EPTOn February 05 2011 08:40 Bleak wrote:
I feel like a parrot saying the same thing every post. Because it is the ladder!!!! Everyone plays in ladder not just pros. The maps should cover all of that. New maps create new problems, which can be solved at pro-level, but not all ladder players can do that. A huge majority of people on ladder probably doesn't know what teamliquid or who day9 is. The game is really new, the strategies are not standardized and new playstyles are being created almost every day, there might be things that cause problem for the normal folk and not for the pros. Not everyone that can play reasonable plays great. They may not get supply blocked and always spend their money, but they just might not know about micro or the overall strategy at all.
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On February 05 2011 08:32 Nayl wrote:
If they can play the game at reasonable level, I don't see how there could be something balanced for Pros but imbalanced for "reasonable casuals".
Also GSL maps are constantly reevaluated for balance, where as Blizzard seems to design maps on what they think is fun. Map 1-3 is definitely step in the right direction; HOWEVER, there are still fundamental flaws in these maps that GSL maps have as basic requirement.
There are positional imbalances. This would be unacceptable by most tournament organizers as it gives inherent advantage for spawning at certain location.
There are huge variability in distance depending on spawn points. Now, I've only tried the map against AI, but it seems like there is no spawn lock like in Shakuras Plateau. Meaning just like metalopolis, you can either be in closest rush distance possible out of the map pool, or farthest distance. This is just a bad design, putting outcome of the game flow on a dice roll. If you check GSL 4 player maps, variability in rush distances are not as huge as blizzard maps.
Ramp that doesn't face natural expo. This means against any FE builds, you can easily walk into their main. In fact, forge FE is impossible on most of these maps. Why take away a style of play?
Also, why do you believe that its necessary for blizzard to have absolute control over the ladder?
On February 05 2011 08:16 Bleak wrote:
Oh I forgot, they shouldn't. Because they don't play the game. The game should be reserved for tip-top elitists who know everything about not only SC2 but also BW and its entire history and the rest should get packed and leave. If you want the game to be opened to masses, this is not the attitude you want to be in.
There is a difference between bad casuals, and those who just want to enjoy the game. Those who are simply bad, are without hope and the balance changes are not prepared with them being in mind. The balance changes are for those who can play the game at a reasonable level and don't let their own fundamental mistakes shadow their entire gameplay (i.e getting supply blocked all time)
I'm not changing my argument at all. The argument is the same. Ladder maps are created with taking many things in considerations. One of them, is having control. It seems to me that the Blizzard have learnt their lesson from WC3, since they are actually making changes to it.
On February 05 2011 08:10 Nayl wrote:
WC3 example alone shows Blizzard "control" is not a good thing. Blizzard never updated ladder maps ever, and look what happened. They used same bloody maps for years.
Anyone who actually played BW would agree that the abyss was and is MUCH better option than battle.net for learning melee games.
It is good that they are at least trying to add new maps. BUT, they don't seem to have enough man power to handle this "control", yet they want to hang onto it for the sake of controlling.
And you keep changing your argument, sighs.
Are you suggesting that Blizzard should balance the game for Casuals too?
On February 05 2011 08:05 Bleak wrote:
A map that is not made by the game creators will cause more trouble to them because they do not have the control over it, they haven't been involved in its creation, therefore they aren't comfortable with using them in the ladder. They want to have the control because they are in charge of game balance. These issues will be fixed at pro-level, but at the ladder level, the control is important to balance the game. For this reason, the community made maps will most likely never be seen in the ladder map pool and the reason is not just ignorance or not caring enough, but this simple fact: Control.
On February 05 2011 07:49 Nayl wrote:
Well then they should have at least the option of pro maps available shouldn't they?
Do you really think people enjoy playing on Delta/Stepps? I can say this
about the current map pool. Does blizzard care about that? Well, currently, no.
By the way, GSL maps get constantly updated over and over, in order to make the map as balanced as possible. Gom has also been dismissing some maps due to issues with it, and they are being very careful when picking from these maps.
