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On February 05 2011 07:49 Nayl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 07:39 Bleak wrote:On February 05 2011 07:33 Nayl wrote:On February 05 2011 07:26 Bleak wrote:On February 05 2011 07:18 Nayl wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 05 2011 07:10 Bleak wrote:
In Blizzcon, devs have talked about maps and they have stated that tournaments should use their own maps. There is a freaking game editor for this that people use to create a ton of maps.
It is not right to compare GSL maps to the ladder maps. Only pros take part in the GSL. Ladder is played by everyone. They need to account for the wide range of players, while trying to create maps that can allow fun games to be played, while also trying to cater the pros that practice using the ladder and also those who bought the game and just want to enjoy it in their own way without trying to be pros and don't know about how great BW was or don't care a thing about it. With those in mind, they're trying to do design some maps to the best of they can with their own thinking. But, people always find something to whine, you cannot satisfy anyone and the devs are aware of that, so that is why they don't take these pointless, childish complaining too seriously. No map is perfect, and so these maps are not, but they are just trying to make changes to the current pool.
Asking the Blizzard to get the GSL maps into the ladder is ridiculous. The world is just not composed of Pros, and people who try to put themselves in their shoes while playing the game just because they want to feel "cool" like them while trying to pull off the things they do on those "ideal" maps. Maybe some people don't want too big maps in ladder? Maybe they want variety? Maybe they don't share the same philosophy regarding how the game should be played out? Why is ICCUP map making team, or just Kespa or whoever that made the maps in past have the absolute perfect tip-top uber ideas about how a map should be? Why are some people, so blindly adhering to the thought that these people should know the best and they are right 100% ? Perhaps they do actually, but why should the Blizzard dev team, the guys that made the game and play the game too, have to know less than these organizations? They freaking made the game. Do you think they are that stupid? Perhaps they think harrassment from cliff is a legitimate strategy and should be used? Perhaps there are narrow spots in the map because they just don't want you to engage there and think if you are out of position, you should be punished? Perhaps they don't agree to your point of view? Ever thought of that?
Yes, there are bad maps. Delta Quadrant,Blistering Sands, Steppes of War, Jungle Basin or any map with close position spawn possible is downright boring and can drive some people including me, crazy. These maps are just not fun to play for a macro or a long game at all. But perhaps those maps are to be played in a quick fashion, with a more aggressive mindset. I know that this isn't fun in pro-scene at all, because you just want to see interesting and long-term play, but that is the point, it is a ladder map! Not for a tournament. The goal is not that. The ladder maps have been used in tournaments so far because there weren't any good maps that the map making teams could create in time. If you oh so want to play in the ICCUP maps, custom games are there, try to find some good practice partners and play the game in your own way. It's not going to be as competitive or thrilling as ladder can be, but the sad truth is that if people could have whatever they want then the human civilization would be wiped out by now.
Again, I want to emphasize this: I'm not trying to say that the Blizz devs know the best, rest don't, or the other way round. It is just the pointless and unnecessary criticism to whatever they are trying to do. It is just childish. You're saying that they should know all because of 12 years of BW Korean Pro-Scene experience. You are comparing pro-scene, with maps designed for pro-play, to the ladder. Apples to oranges. For most people, ladder is only way to practice this game. Also, GSL determines Code A qualifier through the ladder. But when the ladder is different from tournament, its very difficult to practice for a tournament. According to your logic, Blizzard should either make a seperate league with different map pool for Pros and casuals, (which almost doesn't make as much sense as having different map pool for ladder and tourneys) or even better, allow organizations to create a private ladder with custom map pool. Also There is not a single map in the current ladder pool that remotely resembles GSL-esque map. Why not even try to make ONE MAP like it? Pros should find people that can play together in custom games on the GSL maps. Most of them already are in teams, and even those who aren't just play with other people. Ladder can be used to train against cheese, or all-ins maybe? And the question about why not try to make one map like it, perhaps they don't want too big maps like the GSL ones? How do the great BW pros practice? Do they just roll everyone in iccup? I'm sure they play each other as now people can do in custom games. If the guy got through the ladder maps and a shitton of games to qualify for GSL, they should just prepare to put the effort to learn the new maps. Otherwise, how do you expect the tournaments to use new maps? In your logic, only ladder maps should be used because they have been here for a year, and adapting to the new maps will be too hard for them since they only practice on ladder. If they are pros, they should show how much pro they are and learn the new maps and deal with it. How about semi-pro players who aren't on a team? New players who wants to play competitively? Why create such artificial barrier of entry? Also why is it so painful in trying out GSL-esque maps? Maybe even casuals will enjoy this kind of map once in a while. Isn't that the point of PTR? The great Foreigner BW pros practiced using Iccup, because ICCup had 99% of the maps used by all tournaments around the world available. It's easy way to practice, you don't have to wait for your teammate to log on, you can just get in and play. Also, When you have to ladder to qualify, It's pretty difficult to watch replays of a pro to learn anything because they are on a completely different map pool with completely different map making philosophy. At some point you need to draw the distance between the two. Ladder is ladder, tournament is tournament. You can choose your opponent in ICCUP, so maps will matter there. In ladder you just click the button and play someone in your region. Therefore it is important to draw the distinction. Yes, some players might enjoy the map. But some won't. It needs to be taken into account, even though there is an option to downvote the maps. The fact is that, the new maps will create new problems for the game. At the pro level, they can just find a way to deal with it and the game will open up to a different playstyle. What about the people in ladder? It is just too much work to balance the game around that. Again I repeat, I'm not the one trying to make money playing a video game, if they love what they're doing and committed to it, they should just find a way to do it. It is their job. Well then they should have at least the option of pro maps available shouldn't they? Do you really think people enjoy playing on Delta/Stepps? I can say this about the current map pool. Does blizzard care about that? Well, currently, no. By the way, GSL maps get constantly updated over and over, in order to make the map as balanced as possible. Gom has also been dismissing some maps due to issues with it, and they are being very careful when picking from these maps. Again, do blizzard do this? No. I honestly don't think they have enough man power to commit to this kind of details, yet they refuse to use community driven map, or at least adopt their philosophy. Instead, they add maps for the sake of adding maps. Earlier in the thread mentioned Test map 5 was shown at Blizzcon, and its actually in the blizzard custom map pool, its named New Antioch. You cannot honestly say current ladder map pool Blizzard is keeping because current style seems fun for the casuals. Dustin browder himself even said 2 rax pressure is "garbage". And what do Casuals usually cry about? That this game is too much about "rushes".
A map that is not made by the game creators will cause more trouble to them because they do not have the control over it, they haven't been involved in its creation, therefore they aren't comfortable with using them in the ladder. They want to have the control because they are in charge of game balance. These issues will be fixed at pro-level, but at the ladder level, the control is important to balance the game. For this reason, the community made maps will most likely never be seen in the ladder map pool and the reason is not just ignorance or not caring enough, but this simple fact: Control.
If someone finds a crazy build where they can get to 200/200 in no time with super aggresive expand style all over the big map and go and 1-a the opponent, the pro scene will find a way to beat it. Use the same map in ladder, see what happens.
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On February 05 2011 08:05 Bleak wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 07:49 Nayl wrote:On February 05 2011 07:39 Bleak wrote:On February 05 2011 07:33 Nayl wrote:On February 05 2011 07:26 Bleak wrote:On February 05 2011 07:18 Nayl wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 05 2011 07:10 Bleak wrote:
In Blizzcon, devs have talked about maps and they have stated that tournaments should use their own maps. There is a freaking game editor for this that people use to create a ton of maps.
It is not right to compare GSL maps to the ladder maps. Only pros take part in the GSL. Ladder is played by everyone. They need to account for the wide range of players, while trying to create maps that can allow fun games to be played, while also trying to cater the pros that practice using the ladder and also those who bought the game and just want to enjoy it in their own way without trying to be pros and don't know about how great BW was or don't care a thing about it. With those in mind, they're trying to do design some maps to the best of they can with their own thinking. But, people always find something to whine, you cannot satisfy anyone and the devs are aware of that, so that is why they don't take these pointless, childish complaining too seriously. No map is perfect, and so these maps are not, but they are just trying to make changes to the current pool.
Asking the Blizzard to get the GSL maps into the ladder is ridiculous. The world is just not composed of Pros, and people who try to put themselves in their shoes while playing the game just because they want to feel "cool" like them while trying to pull off the things they do on those "ideal" maps. Maybe some people don't want too big maps in ladder? Maybe they want variety? Maybe they don't share the same philosophy regarding how the game should be played out? Why is ICCUP map making team, or just Kespa or whoever that made the maps in past have the absolute perfect tip-top uber ideas about how a map should be? Why are some people, so blindly adhering to the thought that these people should know the best and they are right 100% ? Perhaps they do actually, but why should the Blizzard dev team, the guys that made the game and play the game too, have to know less than these organizations? They freaking made the game. Do you think they are that stupid? Perhaps they think harrassment from cliff is a legitimate strategy and should be used? Perhaps there are narrow spots in the map because they just don't want you to engage there and think if you are out of position, you should be punished? Perhaps they don't agree to your point of view? Ever thought of that?
