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On November 14 2010 14:41 darmousseh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 14:34 Vista wrote:
The fee is nothing, anyone saying it's unreasonable pretty much doesn't know what they're talking about lol
The only thing that is a bit unreasonable is the 1 year term, but that's obviously to test the waters so it's understandable.
Will OGN and MBC agree to this though? Doubt it. the NFL and all americans companies negotiate for rights to the superbowl and other events on a yearly basis for the most part. No difference here.
Do those "American companies" pay the players, house them, organise the Superbowl, own the stadium? If they do, i think that MBC and OGN would have a thing or two to learn from them, and their willingness to get abused.
On November 14 2010 15:24 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 11:08 T.O.P. wrote:On November 14 2010 02:12 Iplaythings wrote:On November 14 2010 01:57 exeprime wrote:
The anti-blizzard bias here is palpable. The terms are quite normal and reasonable, I fail to see why everyone is so outraged. They demand that for one year. They arent some company which makes $ but a nonprofit organization, how can you ask that much of someone who doesnt even have the money, the only solution is cutting the prize pool or something, which will affect the players They dont even purchase the rights to be alone, they dont even keep their content or anything I fail to see how the demands ARENT unreasonable If OGN and MBCgame agrees to these demands, then they have effectively acknowledged that Blizzard owns the ip rights to starcraft broadcasts and they must get Blizzard's approval every time they want to broadcast something starcraft. That's a big problem because Gretech is only offering a 1 year contract. There's no stopping Gretech from demanding (like someone earlier said) OGN and MBCGame's CEO's daughter and 1,000,000,000 won next year. If OGN and MBCgame signs this, bw will die in one year. That's just ignorant. Unless South Korea is a third world country, there are plenty of protections against changing contracts unreasonably. Anybody who raises prices like crazy from one contract to the next is going to be scrutinized like you wouldn't believe.We don't have to be lawyers but the level of legal ignorance in TL is just crazy. Too many people don't even know the basics of copyright and contract law to make informed comments.
1/ Instead of raising price, they can do many other things to slowly kill off/hamper the scene. Limiting broadcasting time, for example, could hurt BW a lot.. Getting pushed back to early morning, or after midnight, or can only broadcast 1-2 times a week would obviously hurt. Thats just one example, there are WAY many more things Blizz can do to wreck BW if they are given total control
2/ I may not be a law expert but i do know that this case is one without a precedent, so we do not have a definite right/wrong parties here. Also do take note that while talking in high-handed manner may make you feel good, it only serves to decredit your arguments.
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On November 14 2010 13:48 SoJu.WeRRa wrote:
I dont think that OGN and MBC will agree with these kinda terms honnestly...
They already rejected these stupid terms which is why it's come down to a court battle now.
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the only problem is the contract term, and basically blizzard can say fuck off after 1 year, rests are just normal formality you will see in any other contracts in business.
blizzard created BW so it is theirs, is that wrong?
90k is a pretty good annual salary for a person in US, and thats all.
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So I think it'd be hilarious if KeSPA wins this case to demand Blizzard pay them every year for promoting their game. It wouldn't be anymore ridiculous than the terms offered in the OP.
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On November 14 2010 18:28 overt wrote:
So I think it'd be hilarious if KeSPA wins this case to demand Blizzard pay them every year for promoting their game. It wouldn't be anymore ridiculous than the terms offered in the OP.
What is ridiculous about the terms offered in the OP? The only thing resembling ridiculous is the 1 year term, but at this point its not really too bad of an idea if KeSPA dissolves due to idiocy. A cheap 1 year term is probably better than the likely much more expensive possibility of a 3 year term (3 year term for KeSPA was 780,000,000 won, whereas the 1 year term was 130,000,000)
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On November 14 2010 15:26 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 12:26 renzy wrote:On November 14 2010 10:07 ptz wrote:On November 14 2010 10:00 renzy wrote:On November 14 2010 09:24 Legace wrote:On November 14 2010 04:49 ]343[ wrote:On November 14 2010 04:25 Chibalicious wrote:
Yes it's just an e-sports but you have to ackknowledge how big SC:BW is in Korea. Compared to other e-sports like SC2 in the rest of the world, compared to counterstrike and other great e-sport, SC:BW in Korea is HUGE. What SC2 players and others often dont realise is how great BW is in Korea. With hundreds, maybe even thousands of paid employees, 2 TV-stations and the sponsors involved 90k is a drop in the water.