Again, do blizzard do this? No. I honestly don't think they have enough man power to commit to this kind of details, yet they refuse to use community driven map, or at least adopt their philosophy. Instead, they add maps for the sake of adding maps. Earlier in the thread mentioned Test map 5 was shown at Blizzcon, and its actually in the blizzard custom map pool, its named New Antioch.
You cannot honestly say current ladder map pool Blizzard is keeping because current style seems fun for the casuals. Dustin browder himself even said 2 rax pressure is "garbage". And what do Casuals usually cry about? That this game is too much about "rushes".
On February 05 2011 07:39 Bleak wrote:
At some point you need to draw the distance between the two. Ladder is ladder, tournament is tournament. You can choose your opponent in ICCUP, so maps will matter there. In ladder you just click the button and play someone in your region. Therefore it is important to draw the distinction. Yes, some players might enjoy the map. But some won't. It needs to be taken into account, even though there is an option to downvote the maps. The fact is that, the new maps will create new problems for the game. At the pro level, they can just find a way to deal with it and the game will open up to a different playstyle. What about the people in ladder? It is just too much work to balance the game around that.
Again I repeat, I'm not the one trying to make money playing a video game, if they love what they're doing and committed to it, they should just find a way to do it. It is their job.
On February 05 2011 07:33 Nayl wrote:
How about semi-pro players who aren't on a team? New players who wants to play competitively? Why create such artificial barrier of entry?
Also why is it so painful in trying out GSL-esque maps? Maybe even casuals will enjoy this kind of map once in a while. Isn't that the point of PTR?
The great Foreigner BW pros practiced using Iccup, because ICCup had 99% of the maps used by all tournaments around the world available. It's easy way to practice, you don't have to wait for your teammate to log on, you can just get in and play.
Also, When you have to ladder to qualify, It's pretty difficult to watch replays of a pro to learn anything because they are on a completely different map pool with completely different map making philosophy.
On February 05 2011 07:26 Bleak wrote:
Pros should find people that can play together in custom games on the GSL maps. Most of them already are in teams, and even those who aren't just play with other people. Ladder can be used to train against cheese, or all-ins maybe? And the question about why not try to make one map like it, perhaps they don't want too big maps like the GSL ones? How do the great BW pros practice? Do they just roll everyone in iccup? I'm sure they play each other as now people can do in custom games.
If the guy got through the ladder maps and a shitton of games to qualify for GSL, they should just prepare to put the effort to learn the new maps. Otherwise, how do you expect the tournaments to use new maps? In your logic, only ladder maps should be used because they have been here for a year, and adapting to the new maps will be too hard for them since they only practice on ladder. If they are pros, they should show how much pro they are and learn the new maps and deal with it.
On February 05 2011 07:18 Nayl wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
For most people, ladder is only way to practice this game. Also, GSL determines Code A qualifier through the ladder. But when the ladder is different from tournament, its very difficult to practice for a tournament.
According to your logic, Blizzard should either make a seperate league with different map pool for Pros and casuals, (which almost doesn't make as much sense as having different map pool for ladder and tourneys) or even better, allow organizations to create a private ladder with custom map pool.
Also There is not a single map in the current ladder pool that remotely resembles GSL-esque map. Why not even try to make ONE MAP like it?
+ Show Spoiler +
On February 05 2011 07:10 Bleak wrote:
In Blizzcon, devs have talked about maps and they have stated that tournaments should use their own maps. There is a freaking game editor for this that people use to create a ton of maps.
It is not right to compare GSL maps to the ladder maps. Only pros take part in the GSL. Ladder is played by everyone. They need to account for the wide range of players, while trying to create maps that can allow fun games to be played, while also trying to cater the pros that practice using the ladder and also those who bought the game and just want to enjoy it in their own way without trying to be pros and don't know about how great BW was or don't care a thing about it. With those in mind, they're trying to do design some maps to the best of they can with their own thinking. But, people always find something to whine, you cannot satisfy anyone and the devs are aware of that, so that is why they don't take these pointless, childish complaining too seriously. No map is perfect, and so these maps are not, but they are just trying to make changes to the current pool.
