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5003 Posts
Blizzard is the communist here, not Kespa. Blizzard fans 'only argument is that "Players under Kespa are not allowed to play 2 games at a time" which is extremely weak : no player plays 2 games at a time both professionally, They are under Pro Contract and receive salary, they are tied to the company they work for, like every professional jobs in the world. If you are a professional developer working for Microsoft you are not allowed to work for Ford as a professional car seller. In the SC2 scene Blizzard don't pay the players anything and therefore the players have no tie with Blizzard, they are freelancers and can do whatever they want, but they lack a professional contract and a regular salary. Blizzard even strip the players from the right to own their rightful IP : the games they played.
I'm pretty sure the WeMade WC3 players are still associated with WeMade
in fact, I'm sure WeMade would have 100% been happy to sponsor NaDa as he went to do GSL and such.
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On December 05 2010 02:22 Mike941 wrote:
Do the BW players have a bunch of quasi prostitute/groupy girls that live with them at the pro team houses? If so screw player rights.
This isn't the fighting game scene, mate.
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On December 05 2010 01:57 Furycrab wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 19:22 [White]NaDa wrote:
simple facts already stated:
KeSPA's fee's are used to finance and keep running the SL and PL and the BW scene in general
actiblizzard fee would go only, and only to actiblizzard
if you cant see it yet then you are just denying whats in front of your eyes
i really hope they get over this fast enough, thank you a lot for the translation, its always good to read both sides of the argument, makes it easier to tell who's the one talking bs(not that it was difficult from the start) I obviously have no hard facts on these numbers... but if say... KeSPA took the fees, paid first an executive board of people salaries 5-10 times higher than the average player in the leagues first and then reinvested the rest into the teams and then went on to declare themselves an NPO but refusing to disclose how they invest their money would you still think of them as being awesome if the actual numbers came out? I'd say probably not.
Speculating that Kespa is not an NPO is the same as asserting that Blizzard is out to kill off BW. Both statements seem logical, but neither have any solid proof.
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I came up with an analogy today. Being a SC fan under Kespa is like being the son of a Mafia boss. He treats you well, gives you everything you ever wanted, you're set for life. However, deep in the back of your mind you know he got that money by killing/extorting/cheating people. With all the luxuries you have, you know your father is a low life gangster.
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On December 05 2010 04:26 JayDee_ wrote:
I came up with an analogy today. Being a SC fan under Kespa is like being the son of a Mafia boss. He treats you well, gives you everything you ever wanted, you're set for life. However, deep in the back of your mind you know he got that money by killing/extorting/cheating people. With all the luxuries you have, you know your father is a low life gangster.
I'm pretty sure everyone's tired of seeing irrelevant analogies already.
Move on.
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On December 05 2010 04:46 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 04:26 JayDee_ wrote:
I came up with an analogy today. Being a SC fan under Kespa is like being the son of a Mafia boss. He treats you well, gives you everything you ever wanted, you're set for life. However, deep in the back of your mind you know he got that money by killing/extorting/cheating people. With all the luxuries you have, you know your father is a low life gangster. I'm pretty sure everyone's tired of seeing irrelevant analogies already. Move on.
Thanks, for the daily troll. I haven't been hit by one yet.
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United States4053 Posts
On December 05 2010 04:53 JayDee_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 04:46 maybenexttime wrote:On December 05 2010 04:26 JayDee_ wrote:
I came up with an analogy today. Being a SC fan under Kespa is like being the son of a Mafia boss. He treats you well, gives you everything you ever wanted, you're set for life. However, deep in the back of your mind you know he got that money by killing/extorting/cheating people. With all the luxuries you have, you know your father is a low life gangster. I'm pretty sure everyone's tired of seeing irrelevant analogies already. Move on. Thanks, for the daily troll. I haven't been hit by one yet.
No, he's absolutely right. There is no analogy that can describe this situation correctly. It's unprecedented. I think even baller would struggle with it.
Just don't try to make analogies for anything related to the IP Rights case. It's the first of its kind.
