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On November 15 2010 13:38 battarro wrote:
If you invent a square ball, and I create a game around it that is so popular, much more than your sales of the square ball. Am I entitled to just milk the square ball? Because that is what you are proposing,
your scenario makes no sense, am I making money from "inventing" the ball? are you making money from "creating" your game? and if so, how? your metaphor is insane and detached entirely from reality, so idk whether or not you're morally or legally entitled to "milk" the ball (w/e you think that means)
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On November 15 2010 11:34 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 11:27 kamikami wrote:On November 15 2010 10:27 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Maybe its just time to hand things off? By all means, keep BW around... but let somebody else handle it. Your "someone else" don't have : 1> Media support : BW won't have TV coverage. 2> Government support : No help from the gov to maintain its sport status, not to mention bad press / harass from them. 3> Programing team support : The existing teams of Kespa won't participate in their leagues, they will disband and I don't think more than 1/3 of the actual players will continue to play. The scene will become too small it cannot exist. The matter is simple, your "someone else" is technically not qualified for the job. Not to mention they treat their business partner like slaves and their customers like shit. 1) Why would the next group not have media support? Last I checked the broadcasters that already invested into it would want to continue to keep their investment alive. 2) Why would the government stop supporting it? Just because it isnt kespa doesnt mean it cant have support. Keep in mind, I am not saying that blizzard is this "someone else". 3) Why would only 1/3 of the players continue to play? Many people that try to play BW professionally have given up lots of things in their life to pursue this dream. How many would be able to live a life as good as they have if they dont keep playing under sponsorship? Honestly, you are making completely nonsensical doomsday conclusions here with nothing to back them up. At all.
1/ Blizz has just finished sueing the only TV stations that would Broadcast BW. Now i do not know how things work over at your end, but here in the East, "face" is something pretty important. If you just spitted on someone, it greatly decrease the chance of you two working together even if there are good money involved. Not to mention, i am highly doubtful that Blizz is willing to put much money in BW at all, thus making it even more unlikely for TV stations to have a reason to work with them.
2/ Kespa is founded by Ministry of Culture. Now if Blizz successfully sue this organisation and wrestle all rights to BW off their hand and give it to a little private firm like Gretech, i dont see how the government would want to support it.
3/ Blizzard simply dont have the money and infrastructure to keep things going. The amount of money they put into SC2's e-Sport is peanut compared to the money involved in BW. And just in case you dont know, Blizz wont find the sponsors for BW, at least not ones in the same level as the current sponsors anw.
I would also like to say that your "maybe Blizz can do it" attitude are just wishful thinking and have nothing to back them up. At all.
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On November 15 2010 10:27 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 04:53 night terrors wrote:
I am completely amazed at people's logic here.
"All Blizzard wants is to protect their rights"
"They dont want to kill off the korean BW e-sports scene"
Really? Are you really that naive? Lets just suppose that this conflict escalated just as SC2 hit Korean markets as pure coincidence.
I guess the fact that the escalation actually started the moment KeSPA tried to control and sell broadcast rights completely slipped by you. Nope, it all happened purely because SC2 hit the korean market (this doesnt even make sense... this has been going on for years =\)
I'm only going quote part of what you've written because i only feel like like addressing this part. I don't think i'm taking anything out of context, if so let me know.
I think the two of you are both right and wrong about some parts. Negotiations between Blizzard and KeSPA began in 2007 and when SC2 was nearing release the shit hit the fan.
