EPTand some balance ofc
Patch 1.2.1 on PTR - Page 30
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nTwLegy
Croatia63 Posts
and some balance ofc | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
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Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On February 05 2011 06:48 Treemonkeys wrote: Why is everyone calling the first map the new LT? Yeah it looks kind of similar, but it's also very different. Has it actually been confirmed that this is going to be a new LT, or are people just assuming this? pretty safe assumption, testmap 1 is nearly identical to LT, with specific changes: -island expos are now not island expos, blocked by rocks -middle opened up -no cliffs overlooking the naturals In every other respect, the map is basically LT. start positions exactly the same as LT, layout of the main & natural exactly the same as in LT, every base including the golds are in the exact same position they are in LT, rocks blocking gold just like in LT, tall grass in the exact same spot as they are in LT, etc. It IS Lost Temple, just re-balanced. Having them both in the map pool would be redundant. | ||
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prototype.
Canada4200 Posts
4 player, large natural choke... SO ORIGINAL! The only thing that could make the map more interesting is if you add EVEN more destructible rocks, golden expansions, backdoors and xelnaga towers. | ||
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Nayl
Canada413 Posts
On 4 of these maps, if someone tries to expand early, the other guy can just walk into the main. | ||
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Stymie[SC]
Canada10 Posts
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Bleak
Turkey3059 Posts
It is not right to compare GSL maps to the ladder maps. Only pros take part in the GSL. Ladder is played by everyone. They need to account for the wide range of players, while trying to create maps that can allow fun games to be played, while also trying to cater the pros that practice using the ladder and also those who bought the game and just want to enjoy it in their own way without trying to be pros and don't know about how great BW was or don't care a thing about it. With those in mind, they're trying to do design some maps to the best of they can with their own thinking. But, people always find something to whine, you cannot satisfy anyone and the devs are aware of that, so that is why they don't take these pointless, childish complaining too seriously. No map is perfect, and so these maps are not, but they are just trying to make changes to the current pool. Asking the Blizzard to get the GSL maps into the ladder is ridiculous. The world is just not composed of Pros, and people who try to put themselves in their shoes while playing the game just because they want to feel "cool" like them while trying to pull off the things they do on those "ideal" maps. Maybe some people don't want too big maps in ladder? Maybe they want variety? Maybe they don't share the same philosophy regarding how the game should be played out? Why is ICCUP map making team, or just Kespa or whoever that made the maps in past have the absolute perfect tip-top uber ideas about how a map should be? Why are some people, so blindly adhering to the thought that these people should know the best and they are right 100% ? Perhaps they do actually, but why should the Blizzard dev team, the guys that made the game and play the game too, have to know less than these organizations? They freaking made the game. Do you think they are that stupid? Perhaps they think harrassment from cliff is a legitimate strategy and should be used? Perhaps there are narrow spots in the map because they just don't want you to engage there and think if you are out of position, you should be punished? Perhaps they don't agree to your point of view? Ever thought of that? Yes, there are bad maps. Delta Quadrant,Blistering Sands, Steppes of War, Jungle Basin or any map with close position spawn possible is downright boring and can drive some people including me, crazy. These maps are just not fun to play for a macro or a long game at all. But perhaps those maps are to be played in a quick fashion, with a more aggressive mindset. I know that this isn't fun in pro-scene at all, because you just want to see interesting and long-term play, but that is the point, it is a ladder map! Not for a tournament. The goal is not that. The ladder maps have been used in tournaments so far because there weren't any good maps that the map making teams could create in time. If you oh so want to play in the ICCUP maps, custom games are there, try to find some good practice partners and play the game in your own way. It's not going to be as competitive or thrilling as ladder can be, but the sad truth is that if people could have whatever they want then the human civilization would be wiped out by now. Again, I want to emphasize this: I'm not trying to say that the Blizz devs know the best, rest don't, or the other way round. It is just the pointless and unnecessary criticism to whatever they are trying to do. It is just childish. You're saying that they should know all because of 12 years of BW Korean Pro-Scene experience. You are comparing pro-scene, with maps designed for pro-play, to the ladder. Apples to oranges. | ||