Asking the Blizzard to get the GSL maps into the ladder is ridiculous. The world is just not composed of Pros, and people who try to put themselves in their shoes while playing the game just because they want to feel "cool" like them while trying to pull off the things they do on those "ideal" maps. Maybe some people don't want too big maps in ladder? Maybe they want variety? Maybe they don't share the same philosophy regarding how the game should be played out? Why is ICCUP map making team, or just Kespa or whoever that made the maps in past have the absolute perfect tip-top uber ideas about how a map should be? Why are some people, so blindly adhering to the thought that these people should know the best and they are right 100% ? Perhaps they do actually, but why should the Blizzard dev team, the guys that made the game and play the game too, have to know less than these organizations? They freaking made the game. Do you think they are that stupid? Perhaps they think harrassment from cliff is a legitimate strategy and should be used? Perhaps there are narrow spots in the map because they just don't want you to engage there and think if you are out of position, you should be punished? Perhaps they don't agree to your point of view? Ever thought of that?
Yes, there are bad maps. Delta Quadrant,Blistering Sands, Steppes of War, Jungle Basin or any map with close position spawn possible is downright boring and can drive some people including me, crazy. These maps are just not fun to play for a macro or a long game at all. But perhaps those maps are to be played in a quick fashion, with a more aggressive mindset. I know that this isn't fun in pro-scene at all, because you just want to see interesting and long-term play, but that is the point, it is a ladder map! Not for a tournament. The goal is not that. The ladder maps have been used in tournaments so far because there weren't any good maps that the map making teams could create in time. If you oh so want to play in the ICCUP maps, custom games are there, try to find some good practice partners and play the game in your own way. It's not going to be as competitive or thrilling as ladder can be, but the sad truth is that if people could have whatever they want then the human civilization would be wiped out by now.
Again, I want to emphasize this: I'm not trying to say that the Blizz devs know the best, rest don't, or the other way round. It is just the pointless and unnecessary criticism to whatever they are trying to do. It is just childish. You're saying that they should know all because of 12 years of BW Korean Pro-Scene experience. You are comparing pro-scene, with maps designed for pro-play, to the ladder. Apples to oranges.
In Blizzcon, devs have talked about maps and they have stated that tournaments should use their own maps. There is a freaking game editor for this that people use to create a ton of maps.
It is not right to compare GSL maps to the ladder maps. Only pros take part in the GSL. Ladder is played by everyone. They need to account for the wide range of players, while trying to create maps that can allow fun games to be played, while also trying to cater the pros that practice using the ladder and also those who bought the game and just want to enjoy it in their own way without trying to be pros and don't know about how great BW was or don't care a thing about it. With those in mind, they're trying to do design some maps to the best of they can with their own thinking. But, people always find something to whine, you cannot satisfy anyone and the devs are aware of that, so that is why they don't take these pointless, childish complaining too seriously. No map is perfect, and so these maps are not, but they are just trying to make changes to the current pool.
Asking the Blizzard to get the GSL maps into the ladder is ridiculous. The world is just not composed of Pros, and people who try to put themselves in their shoes while playing the game just because they want to feel "cool" like them while trying to pull off the things they do on those "ideal" maps. Maybe some people don't want too big maps in ladder? Maybe they want variety? Maybe they don't share the same philosophy regarding how the game should be played out? Why is ICCUP map making team, or just Kespa or whoever that made the maps in past have the absolute perfect tip-top uber ideas about how a map should be? Why are some people, so blindly adhering to the thought that these people should know the best and they are right 100% ? Perhaps they do actually, but why should the Blizzard dev team, the guys that made the game and play the game too, have to know less than these organizations? They freaking made the game. Do you think they are that stupid? Perhaps they think harrassment from cliff is a legitimate strategy and should be used? Perhaps there are narrow spots in the map because they just don't want you to engage there and think if you are out of position, you should be punished? Perhaps they don't agree to your point of view? Ever thought of that?
