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just a FYI about DPS, attack speed, and off hands
let's say we have a 100-400 damage off-hand. so it has an average of 250 damage
now let's compare 1H weapons, the slowest 1H is 1.2 AS and the fastest is 1.5 AS.
the DPS comparison between the two
1.2 * 250 = 300
1.5 * 250 = 375
now let's assume there's a 25 IAS modifer on the 1.5 AS and 0 IAS on the 1.2 AS.
1.2 * 250 = 300
(1.5 * 1.25) * 250 = 468.75
if we throw in IAS (let's say 25, 50, or 75) from gear for the 1.5 AS weapon and leave the 1.2 AS weapon with 0 IAS
1.2 * 250 = 300
(1.5 * 1.25) * 250 = 468.75
(1.5 * 1.25) * 250 * 1.25 = 585.9
(1.5 * 1.25) * 250 * 1.5 = 703
(1.5 * 1.25) * 250 * 1.75 = 820
I'm not considering things like main hand, Int, Crit %, or Crit damage so the DPS boost from IAS is even more than the above
the more attack speed you have the more DPS you get out of having a high damage off-hand (same idea applies to a high damage weapon)
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Weapon IAS is already calculated in the weapon speed and dps.
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On June 06 2012 00:27 udgnim wrote:
just a FYI about DPS, attack speed, and off hands
let's say we have a 100-400 damage off-hand. so it has an average of 250 damage
now let's compare 1H weapons, the slowest 1H is 1.2 AS and the fastest is 1.5 AS.
the DPS comparison between the two
1.2 * 250 = 300
1.5 * 250 = 375
now let's assume there's a 25 IAS modifer on the 1.5 AS and 0 IAS on the 1.2 AS.
1.2 * 250 = 300
(1.5 * 1.25) * 250 = 468.75
if we throw in IAS (let's say 25, 50, or 75) from gear for the 1.5 AS weapon and leave the 1.2 AS weapon with 0 IAS
1.2 * 250 = 300
(1.5 * 1.25) * 250 = 468.75
(1.5 * 1.25) * 250 * 1.25 = 585.9
(1.5 * 1.25) * 250 * 1.5 = 703
(1.5 * 1.25) * 250 * 1.75 = 820
I'm not considering things like main hand, Int, Crit %, or Crit damage so the DPS boost from IAS is even more than the above
the more attack speed you have the more DPS you get out of having a high damage off-hand (same idea applies to a high damage weapon)
I agree that attack speed benefits dps, but people have been arguing that attack speed trumps everything else. If two weapons have the same dps but different attack speed, then it would be better to use the weapon with faster attack speed. Example:
750 damage weapon, 1.2 attack speed, overall dps 900.
600 damage weapon, 1.5 attack speed, overall dps 900.
The second weapon becomes better when you factor in +dmg from offhands, rings and amulets. Both will get the same increase in dps from attack speed increase items.
Now what I'm saying it that a lower dps, high attack speed weapon isn't better than a high dps, low attack speed weapon. Example:
600 damage weapon. 1.5 attack speed, overall dps 900.
900 damage weapon, 1.2 attack speed, overall dps 1080.
Now if you had nothing else, obviously 1200 > 900. How does offhands factor in? I'll use the example of the offhand with 250 damage.
850 total damage, 1.5 attack speed, overall dps 1275.
1050 total damage, 1.2 attack speed, overal dps 1380.
In summary, you shouldn't overlook the weapon's overall dps. Fast base attack speed isn't everything. Fast attack speeds allow a player to react more quickly to charging mobs and projectiles, but it's still affected by diminishing returns. You won't find much real difference in reaction time between 2.0 and 2.2 attacks per second (if dps remains the same), because you're no longer hindered by the casting animation, but by physical reaction speed and lag.
