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On November 14 2010 20:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:
I apparently havent heard that KeSPA invested all of the money back into the leagues. But, this confuses me... why did the leagues have to pay KeSPA if it was just going to be invested into their own leagues? Why could they not invest it themselves? If they did this, then the whole mess wouldve been avoided in the first place since Blizzard only hopped on KeSPA's case when they started to force the purchase of broadcasting rights from them.
Hi this is the source :
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=164545
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=164545
"KeSPA is reinvesting all revenue made from the sale of broadcasting rights into the operation of leagues."
"After we began this business in 2007, all of the revenue from broadcasting rights sales and Proleague sponsorships have been spent on the operation of Proleague. The sale of broadcasting rights to IEG in 2007 brought in 1.7 billion won over a three year contract. The broadcasting stations OnGameNet and MBCGame each paid IEG 600 million won to be able to broadcast for that duration, a total of 1.2 billion won. KeSPA then reinvested 250 million won and 500 million won respectively in OnGameNet and MBCGame in annual production costs, a total of 1.5 billion won."
They didn't reinvest all the money to OGN/MBC, they kept one part of it for Proleague, which is still in OGN/MBC interest since they are the ones who broadcast and profit from ProLeague.
On November 14 2010 20:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Also, in regards to the lawsuit, why would korea back KeSPA and not back the broadcast stations? If they were to back one, they would logically back the other under the same premise... so why would blizzard have any gain in how they approach the lawsuit? If OGN loses then KeSPA would have logically also lost, if OGN wins then KeSPA also wouldve won.
Kespa is created under the approval of the Korean Ministry of Culture, so the gov has a solid reason to back them. OGN/MBC in the other hand are private companies and it will be unnatural for the government to actively protect them in a lawsuit.
I don't want to continue discussing this matter either, you are right let time decide how it will turn out.
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Everyone needs to come to grips with reality. Kespa and OGN/MBC have basically been shitting on Blizzard for a while now, and while I love everything about the pro scene and how it operates, I have lost all respect for those organizations. All Blizzard is trying to do is protect their rights; the difference between e-sports and athletic sports is that e-sports are based around someone's intellectual property. Intellectual property comes with royalties; that's just how it works.
These comments about Blizzard trying to kill off BroodWar are almost too stupid to address. Why the fuck would Blizzard want to destroy all the buzz around one of their games? Believe it or not, they're pretty intelligent (unlike most of the people trashing them here). They know there is a decent crowd of fans who still prefer BroodWar to SC2, and they have no intention of slapping all those fans in the face. The fact that all this is going on during the launch of SC2 is a coincidence.
I'm 100% behind Blizzard/Gretech here, and I think they're being perfectly reasonable. Of course they want control over the intellectual property. It's Blizzard's fucking game. Who in here really believes that it would EVER be in Blizzard's best interest to abuse their rights in order to damage e-sports? The 1-year part doesn't concern me at all; as stated before it's just a way of testing the water, and they will probably be able to put longer, more solid contracts in place later on.
The fact is, everyone needs to wake up from this fairy-tale land and understand that every sport goes corporate when it goes big. E-sports is at a point where it can become huge, but if that's going to happen it needs to be done right. If OGN/MBC can't afford the completely reasonable offer that's been made, then they need to get their shit together and start moving some money. I hate to say it because I love the OSL/MSL, but corporate sports has no place for this kind of behavior.
</rant>
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@ Ferago
Read around the forums a little.. There are answers (or rebuttals) to all of your points and more. Plus everything you have posted are based purely on your personal feelings. You should bank arguments on certain facts (i.e. ABC had happened, therefore i infer that DEF is their intention and XYZ is the outcome that will likely take place in the future)
PS: These comments about Blizzard trying to kill off BroodWar are almost too stupid to address. Patronizing comments like these will do nothing outside of sparking needless negative confrontational attitudes, i suggest you cut down on these.
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@ ffreakk
Read around the forums a little.... yourself. There are answers(or rebuttal) to all of your points and more. Plus 90% of the pro kespa posts are based purely on their personal feelings. YOU should bank arguments on certain facts aka the very reasonable price, 1 year is reasonable, especially considering they are negotiating with a company that has said fuck you the past 3 years.