SC:BW is a great game and an industry that foreigners often cant even comprehend. Blizzard terms wont kill or hurt any of that. Hmm, have you seen this? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=162136MBC actually doesn't make any profits from broadcasting BW... 100 million won is definitely not a small sum. I guess broadcasters should have the Blizzard logo more prominently though. Let's reverse. Is a 100 million won per year a lot of money to Blizzard ? No, anyway you look at it - a 100 million won is, to say the least, pocket money for Blizzard. They probably spend more money on champagne everytime they launch a new game. To Blizzard, there are probably ten more important reason as to why they're doing this rather then just earning a buck or killing off BW. They could have, just as easily, demanded ten times as much money if they effectively wanted to kill off the BW scene. Yes, but to MBC, 100 million won x 3 seasons is asking for 30,000 dollars from a hobo. They've stated they only break even from broadcasting BW. There is no doubt why MBC didn't accept the offer. At worst, if MBC gets sued, they can't broadcast proleague. Okay, well atleast they don't lose money this way. However, if MBC does decide to pay the 300 million won per year, along with everything else, they lose pretty much, 300 million won per year. Who in the right mind would pay 300 million won to broadcast something that's only 50% theirs? Honestly, the broadcasted material isn't even all their property. they stated ? What costs does mbc have of running their starleague ? Because 300 million would be for 3 seasons of starleague, proleague would be 50k since ogn would pay half i suppose. So they have sponsors that give out the actual cash prizes. What are the operational costs of MBC ? Getting casters, booths, having a place where matches happen, and getting some k pop pussy to sing at the start of the show. They have like a shitload of commercials during those , because surely their proleague and starleague broadcasts are the ones that get the highest ratings, so selling air time should be easiest here. Howcome they dont break even ? They run a bad management if they dont make money off this free stuff, they should move on to something that can work for them if they hardly break even with sc. /sarcasm Yes, they stated. I'll link you a thread that is 3 posts above. MBCgame makes no money off of broadcasting BW, unless you think MBC's CEO is bsing. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=162136Edit: Oops, posted in the quote. Yeah, that's just BS. If they really are not making any money broadcasting BW, they should just broadcast "I Love Lucy" reruns and infomercials like local stations here in the US do if they have nothing else to broadcast.
Your blindness to what constitutes love for e-sports is appalling. The BW proscene was made entirely out of tears, hard work and love, and only in South Korea. Why then would the people involved care about making profits in the first place?
It is not BS, as you so claim. MBC and OGN are two of the biggest tv stations in SK, beside KBS and such. They do not only broadcast BW, but they also broadcast tv shows among other things. Have you even watched their other channels? I for once enjoy watching them myself. Quit your anti-Korean rhetoric, please.
The main reason why the SK BW proscene is so successful after 10 whole years is their love for it, nothing more. Not some hidden agenda of profit-making behind the scenes, but simply reinvesting back into the proscene to help it develop and thrive.
And Blizzard is taking that all away, judging by its latest actions. That is my opinion, and you are free to debate it as you wish.
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On November 14 2010 18:37 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 18:28 overt wrote:
So I think it'd be hilarious if KeSPA wins this case to demand Blizzard pay them every year for promoting their game. It wouldn't be anymore ridiculous than the terms offered in the OP. What is ridiculous about the terms offered in the OP? The only thing resembling ridiculous is the 1 year term, but at this point its not really too bad of an idea if KeSPA dissolves due to idiocy. A cheap 1 year term is probably better than the likely much more expensive possibility of a 3 year term (3 year term for KeSPA was 780,000,000 won, whereas the 1 year term was 130,000,000)
You make it seem that money is the issue here, have you read disciple's post?