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On June 05 2012 21:34 DrGreen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 18:59 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
hey witchdocs need a quick estimate on a offhand:
51-316dmg
38int
154vit
7.5% crit
have no clue of wd gear and comparing offhands in the ah is damn confusing. crap or good? :> gooooooood 1m+
sounds cool but im confused. guy in the other thread said like 50-150k which is quite crappy.
comparing it to ah stuff(which is stupidly hard for offhands..) seems like similar ones are listed for quite alot (like 3m+) but alot of people stupidly overpice their stuff so i really dont know what to do with it atm ;P
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On June 06 2012 00:47 Heh_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 00:27 udgnim wrote:
just a FYI about DPS, attack speed, and off hands
let's say we have a 100-400 damage off-hand. so it has an average of 250 damage
now let's compare 1H weapons, the slowest 1H is 1.2 AS and the fastest is 1.5 AS.
the DPS comparison between the two
1.2 * 250 = 300
1.5 * 250 = 375
now let's assume there's a 25 IAS modifer on the 1.5 AS and 0 IAS on the 1.2 AS.
1.2 * 250 = 300
(1.5 * 1.25) * 250 = 468.75
if we throw in IAS (let's say 25, 50, or 75) from gear for the 1.5 AS weapon and leave the 1.2 AS weapon with 0 IAS
1.2 * 250 = 300
(1.5 * 1.25) * 250 = 468.75
(1.5 * 1.25) * 250 * 1.25 = 585.9
(1.5 * 1.25) * 250 * 1.5 = 703
(1.5 * 1.25) * 250 * 1.75 = 820
I'm not considering things like main hand, Int, Crit %, or Crit damage so the DPS boost from IAS is even more than the above
the more attack speed you have the more DPS you get out of having a high damage off-hand (same idea applies to a high damage weapon) I agree that attack speed benefits dps, but people have been arguing that attack speed trumps everything else. If two weapons have the same dps but different attack speed, then it would be better to use the weapon with faster attack speed.
Except the dagger in question was only 100 less dps on a 1.74 speed weapon and it also gave 100 int. You can use your fancy numbers to make yourself look right here, but try running the numbers on the actual weapons we were comparing.
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On June 06 2012 04:02 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 00:47 Heh_ wrote:On June 06 2012 00:27 udgnim wrote:
just a FYI about DPS, attack speed, and off hands
let's say we have a 100-400 damage off-hand. so it has an average of 250 damage
now let's compare 1H weapons, the slowest 1H is 1.2 AS and the fastest is 1.5 AS.
the DPS comparison between the two
1.2 * 250 = 300
1.5 * 250 = 375
now let's assume there's a 25 IAS modifer on the 1.5 AS and 0 IAS on the 1.2 AS.
1.2 * 250 = 300
(1.5 * 1.25) * 250 = 468.75
if we throw in IAS (let's say 25, 50, or 75) from gear for the 1.5 AS weapon and leave the 1.2 AS weapon with 0 IAS
1.2 * 250 = 300
(1.5 * 1.25) * 250 = 468.75
(1.5 * 1.25) * 250 * 1.25 = 585.9
(1.5 * 1.25) * 250 * 1.5 = 703
(1.5 * 1.25) * 250 * 1.75 = 820
I'm not considering things like main hand, Int, Crit %, or Crit damage so the DPS boost from IAS is even more than the above
the more attack speed you have the more DPS you get out of having a high damage off-hand (same idea applies to a high damage weapon) I agree that attack speed benefits dps, but people have been arguing that attack speed trumps everything else. If two weapons have the same dps but different attack speed, then it would be better to use the weapon with faster attack speed. Except the dagger in question was only 100 less dps on a 1.74 speed weapon and it also gave 100 int. You can use your fancy numbers to make yourself look right here, but try running the numbers on the actual weapons we were comparing.
It has 714 dps. I mentioned 800 dps because you can buy weapons like that very cheaply. That weapon might sell for 5,6 digit prices, but definitely not 7. For 1 million, you can get 900-950 dps weapons.