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On November 15 2010 14:20 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 11:34 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 15 2010 11:27 kamikami wrote:On November 15 2010 10:27 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Maybe its just time to hand things off? By all means, keep BW around... but let somebody else handle it. Your "someone else" don't have : 1> Media support : BW won't have TV coverage. 2> Government support : No help from the gov to maintain its sport status, not to mention bad press / harass from them. 3> Programing team support : The existing teams of Kespa won't participate in their leagues, they will disband and I don't think more than 1/3 of the actual players will continue to play. The scene will become too small it cannot exist. The matter is simple, your "someone else" is technically not qualified for the job. Not to mention they treat their business partner like slaves and their customers like shit. 1) Why would the next group not have media support? Last I checked the broadcasters that already invested into it would want to continue to keep their investment alive. 2) Why would the government stop supporting it? Just because it isnt kespa doesnt mean it cant have support. Keep in mind, I am not saying that blizzard is this "someone else". 3) Why would only 1/3 of the players continue to play? Many people that try to play BW professionally have given up lots of things in their life to pursue this dream. How many would be able to live a life as good as they have if they dont keep playing under sponsorship? Honestly, you are making completely nonsensical doomsday conclusions here with nothing to back them up. At all. 1/ Blizz has just finished sueing the only TV stations that would Broadcast BW. Now i do not know how things work over at your end, but here in the East, "face" is something pretty important. If you just spitted on someone, it greatly decrease the chance of you two working together even if there are good money involved. Not to mention, i am highly doubtful that Blizz is willing to put much money in BW at all, thus making it even more unlikely for TV stations to have a reason to work with them. 2/ Kespa is founded by Ministry of Culture. Now if Blizz successfully sue this organisation and wrestle all rights to BW off their hand and give it to a little private firm like Gretech, i dont see how the government would want to support it. 3/ Blizzard simply dont have the money and infrastructure to keep things going. The amount of money they put into SC2's e-Sport is peanut compared to the money involved in BW. And just in case you dont know, Blizz wont find the sponsors for BW, at least not ones in the same level as the current sponsors anw. I would also like to say that your "maybe Blizz can do it" attitude are just wishful thinking and have nothing to back them up. At all.
I agree, the SC2 scene will basically be like any other competitive gaming scene, which isn't much. Attempting to kill the BW scene at whim will scare off potential long-term sponsors, and that combined with the general genericness of SC2 really limits it's future potential. That and once SC3 is ready to ship Blizzard will just pull the same stunt again and pull the plug on SC2 (which will be easier than with BW since they already have 100% control). SC2 is not being set up for the long-term.
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So, they want money for the Seasons. Alright, that sounds fair, considering gretech has the sole rights to air it.
All sublisences are split 50:50, again, that sounds fair.
Then all sponsorship money made stays with the Broadcasting stations to do with as they have in the past.
Sounds pretty even to me.
On November 15 2010 14:35 attackfighter wrote:
. SC2 is not being set up for the long-term.
To be fair, with 18 months between expansions, and the time it takes them to make a new game once the two expansions are over, it really is set up for atleast 10 years.
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I dont know, personally, i dont feel that a 50/50 split is reasonable.
- Blizzard didnt sponsor the games, they had to pay for all the copies of games that they used.
- Blizzard did not have any part in the organisation of the tournaments as well as the management of the teams.
- They (the teams) also had to pay for the license.
Now if Blizz gave the license for free, let them use their game freely, and took a minor but non-trivial part in the tournaments (and teams), i would understand splitting it that way. Right now 50/50 on top of all the rest looks nothing short of a rip-off to me.
Edit: clarifications
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On November 15 2010 07:16 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
And how the heck is that not reasonable? Seriously. They OWN THE GAME. How is it NOT reasonable to OWN control of THEIR game??? For those that say, "Kespa made the proscene" well may be Blizzard doesn't want Kespa in charge of the progamer scene. May be they want to do it themselves. Is that not reasonable?
Its not reasonable cause KESPA = SC:BW progamer scene.
They own the teams, pay the players, organize the TV coverage.
So if Blizzard doesn't want Kespa in charge of proscene then it has to make one from nothing and we know that they arent interested in puting much money into sc:bw now that they have sc2.
And Blizzard idea about how to run a Sc2 pro scene isn't the best one...
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On November 15 2010 17:50 Frankon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 07:16 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
And how the heck is that not reasonable? Seriously. They OWN THE GAME. How is it NOT reasonable to OWN control of THEIR game??? For those that say, "Kespa made the proscene" well may be Blizzard doesn't want Kespa in charge of the progamer scene. May be they want to do it themselves. Is that not reasonable? And Blizzard idea about how to run a Sc2 pro scene isn't the best one...
qualify that.
