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IdrA on why he left so fast vs Jinro and more! - Page 20

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567 CommentsPost a Reply
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KissKiss
Profile Joined July 2010
United Kingdom136 Posts
January 22 2011 03:55 GMT
#381
Awesome interview. Hearing Idra QQ about Zerg makes me feel warm and fuzzy. I think the maps are more to blame than anything else though. Isn't that the second time he's had to play Jinro on Jungle Basin? I mean Jinro no disrespect, but its pretty autowin for Terran against Zerg on that map.
OmegaSyrus
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada46 Posts
January 22 2011 03:56 GMT
#382
That was a very honest, intelligent discourse from Idra.
Praise the system.
TheSurgeonTV
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States131 Posts
January 22 2011 04:01 GMT
#383
@Idra You say zergs got lucky to make it as far as they had, implying imbalance. Where do you see improvements in balance for the matchups? if you could make one unit to add in the next expansion, what would it be?
Bringing Starcraft Main Stream
Railin
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada96 Posts
January 22 2011 04:01 GMT
#384
Great interview, thanks you both!

I'm really looking forward to your new stream and lessons!

<3
~~femFxRailin~~ "Sc2 strategies have an interesting history of being developed in Europe, perfected in Korea, and used on unsuspecting Americans" [Tree.Hugger]
Integra
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Sweden5626 Posts
January 22 2011 04:01 GMT
#385
It's funny how Zerg still sucks lol.
"Dark Pleasure" | | I survived the Locust war of May 3, 2014
Raeleigh
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada902 Posts
January 22 2011 04:49 GMT
#386
On January 22 2011 13:01 Integra wrote:
It's funny how Zerg still sucks lol.

I really don't think Zerg sucks at all. =/ A bit of a stupid thing to say.

But a good video (: Was good to see.
you are perfect porcelain.
shire
Profile Joined August 2010
United States405 Posts
January 22 2011 05:07 GMT
#387
what does he think about new maps that will come into play in next gsl? does he not think zergs will have better chances in new maps?
Saechiis
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Netherlands4989 Posts
January 22 2011 05:08 GMT
#388
Great, Idra aiming to start a new era of Zerg QQ. I'd like his new humble attitude if only it didn't stem from his view of Zerg as being vastly underpowered. At some point you'd expect him to just switch to Toss or Terran and own everyone, but somehow if feel that's never going to happen.

I appreciate him trying to create more content for SC2 fans, if only he wasn't so painfully biased.
I think esports is pretty nice.
palookieblue
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia326 Posts
January 22 2011 05:10 GMT
#389
On January 22 2011 10:00 Lefnui wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2011 09:41 MrSpider wrote:
On January 22 2011 09:10 Klogon wrote:
On January 22 2011 08:50 Lefnui wrote:
On January 22 2011 08:35 Klogon wrote:
On January 22 2011 08:23 travis wrote:
On January 22 2011 08:22 1Eris1 wrote:
On January 22 2011 08:06 travis wrote:
On January 22 2011 07:50 ratMortar wrote:
On January 22 2011 07:45 travis wrote:
[quote]

it's ridiculously pessimistic to leave games(especially in a tournament) when you still have a chance of winning. he even admits in the interview that it's still possible for him to win.


IdrA made it very clear that he had no chance of winning his game on Metal.

Thanks Artosis, you always provide great interviews.


ok i listened again and he kind of does say that, though he is really vague about it... ("blah blah its possible to come back if ur macro is good enough blah blah.. but jinro is too solid")

i'll just say that if that's what he thinks, then he's wrong. you can get lucky, and your opponent can do stupid shit or make huge mistakes. sure, it's extremely unlikely. but what does that matter? unlikely things happen all the time. he says it wasn't worth it to play it out like he's actually losing something substantial by playing it out.

I think idra knows that it's still possible he could win, just incredibly unlikely. And so he doesn't bother, which is why I call him pessimistic.



TBH Im sure he knows there is like a .001% chance Jinro might mess up, but I think he just left so he wouldn't get caught up in the game and could focus. If he had stuck around he would have just gotten rolled and it probably would have thrown him off for the next game.



I suppose that could be true. I haven't really been in that situation so I wouldn't know


I am a fan of being a fighter and playing it out. I would like to compare it to basketball where in the play offs you have a series of 7 games played in a very short period of time. Even if you are down by 6 points with very little time on the clock, you'll still call those time outs and foul the opposing team if there is a SLIGHT chance you can win. Sure it'll drag out the game and sure you might feel less rested in the next game, but the small chance of a miracle is worth it.


