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On December 05 2010 12:11 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 06:36 moopie wrote:On December 05 2010 06:28 zhurai wrote:On December 04 2010 22:53 kamikami wrote:
Blizzard is the communist here, not Kespa. Blizzard fans 'only argument is that "Players under Kespa are not allowed to play 2 games at a time" which is extremely weak : no player plays 2 games at a time both professionally, They are under Pro Contract and receive salary, they are tied to the company they work for, like every professional jobs in the world. If you are a professional developer working for Microsoft you are not allowed to work for Ford as a professional car seller. In the SC2 scene Blizzard don't pay the players anything and therefore the players have no tie with Blizzard, they are freelancers and can do whatever they want, but they lack a professional contract and a regular salary. Blizzard even strip the players from the right to own their rightful IP : the games they played.
bad argument. (About the bolded part) I'd like you to take a look at Moon. WC3 has nowhere near the demanding schedule that BW has. Moon has no domestic leagues to play in, whereas BW progamers have very busy week-to-week schedules. A year long proleague as well as individual leagues (for those not eliminated) doesn't leave as much time to try to pursue another game professionally without neglecting the effort going into BW (which is what they are contracted for, and what they are getting paid and housed to do full time). In the end, if your employer (team) is fine with you devoting x hours of your working time into something else, then great, but not agreeing to it doesn't make your employer unreasonable/communist/etc. kamikami's argument is good. No one has said players should be able to freely chose game while maintaining salary, where did you get this from? KeSPA is however banning anyone who wants to give SC2 a go for 3 years, how on earth is that reasonable?
If you are talking about NaDa's retirement announcement, it came as a result of him choosing to not re-sign with WeMade and was a generic retirement deal. The terms of the retirement announcement were the same terms that apply to any progamer that does not re-sign with a team (and thus loses his progaming license), the 3-year break from KeSPA affiliated teams applies to all retiring progamers, not just NaDa (or those transferring to SC2). You can go look at KeSPA's retirement notices and see they are all the same, regardless of players transferring to SC2 or not. As for why the terms are what they are, I don't know, they aren't what I would have used but it is what it is.
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On December 05 2010 12:45 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 12:11 Longshank wrote:On December 05 2010 06:36 moopie wrote:On December 05 2010 06:28 zhurai wrote:On December 04 2010 22:53 kamikami wrote:
Blizzard is the communist here, not Kespa. Blizzard fans 'only argument is that "Players under Kespa are not allowed to play 2 games at a time" which is extremely weak : no player plays 2 games at a time both professionally, They are under Pro Contract and receive salary, they are tied to the company they work for, like every professional jobs in the world. If you are a professional developer working for Microsoft you are not allowed to work for Ford as a professional car seller. In the SC2 scene Blizzard don't pay the players anything and therefore the players have no tie with Blizzard, they are freelancers and can do whatever they want, but they lack a professional contract and a regular salary. Blizzard even strip the players from the right to own their rightful IP : the games they played.
bad argument. (About the bolded part) I'd like you to take a look at Moon. WC3 has nowhere near the demanding schedule that BW has. Moon has no domestic leagues to play in, whereas BW progamers have very busy week-to-week schedules. A year long proleague as well as individual leagues (for those not eliminated) doesn't leave as much time to try to pursue another game professionally without neglecting the effort going into BW (which is what they are contracted for, and what they are getting paid and housed to do full time). In the end, if your employer (team) is fine with you devoting x hours of your working time into something else, then great, but not agreeing to it doesn't make your employer unreasonable/communist/etc. kamikami's argument is good. No one has said players should be able to freely chose game while maintaining salary, where did you get this from? KeSPA is however banning anyone who wants to give SC2 a go for 3 years, how on earth is that reasonable? If you are talking about NaDa's retirement announcement, it came as a result of him choosing to not re-sign with WeMade and was a generic retirement deal. The terms of the retirement announcement were the same terms that apply to any progamer that does not re-sign with a team (and thus loses his progaming license), the 3-year break from KeSPA affiliated teams applies to all retiring progamers, not just NaDa (or those transferring to SC2). You can go look at KeSPA's retirement notices and see they are all the same, regardless of players transferring to SC2 or not. As for why the terms are what they are, I don't know, they aren't what I would have used but it is what it is.