Patronizing comments like the one you just made do nothing except make you look like a douche. I suggest you cut down on these, and I should prolly cut down on them myself, but your post just pissed me off, and the majority of the OMG THEY WANT TO END BW POSTS as well, yeah... totally in Blizzards bests interests to kill the e-sports scene on their own game... and totally weird for them to expect to get the credit for the game they made....
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You call that reasonable?
Some people really ought to do more searching. Getting tired of repeating myself. Ignorance is bliss. Some people, just wow. If there is one thing Blizzard and KeSPA have agreed on it's that their should be a fee for the IP rights, as for the rest of the terms including price. No.
There is a search function for a reason. If you want to post on the matter, it might be advisable to read up on the threads before posting. Seriously.
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Estonia4505 Posts
On November 14 2010 20:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 20:07 kamikami wrote:On November 14 2010 19:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:
KeSPA is not necessarily evil, they are wrong though. They had no right to sell broadcast rights to TV broadcasters when they were previously broadcasting without paying KeSPA. In addition, the fact that if they dont pay then they get no players to broadcast kind of puts a strangle on them, it forces the contract.
I think you didn't follow the latest news in this issue (search teamliquid). Kespa took the money from OGN/MBC and invested it back to OGN/MBC for their Starleagues, the part of the money that is not invested back it used to maintain/improve Proleague - which is good for OGN/MBC interest because they are the ones who broadcast Proleague too. That is why OGN/MBC accepted Kespa's offer and not Blizzard's offer, because the terms aren't as ridiculous as Blizzard's. If they are pressured by Kespa they should have sided with Blizzard/Gretech already. On November 14 2010 19:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Also, a court (particularly the korean courts, given that they should be wanting to protect e-sports) is very likely to intervene and protect you if the contract that appears after this year contract is over turns out to be absurd. As of right now, the korean courts see that gretech/blizzard have given them a reasonable offer that is comparable if not better than their current contract with KeSPA (the only thing that isnt better is the length, but OGN/MBC paid 8 times more 3 years ago for that 3 year contract). I mean, seriously... there is such a thing where a contract is too absurd and a government would step in to protect a national sport.
A contract that gives Blizzard absolute control over the scene is absurd, and as you said, the gov is likely to step in to protect their sport. Do you wonder why Blizzard didn't sue Kespa but the broadcasting stations ? Kespa recently says "as if we cannot win a court battle against a mere game company", strongly implying that their have the gov as their back, so Blizzard has no choice but to put down the broadcasting stations (after several attempts to pull them to their side). On November 14 2010 19:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Last I checked, having an actual global audience is quite a bit more of a global attempt than never having a real global audience and only a local audience via TV (even if that local audience is large, its not global). They did have Chinese audience. They don't care about the Western world because the West has no interest in BW whatsoever. SC2 is new and sparks some interests in the West, if SC2 is in the hand of the e-sport department of the Korean Ministry of Culture, it is sure that they will spread that game to the West too (it's easy, set up a stream, invite some good players, they already did that in BW). Blizzard did that for the sake of selling more SC2 in the West, their intention is not even pure at all. When the West lost interest in SC2 (given the attitude of westerners toward gaming this is likely), they will simply give up. Get the game on TV is the most crucial point for a game to become a sport, BW would not become a sport if the chairman (or CEO) of OGN didn't try to broadcast a match on TV in the first place. Trying to sue the broadcasting stations is the most stupid move in my opinion. I apparently havent heard that KeSPA invested all of the money back into the leagues. But, this confuses me... why did the leagues have to pay KeSPA if it was just going to be invested into their own leagues? Why could they not invest it themselves? If they did this, then the whole mess wouldve been avoided in the first place since Blizzard only hopped on KeSPA's case when they started to force the purchase of broadcasting rights from them. Also, in regards to the lawsuit, why would korea back KeSPA and not back the broadcast stations? If they were to back one, they would logically back the other under the same premise... so why would blizzard have any gain in how they approach the lawsuit? If OGN loses then KeSPA would have logically also lost, if OGN wins then KeSPA also wouldve won. Its also not just the western world... yes NA has a lot of people, but the EU is also a part of this global aspect of e-sports, and the EU in particular has been fairly good with it in certain areas. On an aside, I am questioning my own sources on the costs that KeSPA forced onto OGN/MBC, as I have seen some other posts mention 1.7 billion won for 3 years... Anyway, I dont really have anything more to say on this topic... time will tell and nothing that I say will change anybodies mind. I have tried many times in the past and this is getting just as annoying to discuss as lots of other things that I have stopped discussing.
