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On December 04 2010 18:38 Maeldun wrote:
This is the first time I felt for KeSPA, and felt that Blizzard were being assholes. Normally in my casual glances at this issue, I felt that KeSPA were assholes and Blizzard were awesome (over simplifying my feelings, but meh, it shall do). This however makes me question Blizzard's integrity somewhat.
I think you'd be off center to seriously believe that KeSPA are innocent little angels in this conflict either, but blizzard has a long history of making life miserable for anyone who refuses to give them a tidy cut of their "profits" whenever it's possible. Blizzard is one of the few gaming companies that shuts down third party mod projects that utilize their IP, which is especially interesting as a huge amount of their IP is derived from WarHammer content.
If Blizzard does have the moral high ground here, it's not by a huge margin.
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simple facts already stated:
KeSPA's fee's are used to finance and keep running the SL and PL and the BW scene in general
actiblizzard fee would go only, and only to actiblizzard
if you cant see it yet then you are just denying whats in front of your eyes
i really hope they get over this fast enough, thank you a lot for the translation, its always good to read both sides of the argument, makes it easier to tell who's the one talking bs(not that it was difficult from the start)
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On December 04 2010 19:10 SwiftSpear wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:38 Maeldun wrote:
This is the first time I felt for KeSPA, and felt that Blizzard were being assholes. Normally in my casual glances at this issue, I felt that KeSPA were assholes and Blizzard were awesome (over simplifying my feelings, but meh, it shall do). This however makes me question Blizzard's integrity somewhat. which is especially interesting as a huge amount of their IP is derived from WarHammer content.
Ironic isn't it? :D
Its funny how people hate kespa when proteams before wanted sponsor's help. i dont understand why rek feel hatred towards these companies when infact they made it possible for the scene to last (they may haven't started it but atleast they were a big factor for it's success). could atleast give them some credit.
if its how kespa treats progamers under their contract, thats another story.
all in all its all about money. none from both sides admits that its all about money. its pathetic. but i love BW games and who ever delivers these games has, to me, to win.
and no i don't hate SC2 per se, its just that i hate overhyped things. but this isn't about SC2 nor BW.
its about dominating and controlling the scene. its like that from dune
who ever controls the spice, controls the universe
spice=IP
universe=e-sport/profit/the best players of the word/fans/money/money/profit ..
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"But, KeSPA and the Progame teams do not restrict the freedoms of the players themselves. Every player enters the Progame team only after plenty of negotiations with a contract that is unique to the player, and the player himself has complete freedom to choose where he wants to go."
lol'd.
Spunky even said it. "Playing under KeSPA was like playing under a communist regime." And if you want playing video games to be like that, then...well...I don't know what to say to you.
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Keep the updates coming. Blizzard needs to put their money where their mouth is a offer up a prize pool for teams and players to vie for. Jinro's last match had 70K viewers. A full blow season and singles tournament certainly can be translated into revenues through ticket and merchandise sales. Common Blizzard, do the right thing.
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I miss a lot of news since there is this new "community news section". This would deserve to be on the first page.
Anyway, I think it is totally normal to recognize Blizzard's IP, but whatever the PR stunts Paul Sams tries, it's hard to see the link between IP rights and the fact that Gretech asked MBC and OGN to yield their broadcast schedule (aka don't fucking broadcast PL/SL at the same time we broadcast GSL).
I think Kespa was totally right to reject these unacceptable conditions, and that losing a lawsuit can't be as bad as accepting them.
Thanks Milkis for the translation !
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On December 04 2010 20:02 JoFu wrote:
Spunky even said it. "Playing under KeSPA was like playing under a communist regime." And if you want playing video games to be like that, then...well...I don't know what to say to you.
And Jaedong said "if it's not for Kespa and the broadcasting stations there is no esport and Blizzard is the guy who don't understand anything".
Seriously quoting one guy's biased view doesn't mean anything.
Kespa's system has regular salary, recognized job status and free gaming condition. In Kespa's system mapmakers and players own their maps and games, and Kespa must pay salary to the players and mapmakers to have control of their IP. Not to mention that they have media support which allow their games to be broadcast on TV like regular sports.
Blizzard's system has no assured salary (only the lucky guys who have a sponsor have), "amateur" status from the gov, and everything are paid by the players and not by the tournament's organizers. Battle.net 2.0 is the most bullshit thing ever made because every games, replays, maps, broadcast products created by the efforts of many people BELONGS to Blizzard. It doesn't only apply to the pro scene, it applies to every people in the world : the game you play with the silly comps do not belong to you, the map you spent 64 hours of work to make does not belong to you, THEY ALL BELONG TO BLIZZARD.
Blizzard is the communist here, not Kespa. Blizzard fans 'only argument is that "Players under Kespa are not allowed to play 2 games at a time" which is extremely weak : no player plays 2 games at a time both professionally, They are under Pro Contract and receive salary, they are tied to the company they work for, like every professional jobs in the world. If you are a professional developer working for Microsoft you are not allowed to work for Ford as a professional car seller. In the SC2 scene Blizzard don't pay the players anything and therefore the players have no tie with Blizzard, they are freelancers and can do whatever they want, but they lack a professional contract and a regular salary. Blizzard even strip the players from the right to own their rightful IP : the games they played.