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DirtYLOu
575 Posts
On February 05 2011 06:48 Treemonkeys wrote: Why is everyone calling the first map the new LT? Yeah it looks kind of similar, but it's also very different. Has it actually been confirmed that this is going to be a new LT, or are people just assuming this? It has been announced that they gonna modify - LT, Steppes and Blistering. | ||
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GreatFall
United States1061 Posts
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Nayl
Canada413 Posts
On February 05 2011 07:10 Bleak wrote: In Blizzcon, devs have talked about maps and they have stated that tournaments should use their own maps. There is a freaking game editor for this that people use to create a ton of maps. It is not right to compare GSL maps to the ladder maps. Only pros take part in the GSL. Ladder is played by everyone. They need to account for the wide range of players, while trying to create maps that can allow fun games to be played, while also trying to cater the pros that practice using the ladder and also those who bought the game and just want to enjoy it in their own way without trying to be pros and don't know about how great BW was or don't care a thing about it. With those in mind, they're trying to do design some maps to the best of they can with their own thinking. But, people always find something to whine, you cannot satisfy anyone and the devs are aware of that, so that is why they don't take these pointless, childish complaining too seriously. No map is perfect, and so these maps are not, but they are just trying to make changes to the current pool. Asking the Blizzard to get the GSL maps into the ladder is ridiculous. The world is just not composed of Pros, and people who try to put themselves in their shoes while playing the game just because they want to feel "cool" like them while trying to pull off the things they do on those "ideal" maps. Maybe some people don't want too big maps in ladder? Maybe they want variety? Maybe they don't share the same philosophy regarding how the game should be played out? Why is ICCUP map making team, or just Kespa or whoever that made the maps in past have the absolute perfect tip-top uber ideas about how a map should be? Why are some people, so blindly adhering to the thought that these people should know the best and they are right 100% ? Perhaps they do actually, but why should the Blizzard dev team, the guys that made the game and play the game too, have to know less than these organizations? They freaking made the game. Do you think they are that stupid? Perhaps they think harrassment from cliff is a legitimate strategy and should be used? Perhaps there are narrow spots in the map because they just don't want you to engage there and think if you are out of position, you should be punished? Perhaps they don't agree to your point of view? Ever thought of that? Yes, there are bad maps. Delta Quadrant,Blistering Sands, Steppes of War, Jungle Basin or any map with close position spawn possible is downright boring and can drive some people including me, crazy. These maps are just not fun to play for a macro or a long game at all. But perhaps those maps are to be played in a quick fashion, with a more aggressive mindset. I know that this isn't fun in pro-scene at all, because you just want to see interesting and long-term play, but that is the point, it is a ladder map! Not for a tournament. The goal is not that. The ladder maps have been used in tournaments so far because there weren't any good maps that the map making teams could create in time. If you oh so want to play in the ICCUP maps, custom games are there, try to find some good practice partners and play the game in your own way. It's not going to be as competitive or thrilling as ladder can be, but the sad truth is that if people could have whatever they want then the human civilization would be wiped out by now. Again, I want to emphasize this: I'm not trying to say that the Blizz devs know the best, rest don't, or the other way round. It is just the pointless and unnecessary criticism to whatever they are trying to do. It is just childish. You're saying that they should know all because of 12 years of BW Korean Pro-Scene experience. You are comparing pro-scene, with maps designed for pro-play, to the ladder. Apples to oranges. For most people, ladder is only way to practice this game. Also, GSL determines Code A qualifier through the ladder. But when the ladder is different from tournament, its very difficult to practice for a tournament. According to your logic, Blizzard should either make a seperate league with different map pool for Pros and casuals, (which almost doesn't make as much sense as having different map pool for ladder and tourneys) or even better, allow organizations to create a private ladder with custom map pool. Also There is not a single map in the current ladder pool that remotely resembles GSL-esque map. Why not even try to make ONE MAP like it? | ||
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Bleak
Turkey3059 Posts