It's all about control of the e-sports scene they grew; in my opinion, in this case, it would be idiocy if KeSPA did agree to those terms, there is always potential for revenge-killing from the other side.
also from http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=168346¤tpage=240#4793,
On November 13 2010 21:49 Gaius Baltar wrote:
Summary of John's speech
He basically encouraged people to follow their hearts if they want to do e-Sports. Even in Korea it is still looked down on by many people who ask, "Why do you play a game as a job? You should grow up." But John says you should ask those people, "Are you truly happy in your job following your dream like I am? Do you have a fan who will make a banner just for you?" He closed by saying, "If you're nervous that you will be all alone if you try to do e-Sports, don't worry. I (John), Dan and Nick will support you. Everyone here at GOM will support you, we love you guys."
T_T and look what they are doing to the players/staff in BW. Felt pretty sick reading this yesterday...
Follow your heart...
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On November 14 2010 18:43 IntoTheEmo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 18:37 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 14 2010 18:28 overt wrote:
So I think it'd be hilarious if KeSPA wins this case to demand Blizzard pay them every year for promoting their game. It wouldn't be anymore ridiculous than the terms offered in the OP. What is ridiculous about the terms offered in the OP? The only thing resembling ridiculous is the 1 year term, but at this point its not really too bad of an idea if KeSPA dissolves due to idiocy. A cheap 1 year term is probably better than the likely much more expensive possibility of a 3 year term (3 year term for KeSPA was 780,000,000 won, whereas the 1 year term was 130,000,000) You make it seem that money is the issue here, have you read disciple's post? It's all about control of the e-sports scene they grew; in my opinion, in this case, it would be idiocy if KeSPA did agree to those terms, there is always potential for revenge-killing from the other side. also from http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=168346¤tpage=240#4793, Show nested quote +On November 13 2010 21:49 Gaius Baltar wrote:
Summary of John's speech
He basically encouraged people to follow their hearts if they want to do e-Sports. Even in Korea it is still looked down on by many people who ask, "Why do you play a game as a job? You should grow up." But John says you should ask those people, "Are you truly happy in your job following your dream like I am? Do you have a fan who will make a banner just for you?" He closed by saying, "If you're nervous that you will be all alone if you try to do e-Sports, don't worry. I (John), Dan and Nick will support you. Everyone here at GOM will support you, we love you guys." T_T and look what they are doing to the players/staff in BW. Felt pretty sick reading this yesterday... Follow your heart...
The people are the reason esports grew in Korea. KeSPA is just a group of corporations that saw a potential for profit, stepped in and supported it, on a local level. If esports was truly their goal, they would have supported the GOM classic as it supported a much more global approach to esports.
This is KeSPA's official goal (according to wikipedia):
Its official goal is to make e-Sports an official sporting event, and to solidify the commercial position of e-Sports in all sectors.
Note that 2nd part. A group of corporations control KeSPA, and one of their goals is to solidify the commercial position of esports. This is natural, and I am fine with it.
I see nothing in the contract that would limit the growth of esports, and I havent seen a global attempt in esports by anybody but GOMtv so far, even in terms of BW. The ONLY thing that isnt good is the 1 year term, but again... why not sign the term for a year instead of try to fight in court? If things go sour in a year, I am pretty sure that the korean courts would intervene to protect it.
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Korea (South)1897 Posts
Business is business,
but sometimes,
the little people get hurt,
I'm sure it could have not come to Blizzard suing the broadcasters,
but the situation is much more complicated than just IP issues,
there are montary issues involved, even if one believes that SCBW and SC2 can co-exsit.