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On December 05 2010 05:06 infinitestory wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 04:53 JayDee_ wrote:On December 05 2010 04:46 maybenexttime wrote:On December 05 2010 04:26 JayDee_ wrote:
I came up with an analogy today. Being a SC fan under Kespa is like being the son of a Mafia boss. He treats you well, gives you everything you ever wanted, you're set for life. However, deep in the back of your mind you know he got that money by killing/extorting/cheating people. With all the luxuries you have, you know your father is a low life gangster. I'm pretty sure everyone's tired of seeing irrelevant analogies already. Move on. Thanks, for the daily troll. I haven't been hit by one yet. No, he's absolutely right. There is no analogy that can describe this situation correctly. It's unprecedented. I think even baller would struggle with it. Just don't try to make analogies for anything related to the IP Rights case. It's the first of its kind.
The analogy was accurate in my opinion. It didn't present any new information, but analogies aren't designed to.
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On December 05 2010 05:31 JayDee_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 05:06 infinitestory wrote:On December 05 2010 04:53 JayDee_ wrote:On December 05 2010 04:46 maybenexttime wrote:On December 05 2010 04:26 JayDee_ wrote:
I came up with an analogy today. Being a SC fan under Kespa is like being the son of a Mafia boss. He treats you well, gives you everything you ever wanted, you're set for life. However, deep in the back of your mind you know he got that money by killing/extorting/cheating people. With all the luxuries you have, you know your father is a low life gangster. I'm pretty sure everyone's tired of seeing irrelevant analogies already. Move on. Thanks, for the daily troll. I haven't been hit by one yet. No, he's absolutely right. There is no analogy that can describe this situation correctly. It's unprecedented. I think even baller would struggle with it. Just don't try to make analogies for anything related to the IP Rights case. It's the first of its kind. The analogy was accurate in my opinion. It didn't present any new information, but analogies aren't designed to.
Your analogy sux, that is it.
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On December 05 2010 05:31 JayDee_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 05:06 infinitestory wrote:On December 05 2010 04:53 JayDee_ wrote:On December 05 2010 04:46 maybenexttime wrote:On December 05 2010 04:26 JayDee_ wrote:
I came up with an analogy today. Being a SC fan under Kespa is like being the son of a Mafia boss. He treats you well, gives you everything you ever wanted, you're set for life. However, deep in the back of your mind you know he got that money by killing/extorting/cheating people. With all the luxuries you have, you know your father is a low life gangster. I'm pretty sure everyone's tired of seeing irrelevant analogies already. Move on. Thanks, for the daily troll. I haven't been hit by one yet. No, he's absolutely right. There is no analogy that can describe this situation correctly. It's unprecedented. I think even baller would struggle with it. Just don't try to make analogies for anything related to the IP Rights case. It's the first of its kind. The analogy was accurate in my opinion. It didn't present any new information, but analogies aren't designed to.
Its accurate? your analogy is that you are assuming that there is dirt which you can't prove. Doesn't make a very good argument.
The last few pages I'm seeing a lot of the "what if KeSPA pays huge salaries to x?", "what if they aren't a nonprofit?", "why don't they want another (rival) company to audit them?", is that really what the anti-KeSPA argument has boiled down to? guess what? no company would want a rival company to audit them, whether there is dirt getting done or not. With the bullshit being tossed (by both sides), releasing information like that is just one more thing that can be twisted against you in the future (claims of mis-allocation of funds, inefficiency of operations, excuse to raising Blizzard's/Gretech's fees the following year because they want to squeeze an extra buck here and there, etc). After the bullshit Sams just said (like how they only want the equivalent of 1/5 of the fees, which is waaay off) the last thing you would willingly give out is more ammo for them. KeSPA can be audited by the government, not blizzard.
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On December 04 2010 22:53 kamikami wrote:
Blizzard is the communist here, not Kespa. Blizzard fans 'only argument is that "Players under Kespa are not allowed to play 2 games at a time" which is extremely weak : no player plays 2 games at a time both professionally, They are under Pro Contract and receive salary, they are tied to the company they work for, like every professional jobs in the world. If you are a professional developer working for Microsoft you are not allowed to work for Ford as a professional car seller. In the SC2 scene Blizzard don't pay the players anything and therefore the players have no tie with Blizzard, they are freelancers and can do whatever they want, but they lack a professional contract and a regular salary. Blizzard even strip the players from the right to own their rightful IP : the games they played.
bad argument. (About the bolded part)
I'd like you to take a look at Moon.