I think that's a very poor comparison. Firstly, in basketball you can't resign. So your only other option would be to just stand there, which would of course be ridiculous. The only time that approach is accepted in basketball is when it's absolutely clear that there isn't enough time or the point differential is too great.

Unlike in Starcraft, basketball starts over with every play. Whatever happened in the past plays makes absolutely no difference(except for the score of course). But in Starcraft the advantages roll over so if you get that far behind you might as well just resign. It's known for it's 'slippery slope' effect. Basketball is the very opposite, you can get back into the game so quickly with a few good stops and series of makes.

A much better comparison would be to chess. In chess if two GMs are playing and one drops a pawn in the opening with no compensation you can be almost guaranteed that he will resign.




It's all percentages and math though. If statistically, a player who got bunker blocked can come back the same percentage of the time as a player down 0-40 to Federer in a game, in the end of the day, the efforts of the disadvantaged players in both cases can be considered fairly similar as they have a statistically similar chance of a come back. That's my point. If using your basketball example, just make the gap in points big enough that would be similar statistically to a blocked bunker ramp and the same principle applies. In most other sports, you see athletes fighting to the death. They often will lose, but every once in a while you have an EPIC comeback. That's my point. I love those comebacks. So I love the fight.

It's been beaten to death tho so I'll stop.


Klogon is totally right, I play zerg, I love Idra's playstyle and I understand his feelings, but its too easy for him to always complain.
Look at Fruitdealer in Season 1 against NexLiveForever. Cool lost his hatch, and then lost several drone due to invisible banshees, he didn't give up, and had an epic victory(the most epic victory I ever seen).
Ok it was fruitdealer, ok it was not close position, and its very painful to try something that will propably never work but the fact is : at least Idra, TRY TO DO SOMETHING. Even if banelings or roach all-in will not work, just do it! Because sometimes it works, its just a game and Jinro can do mistakes(like cancelling a marine instead of a barracks).

Bah I'm sure Idra will do well next season as always, he is the Gracken!!


That game is not comparable to being contained by two bunkers.

Let's be clear: When you are contained by two bunkers the game is over. You have already lost. Put close spawn meta on top of it and it's almost silly to stay.

Sweet, if I ever encounter you on ladder I'll know how to swindle you for some free wins. If everyone played perfectly then any advantage gained during the course of a game will be 100% converted into a win.
Better players than IdrA would have continued, have continued, and in some circumstances, have won.

Overall, great interview.
Thanks IdrA and Artosis.

I will just say this: IdrA's attitude, whether it is genuine or not, absolves him of people's expectations. It's actually pretty sneaky. If he loses, there is no big surprise because 'omg Zerg is UP' and 'IMBA T/MAPS'. And if he wins, he's lauded for overcoming these 'inherent' disadvantages, and playing SUPERIOR to his opponents. Smart guy.

Also, when IdrA commented regarding the roach patch, saying that he wouldn't lose to Terran for a month... doesn't anyone find this to be a weird statement?
Terran players can evolve... but IdrA and zergs can't?

Puh-leese.
oyoyo
TetriX101
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada51 Posts
January 22 2011 05:19 GMT
#390
Oh IdrA, i really want him to win a GSL T_T I think he deserves it after all these horrible matchups ><
Never Give Up! Never Surrender!
Euronyme
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden3804 Posts
January 22 2011 05:37 GMT
#391
On January 22 2011 11:59 riyanme wrote:
NO ZERG SHOULDN'T BE WINNING!!!
Just watched his interviews. He is nuts.
Maybe he got roasted thats why he wants to pull IMNESTEA down.
Really annoying. I respect his opinion but I don't like it.


He's saying that Zerg is vastly underpowered, and that nestea wouldn't have gotten this far, had he faced decent opponents. IE nestea doesn't deserve being where he is, as he hasn't proved anything. He has a point in that.

I also belive that if he hadn't gone all in on jungle basin, just 6 pooled and kept his drones, he might have won the game. He woulda gotten lots of SCV kills, and been able to pump in more lings.
I bet i can maı̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̨̨̨̨̨̨ke you wipe your screen.
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-22 05:53:42
January 22 2011 05:48 GMT
#392
On January 22 2011 11:41 tripper688 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2011 11:23 riyanme wrote:
On January 22 2011 10:51 tripper688 wrote:
I really don't see the evidence for "Zerg is Underpowered" at the moment (at least not against T), at least not from the GSL results. Granted, I'm not a pro gamer nor am I an SC2 commentator/analyst but from the statistics....GSL has never been won by a T, despite T having the most representation. Furthermore, GSL 3 has been the ONLY tournament where T has posted an above 50% win rate against Z. Even now in GSL 4, T has a sub 50% win rate against Z (pending MVP vs Nestea). PvZ seems pretty broken right now but P has arguably had a much rougher time overall than Z throughout the GSLs. Just wondering what people make of this.