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On November 15 2010 18:05 Thurokiir wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 17:50 Frankon wrote:On November 15 2010 07:16 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
And how the heck is that not reasonable? Seriously. They OWN THE GAME. How is it NOT reasonable to OWN control of THEIR game??? For those that say, "Kespa made the proscene" well may be Blizzard doesn't want Kespa in charge of the progamer scene. May be they want to do it themselves. Is that not reasonable? And Blizzard idea about how to run a Sc2 pro scene isn't the best one... qualify that.
Basically Blizzard idea is big SOLO tournaments with huge prices.
And here are the problems.
How long can they pump in money for the prices?
What are the perspectives for new players to live from the esport?
We know that Korean pro scene is focused on teams. This model ensures that a pro gamer is actually a job where you get paid for playing and get bonuses as a addition to normal pay (so basically you have a steady income while you are on team).
The Blizzard idea is be no1 so you can get any money. So as long as you win or (be in top 4 or 8) you get the money. The problem is that there are sheduled 12 tourneys per year in Sc2 (so lets say ~80 people would get price money - scratch that tournament would be for 32 players with code S)) the rest get ZERO.
This will lead to players having to get a normal job (god know how many hours they work in korea) and practice Sc in free time that will lead to:
a) worse level of games
b) decline of life (im sure i got that right but you should be able to figure out what i meant)
Remember we are talking about korea not NA or EU
Basically with Blizzard idea about turnaments you can't have a steady income so its a bad career choice for young people. You have better chances at playing some lottery. why do i say that? Nada the PRO failed to qualify to GSL3.
Kespa pro teams solution was way better than this.
Kespa runed SC:BW offered a stable job (if you dont perform too good you get sacked but it happens in normal jobs too).
Blizard idea is basically get a lottery ticket and hope you can win a torunament to get some money.
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Blizzard should pay OGN/MBC for showing their game for a decade instead of suing them beacuse of greed. They have enough money stacked around their wow servers to feed the continent of Africa for 60 years, so wanting control of something they didnt create (the culture around one of their games) is just disgusting.
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On November 15 2010 19:44 Pippah wrote:
Blizzard should pay OGN/MBC for showing their game for a decade instead of suing them beacuse of greed. They have enough money stacked around their wow servers to feed the continent of Africa for 60 years, so wanting control of something they didnt create (the culture around one of their games) is just disgusting.
I think Kespa and OGN/MBC are getting way too much credit for what they've done. Sure, they've done a great job of organizing this league and these tournaments, but that pales in comparison to the work Blizzard put into making the game from scratch.
Tons of organizations could have pulled off what Kespa has accomplished, because the culture revolves around Starcraft, not something specifically done by Kespa or OGN/MBC. No other game could have filled the role of BroodWar in today's pro scene.
Blizzard's revenue from WoW is irrelevent; they've earned every penny by making several of the best video games of all time.
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On November 15 2010 23:43 Ferago wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 19:44 Pippah wrote:
Blizzard should pay OGN/MBC for showing their game for a decade instead of suing them beacuse of greed. They have enough money stacked around their wow servers to feed the continent of Africa for 60 years, so wanting control of something they didnt create (the culture around one of their games) is just disgusting. I think Kespa and OGN/MBC are getting way too much credit for what they've done. Sure, they've done a great job of organizing this league and these tournaments, but that pales in comparison to the work Blizzard put into making the game from scratch. Tons of organizations could have pulled off what Kespa has accomplished, because the culture revolves around Starcraft, not something specifically done by Kespa or OGN/MBC. No other game could have filled the role of BroodWar in today's pro scene. Blizzard's revenue from WoW is irrelevent; they've earned every penny by making several of the best video games of all time.