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On June 06 2012 04:51 Heh_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 04:02 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On June 06 2012 00:47 Heh_ wrote:On June 06 2012 00:27 udgnim wrote:
just a FYI about DPS, attack speed, and off hands
let's say we have a 100-400 damage off-hand. so it has an average of 250 damage
now let's compare 1H weapons, the slowest 1H is 1.2 AS and the fastest is 1.5 AS.
the DPS comparison between the two
1.2 * 250 = 300
1.5 * 250 = 375
now let's assume there's a 25 IAS modifer on the 1.5 AS and 0 IAS on the 1.2 AS.
1.2 * 250 = 300
(1.5 * 1.25) * 250 = 468.75
if we throw in IAS (let's say 25, 50, or 75) from gear for the 1.5 AS weapon and leave the 1.2 AS weapon with 0 IAS
1.2 * 250 = 300
(1.5 * 1.25) * 250 = 468.75
(1.5 * 1.25) * 250 * 1.25 = 585.9
(1.5 * 1.25) * 250 * 1.5 = 703
(1.5 * 1.25) * 250 * 1.75 = 820
I'm not considering things like main hand, Int, Crit %, or Crit damage so the DPS boost from IAS is even more than the above
the more attack speed you have the more DPS you get out of having a high damage off-hand (same idea applies to a high damage weapon) I agree that attack speed benefits dps, but people have been arguing that attack speed trumps everything else. If two weapons have the same dps but different attack speed, then it would be better to use the weapon with faster attack speed. Except the dagger in question was only 100 less dps on a 1.74 speed weapon and it also gave 100 int. You can use your fancy numbers to make yourself look right here, but try running the numbers on the actual weapons we were comparing. It has 714 dps. I mentioned 800 dps because you can buy weapons like that very cheaply. That weapon might sell for 5,6 digit prices, but definitely not 7. For 1 million, you can get 900-950 dps weapons.
How are these prices relevant? Even if the weapon was vendor trash it doesn't change the fact that the damage is comparable.
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On June 06 2012 05:04 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 04:51 Heh_ wrote:On June 06 2012 04:02 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On June 06 2012 00:47 Heh_ wrote:On June 06 2012 00:27 udgnim wrote:
just a FYI about DPS, attack speed, and off hands
let's say we have a 100-400 damage off-hand. so it has an average of 250 damage
now let's compare 1H weapons, the slowest 1H is 1.2 AS and the fastest is 1.5 AS.
the DPS comparison between the two
1.2 * 250 = 300
1.5 * 250 = 375
now let's assume there's a 25 IAS modifer on the 1.5 AS and 0 IAS on the 1.2 AS.
1.2 * 250 = 300
(1.5 * 1.25) * 250 = 468.75
if we throw in IAS (let's say 25, 50, or 75) from gear for the 1.5 AS weapon and leave the 1.2 AS weapon with 0 IAS
1.2 * 250 = 300
(1.5 * 1.25) * 250 = 468.75
(1.5 * 1.25) * 250 * 1.25 = 585.9
(1.5 * 1.25) * 250 * 1.5 = 703
(1.5 * 1.25) * 250 * 1.75 = 820
I'm not considering things like main hand, Int, Crit %, or Crit damage so the DPS boost from IAS is even more than the above
the more attack speed you have the more DPS you get out of having a high damage off-hand (same idea applies to a high damage weapon) I agree that attack speed benefits dps, but people have been arguing that attack speed trumps everything else. If two weapons have the same dps but different attack speed, then it would be better to use the weapon with faster attack speed. Except the dagger in question was only 100 less dps on a 1.74 speed weapon and it also gave 100 int. You can use your fancy numbers to make yourself look right here, but try running the numbers on the actual weapons we were comparing. It has 714 dps. I mentioned 800 dps because you can buy weapons like that very cheaply. That weapon might sell for 5,6 digit prices, but definitely not 7. For 1 million, you can get 900-950 dps weapons. How are these prices relevant? Even if the weapon was vendor trash it doesn't change the fact that the damage is comparable.
Because... he was trying to sell the weapon?