ZERG is not underpowered.... TERRAN is OVERPOWERED... slightly. As for Protoss. Fairly good enough.

I guess the problem here is the map. Almost all map favors TERRAN first then PROTOSS and lastly ZERG.


It's easy to say X is not UP, Y is OP or anything else but in the GSL, the statistics are not backing up all those claims. I'm not saying any race is truly OP or UP, I'm just trying to figure out how a race that is overpowered is consistently losing over 50% of the games when looking at all the maps. I understand that map imbalances influence the results of games but maps favoring T should result in a higher T win rate, not a lower one.

Statistics are irrelevant for judging the current state of the game. You can really only do qualitative analysis and skill/experience is required for that.

The game has played across several different patches with different map pools and many meta game switches. He's saying that in the most recent versions of all of these, ZvT is a bad matchup for Z. What FD did in S1 has absolutely zero bearing on that.

And it's not something that can necessarily be seen across the board. The win % of Code A players isn't necessarily going to help you see how Ts at or near MVP's caliber can roll over Zs atm.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
January 22 2011 05:53 GMT
#393
On January 22 2011 14:08 Saechiis wrote:
Great, Idra aiming to start a new era of Zerg QQ. I'd like his new humble attitude if only it didn't stem from his view of Zerg as being vastly underpowered. At some point you'd expect him to just switch to Toss or Terran and own everyone, but somehow if feel that's never going to happen.

I appreciate him trying to create more content for SC2 fans, if only he wasn't so painfully biased.

you realize ive just spent like 10 months playing zerg?
i have very little experience with tvt/pvp/tvp and zerg's mechanics are relatively unique compared to the other races. even if im right and t/p are easier and stronger than zerg it would still take a long time to get to the level of my zerg with either of them. and if i dont have immediate success i catch a bunch of shit for it, and eventually blizzard will have to address the balance issues and then i feel like an idiot, because i do prefer to play zerg.

this is why almost no competitive players have switched races. however the fact that just about every high level zerg player has considered switching, if not publicly announced they intend to, kind of says something. how many t's and p's do you see saying theyre gonna switch? i can only remember genius. whereas with zerg dimaga, machine, sheth, myself, ret, haypro, fd, check, and possibly other korean z's have all either practiced other races seriously or announced that we want to/intend to switch.
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
Taf the Ghost
Profile Joined December 2010
United States11751 Posts
January 22 2011 06:04 GMT
#394
Anyone else remember that Fruitdealer had 1.1 patch land before his Ro16? It didn't win him the game, but it did blow up about 15 of TOP's SCVs in a really funny fashion.

As for Idra's roach statement... didn't that turn out to be correct? He went to MLG DC and rolfstomped his way through the bracket. He lost in the GSL to Zenio, in ZvZ. It turned out to be right. Then the 2rax all-ins became common.

And as for what Idra is talking about: he's talking about at the very top-end of skill. Among the maybe 30 players in the world at that level, he's saying that you shouldn't win ZvT, and soon ZvP due to new air builds people will figure out. And, he's pretty much right. MVP will destroy Nestea, and everyone knows it. Or Nestea reinvents ZvT and everyone starts copying it. Kind of the way it works.

And you really can't talk much about the game from GSL1 to now. As we've seen in Code S, those that made it in Season 1 really aren't doing so well right now. Game has shifted a lot. Reapers are gone for utility & roaches have 4 range now, plus lots of other changes. It's a different pro-scene now.
Lefnui
Profile Joined November 2008
United States753 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-22 06:08:50
January 22 2011 06:08 GMT
#395
On January 22 2011 14:10 palookieblue wrote:

Sweet, if I ever encounter you on ladder I'll know how to swindle you for some free wins.


Good luck with that.

If everyone played perfectly then any advantage gained during the course of a game will be 100% converted into a win.


Did I claim that "everyone plays perfectly"? Please read my comments correctly. The point is that it's such a massive advantage that it will almost definitely be converted into a win. I think the source of so much confusion here is that some of you simply don't understand how big of an advantage it is.

Better players than IdrA would have continued, have continued, and in some circumstances, have won.


That's totally baseless and you won't have a single example to support it.