On February 05 2011 07:18 Nayl wrote: + Show Spoiler + On February 05 2011 07:10 Bleak wrote: In Blizzcon, devs have talked about maps and they have stated that tournaments should use their own maps. There is a freaking game editor for this that people use to create a ton of maps. It is not right to compare GSL maps to the ladder maps. Only pros take part in the GSL. Ladder is played by everyone. They need to account for the wide range of players, while trying to create maps that can allow fun games to be played, while also trying to cater the pros that practice using the ladder and also those who bought the game and just want to enjoy it in their own way without trying to be pros and don't know about how great BW was or don't care a thing about it. With those in mind, they're trying to do design some maps to the best of they can with their own thinking. But, people always find something to whine, you cannot satisfy anyone and the devs are aware of that, so that is why they don't take these pointless, childish complaining too seriously. No map is perfect, and so these maps are not, but they are just trying to make changes to the current pool. Asking the Blizzard to get the GSL maps into the ladder is ridiculous. The world is just not composed of Pros, and people who try to put themselves in their shoes while playing the game just because they want to feel "cool" like them while trying to pull off the things they do on those "ideal" maps. Maybe some people don't want too big maps in ladder? Maybe they want variety? Maybe they don't share the same philosophy regarding how the game should be played out? Why is ICCUP map making team, or just Kespa or whoever that made the maps in past have the absolute perfect tip-top uber ideas about how a map should be? Why are some people, so blindly adhering to the thought that these people should know the best and they are right 100% ? Perhaps they do actually, but why should the Blizzard dev team, the guys that made the game and play the game too, have to know less than these organizations? They freaking made the game. Do you think they are that stupid? Perhaps they think harrassment from cliff is a legitimate strategy and should be used? Perhaps there are narrow spots in the map because they just don't want you to engage there and think if you are out of position, you should be punished? Perhaps they don't agree to your point of view? Ever thought of that? Yes, there are bad maps. Delta Quadrant,Blistering Sands, Steppes of War, Jungle Basin or any map with close position spawn possible is downright boring and can drive some people including me, crazy. These maps are just not fun to play for a macro or a long game at all. But perhaps those maps are to be played in a quick fashion, with a more aggressive mindset. I know that this isn't fun in pro-scene at all, because you just want to see interesting and long-term play, but that is the point, it is a ladder map! Not for a tournament. The goal is not that. The ladder maps have been used in tournaments so far because there weren't any good maps that the map making teams could create in time. If you oh so want to play in the ICCUP maps, custom games are there, try to find some good practice partners and play the game in your own way. It's not going to be as competitive or thrilling as ladder can be, but the sad truth is that if people could have whatever they want then the human civilization would be wiped out by now. Again, I want to emphasize this: I'm not trying to say that the Blizz devs know the best, rest don't, or the other way round. It is just the pointless and unnecessary criticism to whatever they are trying to do. It is just childish. You're saying that they should know all because of 12 years of BW Korean Pro-Scene experience. You are comparing pro-scene, with maps designed for pro-play, to the ladder. Apples to oranges. For most people, ladder is only way to practice this game. Also, GSL determines Code A qualifier through the ladder. But when the ladder is different from tournament, its very difficult to practice for a tournament. According to your logic, Blizzard should either make a seperate league with different map pool for Pros and casuals, (which almost doesn't make as much sense as having different map pool for ladder and tourneys) or even better, allow organizations to create a private ladder with custom map pool. Also There is not a single map in the current ladder pool that remotely resembles GSL-esque map. Why not even try to make ONE MAP like it? Pros should find people that can play together in custom games on the GSL maps. Most of them already are in teams, and even those who aren't just play with other people. Ladder can be used to train against cheese, or all-ins maybe? And the question about why not try to make one map like it, perhaps they don't want too big maps like the GSL ones? How do the great BW pros practice? Do they just roll everyone in iccup? I'm sure they play each other as now people can do in custom games. If the guy got through the ladder maps and a shitton of games to qualify for GSL, they should just prepare to put the effort to learn the new maps. Otherwise, how do you expect the tournaments to use new maps? In your logic, only ladder maps should be used because they have been here for a year, and adapting to the new maps will be too hard for them since they only practice on ladder. If they are pros, they should show how much pro they are and learn the new maps and deal with it. What about football players who play away from their home ground? I guess they shouldn't just travel to play and claim the location they are about to play is imbalanced and they don't know how to build good venues in good locations where climate and conditions are perfect. | ||