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On November 14 2010 18:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 18:43 IntoTheEmo wrote:On November 14 2010 18:37 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 14 2010 18:28 overt wrote:
So I think it'd be hilarious if KeSPA wins this case to demand Blizzard pay them every year for promoting their game. It wouldn't be anymore ridiculous than the terms offered in the OP. What is ridiculous about the terms offered in the OP? The only thing resembling ridiculous is the 1 year term, but at this point its not really too bad of an idea if KeSPA dissolves due to idiocy. A cheap 1 year term is probably better than the likely much more expensive possibility of a 3 year term (3 year term for KeSPA was 780,000,000 won, whereas the 1 year term was 130,000,000) You make it seem that money is the issue here, have you read disciple's post? It's all about control of the e-sports scene they grew; in my opinion, in this case, it would be idiocy if KeSPA did agree to those terms, there is always potential for revenge-killing from the other side. also from http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=168346¤tpage=240#4793, On November 13 2010 21:49 Gaius Baltar wrote:
Summary of John's speech
He basically encouraged people to follow their hearts if they want to do e-Sports. Even in Korea it is still looked down on by many people who ask, "Why do you play a game as a job? You should grow up." But John says you should ask those people, "Are you truly happy in your job following your dream like I am? Do you have a fan who will make a banner just for you?" He closed by saying, "If you're nervous that you will be all alone if you try to do e-Sports, don't worry. I (John), Dan and Nick will support you. Everyone here at GOM will support you, we love you guys." T_T and look what they are doing to the players/staff in BW. Felt pretty sick reading this yesterday... Follow your heart... The people are the reason esports grew in Korea. KeSPA is just a group of corporations that saw a potential for profit, stepped in and supported it, on a local level. If esports was truly their goal, they would have supported the GOM classic as it supported a much more global approach to esports. This is KeSPA's official goal (according to wikipedia): Its official goal is to make e-Sports an official sporting event, and to solidify the commercial position of e-Sports in all sectors. Note that 2nd part. A group of corporations control KeSPA, and one of their goals is to solidify the commercial position of esports. This is natural, and I am fine with it. I see nothing in the contract that would limit the growth of esports, and I havent seen a global attempt in esports by anybody but GOMtv so far, even in terms of BW. The ONLY thing that isnt good is the 1 year term, but again... why not sign the term for a year instead of try to fight in court? If things go sour in a year, I am pretty sure that the korean courts would intervene to protect it.
The initial argument of Blizzard fans is that "The broadcasting stations are the reason esports grew in Korea, and Kespa is evil trying to control the broadcasting stations", now that Blizzard is suing the broadcasting stations, and it is clear that both broadcasting stations are siding with Kespa, they say "The people are the reason esports grew in Korea" lol. There would be no esport if OGN didn't try to put a SC match on TV in the first place.
If you already signed that ridiculous contract (or I can say, that "slave contract"), no court will intervene to "protect" you, you accepted it in the first place. If they go to court they still have a chance to win because the Korean gov is siding with Kespa, that's all.
And I loled at Blizzard trying to sue the only 2 television channels that broadcast SC, so that in the future they can only broadcast SC2 via the internet. So much for a "global attempt" when you can't even get your game into the local TV.
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On November 14 2010 19:11 kamikami wrote:
And I loled at Blizzard trying to sue the only 2 television channels that broadcast SC, so that in the future they can only broadcast SC2 via the internet. So much for a "global attempt" when you can't even get your game into the local TV.
I think this is the main point here. If Blizzard/Gretech wins this, we'll never see SC2 in broadcast television in Korea. Starcraft as a "mainstream" e-sport will be over.
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It's hard to read the logic and made up facts of Kespa supporters without rolling your eyes.
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On November 14 2010 18:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 18:43 IntoTheEmo wrote:On November 14 2010 18:37 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 14 2010 18:28 overt wrote:
So I think it'd be hilarious if KeSPA wins this case to demand Blizzard pay them every year for promoting their game. It wouldn't be anymore ridiculous than the terms offered in the OP. What is ridiculous about the terms offered in the OP? The only thing resembling ridiculous is the 1 year term, but at this point its not really too bad of an idea if KeSPA dissolves due to idiocy. A cheap 1 year term is probably better than the likely much more expensive possibility of a 3 year term (3 year term for KeSPA was 780,000,000 won, whereas the 1 year term was 130,000,000) You make it seem that money is the issue here, have you read disciple's post? It's all about control of the e-sports scene they grew; in my opinion, in this case, it would be idiocy if KeSPA did agree to those terms, there is always potential for revenge-killing from the other side. also from http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=168346¤tpage=240#4793, On November 13 2010 21:49 Gaius Baltar wrote:
Summary of John's speech
He basically encouraged people to follow their hearts if they want to do e-Sports. Even in Korea it is still looked down on by many people who ask, "Why do you play a game as a job? You should grow up." But John says you should ask those people, "Are you truly happy in your job following your dream like I am? Do you have a fan who will make a banner just for you?" He closed by saying, "If you're nervous that you will be all alone if you try to do e-Sports, don't worry. I (John), Dan and Nick will support you. Everyone here at GOM will support you, we love you guys." T_T and look what they are doing to the players/staff in BW. Felt pretty sick reading this yesterday... Follow your heart... The people are the reason esports grew in Korea. KeSPA is just a group of corporations that saw a potential for profit, stepped in and supported it, on a local level. If esports was truly their goal, they would have supported the GOM classic as it supported a much more global approach to esports. This is KeSPA's official goal (according to wikipedia): Its official goal is to make e-Sports an official sporting event, and to solidify the commercial position of e-Sports in all sectors. Note that 2nd part. A group of corporations control KeSPA, and one of their goals is to solidify the commercial position of esports. This is natural, and I am fine with it. I see nothing in the contract that would limit the growth of esports, and I havent seen a global attempt in esports by anybody but GOMtv so far, even in terms of BW. The ONLY thing that isnt good is the 1 year term, but again... why not sign the term for a year instead of try to fight in court? If things go sour in a year, I am pretty sure that the korean courts would intervene to protect it.