You would have a hard time arguing that point, considering that nobody have been able to do that. And i really cant picture that there are more organisations like Kespa around.. Unless you dont know what Kespa is? oO
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On November 15 2010 23:43 Ferago wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 19:44 Pippah wrote:
Blizzard should pay OGN/MBC for showing their game for a decade instead of suing them beacuse of greed. They have enough money stacked around their wow servers to feed the continent of Africa for 60 years, so wanting control of something they didnt create (the culture around one of their games) is just disgusting. I think Kespa and OGN/MBC are getting way too much credit for what they've done. Sure, they've done a great job of organizing this league and these tournaments, but that pales in comparison to the work Blizzard put into making the game from scratch. Tons of organizations could have pulled off what Kespa has accomplished, because the culture revolves around Starcraft, not something specifically done by Kespa or OGN/MBC. No other game could have filled the role of BroodWar in today's pro scene. Blizzard's revenue from WoW is irrelevent; they've earned every penny by making several of the best video games of all time.
Blizzard sold 9 million copies of starcraft, that's their reward for making it. To say they deserve a slice of the Korean esports scene as well is just baseless. To bring back this metaphor: a soccer ball manufacturer doesn't own the IP rights to televised soccer matches. Giving video game developers control over not only the sale of their games, but how they're used as well only stifles innovation. No new esports industry can spring up, modders are at the mercy of the devs, it is just horrible all around for the consumer. It would better to have a completely free market in regards to entertainment media, that way you wouldn't have big corporations stomping all over the little guy and stifling competition with these ridiculous laws.
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On November 15 2010 18:37 Frankon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 18:05 Thurokiir wrote:On November 15 2010 17:50 Frankon wrote:On November 15 2010 07:16 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
And how the heck is that not reasonable? Seriously. They OWN THE GAME. How is it NOT reasonable to OWN control of THEIR game??? For those that say, "Kespa made the proscene" well may be Blizzard doesn't want Kespa in charge of the progamer scene. May be they want to do it themselves. Is that not reasonable? And Blizzard idea about how to run a Sc2 pro scene isn't the best one... qualify that. Basically Blizzard idea is big SOLO tournaments with huge prices. And here are the problems. How long can they pump in money for the prices? What are the perspectives for new players to live from the esport? We know that Korean pro scene is focused on teams. This model ensures that a pro gamer is actually a job where you get paid for playing and get bonuses as a addition to normal pay (so basically you have a steady income while you are on team). The Blizzard idea is be no1 so you can get any money. So as long as you win or (be in top 4 or 8) you get the money. The problem is that there are sheduled 12 tourneys per year in Sc2 (so lets say ~80 people would get price money - scratch that tournament would be for 32 players with code S)) the rest get ZERO. This will lead to players having to get a normal job (god know how many hours they work in korea) and practice Sc in free time that will lead to: a) worse level of games b) decline of life (im sure i got that right but you should be able to figure out what i meant) Remember we are talking about korea not NA or EUBasically with Blizzard idea about turnaments you can't have a steady income so its a bad career choice for young people. You have better chances at playing some lottery. why do i say that? Nada the PRO failed to qualify to GSL3. Kespa pro teams solution was way better than this. Kespa runed SC:BW offered a stable job (if you dont perform too good you get sacked but it happens in normal jobs too). Blizard idea is basically get a lottery ticket and hope you can win a torunament to get some money.
If you really want to do an SCBW vs SC2 comparison. The proscene for Sc1 was much much much... much much much... much much much... Smaller than SC2s current scene when it was of the same age as it is now. It took a long time to pick up and get to the point it is now, and arguably even picked up momentum when Starcraft 2 was announced.
The only difference between the two scenes is experience and age.
I don't want to turn this into a game war since I love both games, so I'll just go to what is on the table now...
The Deal? It is(was) a good one, keeping sponsorship money with a split on revenue on sublicensing is reasonable. Why isn't it working? Because the key factor of acknowledging IP rights, which would make the existence of KESPA questionable, and the history between the two organizations.
I believe intellectual property is the reason we get good quality games. I also believe in an IP owners rights to protect his IP. So no I won't be convinced that KESPA stance on this is the better one for games in general since it discourages game devs to put in things like LAN or balance games for the Esport scene since all that extra effort will only facilitate other people from making money.