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garrhead1
United States16 Posts
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Nayl
Canada413 Posts
On February 05 2011 07:26 Bleak wrote: Pros should find people that can play together in custom games on the GSL maps. Most of them already are in teams, and even those who aren't just play with other people. Ladder can be used to train against cheese, or all-ins maybe? And the question about why not try to make one map like it, perhaps they don't want too big maps like the GSL ones? How do the great BW pros practice? Do they just roll everyone in iccup? I'm sure they play each other as now people can do in custom games. If the guy got through the ladder maps and a shitton of games to qualify for GSL, they should just prepare to put the effort to learn the new maps. Otherwise, how do you expect the tournaments to use new maps? In your logic, only ladder maps should be used because they have been here for a year, and adapting to the new maps will be too hard for them since they only practice on ladder. If they are pros, they should show how much pro they are and learn the new maps and deal with it. How about semi-pro players who aren't on a team? New players who wants to play competitively? Why create such artificial barrier of entry? Also why is it so painful in trying out GSL-esque maps? Maybe even casuals will enjoy this kind of map once in a while. Isn't that the point of PTR? The great Foreigner BW pros practiced using Iccup, because ICCup had 99% of the maps used by all tournaments around the world available. It's easy way to practice, you don't have to wait for your teammate to log on, you can just get in and play. Also, When you have to ladder to qualify, It's pretty difficult to watch replays of a pro to learn anything because they are on a completely different map pool with completely different map making philosophy. | ||
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[wh]_ForAlways
United States235 Posts
On February 05 2011 07:10 Bleak wrote: It is not right to compare GSL maps to the ladder maps. Only pros take part in the GSL. Ladder is played by everyone. While this is true, many players (myself included) want to play on the GSL maps because macro maps are generally a better test of skill. They need to account for the wide range of players, while trying to create maps that can allow fun games to be played, while also trying to cater the pros that practice using the ladder and also those who bought the game and just want to enjoy it in their own way without trying to be pros and don't know about how great BW was or don't care a thing about it. While I understand the need to cater to their entire player base, one of the biggest complaints among bronze to gold league players is that sc2 is just a rush fest. While this isn't entirely true, bigger maps would remove this negative stigma. Also, where do you draw the line with accounting for a broad range of players? A map with small rush distances and a wide open choke (Delta Quadrant) will play much differently than say, cross positions shakuras plateau. Should blizzard also add a BGH-esque map to the ladder pool? With those in mind, they're trying to do design some maps to the best of they can with their own thinking. But, people always find something to whine, you cannot satisfy anyone and the devs are aware of that, so that is why they don't take these pointless, childish complaining too seriously. No map is perfect, and so these maps are not, but they are just trying to make changes to the current pool. I agree that there is no such thing as a perfect map, but Brood War had 12 years of mapmaking behind it, and one needs to look no further than the ICCUP and GSL maps to wonder why Blizzard's mapmaking team simply isn't up to par. Asking the Blizzard to get the GSL maps into the ladder is ridiculous. The world is just not composed of Pros, and people who try to put themselves in their shoes while playing the game just because they want to feel "cool" like them while trying to pull off the things they do on those "ideal" maps. Maybe some people don't want too big maps in ladder? Maybe they want variety? People don't play on macro maps to feel cool like the pros. They play on them because Macro maps are a greater test of skill, and promote a wider range of strategies. If Blizzard wanted variety in their map pool. Then why is it that almost every map has small rush distances and a wide open natural. Where is the big wide open macro map like God's Garden? Maybe they don't share the same philosophy regarding how the game should be played out? Why is ICCUP map making team, or just Kespa or whoever that made the maps in past have the absolute perfect tip-top uber ideas about how a map should be? Why are some people, so blindly adhering to the thought that these people should know the best and they are right 100%? Because Brood War has had 12 years of map making behind it. Players have seen what it's like to not have a natural expansion, island maps, a mineral only expansion, a