I will just say this: IdrA's attitude, whether it is genuine or not, absolves him of people's expectations. It's actually pretty sneaky. If he loses, there is no big surprise because 'omg Zerg is UP' and 'IMBA T/MAPS'. And if he wins, he's lauded for overcoming these 'inherent' disadvantages, and playing SUPERIOR to his opponents. Smart guy.


You speak as if all of those complaints are unjustified. Truth is that Zerg has been by far the weakest race and many imbalances have existed. And if that's his tactful approach then it hasn't worked out very well. Seeing as that at least half of the responses to him are along the lines of "Stop whining about imbalance!"
Shooks
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia256 Posts
January 22 2011 06:22 GMT
#396
Bronze players arguing about balance, always fun to read.
ELA
Profile Joined April 2010
Denmark4608 Posts
January 22 2011 06:28 GMT
#397
Thank you Artosis and thank you idrA for your thoughts. Always a pleasure
The first link of chain forged, the first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.
ymir233
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States8275 Posts
January 22 2011 06:36 GMT
#398
Noobs derping it up here.
It's NOT whining if IdrA makes a perfectly fine point (no matter how shocking/strong it may be) and then manages to back it up with the mounds of experience that he has. His train of logic is sound and I don't think saying shouting IdrA down with calls of "get better" 24/7 works any better than the eternal corporate slogan "work smarter not harder".

Also, why are the air builds so good o_____O?
Come motivate me to be cynical about animus at http://infinityandone.blogspot.com/ // Stork proxy gates are beautiful.
tripper688
Profile Joined January 2011
United States569 Posts
January 22 2011 06:39 GMT
#399
On January 22 2011 14:48 Jibba wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2011 11:41 tripper688 wrote:
On January 22 2011 11:23 riyanme wrote:
On January 22 2011 10:51 tripper688 wrote:
I really don't see the evidence for "Zerg is Underpowered" at the moment (at least not against T), at least not from the GSL results. Granted, I'm not a pro gamer nor am I an SC2 commentator/analyst but from the statistics....GSL has never been won by a T, despite T having the most representation. Furthermore, GSL 3 has been the ONLY tournament where T has posted an above 50% win rate against Z. Even now in GSL 4, T has a sub 50% win rate against Z (pending MVP vs Nestea). PvZ seems pretty broken right now but P has arguably had a much rougher time overall than Z throughout the GSLs. Just wondering what people make of this.



ZERG is not underpowered.... TERRAN is OVERPOWERED... slightly. As for Protoss. Fairly good enough.

I guess the problem here is the map. Almost all map favors TERRAN first then PROTOSS and lastly ZERG.


It's easy to say X is not UP, Y is OP or anything else but in the GSL, the statistics are not backing up all those claims. I'm not saying any race is truly OP or UP, I'm just trying to figure out how a race that is overpowered is consistently losing over 50% of the games when looking at all the maps. I understand that map imbalances influence the results of games but maps favoring T should result in a higher T win rate, not a lower one.

Statistics are irrelevant for judging the current state of the game. You can really only do qualitative analysis and skill/experience is required for that.

The game has played across several different patches with different map pools and many meta game switches. He's saying that in the most recent versions of all of these, ZvT is a bad matchup for Z. What FD did in S1 has absolutely zero bearing on that.

And it's not something that can necessarily be seen across the board. The win % of Code A players isn't necessarily going to help you see how Ts at or near MVP's caliber can roll over Zs atm.


That's true I haven't really taken into account the separate A and S leagues. However, I fail to see how statistics are useless in judging the current state of the game. If a MU is imbalanced, shouldn't the win rates be affected in some way shape or form? Regardless of how FD did in S1, S4 Zergs as a whole are still compiling a 50%+ win rate against T. You might say players at MVP's caliber, but is that a problem with the MU or that some players are that much better? When Bisu stormed onto the scene and turned PvZ onto it's head, did it make Protoss OP? Or was it because at the time, he was doing things no one else was able to do? If the T win rate is below 50% even with the top Ts rolling through all Z they face, might that not be a case of the top players being good?

For people saying T is overrepresented in the quarters...T is the most played race. There are more T starting from ro64. If you're talking about representation, Z is fine. 8/32 to start and now 1/4 in the quarters. Maybe that was because Nestea had an easy schedule but if Jinro's marine didn't make it to the bunker, we might have 2 z 2 t in finals.
"Excuse me I gotta do some vacuuming really fast *vrrrrrrmmmmmmmmm*" Day[9]
yawnoC
Profile Joined December 2010
United States3704 Posts
January 22 2011 06:40 GMT
#400
Good questions and good answers.
Always fun to listen to idra.
GG - UNiVeRsE is the best player in the WORLD
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