested just as they did in D2, would prove to be good enough excuse for removing RMAH and with addition of season milestones just like SC2 has I cant imagine this would make anyone complain not even a little. Option 3 is pretty much what is going to happen with the exception of keeping in the Auction House. Although they cannot have too short of a ladder system since it is suppose to work with the paragon system (as in, in ladder, whatever paragon experience you gain transfers over to ~ladder afterwards), Blizzard is adding a ladder system that has a fresh new economy while separating Sc and Hc. Blizzard most likely does not want to take the chance with Auction House and Loot 2.0. The issue arises with the drop rate since with loot 2.0, less items will drop but are allegedly epicly better. So there is still a good chance people will end up using it the way it was used currently.
The problem is, as I meantioned in earlier post, that with Loot 2.0 they are also promising better itemization and increased item diversity in builds.
That being said, you will be getting better items than now, but lesser of then useful for your own char. You will end up stacking full stash of epic items for characters and builds you dont want to play...
People should realize that the only time when trading is not needed is when they are willing to either throw away awesome items they dont have use for at that moment or when all characters and all builds use same items. While itemization in current state is pure shit, its still not that bad that all builds could use exactly same items... And since they are promising to make things better, the necessity of trading will only increase.
Honestly if they really end up making ladders, removing AH is just retarded. No reason for that at all.
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On September 21 2013 02:31 Taguchi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2013 01:13 MoonfireSpam wrote:On September 20 2013 11:11 Taguchi wrote:
Enter AH: It's right there, in your face. The time required for market research and finding a seller is no more. Everyone and their mother uses it, as opposed to traditional forum / tradechat where only a small part of the total population used it. The hardcore gamers gear up in no time at all. The casuals can feed off the hardcores who farm loot at vastly greater rates than them and are willing to sell it dirt cheap, since they got so much of it. The economy is driven into the ground in no time at all.
Only small percent used it because most people don't want to play "chase a buyer/seller" and do that market research shit, I would rather do it in real life if I'm going to commit time like that. They said it themselves that the game should be about killing shit and getting loots. Keep both, make good loot easy to find (i.e. like Meph runs in D2) and super awesome loot still rare. People can still trade easily, and awesome items still retain value until bots or dupe. Example: I want to buy enchanting mats. I could do onto the AH, pick one up quick. Or without it spam trade chat, or post on a forum, waste more time bartering, waste some time with seller that is late / doesn't show up. The point is that trading is vastly more efficient than simply finding loot yourself and if everyone trades, droprates MUST be adjusted so the game isn't retardedly easy and therefore unfun. AH makes it so everyone will trade. Removing AH makes it so not everyone will trade. The droprate adjustment can be a lot less severe if, by design, a small part of the game's population will look to trade. It's that simple.
My prediction is this will happen:
Decent gear will be easy to find through buffed drop rates (like like how it is on the AH at the moment). Everyone gears up at roughly equivalent speeds (remember if you start with 0 gold, it would still take some time to buy yourself stuff). There is almost no market for this level of gear, so it all gets vendored or disenchanted or sold for fuck all (like now).
Many people will find one AWESOME (think perfect quadfecta amulet or something) item that won't be for their class.
Now we go two ways:
1a. Trade spam. b. Forums c. Paypal+/-scam
2. Go on an AH -> sell -> buy with gold/$$$.
To turn a phrase, if Blizzard gets the penis right on the G-spot then I agree, nobody will need the AH. If they miss, then everyone is in for an awkward time of finishing themselves off in the bathroom while the other half sleeps. We should probably just agree to disagree.
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On September 21 2013 08:14 MoonfireSpam wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2013 02:31 Taguchi wrote:On September 21 2013 01:13 MoonfireSpam wrote:On September 20 2013 11:11 Taguchi wrote:
Enter AH: It's right there, in your face. The time required for market research and finding a seller is no more. Everyone and their mother uses it, as opposed to traditional forum / tradechat where only a small part of the total population used it. The hardcore gamers gear up in no time at all. The casuals can feed off the hardcores who farm loot at vastly greater rates than them and are willing to sell it dirt cheap, since they got so much of it. The economy is driven into the ground in no time at all.