hard to secure gas natural, and finally (what we see now) an easily securable gas natural. As strategies have evolved, easily securable gas naturals have provided the most interesting games. While the possibility remains that this might not hold true in SC2, I think it's fair to say that 4 gates, 2 rax all ins, steppes of War, and close positions on metalopolis rarely provide high level, entertaining, or even enjoyable games to play on. Perhaps they do actually, but why should the Blizzard dev team, the guys that made the game and play the game too, have to know less than these organizations? Because players have to play their maps on the ladder. Which might not be a big deal, but Blizzard invites the top people in the ladder to blizzcon and it's damn near impossible to set up a private ladder with custom maps ala BW's ICCUP. They freaking made the game. Do you think they are that stupid? Perhaps they think harrassment from cliff is a legitimate strategy and should be used? Perhaps there are narrow spots in the map because they just don't want you to engage there and think if you are out of position, you should be punished? Perhaps they don't agree to your point of view? Ever thought of that? If the new test map is any indication, they clearly think that the cliff at LT's naturals were a bit too much. As for the narrow spots, Blizzard must not want us to engage anywhere because there really isn't a single map that has a nice wide open area to engage at. Yes, there are bad maps. Delta Quadrant,Blistering Sands, Steppes of War, Jungle Basin or any map with close position spawn possible is downright boring and can drive some people including me, crazy. These maps are just not fun to play for a macro or a long game at all. But perhaps those maps are to be played in a quick fashion, with a more aggressive mindset. There's a difference between playing aggressive, and being all in. Not to mention Zerg's options on 1 base is laughable. I know that this isn't fun in pro-scene at all, because you just want to see interesting and long-term play, but that is the point, it is a [b]ladder map! Not for a tournament. The goal is not that. The ladder maps have been used in tournaments so far because there weren't any good maps that the map making teams could create in time. If you oh so want to play in the ICCUP maps, custom games are there, try to find some good practice partners and play the game in your own way. It's not going to be as competitive or thrilling as ladder can be, but the sad truth is that if people could have whatever they want then the human civilization would be wiped out by now. If you're acknowledging that the maps are bad for high level play, then Blizzard should not use top ladder spots to determine invites for their own tournament. As for people having whatever they want, Blizzard should realize that if they keep using the same stagnant, awful map pool, it will only hurt their game. Again, I want to emphasize this: I'm not trying to say that the Blizz devs know the best, rest don't, or the other way round. It is just the pointless and unnecessary criticism to whatever they are trying to do. It is just childish. You're saying that they should know all because of 12 years of BW Korean Pro-Scene experience. You are comparing pro-scene, with maps designed for pro-play, to the ladder. Apples to oranges. The criticism is absolutely necessary. The map pool promotes a playstyle that requires very little strategic insight, and does not demand much of the players to execute said strategies. People complain and criticize because it's absolutely ridiculous that the same horrendous maps have been in rotation for the past 6 months now, some of them are coming close to a year (including beta). This would be alright if these were truly amazing maps, but the overall quality is just awful. Let's get some true variety in the map pool with some nice solid macro maps (preferably free of destructible rocks). | ||
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Bleak
Turkey3059 Posts
On February 05 2011 07:33 Nayl wrote: How about semi-pro players who aren't on a team? New players who wants to play competitively? Why create such artificial barrier of entry? Also why is it so painful in trying out GSL-esque maps? Maybe even casuals will enjoy this kind of map once in a while. Isn't that the point of PTR? The great Foreigner BW pros practiced using Iccup, because ICCup had 99% of the maps used by all tournaments around the world available. It's easy way to practice, you don't have to wait for your teammate to log on, you can just get in and play. Also, When you have to ladder to qualify, It's pretty difficult to watch replays of a pro to learn anything because they are on a completely different map pool with completely different map making philosophy. At some point you need to draw the distance between the two. Ladder is ladder, tournament is tournament. You can choose your opponent in ICCUP, so maps will matter there. In ladder you just click the button and play someone in your region. Therefore it is important to draw the distinction. Yes, some players might enjoy the map. But some won't. It needs to be taken into account, even though there is an option to downvote the maps. The fact is that, the new maps will create new problems for the game. At the pro level, they can just find a way to deal with it and the game will open up to a different playstyle. What about the people in ladder? It is just too much work to balance the game around that. Again I repeat, I'm not the one trying to make money playing a video game, if they love what they're doing and committed to it, they should just find a way to do it. It is their job. | ||