Why not invest it themselves? I don't know for sure, but OGN and MBC are the only ones receiving any direct revenue from it (they get payed for selling advertising spots between games), instead of the PR the other firms receive. I guess that's why they are expected to carry a bit more of a burden. Would make sense of me.
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On November 14 2010 22:46 Varth wrote:
OMG THEY WANT TO END BW POSTS as well, yeah... totally in Blizzards bests interests to kill the e-sports scene on their own game...
Why wouldn't it be? It's not like they get anything from the BW scene. While I won't say that that is what they want, it's undeniable that it's more beneficial for them if the current BW scene was not around anymore if they want to sell more copies SC2. Selling games is their primary business, not e-sports.
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On November 14 2010 02:32 kamikami wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 01:57 exeprime wrote:
The anti-blizzard bias here is palpable. The terms are quite normal and reasonable, I fail to see why everyone is so outraged. The terms are extremely unreasonable. Wake up !!!! - 1 year duration contract means that Blizz can end the entire industry whenever they want, it is a freaking industry with many jobs involved, not just some small business. - 50:50 split of broastcasting ownership means that the players/teams/mapmakers don't even have one bit of ownership on what they created. - Everything must be approved by Blizz means that everyone in the industry is Blizz's slaves and Blizz maintains absolute control over the scene - which is shit considering this game has become a sport under the government's approval, there is no way it can be controlled by one foreign company. - And many other smaller things... Actually SC2 players and mapmakers are victims of Blizz's greed too : The EULA states that every game they play belong to Blizz, every maps they make belongs to Blizz, and every broastcasts/vods they make belong to Blizz. Blizz can terminate a player's account for no reason and steal the 60$ whenever they want. They change some terms in Korea because only in that country that the government takes gaming seriously but basically SC2 is not even a fair trade for the player despite its high potential to grow into a mature sport (it won't if Blizz continue to maintain absolute control like that). Battle.Net 2.0 are created with the ultimate purpose to control every people who play the game, every mapmakers who create map for the game, and every tournaments of the game. ALL BELONGS TO THEM. SC2 players are too obsessed with the game that they don't take those issues seriously at all, if SC2 is not "liberated" from Blizz in the future I failed to see how it will evolve into a mature spectator sport. (even now Blizz is suing the 2 only esport television channels, so in the future they can only broadcasts SC2 through internet streams lol, not to mention they go against the government for that). We BW fans have no problem with SC2, but we have problems with Blizz and their greed (omg they make "greed is good" a cheat code for their game, how can people argue against that).
I know this is an older post but I feel like it exemplifies a lot of the points I've heard made against Blizzard.
You are treating the whole situation as if it is a doomsday scenario. Why would Blizzard shut down the whole korean e-sports scene? What good does it do them?
Now, I agree the terms seem to be a bit expensive for an industry that is reported to not be making exorbitant amounts of money, but that is really the crux of the legal argument.
All this stuff about squashing BW and hording broadcasts and rights is ridiculous and is born out of unfounded fears.
The only argument I can imagine holding any water is that they might want to literally shut down BW to promote SC2. But if that was the case, why are they going through all this trouble? Why not claim that they want all broadcasts and tournys shut down? Because they don't want to look like bad guys? Obviously not since everyone is through the roof already over the current state.
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Reported by who though? They broadcast on two major stations in SK, how could they *NOT* be making a nice amount of money.
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Sorry im only at page 4 of this thread.
I cant find how the 50/50 split on "Ownership Rights: The ownership of the broadcasting material created under this contract will be split 50:50 between the Broadcasting station and Gretech/Blizzard." applies to players houses, training teams, etc.
It applies only to elements being broadcasted, so how can you make that leap?