Yes, there are bad maps. Delta Quadrant,Blistering Sands, Steppes of War, Jungle Basin or any map with close position spawn possible is downright boring and can drive some people including me, crazy. These maps are just not fun to play for a macro or a long game at all. But perhaps those maps are to be played in a quick fashion, with a more aggressive mindset. I know that this isn't fun in pro-scene at all, because you just want to see interesting and long-term play, but that is the point, it is a ladder map! Not for a tournament. The goal is not that. The ladder maps have been used in tournaments so far because there weren't any good maps that the map making teams could create in time. If you oh so want to play in the ICCUP maps, custom games are there, try to find some good practice partners and play the game in your own way. It's not going to be as competitive or thrilling as ladder can be, but the sad truth is that if people could have whatever they want then the human civilization would be wiped out by now.
Again, I want to emphasize this: I'm not trying to say that the Blizz devs know the best, rest don't, or the other way round. It is just the pointless and unnecessary criticism to whatever they are trying to do. It is just childish. You're saying that they should know all because of 12 years of BW Korean Pro-Scene experience. You are comparing pro-scene, with maps designed for pro-play, to the ladder. Apples to oranges. For most people, ladder is only way to practice this game. Also, GSL determines Code A qualifier through the ladder. But when the ladder is different from tournament, its very difficult to practice for a tournament. According to your logic, Blizzard should either make a seperate league with different map pool for Pros and casuals, (which almost doesn't make as much sense as having different map pool for ladder and tourneys) or even better, allow organizations to create a private ladder with custom map pool. Also There is not a single map in the current ladder pool that remotely resembles GSL-esque map. Why not even try to make ONE MAP like it? Pros should find people that can play together in custom games on the GSL maps. Most of them already are in teams, and even those who aren't just play with other people. Ladder can be used to train against cheese, or all-ins maybe? And the question about why not try to make one map like it, perhaps they don't want too big maps like the GSL ones? How do the great BW pros practice? Do they just roll everyone in iccup? I'm sure they play each other as now people can do in custom games. If the guy got through the ladder maps and a shitton of games to qualify for GSL, they should just prepare to put the effort to learn the new maps. Otherwise, how do you expect the tournaments to use new maps? In your logic, only ladder maps should be used because they have been here for a year, and adapting to the new maps will be too hard for them since they only practice on ladder. If they are pros, they should show how much pro they are and learn the new maps and deal with it. How about semi-pro players who aren't on a team? New players who wants to play competitively? Why create such artificial barrier of entry? Also why is it so painful in trying out GSL-esque maps? Maybe even casuals will enjoy this kind of map once in a while. Isn't that the point of PTR? The great Foreigner BW pros practiced using Iccup, because ICCup had 99% of the maps used by all tournaments around the world available. It's easy way to practice, you don't have to wait for your teammate to log on, you can just get in and play. Also, When you have to ladder to qualify, It's pretty difficult to watch replays of a pro to learn anything because they are on a completely different map pool with completely different map making philosophy. At some point you need to draw the distance between the two. Ladder is ladder, tournament is tournament. You can choose your opponent in ICCUP, so maps will matter there. In ladder you just click the button and play someone in your region. Therefore it is important to draw the distinction. Yes, some players might enjoy the map. But some won't. It needs to be taken into account, even though there is an option to downvote the maps. The fact is that, the new maps will create new problems for the game. At the pro level, they can just find a way to deal with it and the game will open up to a different playstyle. What about the people in ladder? It is just too much work to balance the game around that. Again I repeat, I'm not the one trying to make money playing a video game, if they love what they're doing and committed to it, they should just find a way to do it. It is their job. Well then they should have at least the option of pro maps available shouldn't they? Do you really think people enjoy playing on Delta/Stepps? I can say this some players might enjoy the map. But some won't. about the current map pool. Does blizzard care about that? Well, currently, no. By the way, GSL maps get constantly updated over and over, in order to make the map as balanced as possible. Gom has also been dismissing some maps due to issues with it, and they are being very careful when picking from these maps. Again, do blizzard do this? No. I honestly don't think they have enough man power to commit to this kind of details, yet they refuse to use community driven map, or at least adopt their philosophy. Instead, they add maps for the sake of adding maps. Earlier in the thread mentioned Test map 5 was shown at Blizzcon, and its actually in the blizzard custom map pool, its named New Antioch. You cannot honestly say current ladder map pool Blizzard is keeping because current style seems fun for the casuals. Dustin browder himself even said 2 rax pressure is "garbage". And what do Casuals usually cry about? That this game is too much about "rushes". A map that is not made by the game creators will cause more trouble to them because they do not have the control over it, they haven't been involved in its creation, therefore they aren't comfortable with using them in the ladder. They want to have the control because they are in charge of game balance. These issues will be fixed at pro-level, but at the ladder level, the control is important to balance the game. For this reason, the community made maps will most likely never be seen in the ladder map pool and the reason is not just ignorance or not caring enough, but this simple fact: Control.
WC3 example alone shows Blizzard "control" is not a good thing. Blizzard never updated ladder maps ever, and look what happened. They used same bloody maps for years.
Anyone who actually played BW would agree that the abyss was and is MUCH better option than battle.net for learning melee games.
It is good that they are at least trying to add new maps. BUT, they don't seem to have enough man power to handle this "control", yet they want to hang onto it for the sake of controlling.
And you keep changing your argument, sighs.
If someone finds a crazy build where they can get to 200/200 in no time with super aggresive expand style all over the big map and go and 1-a the opponent, the pro scene will find a way to beat it. Use the same map in ladder, see what happens.
Are you suggesting that Blizzard should balance the game for Casuals too?
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All I can say is that I am very happy I didn't throw in the towel on Zerg macro play... These new maps are going to have T and P scrambleing when their 2Rax 4Gate pushes arn't auto wins. I'm a relatively low level player (gold league) and am so tired of the constant cheese, these maps are really going to make things more balanced for zerg.
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On February 05 2011 08:10 Nayl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 08:05 Bleak wrote:On February 05 2011 07:49 Nayl wrote:On February 05 2011 07:39 Bleak wrote:On February 05 2011 07:33 Nayl wrote:On February 05 2011 07:26 Bleak wrote:On February 05 2011 07:18 Nayl wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 05 2011 07:10 Bleak wrote:
In Blizzcon, devs have talked about maps and they have stated that tournaments should use their own maps. There is a freaking game editor for this that people use to create a ton of maps.
It is not right to compare GSL maps to the ladder maps. Only pros take part in the GSL. Ladder is played by everyone. They need to account for the wide range of players, while trying to create maps that can allow fun games to be played, while also trying to cater the pros that practice using the ladder and also those who bought the game and just want to enjoy it in their own way without trying to be pros and don't know about how great BW was or don't care a thing about it. With those in mind, they're trying to do design some maps to the best of they can with their own thinking. But, people always find something to whine, you cannot satisfy anyone and the devs are aware of that, so that is why they don't take these pointless, childish complaining too seriously. No map is perfect, and so these maps are not, but they are just trying to make changes to the current pool.
Asking the Blizzard to get the GSL maps into the ladder is ridiculous. The world is just not composed of Pros, and people who try to put themselves in their shoes while playing the game just because they want to feel "cool" like them while trying to pull off the things they do on those "ideal" maps. Maybe some people don't want too big maps in ladder? Maybe they want variety? Maybe they don't share the same philosophy regarding how the game should be played out? Why is ICCUP map making team, or just Kespa or whoever that made the maps in past have the absolute perfect tip-top uber ideas about how a map should be? Why are some people, so blindly adhering to the thought that these people should know the best and they are right 100% ? Perhaps they do actually, but why should the Blizzard dev team, the guys that made the game and play the game too, have to know less than these organizations? They freaking made the game. Do you think they are that stupid? Perhaps they think harrassment from cliff is a legitimate strategy and should be used? Perhaps there are narrow spots in the map because they just don't want you to engage there and think if you are out of position, you should be punished? Perhaps they don't agree to your point of view? Ever thought of that?