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Stymie[SC]
Canada10 Posts
On February 05 2011 07:18 Nayl wrote: + Show Spoiler + For most people, ladder is only way to practice this game. Also, GSL determines Code A qualifier through the ladder. But when the ladder is different from tournament, its very difficult to practice for a tournament. According to your logic, Blizzard should either make a seperate league with different map pool for Pros and casuals, (which almost doesn't make as much sense as having different map pool for ladder and tourneys) or even better, allow organizations to create a private ladder with custom map pool. Also There is not a single map in the current ladder pool that remotely resembles GSL-esque map. Why not even try to make ONE MAP like it? Pros should find people that can play together in custom games on the GSL maps. Most of them already are in teams, and even those who aren't just play with other people. Ladder can be used to train against cheese, or all-ins maybe? And the question about why not try to make one map like it, perhaps they don't want too big maps like the GSL ones? How do the great BW pros practice? Do they just roll everyone in iccup? I'm sure they play each other as now people can do in custom games. If the guy got through the ladder maps and a shitton of games to qualify for GSL, they should just prepare to put the effort to learn the new maps. Otherwise, how do you expect the tournaments to use new maps? In your logic, only ladder maps should be used because they have been here for a year, and adapting to the new maps will be too hard for them since they only practice on ladder. If they are pros, they should show how much pro they are and learn the new maps and deal with it. In your first post, you were saying that they might want a variety of maps, and now your saying that, they dont want big maps like the GSL ones. I'm a little confused as to what your point is. I think that it is fair that they might want to encourage a variety of play styles with different maps and if you dont like a few of them, you can just vote them down. But the whole point of that is a VARIETY of maps, not all short maps that you cant take a third on. It would be nice to have at least one or two macro maps. I also think that if they really want to try and please everyone, like you were saying Bleak, they should increase the size of the map pool and give everyone more votes on maps that they dont like. Right now i dont see any variety, just gimmicky maps that encourage more cheese and two base all ins, rather than real macro games that in themselves give a greater variety of play styles. | ||
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Nayl
Canada413 Posts
On February 05 2011 07:39 Bleak wrote: At some point you need to draw the distance between the two. Ladder is ladder, tournament is tournament. You can choose your opponent in ICCUP, so maps will matter there. In ladder you just click the button and play someone in your region. Therefore it is important to draw the distinction. Yes, some players might enjoy the map. But some won't. It needs to be taken into account, even though there is an option to downvote the maps. The fact is that, the new maps will create new problems for the game. At the pro level, they can just find a way to deal with it and the game will open up to a different playstyle. What about the people in ladder? It is just too much work to balance the game around that. Again I repeat, I'm not the one trying to make money playing a video game, if they love what they're doing and committed to it, they should just find a way to do it. It is their job. Well then they should have at least the option of pro maps available shouldn't they? Do you really think people enjoy playing on Delta/Stepps? I can say this some players might enjoy the map. But some won't. about the current map pool. Does blizzard care about that? Well, currently, no. By the way, GSL maps get constantly updated over and over, in order to make the map as balanced as possible. Gom has also been dismissing some maps due to issues with it, and they are being very careful when picking from these maps. Again, do blizzard do this? No. I honestly don't think they have enough man power to commit to this kind of details, yet they refuse to use community driven map, or at least adopt their philosophy. Instead, they add maps for the sake of adding maps. Earlier in the thread mentioned Test map 5 was shown at Blizzcon, and its actually in the blizzard custom map pool, its named New Antioch. You cannot honestly say current ladder map pool Blizzard is keeping because current style seems fun for the casuals. Dustin browder himself even said 2 rax pressure is "garbage". And what do Casuals usually cry about? That this game is too much about "rushes". | ||
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TSM
Great Britain584 Posts
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