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On December 05 2010 06:28 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 22:53 kamikami wrote:
Blizzard is the communist here, not Kespa. Blizzard fans 'only argument is that "Players under Kespa are not allowed to play 2 games at a time" which is extremely weak : no player plays 2 games at a time both professionally, They are under Pro Contract and receive salary, they are tied to the company they work for, like every professional jobs in the world. If you are a professional developer working for Microsoft you are not allowed to work for Ford as a professional car seller. In the SC2 scene Blizzard don't pay the players anything and therefore the players have no tie with Blizzard, they are freelancers and can do whatever they want, but they lack a professional contract and a regular salary. Blizzard even strip the players from the right to own their rightful IP : the games they played.
bad argument. (About the bolded part) I'd like you to take a look at Moon.
WC3 has nowhere near the demanding schedule that BW has. Moon has no domestic leagues to play in, whereas BW progamers have very busy week-to-week schedules. A year long proleague as well as individual leagues (for those not eliminated) doesn't leave as much time to try to pursue another game professionally without neglecting the effort going into BW (which is what they are contracted for, and what they are getting paid and housed to do full time). In the end, if your employer (team) is fine with you devoting x hours of your working time into something else, then great, but not agreeing to it doesn't make your employer unreasonable/communist/etc. kamikami's argument is good.
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On December 05 2010 05:31 JayDee_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 05:06 infinitestory wrote:On December 05 2010 04:53 JayDee_ wrote:On December 05 2010 04:46 maybenexttime wrote:On December 05 2010 04:26 JayDee_ wrote:
I came up with an analogy today. Being a SC fan under Kespa is like being the son of a Mafia boss. He treats you well, gives you everything you ever wanted, you're set for life. However, deep in the back of your mind you know he got that money by killing/extorting/cheating people. With all the luxuries you have, you know your father is a low life gangster. I'm pretty sure everyone's tired of seeing irrelevant analogies already. Move on. Thanks, for the daily troll. I haven't been hit by one yet. No, he's absolutely right. There is no analogy that can describe this situation correctly. It's unprecedented. I think even baller would struggle with it. Just don't try to make analogies for anything related to the IP Rights case. It's the first of its kind. The analogy was accurate in my opinion. It didn't present any new information, but analogies aren't designed to.
Your analogy sucks in my opinion. It didn't present any new information, nor any correct information.
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The Proleague licensing business was started with the purpose of creating an industrial framework so that many more people could watch eSports and Proleague through many more platform channels that arose from changes in the media industry.
This would be funny if it wasn't tragic.
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On December 05 2010 05:54 palexhur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 05:31 JayDee_ wrote:On December 05 2010 05:06 infinitestory wrote:On December 05 2010 04:53 JayDee_ wrote:On December 05 2010 04:46 maybenexttime wrote:On December 05 2010 04:26 JayDee_ wrote:
I came up with an analogy today. Being a SC fan under Kespa is like being the son of a Mafia boss. He treats you well, gives you everything you ever wanted, you're set for life. However, deep in the back of your mind you know he got that money by killing/extorting/cheating people. With all the luxuries you have, you know your father is a low life gangster. I'm pretty sure everyone's tired of seeing irrelevant analogies already. Move on. Thanks, for the daily troll. I haven't been hit by one yet. No, he's absolutely right. There is no analogy that can describe this situation correctly. It's unprecedented. I think even baller would struggle with it. Just don't try to make analogies for anything related to the IP Rights case. It's the first of its kind. The analogy was accurate in my opinion. It didn't present any new information, but analogies aren't designed to. Your analogy sux, that is it.
Excellent argument.
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Now I'm trying not to pick any sides here, as I think both organizations have made some very idiotic moves in the past few years. However, I don't think that KeSPA is doing what they're stating in that article. Now, I don't know exactly when the negotiations have taken place during this past year, but if they truly respected Blizzard's IP rights, then they should have never started the leagues again until the negotiations between them were finalized.
Just because you offer a settlement for the rights doesn't mean the IP holder should be obligated to take it. If Blizzard doesn't want to negotiate, then it's their decision. If you respected the rights, you should respect that decision.
Starting the leagues again just probably violated their Blizzard's IP rights and much more. It was a bold and serious move that probably offended Blizzard. Now I know that KeSPA probably had concerns when the leagues would start again, but they should of waited longer, even if the fans demanded for it. Now they got themselves in a probably far worse position than before.
As for Blizzard, I agree that their terms and IP rights control has gotten too far. I don't really know if the terms and conditions would be suitable for a large e-sports organization as KeSPA, because some of the terms really limits to what they want to do. However, as I go back to the beginning, it is Blizzard's game and IP, so it is their terms and conditions you have to abide by if you want to use their rights commercially. Sucks though, but it can get ugly if you don't respect and uphold it.