I think he was talking about the (false) rumor that players are altogether banned from touching SC2 even during their time off and holidays, which have been going around some time in the past. It is, however, a false rumor and i have no idea how it has come about that people are taking it as facts now.
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konadora
Singapore66158 Posts
On December 05 2010 06:28 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 22:53 kamikami wrote:
Blizzard is the communist here, not Kespa. Blizzard fans 'only argument is that "Players under Kespa are not allowed to play 2 games at a time" which is extremely weak : no player plays 2 games at a time both professionally, They are under Pro Contract and receive salary, they are tied to the company they work for, like every professional jobs in the world. If you are a professional developer working for Microsoft you are not allowed to work for Ford as a professional car seller. In the SC2 scene Blizzard don't pay the players anything and therefore the players have no tie with Blizzard, they are freelancers and can do whatever they want, but they lack a professional contract and a regular salary. Blizzard even strip the players from the right to own their rightful IP : the games they played.
bad argument. (About the bolded part) I'd like you to take a look at Moon.
Nope, it's correct.
Moon's profession is still a WC3 player. SC2 is his "side-hobby" or "off-season" game which he just happens to have enough skill to participate in without being fully dedicated to training for.
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On December 04 2010 00:22 Hot_Bid wrote:
There are lot of well-accepted reasons why IP exists and the benefits it brings. I doubt anyone feels it's reasonable to just counter Blizzard's assertion of their rights in SC2 with "why have IP rights at all?" That's nonsense.
Gross oversimplification, IP rights is a very broad subject and many parts of it are controversial at best. The US is at one extreme, I am not sure where in the spectrum Korea is at.
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On December 05 2010 12:45 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 12:11 Longshank wrote:On December 05 2010 06:36 moopie wrote:On December 05 2010 06:28 zhurai wrote:On December 04 2010 22:53 kamikami wrote:
Blizzard is the communist here, not Kespa. Blizzard fans 'only argument is that "Players under Kespa are not allowed to play 2 games at a time" which is extremely weak : no player plays 2 games at a time both professionally, They are under Pro Contract and receive salary, they are tied to the company they work for, like every professional jobs in the world. If you are a professional developer working for Microsoft you are not allowed to work for Ford as a professional car seller. In the SC2 scene Blizzard don't pay the players anything and therefore the players have no tie with Blizzard, they are freelancers and can do whatever they want, but they lack a professional contract and a regular salary. Blizzard even strip the players from the right to own their rightful IP : the games they played.
bad argument. (About the bolded part) I'd like you to take a look at Moon. WC3 has nowhere near the demanding schedule that BW has. Moon has no domestic leagues to play in, whereas BW progamers have very busy week-to-week schedules. A year long proleague as well as individual leagues (for those not eliminated) doesn't leave as much time to try to pursue another game professionally without neglecting the effort going into BW (which is what they are contracted for, and what they are getting paid and housed to do full time). In the end, if your employer (team) is fine with you devoting x hours of your working time into something else, then great, but not agreeing to it doesn't make your employer unreasonable/communist/etc. kamikami's argument is good. No one has said players should be able to freely chose game while maintaining salary, where did you get this from? KeSPA is however banning anyone who wants to give SC2 a go for 3 years, how on earth is that reasonable? If you are talking about NaDa's retirement announcement, it came as a result of him choosing to not re-sign with WeMade and was a generic retirement deal. The terms of the retirement announcement were the same terms that apply to any progamer that does not re-sign with a team (and thus loses his progaming license), the 3-year break from KeSPA affiliated teams applies to all retiring progamers, not just NaDa (or those transferring to SC2). You can go look at KeSPA's retirement notices and see they are all the same, regardless of players transferring to SC2 or not. As for why the terms are what they are, I don't know, they aren't what I would have used but it is what it is.
I wasn't talking about NaDa specifically, but sure it applies to him as well. I was thinking about the fact that any BW pro who wishes to give SC2 a shot won't be allowed back to BW for 3 years. They are forced to retire, which is nonsensical and moronic in itself. Call it what you want the effect is the same.