Blizzard sold 9 million copies of starcraft, that's their reward for making it. To say they deserve a slice of the Korean esports scene as well is just baseless. To bring back this metaphor: a soccer ball manufacturer doesn't own the IP rights to televised soccer matches. Giving video game developers control over not only the sale of their games, but how they're used as well only stifles innovation. No new esports industry can spring up, modders are at the mercy of the devs, it is just horrible all around for the consumer. It would better to have a completely free market in regards to entertainment media, that way you wouldn't have big corporations stomping all over the little guy and stifling competition with these ridiculous laws.
Last edit: 2010-11-16 01:12:12
If you invented the Soccer ball, better yet, invented a basic ruleset to what would consist todays football... Then yes you would have rights over the guy televising matches and making money off your invention. You could then sell those rights for whatever price you want, however no one currently living can claim that... and at best you could invent a better way of manufacturing a soccer ball... So despite being called a sport, it makes most sport analogies ridiculous.
KESPA doesn't even want to acknowledge the basic rights. Since there isn't a real precendent to starcraft I don't know for how long rights with regards to a game should belong to the creator. However the basis of IP is that I shouldn't be allowed to make money over someone elses invention it's not "ridiculous laws".
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On November 16 2010 01:11 attackfighter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 23:43 Ferago wrote:On November 15 2010 19:44 Pippah wrote:
Blizzard should pay OGN/MBC for showing their game for a decade instead of suing them beacuse of greed. They have enough money stacked around their wow servers to feed the continent of Africa for 60 years, so wanting control of something they didnt create (the culture around one of their games) is just disgusting. I think Kespa and OGN/MBC are getting way too much credit for what they've done. Sure, they've done a great job of organizing this league and these tournaments, but that pales in comparison to the work Blizzard put into making the game from scratch. Tons of organizations could have pulled off what Kespa has accomplished, because the culture revolves around Starcraft, not something specifically done by Kespa or OGN/MBC. No other game could have filled the role of BroodWar in today's pro scene. Blizzard's revenue from WoW is irrelevent; they've earned every penny by making several of the best video games of all time. Blizzard sold 9 million copies of starcraft, that's their reward for making it. To say they deserve a slice of the Korean esports scene as well is just baseless. To bring back this metaphor: a soccer ball manufacturer doesn't own the IP rights to televised soccer matches. Giving video game developers control over not only the sale of their games, but how they're used as well only stifles innovation. No new esports industry can spring up, modders are at the mercy of the devs, it is just horrible all around for the consumer. It would better to have a completely free market in regards to entertainment media, that way you wouldn't have big corporations stomping all over the little guy and stifling competition with these ridiculous laws.
It's not about the money, it's about the rights. I don't think Blizzard plans on actively using their share of the "control", they just need to have it in their back pocket in case a situation arises where their rights are being infringed upon (who knows how this could happen, unprecedented shit happens all the time). This is perfectly normal and it's absurd that so many people are angry about it. This is an agreement that should have happened in 2001 (and probably wouldn't have changed much about today's pro scene).
Also, while this situation can be compared in many ways to athletic sports, that soccer ball metaphor is very poor. Starcraft isn't a generic piece of material that's shipped out of a factory. It's a piece of software, 100% subject to IP laws. It was invented by Blizzard, who fully own the rights to it. The ball was invented by cavemen (and to my knowledge, that organization went under a while ago).
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On November 15 2010 23:43 Ferago wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 19:44 Pippah wrote:
Blizzard should pay OGN/MBC for showing their game for a decade instead of suing them beacuse of greed. They have enough money stacked around their wow servers to feed the continent of Africa for 60 years, so wanting control of something they didnt create (the culture around one of their games) is just disgusting. I think Kespa and OGN/MBC are getting way too much credit for what they've done. Sure, they've done a great job of organizing this league and these tournaments, but that pales in comparison to the work Blizzard put into making the game from scratch. Tons of organizations could have pulled off what Kespa has accomplished, because the culture revolves around Starcraft, not something specifically done by Kespa or OGN/MBC. No other game could have filled the role of BroodWar in today's pro scene. Blizzard's revenue from WoW is irrelevent; they've earned every penny by making several of the best video games of all time.