Yes, there are bad maps. Delta Quadrant,Blistering Sands, Steppes of War, Jungle Basin or any map with close position spawn possible is downright boring and can drive some people including me, crazy. These maps are just not fun to play for a macro or a long game at all. But perhaps those maps are to be played in a quick fashion, with a more aggressive mindset. I know that this isn't fun in pro-scene at all, because you just want to see interesting and long-term play, but that is the point, it is a ladder map! Not for a tournament. The goal is not that. The ladder maps have been used in tournaments so far because there weren't any good maps that the map making teams could create in time. If you oh so want to play in the ICCUP maps, custom games are there, try to find some good practice partners and play the game in your own way. It's not going to be as competitive or thrilling as ladder can be, but the sad truth is that if people could have whatever they want then the human civilization would be wiped out by now.
Again, I want to emphasize this: I'm not trying to say that the Blizz devs know the best, rest don't, or the other way round. It is just the pointless and unnecessary criticism to whatever they are trying to do. It is just childish. You're saying that they should know all because of 12 years of BW Korean Pro-Scene experience. You are comparing pro-scene, with maps designed for pro-play, to the ladder. Apples to oranges. For most people, ladder is only way to practice this game. Also, GSL determines Code A qualifier through the ladder. But when the ladder is different from tournament, its very difficult to practice for a tournament. According to your logic, Blizzard should either make a seperate league with different map pool for Pros and casuals, (which almost doesn't make as much sense as having different map pool for ladder and tourneys) or even better, allow organizations to create a private ladder with custom map pool. Also There is not a single map in the current ladder pool that remotely resembles GSL-esque map. Why not even try to make ONE MAP like it? Pros should find people that can play together in custom games on the GSL maps. Most of them already are in teams, and even those who aren't just play with other people. Ladder can be used to train against cheese, or all-ins maybe? And the question about why not try to make one map like it, perhaps they don't want too big maps like the GSL ones? How do the great BW pros practice? Do they just roll everyone in iccup? I'm sure they play each other as now people can do in custom games. If the guy got through the ladder maps and a shitton of games to qualify for GSL, they should just prepare to put the effort to learn the new maps. Otherwise, how do you expect the tournaments to use new maps? In your logic, only ladder maps should be used because they have been here for a year, and adapting to the new maps will be too hard for them since they only practice on ladder. If they are pros, they should show how much pro they are and learn the new maps and deal with it. How about semi-pro players who aren't on a team? New players who wants to play competitively? Why create such artificial barrier of entry? Also why is it so painful in trying out GSL-esque maps? Maybe even casuals will enjoy this kind of map once in a while. Isn't that the point of PTR? The great Foreigner BW pros practiced using Iccup, because ICCup had 99% of the maps used by all tournaments around the world available. It's easy way to practice, you don't have to wait for your teammate to log on, you can just get in and play. Also, When you have to ladder to qualify, It's pretty difficult to watch replays of a pro to learn anything because they are on a completely different map pool with completely different map making philosophy. At some point you need to draw the distance between the two. Ladder is ladder, tournament is tournament. You can choose your opponent in ICCUP, so maps will matter there. In ladder you just click the button and play someone in your region. Therefore it is important to draw the distinction. Yes, some players might enjoy the map. But some won't. It needs to be taken into account, even though there is an option to downvote the maps. The fact is that, the new maps will create new problems for the game. At the pro level, they can just find a way to deal with it and the game will open up to a different playstyle. What about the people in ladder? It is just too much work to balance the game around that. Again I repeat, I'm not the one trying to make money playing a video game, if they love what they're doing and committed to it, they should just find a way to do it. It is their job. Well then they should have at least the option of pro maps available shouldn't they? Do you really think people enjoy playing on Delta/Stepps? I can say this some players might enjoy the map. But some won't. about the current map pool. Does blizzard care about that? Well, currently, no. By the way, GSL maps get constantly updated over and over, in order to make the map as balanced as possible. Gom has also been dismissing some maps due to issues with it, and they are being very careful when picking from these maps. Again, do blizzard do this? No. I honestly don't think they have enough man power to commit to this kind of details, yet they refuse to use community driven map, or at least adopt their philosophy. Instead, they add maps for the sake of adding maps. Earlier in the thread mentioned Test map 5 was shown at Blizzcon, and its actually in the blizzard custom map pool, its named New Antioch. You cannot honestly say current ladder map pool Blizzard is keeping because current style seems fun for the casuals. Dustin browder himself even said 2 rax pressure is "garbage". And what do Casuals usually cry about? That this game is too much about "rushes". A map that is not made by the game creators will cause more trouble to them because they do not have the control over it, they haven't been involved in its creation, therefore they aren't comfortable with using them in the ladder. They want to have the control because they are in charge of game balance. These issues will be fixed at pro-level, but at the ladder level, the control is important to balance the game. For this reason, the community made maps will most likely never be seen in the ladder map pool and the reason is not just ignorance or not caring enough, but this simple fact: Control. WC3 example alone shows Blizzard "control" is not a good thing. Blizzard never updated ladder maps ever, and look what happened. They used same bloody maps for years. Anyone who actually played BW would agree that the abyss was and is MUCH better option than battle.net for learning melee games. It is good that they are at least trying to add new maps. BUT, they don't seem to have enough man power to handle this "control", yet they want to hang onto it for the sake of controlling. And you keep changing your argument, sighs. Show nested quote +If someone finds a crazy build where they can get to 200/200 in no time with super aggresive expand style all over the big map and go and 1-a the opponent, the pro scene will find a way to beat it. Use the same map in ladder, see what happens. Are you suggesting that Blizzard should balance the game for Casuals too?
Oh I forgot, they shouldn't. The game should be reserved for tip-top elitists who know everything about not only SC2 but also BW and its entire history and the rest should get packed and leave. If you want the game to be opened to masses, this is not the attitude you want to be in.
There is a difference between bad casuals, and those who just want to enjoy the game. Those who are simply bad, are without hope and the balance changes are not prepared with them being in mind. The balance changes are for those who can play the game at a reasonable level and don't let their own fundamental mistakes shadow their entire gameplay (i.e getting supply blocked all time)
I'm not changing my argument at all. The argument is the same. Ladder maps are created with taking many things in considerations. One of them, is having control. It seems to me that the Blizzard have learnt their lesson from WC3, since they are actually making changes to it.
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The choke felt much wider, but the difference turned out to be only two extra squares:
Lost Temple
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/2LXMb.jpg)
TestMap1
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/4k7cW.jpg)
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On February 05 2011 08:16 Bleak wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 08:10 Nayl wrote:On February 05 2011 08:05 Bleak wrote:On February 05 2011 07:49 Nayl wrote:On February 05 2011 07:39 Bleak wrote:On February 05 2011 07:33 Nayl wrote:On February 05 2011 07:26 Bleak wrote:On February 05 2011 07:18 Nayl wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 05 2011 07:10 Bleak wrote:
In Blizzcon, devs have talked about maps and they have stated that tournaments should use their own maps. There is a freaking game editor for this that people use to create a ton of maps.
It is not right to compare GSL maps to the ladder maps. Only pros take part in the GSL. Ladder is played by everyone. They need to account for the wide range of players, while trying to create maps that can allow fun games to be played, while also trying to cater the pros that practice using the ladder and also those who bought the game and just want to enjoy it in their own way without trying to be pros and don't know about how great BW was or don't care a thing about it. With those in mind, they're trying to do design some maps to the best of they can with their own thinking. But, people always find something to whine, you cannot satisfy anyone and the devs are aware of that, so that is why they don't take these pointless, childish complaining too seriously. No map is perfect, and so these maps are not, but they are just trying to make changes to the current pool.
Asking the Blizzard to get the GSL maps into the ladder is ridiculous. The world is just not composed of Pros, and people who try to put themselves in their shoes while playing the game just because they want to feel "cool" like them while trying to pull off the things they do on those "ideal" maps. Maybe some people don't want too big maps in ladder? Maybe they want variety? Maybe they don't share the same philosophy regarding how the game should be played out? Why is ICCUP map making team, or just Kespa or whoever that made the maps in past have the absolute perfect tip-top uber ideas about how a map should be? Why are some people, so blindly adhering to the thought that these people should know the best and they are right 100% ? Perhaps they do actually, but why should the Blizzard dev team, the guys that made the game and play the game too, have to know less than these organizations? They freaking made the game. Do you think they are that stupid? Perhaps they think harrassment from cliff is a legitimate strategy and should be used? Perhaps there are narrow spots in the map because they just don't want you to engage there and think if you are out of position, you should be punished? Perhaps they don't agree to your point of view? Ever thought of that?