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I don't think KeSPA has arguments that are going to hold up in court during a legal battle with Blizzard, should that occur. The fact of the matter is that Blizzard employees made all of the artwork seen in the game of Starcraft, and every time a match is shown on Television, that is Blizzard's artwork playing on the screen. If they didn't give KeSPA permission to use it, then KeSPA simply can't make the claim that what they're doing is legal.
Regardless of whoever might be right or wrong from a moral standpoint, I feel like it's pretty clear from a legal standpoint that KeSPA will lose in a court battle. The real question is, how benevolent will Blizzard be with its IP once it finally secures it? Will Blizzard allow KeSPA to keep running Starcraft leagues while sharing the profit, or will they take it away from KeSPA entirely?
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United States7483 Posts
In theory, in reality a lot of profits for large NPO's go into paying high salaries for CEO's etc. While most of their work force is volunteer and upaid. Red Cross is a perefect example of this where a large majority of donated money doesn't go to help anyone, it goes to pay salaries of people who never steep foot out of an office building...or to pay for commericals asking for more money.
Kespa started out largely for the players but it's well known over time kespa advocated less and less for players and more and more for kespa's control of players. A lot of kespa's constraints on players are absolutely ridiculous, the reason kespa is threatend by what blizzard is doing here is because they are about to lose control of the starcraft esport in korea to the group being put together being supported by blizzard, players, and gom.
If they want to broadcast and 'profit' from blizzards product they should pay blizzard to do it, it's no different then ABC, NBC, FOX, paying the NFL to broadcast their games to make commerical profit off them.
Crying were a NPO is a load, the top people in kespa make nice comfy salaries to just oversee starcraft and they are afraid they are going to lose their bank roll, or expose their corruption by agreeing to blizzards terms.
Oh I wasn't arguing that KeSPA is a good NPO or even really an NPO, I was merely stating what the classification of an NPO meant in the legal sense, and what the theory behind it is.
And salaries and employee pay qualifies as 'costs', and therefore isn't a usage of profits.
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On December 05 2010 15:43 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 12:45 moopie wrote:On December 05 2010 12:11 Longshank wrote:On December 05 2010 06:36 moopie wrote:On December 05 2010 06:28 zhurai wrote:On December 04 2010 22:53 kamikami wrote:
Blizzard is the communist here, not Kespa. Blizzard fans 'only argument is that "Players under Kespa are not allowed to play 2 games at a time" which is extremely weak : no player plays 2 games at a time both professionally, They are under Pro Contract and receive salary, they are tied to the company they work for, like every professional jobs in the world. If you are a professional developer working for Microsoft you are not allowed to work for Ford as a professional car seller. In the SC2 scene Blizzard don't pay the players anything and therefore the players have no tie with Blizzard, they are freelancers and can do whatever they want, but they lack a professional contract and a regular salary. Blizzard even strip the players from the right to own their rightful IP : the games they played.
bad argument. (About the bolded part) I'd like you to take a look at Moon. WC3 has nowhere near the demanding schedule that BW has. Moon has no domestic leagues to play in, whereas BW progamers have very busy week-to-week schedules. A year long proleague as well as individual leagues (for those not eliminated) doesn't leave as much time to try to pursue another game professionally without neglecting the effort going into BW (which is what they are contracted for, and what they are getting paid and housed to do full time). In the end, if your employer (team) is fine with you devoting x hours of your working time into something else, then great, but not agreeing to it doesn't make your employer unreasonable/communist/etc. kamikami's argument is good. No one has said players should be able to freely chose game while maintaining salary, where did you get this from? KeSPA is however banning anyone who wants to give SC2 a go for 3 years, how on earth is that reasonable? If you are talking about NaDa's retirement announcement, it came as a result of him choosing to not re-sign with WeMade and was a generic retirement deal. The terms of the retirement announcement were the same terms that apply to any progamer that does not re-sign with a team (and thus loses his progaming license), the 3-year break from KeSPA affiliated teams applies to all retiring progamers, not just NaDa (or those transferring to SC2). You can go look at KeSPA's retirement notices and see they are all the same, regardless of players transferring to SC2 or not. As for why the terms are what they are, I don't know, they aren't what I would have used but it is what it is. I wasn't talking about NaDa specifically, but sure it applies to him as well. I was thinking about the fact that any BW pro who wishes to give SC2 a shot won't be allowed back to BW for 3 years. They are forced to retire, which is nonsensical and moronic in itself. Call it what you want the effect is the same.