Only small percent used it because most people don't want to play "chase a buyer/seller" and do that market research shit, I would rather do it in real life if I'm going to commit time like that. They said it themselves that the game should be about killing shit and getting loots. Keep both, make good loot easy to find (i.e. like Meph runs in D2) and super awesome loot still rare. People can still trade easily, and awesome items still retain value until bots or dupe. Example: I want to buy enchanting mats. I could do onto the AH, pick one up quick. Or without it spam trade chat, or post on a forum, waste more time bartering, waste some time with seller that is late / doesn't show up. The point is that trading is vastly more efficient than simply finding loot yourself and if everyone trades, droprates MUST be adjusted so the game isn't retardedly easy and therefore unfun. AH makes it so everyone will trade. Removing AH makes it so not everyone will trade. The droprate adjustment can be a lot less severe if, by design, a small part of the game's population will look to trade. It's that simple. My prediction is this will happen: Decent gear will be easy to find through buffed drop rates (like like how it is on the AH at the moment). Everyone gears up at roughly equivalent speeds (remember if you start with 0 gold, it would still take some time to buy yourself stuff). There is almost no market for this level of gear, so it all gets vendored or disenchanted or sold for fuck all (like now). Many people will find one AWESOME (think perfect quadfecta amulet or something) item that won't be for their class. Now we go two ways: 1a. Trade spam. b. Forums c. Paypal+/-scam 2. Go on an AH -> sell -> buy with gold/$$$. To turn a phrase, if Blizzard gets the penis right on the G-spot then I agree, nobody will need the AH. If they miss, then everyone is in for an awkward time of finishing themselves off in the bathroom while the other half sleeps. We should probably just agree to disagree.
Keep in mind that the drop rates are not being buffed, they are being nerfed. The quality of the items are being buffed. So in a way, if drops across the board are buffed, it would be looked at a drop rate buff in terms of usefulness. Furthermore, Loot 2.0 will be adding a sort of smart drop system where although not 100% controlled, the drops will be catered toward your hero.
Blizzard is also looking into the means by which we will trade without the Auction House. Considering the whole removal has only just now been revealed, we will not hear of any potential upgrade to the system for quite some time. I am sure we are all well aware of how slow Blizzard is with their b.net 2.0.
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On September 21 2013 08:20 Nilrem wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2013 08:14 MoonfireSpam wrote:On September 21 2013 02:31 Taguchi wrote:On September 21 2013 01:13 MoonfireSpam wrote:On September 20 2013 11:11 Taguchi wrote:
Enter AH: It's right there, in your face. The time required for market research and finding a seller is no more. Everyone and their mother uses it, as opposed to traditional forum / tradechat where only a small part of the total population used it. The hardcore gamers gear up in no time at all. The casuals can feed off the hardcores who farm loot at vastly greater rates than them and are willing to sell it dirt cheap, since they got so much of it. The economy is driven into the ground in no time at all.
Only small percent used it because most people don't want to play "chase a buyer/seller" and do that market research shit, I would rather do it in real life if I'm going to commit time like that. They said it themselves that the game should be about killing shit and getting loots. Keep both, make good loot easy to find (i.e. like Meph runs in D2) and super awesome loot still rare. People can still trade easily, and awesome items still retain value until bots or dupe. Example: I want to buy enchanting mats. I could do onto the AH, pick one up quick. Or without it spam trade chat, or post on a forum, waste more time bartering, waste some time with seller that is late / doesn't show up. The point is that trading is vastly more efficient than simply finding loot yourself and if everyone trades, droprates MUST be adjusted so the game isn't retardedly easy and therefore unfun. AH makes it so everyone will trade. Removing AH makes it so not everyone will trade. The droprate adjustment can be a lot less severe if, by design, a small part of the game's population will look to trade. It's that simple. My prediction is this will happen: Decent gear will be easy to find through buffed drop rates (like like how it is on the AH at the moment). Everyone gears up at roughly equivalent speeds (remember if you start with 0 gold, it would still take some time to buy yourself stuff). There is almost no market for this level of gear, so it all gets vendored or disenchanted or sold for fuck all (like now). Many people will find one AWESOME (think perfect quadfecta amulet or something) item that won't be for their class. Now we go two ways: 1a. Trade spam. b. Forums c. Paypal+/-scam 2. Go on an AH -> sell -> buy with gold/$$$. To turn a phrase, if Blizzard gets the penis right on the G-spot then I agree, nobody will need the AH. If they miss, then everyone is in for an awkward time of finishing themselves off in the bathroom while the other half sleeps. We should probably just agree to disagree. Keep in mind that the drop rates are not being buffed, they are being nerfed. The quality of the items are being buffed. So in a way, if drops across the board are buffed, it would be looked at a drop rate buff in terms of usefulness. Furthermore, Loot 2.0 will be adding a sort of smart drop system where although not 100% controlled, the drops will be catered toward your hero. Blizzard is also looking into the means by which we will trade without the Auction House. Considering the whole removal has only just now been revealed, we will not hear of any potential upgrade to the system for quite some time. I am sure we are all well aware of how slow Blizzard is with their b.net 2.0.
That it true, hence why I used the example of near perfect items that most players I'm sure have never seen.
I guess my main point is: leaving the AH is almost a failsafe for anything lacking in Loot 2.0 because people could at least still gear up / trade with ease.
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I got mixed feelings about this. Obviously most people want to see the AH gone.
But this will (without a proper replacement) lead to a two class society: those who trade and those who don't. The AH gave everyone a chance to trade and over time they would pay a "fair" price. Now it will become harder to know the "price" (w/e the currency will be) of an item.
It concerns me that people are willing to give up an open and transparent marketplace for nothing.