Yes, there are bad maps. Delta Quadrant,Blistering Sands, Steppes of War, Jungle Basin or any map with close position spawn possible is downright boring and can drive some people including me, crazy. These maps are just not fun to play for a macro or a long game at all. But perhaps those maps are to be played in a quick fashion, with a more aggressive mindset. I know that this isn't fun in pro-scene at all, because you just want to see interesting and long-term play, but that is the point, it is a ladder map! Not for a tournament. The goal is not that. The ladder maps have been used in tournaments so far because there weren't any good maps that the map making teams could create in time. If you oh so want to play in the ICCUP maps, custom games are there, try to find some good practice partners and play the game in your own way. It's not going to be as competitive or thrilling as ladder can be, but the sad truth is that if people could have whatever they want then the human civilization would be wiped out by now.
Again, I want to emphasize this: I'm not trying to say that the Blizz devs know the best, rest don't, or the other way round. It is just the pointless and unnecessary criticism to whatever they are trying to do. It is just childish. You're saying that they should know all because of 12 years of BW Korean Pro-Scene experience. You are comparing pro-scene, with maps designed for pro-play, to the ladder. Apples to oranges. For most people, ladder is only way to practice this game. Also, GSL determines Code A qualifier through the ladder. But when the ladder is different from tournament, its very difficult to practice for a tournament. According to your logic, Blizzard should either make a seperate league with different map pool for Pros and casuals, (which almost doesn't make as much sense as having different map pool for ladder and tourneys) or even better, allow organizations to create a private ladder with custom map pool. Also There is not a single map in the current ladder pool that remotely resembles GSL-esque map. Why not even try to make ONE MAP like it? Pros should find people that can play together in custom games on the GSL maps. Most of them already are in teams, and even those who aren't just play with other people. Ladder can be used to train against cheese, or all-ins maybe? And the question about why not try to make one map like it, perhaps they don't want too big maps like the GSL ones? How do the great BW pros practice? Do they just roll everyone in iccup? I'm sure they play each other as now people can do in custom games. If the guy got through the ladder maps and a shitton of games to qualify for GSL, they should just prepare to put the effort to learn the new maps. Otherwise, how do you expect the tournaments to use new maps? In your logic, only ladder maps should be used because they have been here for a year, and adapting to the new maps will be too hard for them since they only practice on ladder. If they are pros, they should show how much pro they are and learn the new maps and deal with it. How about semi-pro players who aren't on a team? New players who wants to play competitively? Why create such artificial barrier of entry? Also why is it so painful in trying out GSL-esque maps? Maybe even casuals will enjoy this kind of map once in a while. Isn't that the point of PTR? The great Foreigner BW pros practiced using Iccup, because ICCup had 99% of the maps used by all tournaments around the world available. It's easy way to practice, you don't have to wait for your teammate to log on, you can just get in and play. Also, When you have to ladder to qualify, It's pretty difficult to watch replays of a pro to learn anything because they are on a completely different map pool with completely different map making philosophy. At some point you need to draw the distance between the two. Ladder is ladder, tournament is tournament. You can choose your opponent in ICCUP, so maps will matter there. In ladder you just click the button and play someone in your region. Therefore it is important to draw the distinction. Yes, some players might enjoy the map. But some won't. It needs to be taken into account, even though there is an option to downvote the maps. The fact is that, the new maps will create new problems for the game. At the pro level, they can just find a way to deal with it and the game will open up to a different playstyle. What about the people in ladder? It is just too much work to balance the game around that. Again I repeat, I'm not the one trying to make money playing a video game, if they love what they're doing and committed to it, they should just find a way to do it. It is their job. Well then they should have at least the option of pro maps available shouldn't they? Do you really think people enjoy playing on Delta/Stepps? I can say this some players might enjoy the map. But some won't. about the current map pool. Does blizzard care about that? Well, currently, no. By the way, GSL maps get constantly updated over and over, in order to make the map as balanced as possible. Gom has also been dismissing some maps due to issues with it, and they are being very careful when picking from these maps. Again, do blizzard do this? No. I honestly don't think they have enough man power to commit to this kind of details, yet they refuse to use community driven map, or at least adopt their philosophy. Instead, they add maps for the sake of adding maps. Earlier in the thread mentioned Test map 5 was shown at Blizzcon, and its actually in the blizzard custom map pool, its named New Antioch. You cannot honestly say current ladder map pool Blizzard is keeping because current style seems fun for the casuals. Dustin browder himself even said 2 rax pressure is "garbage". And what do Casuals usually cry about? That this game is too much about "rushes". A map that is not made by the game creators will cause more trouble to them because they do not have the control over it, they haven't been involved in its creation, therefore they aren't comfortable with using them in the ladder. They want to have the control because they are in charge of game balance. These issues will be fixed at pro-level, but at the ladder level, the control is important to balance the game. For this reason, the community made maps will most likely never be seen in the ladder map pool and the reason is not just ignorance or not caring enough, but this simple fact: Control. WC3 example alone shows Blizzard "control" is not a good thing. Blizzard never updated ladder maps ever, and look what happened. They used same bloody maps for years. Anyone who actually played BW would agree that the abyss was and is MUCH better option than battle.net for learning melee games. It is good that they are at least trying to add new maps. BUT, they don't seem to have enough man power to handle this "control", yet they want to hang onto it for the sake of controlling. And you keep changing your argument, sighs. If someone finds a crazy build where they can get to 200/200 in no time with super aggresive expand style all over the big map and go and 1-a the opponent, the pro scene will find a way to beat it. Use the same map in ladder, see what happens. Are you suggesting that Blizzard should balance the game for Casuals too? Oh I forgot, they shouldn't. Because they don't play the game. The game should be reserved for tip-top elitists who know everything about not only SC2 but also BW and its entire history and the rest should get packed and leave. If you want the game to be opened to masses, this is not the attitude you want to be in. There is a difference between bad casuals, and those who just want to enjoy the game. Those who are simply bad, are without hope and the balance changes are not prepared with them being in mind. The balance changes are for those who can play the game at a reasonable level and don't let their own fundamental mistakes shadow their entire gameplay (i.e getting supply blocked all time) I'm not changing my argument at all. The argument is the same. Ladder maps are created with taking many things in considerations. One of them, is having control. It seems to me that the Blizzard have learnt their lesson from WC3, since they are actually making changes to it.
If they can play the game at reasonable level, I don't see how there could be something balanced for Pros but imbalanced for "reasonable casuals".
Also GSL maps are constantly reevaluated for balance, where as Blizzard seems to design maps on what they think is fun. Map 1-3 is definitely step in the right direction; HOWEVER, there are still fundamental flaws in these maps that GSL maps have as basic requirement.
There are positional imbalances. This would be unacceptable by most tournament organizers as it gives inherent advantage for spawning at certain location.
There are huge variability in distance depending on spawn points. Now, I've only tried the map against AI, but it seems like there is no spawn lock like in Shakuras Plateau. Meaning just like metalopolis, you can either be in closest rush distance possible out of the map pool, or farthest distance. This is just a bad design, putting outcome of the game flow on a dice roll. If you check GSL 4 player maps, variability in rush distances are not as huge as blizzard maps.
Ramp that doesn't face natural expo. This means against any FE builds, you can easily walk into their main. In fact, forge FE is impossible on most of these maps. Why take away a style of play?
Also, why do you believe that its necessary for blizzard to have absolute control over the ladder?
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On February 05 2011 08:32 Nayl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 08:16 Bleak wrote:On February 05 2011 08:10 Nayl wrote:On February 05 2011 08:05 Bleak wrote:On February 05 2011 07:49 Nayl wrote:On February 05 2011 07:39 Bleak wrote:On February 05 2011 07:33 Nayl wrote:On February 05 2011 07:26 Bleak wrote:On February 05 2011 07:18 Nayl wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 05 2011 07:10 Bleak wrote:
In Blizzcon, devs have talked about maps and they have stated that tournaments should use their own maps. There is a freaking game editor for this that people use to create a ton of maps.
It is not right to compare GSL maps to the ladder maps. Only pros take part in the GSL. Ladder is played by everyone. They need to account for the wide range of players, while trying to create maps that can allow fun games to be played, while also trying to cater the pros that practice using the ladder and also those who bought the game and just want to enjoy it in their own way without trying to be pros and don't know about how great BW was or don't care a thing about it. With those in mind, they're trying to do design some maps to the best of they can with their own thinking. But, people always find something to whine, you cannot satisfy anyone and the devs are aware of that, so that is why they don't take these pointless, childish complaining too seriously. No map is perfect, and so these maps are not, but they are just trying to make changes to the current pool.