You assume other organizations could've pulled off what kespa, ogn, mbc have done. I don't see any other such organizations. It's also been established that BW became an esport game through pure luck. SCBW could have just be another popular game, and another random game could've become the main esport game.
Also, developing a game from scratch is not as hard as you make it out to be. Maintaining a successful national esport model for 10 years is far far far harder than developing a 1998 game. Take this from a software engineer. Budgetwise, Kespa and the broadcasting stations have spent much more than Blizzard in developing SCBW.
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This football manufacturer metaphor getting thrown around lately is completely inaccurate. There are several major companies making footballs and hundreds, if not thousands, of smaller companies doing the same thing. Nobody owns the rights to "A Football." However, Blizzard does own the rights to "Starcraft." There is only one company making that game and they do own all the rights to it, legally.
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On November 16 2010 04:57 Zechs wrote:
This football manufacturer metaphor getting thrown around lately is completely inaccurate. There are several major companies making footballs and hundreds, if not thousands, of smaller companies doing the same thing. Nobody owns the rights to "A Football." However, Blizzard does own the rights to "Starcraft." There is only one company making that game and they do own all the rights to it, legally.
All rights to sell the game? Definitely.
All rights to televising the game? You can't say they do own that right, legally. This is STILL vague.
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Wow these are horrible terms from a business perspective. No wonder they got rejected. 50/50 ownership split?? That's ridiculously high considering all they did was make the game. 75/25 in MBC/OGN's favor would already be generous. 50/50 is a slap in the face.
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On November 16 2010 04:51 buhhy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 23:43 Ferago wrote:On November 15 2010 19:44 Pippah wrote:
Blizzard should pay OGN/MBC for showing their game for a decade instead of suing them beacuse of greed. They have enough money stacked around their wow servers to feed the continent of Africa for 60 years, so wanting control of something they didnt create (the culture around one of their games) is just disgusting. I think Kespa and OGN/MBC are getting way too much credit for what they've done. Sure, they've done a great job of organizing this league and these tournaments, but that pales in comparison to the work Blizzard put into making the game from scratch. Tons of organizations could have pulled off what Kespa has accomplished, because the culture revolves around Starcraft, not something specifically done by Kespa or OGN/MBC. No other game could have filled the role of BroodWar in today's pro scene. Blizzard's revenue from WoW is irrelevent; they've earned every penny by making several of the best video games of all time. You assume other organizations could've pulled off what kespa, ogn, mbc have done. I don't see any other such organizations. It's also been established that BW became an esport game through pure luck. SCBW could have just be another popular game, and another random game could've become the main esport game. Also, developing a game from scratch is not as hard as you make it out to be. Maintaining a successful national esport model for 10 years is far far far harder than developing a 1998 game. Take this from a software engineer. Budgetwise, Kespa and the broadcasting stations have spent much more than Blizzard in developing SCBW.
I disagree that another game could've gone as far as BroodWar did. The reason BroodWar is so popular is because Blizzard made it so evenly balanced between 3 races that function completely differently. If it was unbalanced, it wouldn't be a viable game competitively. If all the races were basically the same (like in Age of Empires for example) it would get boring very fast. Blizzard made a game so dynamic that the metagame is still evolving 12 years later, which is unprecedented. No other game company in the world has achieved such a feat.
Again, I believe that the game itself, not Kespa or the broadcasting stations, has been the biggest factor in the success of today's pro scene. The budgets are irrelevent and impossible to gauge, and being a game designer myself, I think you're downplaying the amount of work Blizzard put into the game. The fact that it was made in 1998 has no bearing; the only difference is graphics and visuals really. The game logic is where the money is, and Blizzard has perfected that.
Regardless of how much money or work was put into their respective efforts, Blizzard clearly brought more to the table by designing the game that started all of this.
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