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On December 04 2010 19:10 SwiftSpear wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:38 Maeldun wrote:
This is the first time I felt for KeSPA, and felt that Blizzard were being assholes. Normally in my casual glances at this issue, I felt that KeSPA were assholes and Blizzard were awesome (over simplifying my feelings, but meh, it shall do). This however makes me question Blizzard's integrity somewhat. a huge amount of their IP is derived from WarHammer content.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starship_Troopers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.R._Giger
Just wanted to point out that 40k is no more original than Starcraft. Starship has space marines, a bug based race and smart, grey aliens. Also, Giger is more influential to the zerg than any arachnid.
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On December 04 2010 22:53 kamikami wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 20:02 JoFu wrote:
Spunky even said it. "Playing under KeSPA was like playing under a communist regime." And if you want playing video games to be like that, then...well...I don't know what to say to you. And Jaedong said "if it's not for Kespa and the broadcasting stations there is no esport and Blizzard is the guy who don't understand anything". Seriously quoting one guy's biased view doesn't mean anything. Kespa's system has regular salary, recognized job status and free gaming condition. In Kespa's system mapmakers and players own their maps and games, and Kespa must pay salary to the players and mapmakers to have control of their IP. Not to mention that they have media support which allow their games to be broadcast on TV like regular sports. Blizzard's system has no assured salary (only the lucky guys who have a sponsor have), "amateur" status from the gov, and everything are paid by the players and not by the tournament's organizers. Battle.net 2.0 is the most bullshit thing ever made because every games, replays, maps, broadcast products created by the efforts of many people BELONGS to Blizzard. It doesn't only apply to the pro scene, it applies to every people in the world : the game you play with the silly comps do not belong to you, the map you spent 64 hours of work to make does not belong to you, THEY ALL BELONG TO BLIZZARD. Blizzard is the communist here, not Kespa. Blizzard fans 'only argument is that "Players under Kespa are not allowed to play 2 games at a time" which is extremely weak : no player plays 2 games at a time both professionally, They are under Pro Contract and receive salary, they are tied to the company they work for, like every professional jobs in the world. If you are a professional developer working for Microsoft you are not allowed to work for Ford as a professional car seller. In the SC2 scene Blizzard don't pay the players anything and therefore the players have no tie with Blizzard, they are freelancers and can do whatever they want, but they lack a professional contract and a regular salary. Blizzard even strip the players from the right to own their rightful IP : the games they played.
*nod* I remember that quote by Jaedong! Blizzard is not perfect either, and you just summed up most of their faults well. This Kespa bashing is getting old, regardless of whether they committed 'a major crime' in the anti-fans' eyes. BW e-sports would not have thrived without them because they are made up of all the sponsors of the teams involved. And however much I dislike some of their actions in the past, I only want BW to survive and prosper along with SC2.
We should all get along. But if BW dies because of this lawsuit against MBC, OGN and Kespa, then you all know who to focus your anger at. It is that simple. Zergbong, the winner of SC2 GSL Season 2, said in an interview that the SC community was divided in South Korea and that all the bickering back and forth was getting useless; he continued by saying that we should love and play both games regardless of what happens and that the fans are the real victims here. I can not agree with him more! ^^
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On December 04 2010 19:10 SwiftSpear wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:38 Maeldun wrote:
This is the first time I felt for KeSPA, and felt that Blizzard were being assholes. Normally in my casual glances at this issue, I felt that KeSPA were assholes and Blizzard were awesome (over simplifying my feelings, but meh, it shall do). This however makes me question Blizzard's integrity somewhat. I think you'd be off center to seriously believe that KeSPA are innocent little angels in this conflict either, but blizzard has a long history of making life miserable for anyone who refuses to give them a tidy cut of their "profits" whenever it's possible. Blizzard is one of the few gaming companies that shuts down third party mod projects that utilize their IP, which is especially interesting as a huge amount of their IP is derived from WarHammer content. If Blizzard does have the moral high ground here, it's not by a huge margin.
We could easily say that all these medieval warfare with magic and orcs and elves involved is derived from Tolkien's LOTR. They still feel very different to me. I believe blizzard actually did openly say where their inspirations come from.
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On December 03 2010 16:53 Milkis wrote:
KeSPA is a nonprofit organization that grows and supports the eSports industry, but in order to create a stable environment for eSports and to promote eSports within Korea, KeSPA is allowed to pursue businesses that generate revenue.
What a bold-faced lie.
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On December 04 2010 17:18 infinitestory wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 14:44 Catalyst wrote:I readily admit not having the best grasp on all the aspects of this back-and-forth struggle, but this part here: Blizzard has commented that KeSPA and the Progame teams restrict the freedom of the players, and that Blizzard would renovate this system by raising eSports and the players in the proper way.