Asking the Blizzard to get the GSL maps into the ladder is ridiculous. The world is just not composed of Pros, and people who try to put themselves in their shoes while playing the game just because they want to feel "cool" like them while trying to pull off the things they do on those "ideal" maps. Maybe some people don't want too big maps in ladder? Maybe they want variety? Maybe they don't share the same philosophy regarding how the game should be played out? Why is ICCUP map making team, or just Kespa or whoever that made the maps in past have the absolute perfect tip-top uber ideas about how a map should be? Why are some people, so blindly adhering to the thought that these people should know the best and they are right 100% ? Perhaps they do actually, but why should the Blizzard dev team, the guys that made the game and play the game too, have to know less than these organizations? They freaking made the game. Do you think they are that stupid? Perhaps they think harrassment from cliff is a legitimate strategy and should be used? Perhaps there are narrow spots in the map because they just don't want you to engage there and think if you are out of position, you should be punished? Perhaps they don't agree to your point of view? Ever thought of that?
Yes, there are bad maps. Delta Quadrant,Blistering Sands, Steppes of War, Jungle Basin or any map with close position spawn possible is downright boring and can drive some people including me, crazy. These maps are just not fun to play for a macro or a long game at all. But perhaps those maps are to be played in a quick fashion, with a more aggressive mindset. I know that this isn't fun in pro-scene at all, because you just want to see interesting and long-term play, but that is the point, it is a ladder map! Not for a tournament. The goal is not that. The ladder maps have been used in tournaments so far because there weren't any good maps that the map making teams could create in time. If you oh so want to play in the ICCUP maps, custom games are there, try to find some good practice partners and play the game in your own way. It's not going to be as competitive or thrilling as ladder can be, but the sad truth is that if people could have whatever they want then the human civilization would be wiped out by now.
Again, I want to emphasize this: I'm not trying to say that the Blizz devs know the best, rest don't, or the other way round. It is just the pointless and unnecessary criticism to whatever they are trying to do. It is just childish. You're saying that they should know all because of 12 years of BW Korean Pro-Scene experience. You are comparing pro-scene, with maps designed for pro-play, to the ladder. Apples to oranges. For most people, ladder is only way to practice this game. Also, GSL determines Code A qualifier through the ladder. But when the ladder is different from tournament, its very difficult to practice for a tournament. According to your logic, Blizzard should either make a seperate league with different map pool for Pros and casuals, (which almost doesn't make as much sense as having different map pool for ladder and tourneys) or even better, allow organizations to create a private ladder with custom map pool. Also There is not a single map in the current ladder pool that remotely resembles GSL-esque map. Why not even try to make ONE MAP like it? Pros should find people that can play together in custom games on the GSL maps. Most of them already are in teams, and even those who aren't just play with other people. Ladder can be used to train against cheese, or all-ins maybe? And the question about why not try to make one map like it, perhaps they don't want too big maps like the GSL ones? How do the great BW pros practice? Do they just roll everyone in iccup? I'm sure they play each other as now people can do in custom games. If the guy got through the ladder maps and a shitton of games to qualify for GSL, they should just prepare to put the effort to learn the new maps. Otherwise, how do you expect the tournaments to use new maps? In your logic, only ladder maps should be used because they have been here for a year, and adapting to the new maps will be too hard for them since they only practice on ladder. If they are pros, they should show how much pro they are and learn the new maps and deal with it. How about semi-pro players who aren't on a team? New players who wants to play competitively? Why create such artificial barrier of entry? Also why is it so painful in trying out GSL-esque maps? Maybe even casuals will enjoy this kind of map once in a while. Isn't that the point of PTR? The great Foreigner BW pros practiced using Iccup, because ICCup had 99% of the maps used by all tournaments around the world available. It's easy way to practice, you don't have to wait for your teammate to log on, you can just get in and play. Also, When you have to ladder to qualify, It's pretty difficult to watch replays of a pro to learn anything because they are on a completely different map pool with completely different map making philosophy. At some point you need to draw the distance between the two. Ladder is ladder, tournament is tournament. You can choose your opponent in ICCUP, so maps will matter there. In ladder you just click the button and play someone in your region. Therefore it is important to draw the distinction. Yes, some players might enjoy the map. But some won't. It needs to be taken into account, even though there is an option to downvote the maps. The fact is that, the new maps will create new problems for the game. At the pro level, they can just find a way to deal with it and the game will open up to a different playstyle. What about the people in ladder? It is just too much work to balance the game around that. Again I repeat, I'm not the one trying to make money playing a video game, if they love what they're doing and committed to it, they should just find a way to do it. It is their job. Well then they should have at least the option of pro maps available shouldn't they? Do you really think people enjoy playing on Delta/Stepps? I can say this some players might enjoy the map. But some won't. about the current map pool. Does blizzard care about that? Well, currently, no. By the way, GSL maps get constantly updated over and over, in order to make the map as balanced as possible. Gom has also been dismissing some maps due to issues with it, and they are being very careful when picking from these maps. Again, do blizzard do this? No. I honestly don't think they have enough man power to commit to this kind of details, yet they refuse to use community driven map, or at least adopt their philosophy. Instead, they add maps for the sake of adding maps. Earlier in the thread mentioned Test map 5 was shown at Blizzcon, and its actually in the blizzard custom map pool, its named New Antioch. You cannot honestly say current ladder map pool Blizzard is keeping because current style seems fun for the casuals. Dustin browder himself even said 2 rax pressure is "garbage". And what do Casuals usually cry about? That this game is too much about "rushes". A map that is not made by the game creators will cause more trouble to them because they do not have the control over it, they haven't been involved in its creation, therefore they aren't comfortable with using them in the ladder. They want to have the control because they are in charge of game balance. These issues will be fixed at pro-level, but at the ladder level, the control is important to balance the game. For this reason, the community made maps will most likely never be seen in the ladder map pool and the reason is not just ignorance or not caring enough, but this simple fact: Control. WC3 example alone shows Blizzard "control" is not a good thing. Blizzard never updated ladder maps ever, and look what happened. They used same bloody maps for years. Anyone who actually played BW would agree that the abyss was and is MUCH better option than battle.net for learning melee games. It is good that they are at least trying to add new maps. BUT, they don't seem to have enough man power to handle this "control", yet they want to hang onto it for the sake of controlling. And you keep changing your argument, sighs. If someone finds a crazy build where they can get to 200/200 in no time with super aggresive expand style all over the big map and go and 1-a the opponent, the pro scene will find a way to beat it. Use the same map in ladder, see what happens. Are you suggesting that Blizzard should balance the game for Casuals too? Oh I forgot, they shouldn't. Because they don't play the game. The game should be reserved for tip-top elitists who know everything about not only SC2 but also BW and its entire history and the rest should get packed and leave. If you want the game to be opened to masses, this is not the attitude you want to be in. There is a difference between bad casuals, and those who just want to enjoy the game. Those who are simply bad, are without hope and the balance changes are not prepared with them being in mind. The balance changes are for those who can play the game at a reasonable level and don't let their own fundamental mistakes shadow their entire gameplay (i.e getting supply blocked all time) I'm not changing my argument at all. The argument is the same. Ladder maps are created with taking many things in considerations. One of them, is having control. It seems to me that the Blizzard have learnt their lesson from WC3, since they are actually making changes to it. If they can play the game at reasonable level, I don't see how there could be something balanced for Pros but imbalanced for "reasonable casuals". Also GSL maps are constantly reevaluated for balance, where as Blizzard seems to design maps on what they think is fun. Map 1-3 is definitely step in the right direction; HOWEVER, there are still fundamental flaws in these maps that GSL maps have as basic requirement. There are positional imbalances. This would be unacceptable by most tournament organizers as it gives inherent advantage for spawning at certain location. There are huge variability in distance depending on spawn points. Now, I've only tried the map against AI, but it seems like there is no spawn lock like in Shakuras Plateau. Meaning just like metalopolis, you can either be in closest rush distance possible out of the map pool, or farthest distance. This is just a bad design, putting outcome of the game flow on a dice roll. If you check GSL 4 player maps, variability in rush distances are not as huge as blizzard maps. Ramp that doesn't face natural expo. This means against any FE builds, you can easily walk into their main. In fact, forge FE is impossible on most of these maps. Why take away a style of play? Also, why do you believe that its necessary for blizzard to have absolute control over the ladder?
I feel like a parrot saying the same thing every post. Because it is the ladder!!!! Everyone plays in ladder not just pros. The maps should cover all of that. New maps create new problems, which can be solved at pro-level, but not all ladder players can do that. A huge majority of people on ladder probably doesn't know what teamliquid or who day9 is. The game is really new, the strategies are not standardized and new playstyles are being created almost every day, there might be things that cause problem for the normal folk and not for the pros. Not everyone that can play reasonable plays great. They may not get supply blocked and always spend their money, but they just might not know about micro or the overall strategy at all.