False. None of the former MBCGame BW players who switched to SC2 have retired. They are still registered with Kespa. In fact they are still on Kespa's December rankings. Many so-called "retired" progamers in fact keep their licenses (like Nal_ra) because once you officially give up your license and retire, it's hard to get it back again. It's not a new rule they invented to deter players from switching to SC2.
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Blizzard (coughActivisioncough) wants way too big a piece of the pie, but Kespa isn't without fault either.
Regardless of how it turns out, the end result will set a pretty huge precedent for future esports attempts.
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ehh It all comes down to greed whitch is what I think hurts the pro gaming scene the most.
All companies involved just want as much money as possible and only support esports in order to get that money. I do not think that because blizzard created starcraft they should get a piece of sponsorship money. Hell blizzard makes litterrally over 64 MILLION dollars a MONTH Way more than that accually but I did the math on WOW players once and it came up to just over 64 million dollars a month in subscriptions and this was a year or two ago there are far more wow subscribers now. And when you consider all the merchandising like action figures posters wow card games plushies etc etc I mean the company makes ubsurd amounts of money.
They need to relax on the pro gaming scene and stop demanding money in the end they will make a hell of alot more if they relax a bit. If online gaming became as big in the US as in korea imagine the sheer volumes of cash they would make. The problem therein is that blizzard makes outrages demands of anyone profiting whatsoever from SC. I have heard rumors that they wanted a percentage of the money professionals were paid by their sponsors, like some ridiculous amount 30-40%. *shrug* Blizzard was an amazing company until they sold out and went totally corporate.
Blizzard just needs to back off and allow esports to grow, it will eb alot more beneficial for them int he long run
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No matter how much deed KeSPA have done in the past, their goal has strayed over the years. Their passions has burnt out, and now just become a money/power hunger organization that only cared about itself.
So I'd like to see KeSPA to be gone, as replacements will eventually take over. With new guys on the block, there will be more opportunity for everyone. No doubt we will see a greater result, if not the same.
Since majority of Korean want it gone anyway, why not just let it go, surely they understand the scene more than us, it is like choosing governament.
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Jeez. Its like choosing between a rock and a hard place. Kespa has been a terrible organization for quite some time. And its complete bullshit when they say they care about the players. They care about what they recieve out of it, and their treatment of players is ridiculous.
But on the other hand, Blizzard isnt the same 'ol Blizzard. Since Activision bought them they are just money hungry. They are very shady now, compared to when they were so chill and actually cared about the community and giving them what they want. I mean they've taken away SOOO much just so they can sell as many copies as possible. But will turn around and claim that they value Esports.
Ugh, time to facepalm.
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Thanks for translating =)
Silly koreans, they had the chance to kidnap Paul Sams and force Blizzards hand in the negotiations!
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United States238 Posts
Seems KeSPA posted additional information yesterday. This new information includes more detail on the actual KeSPA's income from licensing fee and what they did with it.
So here you go:
Source is: http://www.playxp.com/sc2/news/view.php?article_id=2416325
KeSPA spoke yesterday (Dec. 5th), that "[KeSPA] finalized broadcasting licensing with IEG as the broadcasting business in 2007, and received 1,700,000,000 won for 3 years of broadcasting. But, 1,500,000,000 won were invested in broadcasting production purposes for OGN and MBCGame over the 3 years, and whatever remained were invested in events and promotions. As a result, profits gained through the leagues are virtually nil. Even before we can fully operate e-sports market comfortably, the "ridiculous licensing fee" requested by Blizzard / Gretech can completely shake down the very roots of e-sports market."
In addition, they said, for the rights of viewers and the growth of e-sport in Korea, KeSPA and broadcasting companies will always actively take part in the negotiations.