Here you are in another thread bringing back the old Zombie of GOMTV Classic yet again (i feel so trolled replying to this but somehow i (stupidly) cant help it).. In case your memory fails you, i ll try to reiterate the points again.
1/ GOMTV Classic was supported for a few seasons (2-3 depending on how you look at it).. Their own unpopularity brought about their downfall.
2/ In the word Kespa, K stands for Korean, i do not see any sense in complaining that they are not reaching out to Europe and America (in fact, people around the world are watching Proleague and Starleagues just fine, much better than (free) streams from GSL too).
3/Now they did try to reach out to China, since China has a good fanbase as well. If you want them to reach out to ur region, give them fans!! If there are 1 million fans in Antartica, they would likely consider flying there for OSL finals.. Blame ur own (EU, NA) society for shunning gaming the way they do.
Lastly, whatever their goals are, you and i probably have about as good a guess as any other. But facts are they have managed to built a stable professional e-Sport scene, and are the only ones that have managed to do so. (If the recent GSL2 finals were at a level that you can consider it e-Sports, then we will just have to agree to disagree).
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On November 14 2010 19:11 kamikami wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 18:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 14 2010 18:43 IntoTheEmo wrote:On November 14 2010 18:37 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 14 2010 18:28 overt wrote:
So I think it'd be hilarious if KeSPA wins this case to demand Blizzard pay them every year for promoting their game. It wouldn't be anymore ridiculous than the terms offered in the OP. What is ridiculous about the terms offered in the OP? The only thing resembling ridiculous is the 1 year term, but at this point its not really too bad of an idea if KeSPA dissolves due to idiocy. A cheap 1 year term is probably better than the likely much more expensive possibility of a 3 year term (3 year term for KeSPA was 780,000,000 won, whereas the 1 year term was 130,000,000) You make it seem that money is the issue here, have you read disciple's post? It's all about control of the e-sports scene they grew; in my opinion, in this case, it would be idiocy if KeSPA did agree to those terms, there is always potential for revenge-killing from the other side. also from http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=168346¤tpage=240#4793, On November 13 2010 21:49 Gaius Baltar wrote:
Summary of John's speech
He basically encouraged people to follow their hearts if they want to do e-Sports. Even in Korea it is still looked down on by many people who ask, "Why do you play a game as a job? You should grow up." But John says you should ask those people, "Are you truly happy in your job following your dream like I am? Do you have a fan who will make a banner just for you?" He closed by saying, "If you're nervous that you will be all alone if you try to do e-Sports, don't worry. I (John), Dan and Nick will support you. Everyone here at GOM will support you, we love you guys." T_T and look what they are doing to the players/staff in BW. Felt pretty sick reading this yesterday... Follow your heart... The people are the reason esports grew in Korea. KeSPA is just a group of corporations that saw a potential for profit, stepped in and supported it, on a local level. If esports was truly their goal, they would have supported the GOM classic as it supported a much more global approach to esports. This is KeSPA's official goal (according to wikipedia): Its official goal is to make e-Sports an official sporting event, and to solidify the commercial position of e-Sports in all sectors. Note that 2nd part. A group of corporations control KeSPA, and one of their goals is to solidify the commercial position of esports. This is natural, and I am fine with it. I see nothing in the contract that would limit the growth of esports, and I havent seen a global attempt in esports by anybody but GOMtv so far, even in terms of BW. The ONLY thing that isnt good is the 1 year term, but again... why not sign the term for a year instead of try to fight in court? If things go sour in a year, I am pretty sure that the korean courts would intervene to protect it. The initial argument of Blizzard