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it was not the ah that brake the game, it was the one of the good things about d3 by design. if only they had real goldsinks, good itemization and decent ah ui to go with it would have been great. i was sure i will be getting the expansion but I am starting to change my mind
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in d2 we had to trade with people by hosting/joining/spamming etc. Over time the economy got worse but it took years. The auction house in d3 just acted as a catalyst, it really sped up the process by making trading super easy. So basically they're nerfing trading so the economy doesnt collapse super fast.
Isnt it possible to make the game good with an auction house? (and without bind-on-account shit)
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On September 22 2013 02:46 Assault_1 wrote:
in d2 we had to trade with people by hosting/joining/spamming etc. Over time the economy got worse but it took years. The auction house in d3 just acted as a catalyst, it really sped up the process by making trading super easy. So basically they're nerfing trading so the economy doesnt collapse super fast.
Isnt it possible to make the game good with an auction house? (and without bind-on-account shit)
the obvious problem are botters whenever you got something farmable which is easily obtainable.
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On September 22 2013 02:43 Hryul wrote:
I got mixed feelings about this. Obviously most people want to see the AH gone.
But this will (without a proper replacement) lead to a two class society: those who trade and those who don't. The AH gave everyone a chance to trade and over time they would pay a "fair" price. Now it will become harder to know the "price" (w/e the currency will be) of an item.
It concerns me that people are willing to give up an open and transparent marketplace for nothing.
D2 was the same way, but you really never felt like you absolutely needed to trade for items, cause you could play solo to 99 and do your own meph / farm runs and be perfectly content, which a vast majority of people were, since by design, manual trading would turn off a large majority of players.
My proposition would be to simply make a "marketplace" gametype, throws a few dozen / hundred people into a map, and you could set up a player shop like some MMOs (Aion) do. Therefore it's a mostly automated system and takes out the stuff people don't want to do with regards to manual trading. The said map could have adjusted rules to prevent people from dropping items on the ground to minimize scam risks. At the same time, it's less accessible and opens up opportunities for bartering / trading if a player has something you want, but you can't afford their price / have something else.
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If they remove the AH they should raise the players per game cap.
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I disagree with the removal of the AH for several reasons. The first problem is that gold will go right back to being more or less worthless, just as it was in D2. So far the only game that I've seen avoid this problem entirely is Path of Exile, which uses a "barter currency" system where all of the currency items are also useful consumables. The AH at least shaved a small amount of money out of the system constantly. The second problem is that d2jsp is so well established that it's conceivable that the bulk of the trades that used to happen on the AH will just move over to d2jsp.
It's a pointless gesture that will create more problems than it solves (what happens to One With Everything, for example?)
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I like it. It means I will not trade at all, which is great because I might find loot I like.
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On September 23 2013 09:33 Mysticesper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 02:43 Hryul wrote:
I got mixed feelings about this. Obviously most people want to see the AH gone.
But this will (without a proper replacement) lead to a two class society: those who trade and those who don't. The AH gave everyone a chance to trade and over time they would pay a "fair" price. Now it will become harder to know the "price" (w/e the currency will be) of an item.
It concerns me that people are willing to give up an open and transparent marketplace for nothing. D2 was the same way, but you really never felt like you absolutely needed to trade for items, cause you could play solo to 99 and do your own meph / farm runs and be perfectly content, which a vast majority of people were, since by design, manual trading would turn off a large majority of players. My proposition would be to simply make a "marketplace" gametype, throws a few dozen / hundred people into a map, and you could set up a player shop like some MMOs (Aion) do. Therefore it's a mostly automated system and takes out the stuff people don't want to do with regards to manual trading. The said map could have adjusted rules to prevent people from dropping items on the ground to minimize scam risks. At the same time, it's less accessible and opens up opportunities for bartering / trading if a player has something you want, but you can't afford their price / have something else.
you can also reach plvl 100 in d3 on your own. it will just take longer on mp3 than mp10. I don't think they will replace the AH with another automated system.
The core problem, that people touched here too, is that the basic system is a problem since there is a constant influx of items, but no inherent loss of items. this leads to the "bigger, faster, stronger" mentality that "forced" people into the AH but leads to the frustration of not finding anything for yourself.
D2 simply solved this with the ladder reset, WoW with new raids. Until D3 implements something similar, the same problems as today will surface, just at a later point in time.
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I'm glad it's gone, although I never used it for buying in the first place.
I hope without AH and with "Loot 2.0" a lot more builds will be viable playing selffound (which I expect most people to play afterwards)
Let's face it, all those builds that are talked about frequently (Barb WW, Wiz CM/freeze etc.) aren't even feasible without the AH to run efficiently (perma WW e.g.)
I played Diablo 1 solo when it release and skipped D2 because I wasn't looking for something to grind out. For me the most fun about Skills in Diablo has always been combining the Skills and Items you randomly found to maximize efficiency, not to read some guide and buy stuff for some million gold and do what everybody else is doing..
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EPT