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I'm happy with GOM. GOM worked out a deal and got it done. Why can't KESPA? Instead KESPA is trying to infringe on blizzards rights. KESPA doesn't have a leg to stand on.
That is the bottom line.
Anytime someone accepts what you said and then says. But
Which is clearly said
But because recognizing the IP rights shouldn't be a chain that constrains the organizations involved via license fees, demanding complete ownership rights to derivative works, and to even demanding auditing rights to KeSPA, KeSPA has repeatedly been in discussions to try and reach a common ground where both sides can agree with with regards to IP rights acknowledgement.
This clearly states that KESPA doesn't respect blizzards rights. There is no discussion on the IP rights. Its clearly blizzards. KESPA as an organization needs to come to an agreement with Blizzard or they are done. Its really that simple. Everything else is just bullshit and attempting to get an emotional or opinionated response from the community which doesn't matter in the case of IP rights.
Especially considering some people such as spunky referring to KESPA as communism... I believe it was...
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On December 05 2010 09:19 JayDee_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 05:54 palexhur wrote:On December 05 2010 05:31 JayDee_ wrote:On December 05 2010 05:06 infinitestory wrote:On December 05 2010 04:53 JayDee_ wrote:On December 05 2010 04:46 maybenexttime wrote:On December 05 2010 04:26 JayDee_ wrote:
I came up with an analogy today. Being a SC fan under Kespa is like being the son of a Mafia boss. He treats you well, gives you everything you ever wanted, you're set for life. However, deep in the back of your mind you know he got that money by killing/extorting/cheating people. With all the luxuries you have, you know your father is a low life gangster. I'm pretty sure everyone's tired of seeing irrelevant analogies already. Move on. Thanks, for the daily troll. I haven't been hit by one yet. No, he's absolutely right. There is no analogy that can describe this situation correctly. It's unprecedented. I think even baller would struggle with it. Just don't try to make analogies for anything related to the IP Rights case. It's the first of its kind. The analogy was accurate in my opinion. It didn't present any new information, but analogies aren't designed to. Your analogy sux, that is it. Excellent argument.
Spice analogy then
Who controls the spice controls the universe
spice = IP
universe = Money/Profit(REVENUES!)/Best players playing their leagues/advertisments!/money/money/money ..
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@Jay_Dee
If you are an SCV getting bombarded by Guardians (Moopie), Tanks (Amnesia) and a myriad of other units with none coming to your defence. I think it would be a good idea to take a good look at yourself (and your argument) and see if there is anything wrong.
Personally speaking, i think your argument/analogy is not good. It is basically your personal opinion on a highly debatable matter, flavoured with even more of your own personal biases.
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On December 05 2010 06:36 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 06:28 zhurai wrote:On December 04 2010 22:53 kamikami wrote:
Blizzard is the communist here, not Kespa. Blizzard fans 'only argument is that "Players under Kespa are not allowed to play 2 games at a time" which is extremely weak : no player plays 2 games at a time both professionally, They are under Pro Contract and receive salary, they are tied to the company they work for, like every professional jobs in the world. If you are a professional developer working for Microsoft you are not allowed to work for Ford as a professional car seller. In the SC2 scene Blizzard don't pay the players anything and therefore the players have no tie with Blizzard, they are freelancers and can do whatever they want, but they lack a professional contract and a regular salary. Blizzard even strip the players from the right to own their rightful IP : the games they played.
bad argument. (About the bolded part) I'd like you to take a look at Moon. WC3 has nowhere near the demanding schedule that BW has. Moon has no domestic leagues to play in, whereas BW progamers have very busy week-to-week schedules. A year long proleague as well as individual leagues (for those not eliminated) doesn't leave as much time to try to pursue another game professionally without neglecting the effort going into BW (which is what they are contracted for, and what they are getting paid and housed to do full time). In the end, if your employer (team) is fine with you devoting x hours of your working time into something else, then great, but not agreeing to it doesn't make your employer unreasonable/communist/etc. kamikami's argument is good.
No one has said players should be able to freely chose game while maintaining salary, where did you get this from? KeSPA is however banning anyone who wants to give SC2 a go for 3 years, how on earth is that reasonable?
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EPT