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On June 06 2012 05:07 Heh_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 05:04 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On June 06 2012 04:51 Heh_ wrote:On June 06 2012 04:02 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On June 06 2012 00:47 Heh_ wrote:On June 06 2012 00:27 udgnim wrote:
just a FYI about DPS, attack speed, and off hands
let's say we have a 100-400 damage off-hand. so it has an average of 250 damage
now let's compare 1H weapons, the slowest 1H is 1.2 AS and the fastest is 1.5 AS.
the DPS comparison between the two
1.2 * 250 = 300
1.5 * 250 = 375
now let's assume there's a 25 IAS modifer on the 1.5 AS and 0 IAS on the 1.2 AS.
1.2 * 250 = 300
(1.5 * 1.25) * 250 = 468.75
if we throw in IAS (let's say 25, 50, or 75) from gear for the 1.5 AS weapon and leave the 1.2 AS weapon with 0 IAS
1.2 * 250 = 300
(1.5 * 1.25) * 250 = 468.75
(1.5 * 1.25) * 250 * 1.25 = 585.9
(1.5 * 1.25) * 250 * 1.5 = 703
(1.5 * 1.25) * 250 * 1.75 = 820
I'm not considering things like main hand, Int, Crit %, or Crit damage so the DPS boost from IAS is even more than the above
the more attack speed you have the more DPS you get out of having a high damage off-hand (same idea applies to a high damage weapon) I agree that attack speed benefits dps, but people have been arguing that attack speed trumps everything else. If two weapons have the same dps but different attack speed, then it would be better to use the weapon with faster attack speed. Except the dagger in question was only 100 less dps on a 1.74 speed weapon and it also gave 100 int. You can use your fancy numbers to make yourself look right here, but try running the numbers on the actual weapons we were comparing. It has 714 dps. I mentioned 800 dps because you can buy weapons like that very cheaply. That weapon might sell for 5,6 digit prices, but definitely not 7. For 1 million, you can get 900-950 dps weapons. How are these prices relevant? Even if the weapon was vendor trash it doesn't change the fact that the damage is comparable. Because... he was trying to sell the weapon?
So then you agree that the 714 dps weapon he posted does do more damage? We're discussing the importance of attack speed.
A few posts ago you said
but people have been arguing that attack speed trumps everything else.
No one ever made this blanket and untrue statement. The weapon is only better because it also has an open socket and 100 intelligence. The attack speed is a major factor in this whole thing as well, but it isn't the only cause. A 1.74 base speed weapon with 700 dps probably isn't better than a 900 dps weapon if they're both lacking any other mods. The dagger we were talking about has other mods though and significant ones like an open socket. Emeralds in your weapon do magical things for dps at higher gear levels.
You also said this false statement
Both will get the same increase in dps from attack speed increase items.
The attack speed of a weapon is so important because your gear's attack speed is multiplied after the weapon's attack speed mod is applied. This gives you an even better gain than there should be making attack speed an incredibly potent stat. Plus the offhand's damage means that faster less damaging weapons are superior to see the highest gains in damage output.
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Oh yes, here's examples:
On June 04 2012 23:33 DeltruS wrote:
Your weapon needs improvement. Search for 1 handed daggers and ceremonial knives with 22%+ increased attack speed. A 1.88 attack speed dagger of the same dps as your wep would increase your attack speed by 58 ALONE which is more than all that attack speed gear you have been stacking. With your attack speed gear, that new weapon speed would bring you near 2.9 attacks per second and give you at least 10k dps more.