Yes, there are bad maps. Delta Quadrant,Blistering Sands, Steppes of War, Jungle Basin or any map with close position spawn possible is downright boring and can drive some people including me, crazy. These maps are just not fun to play for a macro or a long game at all. But perhaps those maps are to be played in a quick fashion, with a more aggressive mindset. I know that this isn't fun in pro-scene at all, because you just want to see interesting and long-term play, but that is the point, it is a ladder map! Not for a tournament. The goal is not that. The ladder maps have been used in tournaments so far because there weren't any good maps that the map making teams could create in time. If you oh so want to play in the ICCUP maps, custom games are there, try to find some good practice partners and play the game in your own way. It's not going to be as competitive or thrilling as ladder can be, but the sad truth is that if people could have whatever they want then the human civilization would be wiped out by now.
Again, I want to emphasize this: I'm not trying to say that the Blizz devs know the best, rest don't, or the other way round. It is just the pointless and unnecessary criticism to whatever they are trying to do. It is just childish. You're saying that they should know all because of 12 years of BW Korean Pro-Scene experience. You are comparing pro-scene, with maps designed for pro-play, to the ladder. Apples to oranges.
For most people, ladder is only way to practice this game. Also, GSL determines Code A qualifier through the ladder. But when the ladder is different from tournament, its very difficult to practice for a tournament.
According to your logic, Blizzard should either make a seperate league with different map pool for Pros and casuals, (which almost doesn't make as much sense as having different map pool for ladder and tourneys) or even better, allow organizations to create a private ladder with custom map pool.
Also There is not a single map in the current ladder pool that remotely resembles GSL-esque map. Why not even try to make ONE MAP like it?
Pros should find people that can play together in custom games on the GSL maps. Most of them already are in teams, and even those who aren't just play with other people. Ladder can be used to train against cheese, or all-ins maybe? And the question about why not try to make one map like it, perhaps they don't want too big maps like the GSL ones? How do the great BW pros practice? Do they just roll everyone in iccup? I'm sure they play each other as now people can do in custom games.
If the guy got through the ladder maps and a shitton of games to qualify for GSL, they should just prepare to put the effort to learn the new maps. Otherwise, how do you expect the tournaments to use new maps? In your logic, only ladder maps should be used because they have been here for a year, and adapting to the new maps will be too hard for them since they only practice on ladder. If they are pros, they should show how much pro they are and learn the new maps and deal with it.
How about semi-pro players who aren't on a team? New players who wants to play competitively? Why create such artificial barrier of entry?
Also why is it so painful in trying out GSL-esque maps? Maybe even casuals will enjoy this kind of map once in a while. Isn't that the point of PTR?
The great Foreigner BW pros practiced using Iccup, because ICCup had 99% of the maps used by all tournaments around the world available. It's easy way to practice, you don't have to wait for your teammate to log on, you can just get in and play.
Also, When you have to ladder to qualify, It's pretty difficult to watch replays of a pro to learn anything because they are on a completely different map pool with completely different map making philosophy.
At some point you need to draw the distance between the two. Ladder is ladder, tournament is tournament. You can choose your opponent in ICCUP, so maps will matter there. In ladder you just click the button and play someone in your region. Therefore it is important to draw the distinction. Yes, some players might enjoy the map. But some won't. It needs to be taken into account, even though there is an option to downvote the maps. The fact is that, the new maps will create new problems for the game. At the pro level, they can just find a way to deal with it and the game will open up to a different playstyle. What about the people in ladder? It is just too much work to balance the game around that.
Again I repeat, I'm not the one trying to make money playing a video game, if they love what they're doing and committed to it, they should just find a way to do it. It is their job.
Well then they should have at least the option of pro maps available shouldn't they?
Do you really think people enjoy playing on Delta/Stepps? I can say this
some players might enjoy the map. But some won't.
about the current map pool. Does blizzard care about that? Well, currently, no.
By the way, GSL maps get constantly updated over and over, in order to make the map as balanced as possible. Gom has also been dismissing some maps due to issues with it, and they are being very careful when picking from these maps.
Again, do blizzard do this? No. I honestly don't think they have enough man power to commit to this kind of details, yet they refuse to use community driven map, or at least adopt their philosophy. Instead, they add maps for the sake of adding maps. Earlier in the thread mentioned Test map 5 was shown at Blizzcon, and its actually in the blizzard custom map pool, its named New Antioch.