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On November 15 2010 02:47 Bijan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 02:32 kamikami wrote:On November 14 2010 01:57 exeprime wrote:
The anti-blizzard bias here is palpable. The terms are quite normal and reasonable, I fail to see why everyone is so outraged. The terms are extremely unreasonable. Wake up !!!! - 1 year duration contract means that Blizz can end the entire industry whenever they want, it is a freaking industry with many jobs involved, not just some small business. - 50:50 split of broastcasting ownership means that the players/teams/mapmakers don't even have one bit of ownership on what they created. - Everything must be approved by Blizz means that everyone in the industry is Blizz's slaves and Blizz maintains absolute control over the scene - which is shit considering this game has become a sport under the government's approval, there is no way it can be controlled by one foreign company. - And many other smaller things... Actually SC2 players and mapmakers are victims of Blizz's greed too : The EULA states that every game they play belong to Blizz, every maps they make belongs to Blizz, and every broastcasts/vods they make belong to Blizz. Blizz can terminate a player's account for no reason and steal the 60$ whenever they want. They change some terms in Korea because only in that country that the government takes gaming seriously but basically SC2 is not even a fair trade for the player despite its high potential to grow into a mature sport (it won't if Blizz continue to maintain absolute control like that). Battle.Net 2.0 are created with the ultimate purpose to control every people who play the game, every mapmakers who create map for the game, and every tournaments of the game. ALL BELONGS TO THEM. SC2 players are too obsessed with the game that they don't take those issues seriously at all, if SC2 is not "liberated" from Blizz in the future I failed to see how it will evolve into a mature spectator sport. (even now Blizz is suing the 2 only esport television channels, so in the future they can only broadcasts SC2 through internet streams lol, not to mention they go against the government for that). We BW fans have no problem with SC2, but we have problems with Blizz and their greed (omg they make "greed is good" a cheat code for their game, how can people argue against that). I know this is an older post but I feel like it exemplifies a lot of the points I've heard made against Blizzard. You are treating the whole situation as if it is a doomsday scenario. Why would Blizzard shut down the whole korean e-sports scene? What good does it do them? Now, I agree the terms seem to be a bit expensive for an industry that is reported to not be making exorbitant amounts of money, but that is really the crux of the legal argument. All this stuff about squashing BW and hording broadcasts and rights is ridiculous and is born out of unfounded fears. The only argument I can imagine holding any water is that they might want to literally shut down BW to promote SC2. But if that was the case, why are they going through all this trouble? Why not claim that they want all broadcasts and tournys shut down? Because they don't want to look like bad guys? Obviously not since everyone is through the roof already over the current state.
Even the Blizz boys can answer you that. They ve been saying it time and again actually. Directly ordering the death of Brood War is real real real bad PR, they stand to lose MUCH more than they stand to gain.
1/ If they are successful in abruptly killing off Brood War, imagine the public outcry of the players, the fans of those players, the sponsors (much bigger firms than Blizz, btw), not to mention it dashes ANY hope for Starcraft 2 to live in Korea. A national boycott is not too unlikely.
2/ As the Korean Ministry of Culture has stated before, e-Sport is part of Korean culture. They wont sit still and let a foreign firm kill off that cultural value so easily.. Now if Blizz somehow legally gain control of everything, and slowly choke BW to death (modify terms little by little till its virtually impossible to have any BW leagues anymore, end result: players either switch to SC2 or go jobless.. Fans either switch to SC2 or go back to watching Pokemon).
Im sure you see how it would best serve Blizz to do the things they are doing now. As someone stated before, Blizz as a game developer will only care as far as selling more copies of their games. They arent in it for the development of e-Sport (so many reasons have been cited i wont go through them again), only reason they are there now is because the sales that e-Sport will reap them (tgt with Heart of the Swarm and Legacy of the Void).
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@freakk You sure have a wild imagination. God forbid you ever create something in this world and someone profits off of your work.
What sponsors? Sponsors go where the money is at, I wouldn't be surprised if they pushed for SC2 to make broadcast on national television. I bet you MBC would gladly take a nice payment to host it, then a whole country can once again thrive on someone else work.