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On February 05 2011 08:13 Coven wrote:
All I can say is that I am very happy I didn't throw in the towel on Zerg macro play... These new maps are going to have T and P scrambleing when their 2Rax 4Gate pushes arn't auto wins. I'm a relatively low level player (gold league) and am so tired of the constant cheese, these maps are really going to make things more balanced for zerg.
I'm honestly not convinced that these maps promote long therm play. True, some of the spawn locations are further than the current average, but a lot are also closer... However, the maps seem spesifically designed to make your brain hurt from being on more than 2 bases, with destructable rocks everywhere and hard to defend thirds.
The worst thing about these maps is by far the naturals. How the hell can you hold off a proper 4gate without static defenses (cant cover the ramp and natural at the same time, in fact, cant cover the ramp whatsoever without minimum 1 creep tumor on a couple of the maps), and a ramp that simply begs to be forcefielded on 4/5 maps? I really fail to see why any protoss would even consider another strategy on map 2, 3 and 5...
There are of course a few more poorly designed aspects, such as the rocks in the main on map5. Or on map 2, can you imagine a dropship going from the lowground third, to the ledge, to the main, then back to the ledge, then down to the third, and then up to the main etc? Or trying to actually take a third on map 3?
I really hope they make some changes, or I'm fairly certain I will miss the previous mappool... Even Jungle basin is preferable to some of these...
The only map that looks remotely finished and tested is lost temple 2.0.
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It looked like they just took team maps and edited them to 1 spawns / corner and smaller chokes.
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On February 05 2011 08:40 Bleak wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 08:32 Nayl wrote:On February 05 2011 08:16 Bleak wrote:On February 05 2011 08:10 Nayl wrote:On February 05 2011 08:05 Bleak wrote:On February 05 2011 07:49 Nayl wrote:On February 05 2011 07:39 Bleak wrote:On February 05 2011 07:33 Nayl wrote:On February 05 2011 07:26 Bleak wrote:On February 05 2011 07:18 Nayl wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 05 2011 07:10 Bleak wrote:
In Blizzcon, devs have talked about maps and they have stated that tournaments should use their own maps. There is a freaking game editor for this that people use to create a ton of maps.
It is not right to compare GSL maps to the ladder maps. Only pros take part in the GSL. Ladder is played by everyone. They need to account for the wide range of players, while trying to create maps that can allow fun games to be played, while also trying to cater the pros that practice using the ladder and also those who bought the game and just want to enjoy it in their own way without trying to be pros and don't know about how great BW was or don't care a thing about it. With those in mind, they're trying to do design some maps to the best of they can with their own thinking. But, people always find something to whine, you cannot satisfy anyone and the devs are aware of that, so that is why they don't take these pointless, childish complaining too seriously. No map is perfect, and so these maps are not, but they are just trying to make changes to the current pool.
Asking the Blizzard to get the GSL maps into the ladder is ridiculous. The world is just not composed of Pros, and people who try to put themselves in their shoes while playing the game just because they want to feel "cool" like them while trying to pull off the things they do on those "ideal" maps. Maybe some people don't want too big maps in ladder? Maybe they want variety? Maybe they don't share the same philosophy regarding how the game should be played out? Why is ICCUP map making team, or just Kespa or whoever that made the maps in past have the absolute perfect tip-top uber ideas about how a map should be? Why are some people, so blindly adhering to the thought that these people should know the best and they are right 100% ? Perhaps they do actually, but why should the Blizzard dev team, the guys that made the game and play the game too, have to know less than these organizations? They freaking made the game. Do you think they are that stupid? Perhaps they think harrassment from cliff is a legitimate strategy and should be used? Perhaps there are narrow spots in the map because they just don't want you to engage there and think if you are out of position, you should be punished? Perhaps they don't agree to your point of view? Ever thought of that?
Yes, there are bad maps. Delta Quadrant,Blistering Sands, Steppes of War, Jungle Basin or any map with close position spawn possible is downright boring and can drive some people including me, crazy. These maps are just not fun to play for a macro or a long game at all. But perhaps those maps are to be played in a quick fashion, with a more aggressive mindset. I know that this isn't fun in pro-scene at all, because you just want to see interesting and long-term play, but that is the point, it is a ladder map! Not for a tournament. The goal is not that. The ladder maps have been used in tournaments so far because there weren't any good maps that the map making teams could create in time. If you oh so want to play in the ICCUP maps, custom games are there, try to find some good practice partners and play the game in your own way. It's not going to be as competitive or thrilling as ladder can be, but the sad truth is that if people could have whatever they want then the human civilization would be wiped out by now.
Again, I want to emphasize this: I'm not trying to say that the Blizz devs know the best, rest don't, or the other way round. It is just the pointless and unnecessary criticism to whatever they are trying to do. It is just childish. You're saying that they should know all because of 12 years of BW Korean Pro-Scene experience. You are comparing pro-scene, with maps designed for pro-play, to the ladder. Apples to oranges. For most people, ladder is only way to practice this game. Also, GSL determines Code A qualifier through the ladder. But when the ladder is different from tournament, its very difficult to practice for a tournament. According to your logic, Blizzard should either make a seperate league with different map pool for Pros and casuals, (which almost doesn't make as much sense as having different map pool for ladder and tourneys) or even better, allow organizations to create a private ladder with custom map pool. Also There is not a single map in the current ladder pool that remotely resembles GSL-esque map. Why not even try to make ONE MAP like it? Pros should find people that can play together in custom games on the GSL maps. Most of them already are in teams, and even those who aren't just play with other people. Ladder can be used to train against cheese, or all-ins maybe? And the question about why not try to make one map like it, perhaps they don't want too big maps like the GSL ones? How do the great BW pros practice? Do they just roll everyone in iccup? I'm sure they play each other as now people can do in custom games. If the guy got through the ladder maps and a shitton of games to qualify for GSL, they should just prepare to put the effort to learn the new maps. Otherwise, how do you expect the tournaments to use new maps? In your logic, only ladder maps should be used because they have been here for a year, and adapting to the new maps will be too hard for them since they only practice on ladder. If they are pros, they should show how much pro they are and learn the new maps and deal with it. How about semi-pro players who aren't on a team? New players who wants to play competitively? Why create such artificial barrier of entry? Also why is it so painful in trying out GSL-esque maps? Maybe even casuals will enjoy this kind of map once in a while. Isn't that the point of PTR? The great Foreigner BW pros practiced using Iccup, because ICCup had 99% of the maps used by all tournaments around the world available. It's easy way to practice, you don't have to wait for your teammate to log on, you can just get in and play. Also, When you have to ladder to qualify, It's pretty difficult to watch replays of a pro to learn anything because they are on a completely different map pool with completely different map making philosophy. At some point you need to draw the distance between the two. Ladder is ladder, tournament is tournament. You can choose your opponent in ICCUP, so maps will matter there. In ladder you just click the button and play someone in your region. Therefore it is important to draw the distinction. Yes, some players might enjoy the map. But some won't. It needs to be taken into account, even though there is an option to downvote the maps. The fact is that, the new maps will create new problems for the game. At the pro level, they can just find a way to deal with it and the game will open up to a different playstyle. What about the people in ladder? It is just too much work to balance the game around that. Again I repeat, I'm not the one trying to make money playing a video game, if they love what they're doing and committed to it, they should just find a way to do it. It is their job. Well then they should have at least the option of pro maps available shouldn't they? Do you really think people enjoy playing on Delta/Stepps? I can say this some players might enjoy the map. But some won't. about the current map pool. Does blizzard care about that? Well, currently, no. By the way, GSL maps get constantly updated over and over, in order to make the map as balanced as possible. Gom has also been dismissing some maps due to issues with it, and they are being very careful when picking from these maps. Again, do blizzard do this? No. I honestly don't think they have enough man power to commit to this kind of details, yet they refuse to use community driven map, or at least adopt their philosophy. Instead, they add maps for the sake of adding maps. Earlier in the thread mentioned Test map 5 was shown at Blizzcon, and its actually in the blizzard custom map pool, its named New Antioch. You cannot honestly say current ladder map pool Blizzard is keeping because current style seems fun for the casuals. Dustin browder himself even said 2 rax pressure is "garbage". And what do Casuals usually cry about? That this game is too much about "rushes". A map that is not made by the game creators will cause more trouble to them because they do not have the control over it, they haven't been involved in its creation, therefore they aren't comfortable with using them in the ladder. They want to have the control because they are in charge of game balance. These issues will be fixed at pro-level, but at the ladder level, the control is important to balance the game. For this reason, the community made maps will most likely never be seen in the ladder map pool and the reason is not just ignorance or not caring enough, but this simple fact: Control. WC3 example alone shows Blizzard "control" is not a good thing. Blizzard never updated ladder maps ever, and look what happened. They used same bloody maps for years. Anyone who actually played BW would agree that the abyss was and is MUCH better option than battle.net for learning melee games. It is good that they are at least trying to add new maps. BUT, they don't seem to have enough man power to handle this "control", yet they want to hang onto it for the sake of controlling. And you keep changing your argument, sighs. If someone finds a crazy build where they can get to 200/200 in no time with super aggresive expand style all over the big map and go and 1-a the opponent, the pro scene will find a way to beat it. Use the same map in ladder, see what happens. Are you suggesting that Blizzard should balance the game for Casuals too? Oh I forgot, they shouldn't. Because they don't play the game. The game should be reserved for tip-top elitists who know everything about not only SC2 but also BW and its entire history and the rest should get packed and leave. If you want the game to be opened to masses, this is not the attitude you want to be in. There is a difference between bad casuals, and those who just want to enjoy the game. Those who are simply bad, are without hope and the balance changes are not prepared with them being in mind. The balance changes are for those who can play the game at a reasonable level and don't let their own fundamental mistakes shadow their entire gameplay (i.e getting supply blocked all time) I'm not changing my argument at all. The argument is the same. Ladder maps are created with taking many things in considerations. One of them, is having control. It seems to me that the Blizzard have learnt their lesson from WC3, since they are actually making changes to it. If they can play the game at reasonable level, I don't see how there could be something balanced for Pros but imbalanced for "reasonable casuals". Also GSL maps are constantly reevaluated for balance, where as Blizzard seems to design maps on what they think is fun. Map 1-3 is definitely step in the right direction; HOWEVER, there are still fundamental flaws in these maps that GSL maps have as basic requirement. There are positional imbalances. This would be unacceptable by most tournament organizers as it gives inherent advantage for spawning at certain location. There are huge variability in distance depending on spawn points. Now, I've only tried the map against AI, but it seems like there is no spawn lock like in Shakuras Plateau. Meaning just like metalopolis, you can either be in closest rush distance possible out of the map pool, or farthest distance. This is just a bad design, putting outcome of the game flow on a dice roll. If you check GSL 4 player maps, variability in rush distances are not as huge as blizzard maps. Ramp that doesn't face natural expo. This means against any FE builds, you can easily walk into their main. In fact, forge FE is impossible on most of these maps. Why take away a style of play? Also, why do you believe that its necessary for blizzard to have absolute control over the ladder? I feel like a parrot saying the same thing every post. Because it is the ladder!!!! Everyone plays in ladder not just pros. The maps should cover all of that. New maps create new problems, which can be solved at pro-level, but not all ladder players can do that. A huge majority of people on ladder probably doesn't know what teamliquid or who day9 is. The game is really new, the strategies are not standardized and new playstyles are being created almost every day, there might be things that cause problem for the normal folk and not for the pros. Not everyone that can play reasonable plays great. They may not get supply blocked and always spend their money, but they just might not know about micro or the overall strategy at all.
How in the world sir, would GSL maps, which people spend countless hours on to balance it, create any new weird problems that Blizzard maps wouldn't? When was the last time Blizzard updated their own map other than to fix bugs? Who cares if Stepps of war has positional imbalance and Terrans block the ramp with 2 bunkers.
Also why should Blizzard balance the game for casuals instead of encouraging them to learn new strategy and get better? What they balance for casuals may break the game for Pros, while what they balance for Pros casuals can over come by learning the game. It would be overall horrible policy to balance using feedbacks from mid to low level players because of this.
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I know that nobody cares about 2v2 compared to 1v1, but how come the OP doesn't mention the 4 new 2v2 Test maps at all?
As someone who usually only plays 1v1 when I can fit in 5-10 games but will jump in for lots of quick 2v2s, I'm very happy to see new maps. I abhor about 50% of the current 2v2 map pool. Whether they're better or not, just having something new is quite pleasant.
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It seems to me that a lot of these maps have naturals without a choke point, which make them vulnerable to attacks. I'm guessing Blizzard must've liked what they were seeing in Xel'Naga and Metalopolis, and so those concepts carried over to the new maps.
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On February 05 2011 07:09 Stymie[SC] wrote:
uggghhh. I don't think that Blizzard gets it. For some reason they seem content with the boring 2 base play that their maps are encouraging. They need to get rid of the silly rocks in the back of your main, make it easier to take a third and just have bigger maps in general to create exiting macro games. If they do this, the game will be a lot more fun to play and to watch.
The rocks on for example the new LT are a non issue as far as I'm concerned seeing as they're IN your natural. Meaning you don't have to go out of your way to take them down.
I haven't looked at any of the other maps in any detail though so you could well be right.
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On February 05 2011 08:46 Nayl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 08:40 Bleak wrote:On February 05 2011 08:32 Nayl wrote:On February 05 2011 08:16 Bleak wrote:On February 05 2011 08:10 Nayl wrote:On February 05 2011 08:05 Bleak wrote:On February 05 2011 07:49 Nayl wrote:On February 05 2011 07:39 Bleak wrote:On February 05 2011 07:33 Nayl wrote:On February 05 2011 07:26 Bleak wrote:
[quote]
Pros should find people that can play together in custom games on the GSL maps. Most of them already are in teams, and even those who aren't just play with other people. Ladder can be used to train against cheese, or all-ins maybe? And the question about why not try to make one map like it, perhaps they don't want too big maps like the GSL ones? How do the great BW pros practice? Do they just roll everyone in iccup? I'm sure they play each other as now people can do in custom games.
If the guy got through the ladder maps and a shitton of games to qualify for GSL, they should just prepare to put the effort to learn the new maps. Otherwise, how do you expect the tournaments to use new maps? In your logic, only ladder maps should be used because they have been here for a year, and adapting to the new maps will be too hard for them since they only practice on ladder. If they are pros, they should show how much pro they are and learn the new maps and deal with it.
How about semi-pro players who aren't on a team? New players who wants to play competitively? Why create such artificial barrier of entry? Also why is it so painful in trying out GSL-esque maps? Maybe even casuals will enjoy this kind of map once in a while. Isn't that the point of PTR? The great Foreigner BW pros practiced using Iccup, because ICCup had 99% of the maps used by all tournaments around the world available. It's easy way to practice, you don't have to wait for your teammate to log on, you can just get in and play. Also, When you have to ladder to qualify, It's pretty difficult to watch replays of a pro to learn anything because they are on a completely different map pool with completely different map making philosophy. At some point you need to draw the distance between the two. Ladder is ladder, tournament is tournament. You can choose your opponent in ICCUP, so maps will matter there. In ladder you just click the button and play someone in your region. Therefore it is important to draw the distinction. Yes, some players might enjoy the map. But some won't. It needs to be taken into account, even though there is an option to downvote the maps. The fact is that, the new maps will create new problems for the game. At the pro level, they can just find a way to deal with it and the game will open up to a different playstyle. What about the people in ladder? It is just too much work to balance the game around that. Again I repeat, I'm not the one trying to make money playing a video game, if they love what they're doing and committed to it, they should just find a way to do it. It is their job. Well then they should have at least the option of pro maps available shouldn't they? Do you really think people enjoy playing on Delta/Stepps? I can say this some players might enjoy the map. But some won't. about the current map pool. Does blizzard care about that? Well, currently, no. By the way, GSL maps get constantly updated over and over, in order to make the map as balanced as possible. Gom has also been dismissing some maps due to issues with it, and they are being very careful when picking from these maps. Again, do blizzard do this? No. I honestly don't think they have enough man power to commit to this kind of details, yet they refuse to use community driven map, or at least adopt their philosophy. Instead, they add maps for the sake of adding maps. Earlier in the thread mentioned Test map 5 was shown at Blizzcon, and its actually in the blizzard custom map pool, its named New Antioch. You cannot honestly say current ladder map pool Blizzard is keeping because current style seems fun for the casuals. Dustin browder himself even said 2 rax pressure is "garbage". And what do Casuals usually cry about? That this game is too much about "rushes". A map that is not made by the game creators will cause more trouble to them because they do not have the control over it, they haven't been involved in its creation, therefore they aren't comfortable with using them in the ladder. They want to have the control because they are in charge of game balance. These issues will be fixed at pro-level, but at the ladder level, the control is important to balance the game. For this reason, the community made maps will most likely never be seen in the ladder map pool and the reason is not just ignorance or not caring enough, but this simple fact: Control. WC3 example alone shows Blizzard "control" is not a good thing. Blizzard never updated ladder maps ever, and look what happened. They used same bloody maps for years. Anyone who actually played BW would agree that the abyss was and is MUCH better option than battle.net for learning melee games. It is good that they are at least trying to add new maps. BUT, they don't seem to have enough