But, KeSPA and the Progame teams do not restrict the freedoms of the players themselves. Every player enters the Progame team only after plenty of negotiations with a contract that is unique to the player, and the player himself has complete freedom to choose where he wants to go. The Progame team provides the player with a moderate salary that follows from their contract and a stable environment where they can practice. ...it reminds me of the drama and frustrations surrounding Jaedong's departure from and return to Oz. Kespa didn't seem to live up to those words then, though that was a complicated affair as well. I don't necessarily agree with all that Blizzard is doing, but Kespa does seem to be far worse... from the thread you linked: Show nested quote +On August 28 2009 16:24 DanceCommander wrote:On August 28 2009 16:23 GTR wrote:
Am I the only one here who thinks that Jaedong leaving Starcraft won't be as detrimental as everyone thinks it will? No, but its just sad  You don't just retire after winning an OSL... Apparently, another zerg begs to differ. ON topic: I think we need to compile a thread of COLD, HARD FACTS + Explanations about the various facets of the IP Rights case. There's too likely a chance that misinformation will spread in these threads (e.g. someone posting that KeSPA doesn't allow its players to play SC2 back on Pg. 2). And there are people who don't know the difference between sales, revenue, and profits... we just need a central bank of information to consult with regards to this case. It'll make the discussions so much better, IMO. I'll make it if I find time. 
A Liquipedia article, perhaps? Linking to all the translation threads related to this issue and a timeline would be a good start.
There is too much misinformation. It really bugs me how many people think that KeSPA completely wants to ignore Blizzard's IP.
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On December 04 2010 14:33 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 14:32 rasers wrote:
srsly ur dumb? sry. but when else should this happen? they only touch this stats when he wins something and when they have 2 change the status.
so now ask urself why only nada and not the other pros? give me just 1 good reason for that.
personal hate for nada? highly doubt it. i can tell you why nada and not the other pros though the other pros are still registered on kespa's website :O
That didn't answer the question.
The question is why would KeSPA retaliate only against NaDa?
It is extremely easy to accidentally "delete" all the information related to an entity. I continuously have to diagnose this kind of problems at my job. Incorrectly changing the status of a player is more than enough to "delete" all his data, which perfectly explains the timing of the incident.
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Guys, do you know how korean SAMSUNG, KIA, DAEWOO-like corporations work? They were initiated and supported by government. There are no rich guys owning these companies and making billions each year. Every profit these companies get are invested in education, research and other stuff to improve and go further. That was the idea. South Korea is very small and thats how they stay alive. I truly believe that KESPA is working in same way.
If I was head of Blizzard/Activision I would be very happy that our product (starcraft) has became something. Is KESPA running/doing something wrong? No they don't. They are making our dream come true. All that Blizzard/Activision wants is money. Thats it. Do you think they'd do better? Lets be honest GSL is fucking failing. There is more disappointment than excitement. Maps are bullshit as well as metagame.
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On December 03 2010 19:53 Minzy wrote:Show nested quote +KeSPA is a nonprofit organization that grows and supports the eSports industry, but in order to create a stable environment for eSports and to promote eSports within Korea, KeSPA is allowed to pursue businesses that generate revenue. So KeSPA is a nonprofit organization that is allowed to make a profit. ok.
Tsk.
Profit = Revenue - Costs
It's perfectly possible to generate revenue without making a profit. It even happens to for-profit organisations.
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On December 05 2010 00:44 HollowLord wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 16:53 Milkis wrote:
KeSPA is a nonprofit organization that grows and supports the eSports industry, but in order to create a stable environment for eSports and to promote eSports within Korea, KeSPA is allowed to pursue businesses that generate revenue. What a bold-faced lie.
Your statement is libellous. Please show us an income statement of KeSPA that shows them banking a profit.
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On December 04 2010 19:22 [White]NaDa wrote:
simple facts already stated:
KeSPA's fee's are used to finance and keep running the SL and PL and the BW scene in general
actiblizzard fee would go only, and only to actiblizzard
if you cant see it yet then you are just denying whats in front of your eyes
i really hope they get over this fast enough, thank you a lot for the translation, its always good to read both sides of the argument, makes it easier to tell who's the one talking bs(not that it was difficult from the start)
I obviously have no hard facts on these numbers... but if say... KeSPA took the fees, paid first an executive board of people salaries 5-10 times higher than the average player in the leagues first and then reinvested the rest into the teams and then went on to declare themselves an NPO but refusing to disclose how they invest their money would you still think of them as being awesome if the actual numbers came out?
I'd say probably not.
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On December 05 2010 01:50 Simplistik wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 00:44 HollowLord wrote:On December 03 2010 16:53 Milkis wrote:
KeSPA is a nonprofit organization that grows and supports the eSports industry, but in order to create a stable environment for eSports and to promote eSports within Korea, KeSPA is allowed to pursue businesses that generate revenue. What a bold-faced lie. Your statement is libellous. Please show us an income statement of KeSPA that shows them banking a profit.
Has anyone actually seen KeSPA's financial records, executive salaries, etc? We keep having this argument, but we have no numbers to look at.
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Do the BW players have a bunch of quasi prostitute/groupy girls that live with them at the pro team houses? If so screw player rights.
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Nothing's changed ever since this whole fiasco got big this year. Same statements same arguments...
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EPT