On June 05 2012 00:21 udgnim wrote:get a weapon with attack speed though (preferably as close to 25% IAS as possible). it will up your attack speed significantly assuming you have other gear with IAS Show nested quote +This is what I don't understand: what's the point of having 2.8+ attacks per second if each attack does next to nothing? Isn't the 22% increased attack speed already factored in to the weapon dps? If I can find a weapon on the AH with the same dps but higher attack speed, doesn't it simply mean that it attacks faster but less hard? your timing window for DPSing is wider. you have more chances to attack with higer attack speed whereas a lower attack speed might have needed more space to attack. this is especially important to me when dealing with elites/bosses 61K DPS @ 2.92 attack speed does plenty of Splinter damage albeit single target damage which is one the biggest issues with WDs in comparison to what Wizard/DH has imo since WD damage is 90%+ splinters (at least mine)
And stop quoting me out of context. I said on a baseline without +dmg from offhand, rings and amulets, IAS does the exact same thing for two items with the same dps but diferent base attack speed. If you could read the next section, it doesn't take a genius to know that +dmg from offhand increases your dps to a greater extent on fast attack items.
What I'm saying is, if you're going to buy a weapon, don't sacrifice ridiculous amounts of dps for faster attack speed.
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On June 06 2012 05:40 Heh_ wrote:
What I'm saying is, if you're going to buy a weapon, don't sacrifice ridiculous amounts of dps for faster attack speed.
and I'm saying go ahead and sacrifice dps if you can get faster attack speed, intelligence, socket, and life on hit. Sometimes it is worth it to sacrifice dps. There is more to consider than that dps number that the game outputs.
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Is a 750 dps ceremonial knife with 14% attk speed and 400 life on hit worth 900k?
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On June 06 2012 09:15 Cookie wrote:
Is a 750 dps ceremonial knife with 14% attk speed and 400 life on hit worth 900k?
For that price, you can get a 944 dps 1.3 attack speed weapon. Evaluate for yourself whether sacrificing 200 dps is worth it, because my opinion doesn't seem to matter.
Edit: The 14% attack speed is already factored into the weapon's dps. If you don't believe me, go make a quick calculation yourself.
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On June 06 2012 09:18 Heh_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 09:15 Cookie wrote:
Is a 750 dps ceremonial knife with 14% attk speed and 400 life on hit worth 900k? For that price, you can get a 944 dps 1.3 attack speed weapon. Evaluate for yourself whether sacrificing 200 dps is worth it, because my opinion doesn't seem to matter. Edit: The 14% attack speed is already factored into the weapon's dps. If you don't believe me, go make a quick calculation yourself.
There are also 900 dps knives for 700k if you really want the mana regen. Life on hit isn't important.
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Got butcher down on inferno. Very happy with it so far, 27k dps spinterbuild. Too bad the upgrades I need now are so insanely expensive on EU :s using a 620 dps onehander , upgrading that costs about 2mil :/ prices are rediculous
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dezi
Germany1536 Posts
Yeah, EU is pretty expensive.
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After my misgivings about a WD's dps, I power-leveled me a DH and when I hit 60 bought me gear for all the gold I had, about a million. It felt pretty retarded the damage I was outputting so easily. My WD has better gear and more survivability mainly due to spirit vessel, but my DH breezed through act 1 inferno so fast it was almost depressing. Even elite packs (+invulnerable ones) would just die before they got to me by spamming Nether Tentacles, I even killed a quest mini-boss before he even showed up my screen. Act 2 and 3 are harder but it is still works to kite and spam NT, I die a lot but I kill everything faster and it is much easier to play. I also tried to help a barb to kill Belial but we just lacked dps in P2 (he was tank build), so what the heck I'll switch to demon hunter, and suddenly we had sufficient dps.
I still love my witch doctor more but this wasn't very inspiring to keep playing him.
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Yeah I really hope we get the buffstick end of the upcomming patch. WD DPS is so low compared to the rest, and since people get that now, the items to improve the WD DPS are so damn expensive it isnt fun anymore
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dezi
Germany1536 Posts
Haha, just found a ~800DPS, 160agi bow before i went to uni today. Gave it to my newly 60 DH mate - he's at 41k DPS now ... new 60 ... 41k DPS ... i'm at 31k and at 60 for almost 2 weeks now - way to easy to stack damage on DH esp. when you consider DH stuff drops at nearly every champ/hero/... I want 1.03 with viable pets NOW.
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EPT