KeSPA showed their operating costs and income over the years of 2007, 2008, and 2009 as follows:
* In 2007 *
Profit from broadcasting license: 500,000,000 won
Broadcasting support for OGN: - 250,000,000 won
Broadcasting support for MBC: - 250,000,000 won
* In 2008 *
Profit from broadcasting license: 600,000,000 won
Broadcasting support for OGN: - 250,000,000 won
Broadcasting support for MBC: - 250,000,000 won
* In 2009 *
Profit from broadcasting license: 600,000,000 won
Broadcasting support for OGN: - 250,000,000 won
Broadcasting support for MBC: - 250,000,000 won
* Throughout 2007, 2008, and 2009, total of - 200,000,000 won was spent for marketing and promotion *
** Total tally **
Profit: 1,700,000,000 won
Broadcasting support cost: - 1,500,000,000 won
Marketing and promotion: - 200,000,000 won
Hmm.
Korean netizens in general saying the same thing you've heard that they have been: "lol kespa"
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Why would anyone even support Kespa during all this?
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Because they enjoy watching proBW.
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>< wants to rage against blizzzard again but what ever <3 kespa
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On December 06 2010 12:37 Lil.Sassy wrote:
Why would anyone even support Kespa during all this?
Because it governs the only current successful e-sports structure known to us right now?
While it may be in Blizzard's legal rights to do it, the morality of it is a huge issue.
KeSPA doesn't even seem interested in SC2, so I don't know, the argument that Blizzard is trying to protect SC2 doesn't seen valid to me, other than the fact that it wants SC2 on the primetime TV slots (Good luck with that though as you just sued the two TV corporations airing Starcraft). If KeSPA suddenly went out and started hosting SC2 tournaments without Blizzard's consent, then I would support Blizzard fully because it is their new game and they have to protect it. However, why can't Blizzard let BW slide? Threatening the scene that has existed for 10 years? The only e-sports to be shown on national TV? The backlash they are going to get if the scene crumbles? (assuming Koreans haven't all completely switched over to SC2 already).
I sorta feel that the Koreans take Starcraft for granted, I mean they've had it going for them for years, I don't think they feel that it's going to change, but the potential for it to die as soon as KeSPA loses is there. But they are still clinging on to past wrongdoings by KeSPA at the moment. Kinda like how we may criticize our own government while praising another country's.
If Koreans knew something we didn't, wouldn't someone have stepped up by now with that kind of information for Milkis or Selith to dig up?
Also, I have mixed feelings about people arguing about the rights of the players. KeSPA holds fair tournaments as far as I know, and after reading the comments of many people in the BoxeR thread, who seem to believe that e-sports is all about protecting star players at the expense of other players to increase exposure/viewership... lets just say I was pretty disappointed when the thread got closed.
Do people think Blizzard can do better? I'm no too confident about that. Because everything about them in the new games WoW and SC2 seems to point to them doing everything in their power to pull casuals in and tailor the product to fit them, catering to the "bigger audience". Will e-sports fit into this business model? Because I'd feel rather uneasy if it wasn't.
Either way... what I've said is not 100% right, but that's how I feel about the situation at the moment. Hope BW pulls through, and maybe this will give them incentive to expand MBC/OGN channels worldwide, we already have KBS and arirang here.
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Canada11349 Posts
On December 06 2010 13:02 IntoTheEmo wrote:
If KeSPA suddenly went out and started hosting SC2 tournaments without Blizzard's consent, then I would support Blizzard fully because it is their new game and they have to protect it. However, why can't Blizzard let BW slide? Threatening the scene that has existed for 10 years? The only e-sports to be shown on national TV? The backlash they are going to get if the scene crumbles? (assuming Koreans haven't all completely switched over to SC2 already).
I sorta feel that the Koreans take Starcraft for granted, I mean they've had it going for them for years, I don't think they feel that it's going to change, but the potential for it to die as soon as KeSPA loses is there. But they are still clinging on to past wrongdoings by KeSPA at the moment. Kinda like how we may criticize our own government while praising another country's.
If Koreans knew something we didn't, wouldn't someone have stepped up by now with that kind of information for Milkis or Selith to dig up?
The thing is KESPA's arguments would transfer to SC2. I think Blizzard is interested in the BW scene, but even if they didn't it's easier for them to use BW as the legal battle ground before someone like KESPA jumps in to the SC2 scene and says that IP doesn't mean what you think it means and we can sell broadcasting right without your permission. Pre-emptive if you will
I'm still very hesitant to dismiss the Koreans opinions of KESPA as taking things for granted as though we on the outside have a better picture of how the BW scene.
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EPT