man power to handle this "control", yet they want to hang onto it for the sake of controlling. And you keep changing your argument, sighs. If someone finds a crazy build where they can get to 200/200 in no time with super aggresive expand style all over the big map and go and 1-a the opponent, the pro scene will find a way to beat it. Use the same map in ladder, see what happens. Are you suggesting that Blizzard should balance the game for Casuals too? Oh I forgot, they shouldn't. Because they don't play the game. The game should be reserved for tip-top elitists who know everything about not only SC2 but also BW and its entire history and the rest should get packed and leave. If you want the game to be opened to masses, this is not the attitude you want to be in. There is a difference between bad casuals, and those who just want to enjoy the game. Those who are simply bad, are without hope and the balance changes are not prepared with them being in mind. The balance changes are for those who can play the game at a reasonable level and don't let their own fundamental mistakes shadow their entire gameplay (i.e getting supply blocked all time) I'm not changing my argument at all. The argument is the same. Ladder maps are created with taking many things in considerations. One of them, is having control. It seems to me that the Blizzard have learnt their lesson from WC3, since they are actually making changes to it. If they can play the game at reasonable level, I don't see how there could be something balanced for Pros but imbalanced for "reasonable casuals". Also GSL maps are constantly reevaluated for balance, where as Blizzard seems to design maps on what they think is fun. Map 1-3 is definitely step in the right direction; HOWEVER, there are still fundamental flaws in these maps that GSL maps have as basic requirement. There are positional imbalances. This would be unacceptable by most tournament organizers as it gives inherent advantage for spawning at certain location. There are huge variability in distance depending on spawn points. Now, I've only tried the map against AI, but it seems like there is no spawn lock like in Shakuras Plateau. Meaning just like metalopolis, you can either be in closest rush distance possible out of the map pool, or farthest distance. This is just a bad design, putting outcome of the game flow on a dice roll. If you check GSL 4 player maps, variability in rush distances are not as huge as blizzard maps. Ramp that doesn't face natural expo. This means against any FE builds, you can easily walk into their main. In fact, forge FE is impossible on most of these maps. Why take away a style of play? Also, why do you believe that its necessary for blizzard to have absolute control over the ladder? I feel like a parrot saying the same thing every post. Because it is the ladder!!!! Everyone plays in ladder not just pros. The maps should cover all of that. New maps create new problems, which can be solved at pro-level, but not all ladder players can do that. A huge majority of people on ladder probably doesn't know what teamliquid or who day9 is. The game is really new, the strategies are not standardized and new playstyles are being created almost every day, there might be things that cause problem for the normal folk and not for the pros. Not everyone that can play reasonable plays great. They may not get supply blocked and always spend their money, but they just might not know about micro or the overall strategy at all. How in the world sir, would GSL maps, which people spend countless hours on to balance it, create any new weird problems that Blizzard maps wouldn't? When was the last time Blizzard updated their own map other than to fix bugs? Who cares if Stepps of war has positional imbalance and Terrans block the ramp with 2 bunkers. Also why should Blizzard balance the game for casuals instead of encouraging them to learn new strategy and get better? What they balance for casuals may break the game for Pros, while what they balance for Pros casuals can over come by learning the game. It would be overall horrible policy to balance using feedbacks from mid to low level players because of this.
I don't enjoy talking to a wall, so I'm going to stop arguing here. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I think the effort is good, maps will show if they can be good or not in time, and we will see. I don't have such a biased opinion that only some people can make the best maps and believe that Blizzard is doing what they can. That's all about it.
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Here is my big tip for Bizzard (and any other I guess) map makers:
Stop putting a big garble of stuff (raised ground, mineral patches, pits, ramps) in the center of these maps. The closest I can think of is Shakuras that actually has an OPEN center.
Always placing the ramps, minerals, holes, or some other nonsense right in the center, usually creates the same old series of 1 or 2 narrow passageways to force armies through.
Having an actual open center, with wider corridors, would allow for better flanks and tactics without having to make the maps ungodly HUGE to change the late game.
Please at least try it on one or 2 maps- otherwise, I think the direction of the maps looks good, with the optional directions for expanding (ie Away or Towards your opponent) like on the NeoLostTemple looking one. Looks pretty good for a lot of reasons but still has the narrow hallway effect on ALL of them.
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Holy shit i want them now!!
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The main reason tournaments need to use the same map as ladder is at the very top level, there are probably dozens of ways to play a map. A single team may get stuck with the idea that a certain build or strategy is the best on a certain map, but that gets hard countered by some other strategy that another team has thought up. That's the nature of a team.
Blizzard does need to move away from the open naturals and backdoor rocks though, because generally, those features heavily favour one race or another simply because of mechanics.
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Canada11370 Posts
On February 05 2011 00:35 Greentellon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 00:23 crappen wrote:
Holy shit this is good, needs to be quoted and bumped. I dont understand the sheep mentality on so many people here, the work blizzard is doing is subpar right now, we need to give them clearer feedback like the quote above me, so that the thickheaded people at blizzard understand what they are doing is in fact wrong. They will never give up on sc2 cause we give them a shitstorm, they will improve. To be quite blunt, that post complains about the existance of backdoors. To be blunt, complaining about those screams to me "I am unable to change my gameplay to account for possibility of two base entrances". Whyyy whyyy why why why why why are backdoors bad? Because you have to defend 2 locations? Only map in existance where attacker may have an advantage in that situation is Blistering Sand. So when I see a player complaining about a backdoor entrance, I see a flashing sign THIS IS A BAD PLAYER WHO CAN'T ADAPT. I'm sorry, but if Blizzard bashing is allowed in this thread, then that thing above is too. Oh, and the Lost Temple 2.0 is actually smallest map of the lot. Testmap 2 has 7 bases each, Metalopolis has 6, lost temple & lost temple 2.0 has 6 each, testmap 3 has 7 bases each, testmap 4 has like 5 for each, but even that is more than 1/2 of the map pool, testmap 5 has 6 bases each. Only complaint about maps being "too small" I could find is maybe the small rush distance, but that is a problem with zerg race in general, not the maps themselves. If zerg can't handle those distances, it's a race problem not map problem, IMO. I'm sorry I'm such a sheep.
It's not a matter of not adapting. Pro's and casuals alike can do that. The question is, does it promote good play? Truth is, Blizzard could make maps with starting positions with no chokes at all. Simply a wide open main. Players would adapt. Early SC players built their own walls around their Nexus/cc to survive the inevitable rush. But it wasn't good for gameplay.
Single chokes allow a player to hold off a larger force in time to build up another force or make a tech switch. Without defensible bases, it simply becomes a matter of who has the bigger army ball. You fall behind, you get left behind with no ability to come back in the game.
The destructible rocks are just annoying. There's really no increased value in gameplay or viewablity from having them block expansion. The Python example is not good- 8 mineral easily mined out by 1 worker and really only to prevent floating cc's to dominate Python. Versus however many zealots and stalkers you need to take out those dang rocks.
Neo-Medusa actually made good use of destructible buildings. It was a second entrance to the base, but because it was 10 buildings stacked, you had to tech to seige tanks, archons or lurkers to take it out. In addition, you couldn't just gallivant into the production facilities (like Blistering Sands), but had to navigate a long ridge that was easily defensible, then a narrow ramp into the main- also defendible . I saw as many doom drops as I did busting through the ridge because for a secondary entrance, it was still pretty defensible with a few tanks, lurkers or cannons.
But I don't see this level of design with Blizzard and I don't think Neo-Medusa could've been designed in the early stages of SCBW. We need to see how more standard maps affect the game before we start designing Neo-Medusa or Troy. The Blizzard features seem to be there for their own sake rather than a specific gameplay idea.
On the other I do like the cliff-less Lost Temple. I remember back in Beta getting destroyed by some early tank-medivac play, abusing those cliffs.
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holy freaking rocks, man. blizzard's crush on destructible rocks has passed beyond the innocuous stage and is now ruining maps.
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On February 05 2011 07:09 Stymie[SC] wrote:
uggghhh. I don't think that Blizzard gets it. For some reason they seem content with the boring 2 base play that their maps are encouraging. They need to get rid of the silly rocks in the back of your main, make it easier to take a third and just have bigger maps in general to create exiting macro games. If they do this, the game will be a lot more fun to play and to watch.
The rocks on for example the new LT are a non issue as far as I'm concerned seeing as they're IN your natural. Meaning you don't have to go out of your way to take them down.
I haven't looked at any of the other maps in any detail though so you could well be right.
I have to agree that the new LT looks better, though im not too sure how it would work if you spawn in close positions (good or bad). Map 2 also looks pretty good, but honestly, what is map 5, that is possibly the worst map that I have ever seen. Its like close positions on shakuras but worse.
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EPT