You cannot honestly say current ladder map pool Blizzard is keeping because current style seems fun for the casuals. Dustin browder himself even said 2 rax pressure is "garbage". And what do Casuals usually cry about? That this game is too much about "rushes".
A map that is not made by the game creators will cause more trouble to them because they do not have the control over it, they haven't been involved in its creation, therefore they aren't comfortable with using them in the ladder. They want to have the control because they are in charge of game balance. These issues will be fixed at pro-level, but at the ladder level, the control is important to balance the game. For this reason, the community made maps will most likely never be seen in the ladder map pool and the reason is not just ignorance or not caring enough, but this simple fact: Control.
WC3 example alone shows Blizzard "control" is not a good thing. Blizzard never updated ladder maps ever, and look what happened. They used same bloody maps for years.
Anyone who actually played BW would agree that the abyss was and is MUCH better option than battle.net for learning melee games.
It is good that they are at least trying to add new maps. BUT, they don't seem to have enough man power to handle this "control", yet they want to hang onto it for the sake of controlling.
And you keep changing your argument, sighs.
If someone finds a crazy build where they can get to 200/200 in no time with super aggresive expand style all over the big map and go and 1-a the opponent, the pro scene will find a way to beat it. Use the same map in ladder, see what happens.
Are you suggesting that Blizzard should balance the game for Casuals too?
Oh I forgot, they shouldn't. Because they don't play the game. The game should be reserved for tip-top elitists who know everything about not only SC2 but also BW and its entire history and the rest should get packed and leave. If you want the game to be opened to masses, this is not the attitude you want to be in.
There is a difference between bad casuals, and those who just want to enjoy the game. Those who are simply bad, are without hope and the balance changes are not prepared with them being in mind. The balance changes are for those who can play the game at a reasonable level and don't let their own fundamental mistakes shadow their entire gameplay (i.e getting supply blocked all time)
I'm not changing my argument at all. The argument is the same. Ladder maps are created with taking many things in considerations. One of them, is having control. It seems to me that the Blizzard have learnt their lesson from WC3, since they are actually making changes to it.
If they can play the game at reasonable level, I don't see how there could be something balanced for Pros but imbalanced for "reasonable casuals".
Also GSL maps are constantly reevaluated for balance, where as Blizzard seems to design maps on what they think is fun. Map 1-3 is definitely step in the right direction; HOWEVER, there are still fundamental flaws in these maps that GSL maps have as basic requirement.
There are positional imbalances. This would be unacceptable by most tournament organizers as it gives inherent advantage for spawning at certain location.
There are huge variability in distance depending on spawn points. Now, I've only tried the map against AI, but it seems like there is no spawn lock like in Shakuras Plateau. Meaning just like metalopolis, you can either be in closest rush distance possible out of the map pool, or farthest distance. This is just a bad design, putting outcome of the game flow on a dice roll. If you check GSL 4 player maps, variability in rush distances are not as huge as blizzard maps.
Ramp that doesn't face natural expo. This means against any FE builds, you can easily walk into their main. In fact, forge FE is impossible on most of these maps. Why take away a style of play?
Also, why do you believe that its necessary for blizzard to have absolute control over the ladder?
I feel like a parrot saying the same thing every post. Because it is the ladder!!!! Everyone plays in ladder not just pros. The maps should cover all of that. New maps create new problems, which can be solved at pro-level, but not all ladder players can do that. A huge majority of people on ladder probably doesn't know what teamliquid or who day9 is. The game is really new, the strategies are not standardized and new playstyles are being created almost every day, there might be things that cause problem for the normal folk and not for the pros. Not everyone that can play reasonable plays great. They may not get supply blocked and always spend their money, but they just might not know about micro or the overall strategy at all.
I dont think this would matter more that it already does, doesn´t ladder disign avoids you from too skilled people? So you are playing people your skill mainly, witch can not really abuse you from theorical map imbalance more than you can abuse them.
Blizzard have to put some good maps out there, I mean, Neo Enigma, Testbug, GSTL maps, they are great maps wich convince most of the people who give them a shot, there is people who like rushing everygame, but that doesn´t mean that all maps have to been small.
Blizzard may want to have control, but I seriously doubt the community is going to give it to them, players are going to get tired at some point.
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