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i just read this gem and i wanted to point out the following
Who in the right mind would pay 300 million won to broadcast something that's only 50% theirs? Honestly, the broadcasted material isn't even all their property.
For every major sport in the world, The TV station pays to the teams a broadcast fee, for something that they do not own. They do not own a thing, as in 0% of the broadcasted material. The content itself belongs to the league, this applies to Basketball, football, soccer, the Olympics, etc.
Why is suddenly e-sports different? Why now are the TV stations golden cows that must have a stake in ownership? 50% to the stations is a lot more than they would get on a traditional sports settings.
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I am completely amazed at people's logic here.
"All Blizzard wants is to protect their rights"
"They dont want to kill off the korean BW e-sports scene"
Really? Are you really that naive? Lets just suppose that this conflict escalated just as SC2 hit Korean markets as pure coincidence.
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The game is made by blizzard, maintained by blizzard.. therefore they have all rights to be selfish, inconsiderate and unreasonable but I don't think the contract is unreasonable.
If it was 5-6 years ago, I doubt anyone would battle these terms in court since there was still so much money to milk and with no SC2 as competitor. These terms right now, makes the company think "Hmm is BW worth 100 M won?.. will the tournament return a positive revenue"
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On November 15 2010 04:46 battarro wrote:i just read this gem and i wanted to point out the following Show nested quote +Who in the right mind would pay 300 million won to broadcast something that's only 50% theirs? Honestly, the broadcasted material isn't even all their property. For every major sport in the world, The TV station pays to the teams a broadcast fee, for something that they do not own. They do not own a thing, as in 0% of the broadcasted material. The content itself belongs to the league, this applies to Basketball, football, soccer, the Olympics, etc. Why is suddenly e-sports different? Why now are the TV stations golden cows that must have a stake in ownership? 50% to the stations is a lot more than they would get on a traditional sports settings.
Really? The teams are represented by Kespa and the TV stations are the league operators.
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The arguing here is ridiculous. Blizzard created BW, and Kespa never acknowledges it. This industry was built upon the efforts of Blizzard before anyone else. These terms are completely reasonable in that light.
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I really don't think anyone can fault Blizzard for wanting full controll of their own intellectual property.
Clauses like those are common and are not neccessarily enforced. They just include everything so they can step in and shut it down if anyone should grossly overstep the boundries with amoral or unethical behaviour.
Blizzards stance towards KeSPA is warranted because KeSPA pretty much claimed ownership over StarCraft (specifically) broadcasting rights in Korea. The only thing they could rightfully claim ownership to is the scene they built around it, not StarCraft itself.
As I understand it, when Blizzard approached KeSPA saying they didn't appreciate them claiming ownership over their intellectual property, KeSPA pretty much laughed and spit in their face, arrogant because they felt safe being a government body.
So why are people opposing Blizzard in this case? Are you afraid Blizzard will take a too active part in the scene and ruin it? Doubt it will happen.
Afraid Brood War broadcasting will end because Blizzard doesn't want it overshadowing StarCraft2? Hardly. Brood War broadcasting will promote StarCraft 2 more than thwart it.
Blizzard deserves respect and recognition for their work. This case interfering with MSL, OSL and Starleague is KeSPAs fault, not Blizzard. You can't fault Blizzard for defending their rights against someone acting that disrespectfull toward them.
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On November 15 2010 03:47 reg0ner wrote:
Reported by who though? They broadcast on two major stations in SK, how could they *NOT* be making a nice amount of money.
You might want to take note that everything SC:BW related in Korea is absolutely free for the fans. Free to roll up and watch live free to stream free to download vods. (also free to commentate. want english commentary of gsl but hate tastosis? badluck)
The proscene for the fans in Korea is the equivalent of your local council holding free to participate tai chi sessions every sunday morning.
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Show nested quote +seriously blizzard and gretech, go to hell
obvioulsy gretech is being influenced by b lizzard
Yeah, people who made starcraft for us which we love, go to hell. For making this awesome game. Yup.
Hmm don't understand all the parts of the profit, I think Blizzard/Gretech should definitely try to let the broadcasting stations make more money than Bliz/Gre does from the broadcasting though. The broadcasting stations will own the sponsorship money though, so I guess they will do fine? Or no?
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EPT