fans is that "The broadcasting stations are the reason esports grew in Korea, and Kespa is evil trying to control the broadcasting stations", now that Blizzard is suing the broadcasting stations, and it is clear that both broadcasting stations are siding with Kespa, they say "The people are the reason esports grew in Korea" lol. There would be no esport if OGN didn't try to put a SC match on TV in the first place. If you already signed that ridiculous contract (or I can say, that "slave contract"), no court will intervene to "protect" you, you accepted it in the first place. If they go to court they still have a chance to win because the Korean gov is siding with Kespa, that's all. And I loled at Blizzard trying to sue the only 2 television channels that broadcast SC, so that in the future they can only broadcast SC2 via the internet. So much for a "global attempt" when you can't even get your game into the local TV.
KeSPA is not necessarily evil, they are wrong though. They had no right to sell broadcast rights to TV broadcasters when they were previously broadcasting without paying KeSPA. In addition, the fact that if they dont pay then they get no players to broadcast kind of puts a strangle on them, it forces the contract.
Also, a court (particularly the korean courts, given that they should be wanting to protect e-sports) is very likely to intervene and protect you if the contract that appears after this year contract is over turns out to be absurd. As of right now, the korean courts see that gretech/blizzard have given them a reasonable offer that is comparable if not better than their current contract with KeSPA (the only thing that isnt better is the length, but OGN/MBC paid 8 times more 3 years ago for that 3 year contract). I mean, seriously... there is such a thing where a contract is too absurd and a government would step in to protect a national sport.
Last I checked, having an actual global audience is quite a bit more of a global attempt than never having a real global audience and only a local audience via TV (even if that local audience is large, its not global).
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On November 14 2010 18:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 18:43 IntoTheEmo wrote:On November 14 2010 18:37 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 14 2010 18:28 overt wrote:
So I think it'd be hilarious if KeSPA wins this case to demand Blizzard pay them every year for promoting their game. It wouldn't be anymore ridiculous than the terms offered in the OP. What is ridiculous about the terms offered in the OP? The only thing resembling ridiculous is the 1 year term, but at this point its not really too bad of an idea if KeSPA dissolves due to idiocy. A cheap 1 year term is probably better than the likely much more expensive possibility of a 3 year term (3 year term for KeSPA was 780,000,000 won, whereas the 1 year term was 130,000,000) You make it seem that money is the issue here, have you read disciple's post? It's all about control of the e-sports scene they grew; in my opinion, in this case, it would be idiocy if KeSPA did agree to those terms, there is always potential for revenge-killing from the other side. also from http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=168346¤tpage=240#4793, On November 13 2010 21:49 Gaius Baltar wrote:
Summary of John's speech
He basically encouraged people to follow their hearts if they want to do e-Sports. Even in Korea it is still looked down on by many people who ask, "Why do you play a game as a job? You should grow up." But John says you should ask those people, "Are you truly happy in your job following your dream like I am? Do you have a fan who will make a banner just for you?" He closed by saying, "If you're nervous that you will be all alone if you try to do e-Sports, don't worry. I (John), Dan and Nick will support you. Everyone here at GOM will support you, we love you guys." T_T and look what they are doing to the players/staff in BW. Felt pretty sick reading this yesterday... Follow your heart... The people are the reason esports grew in Korea. KeSPA is just a group of corporations that saw a potential for profit, stepped in and supported it, on a local level. If esports was truly their goal, they would have supported the GOM classic as it supported a much more global approach to esports. This is KeSPA's official goal (according to wikipedia): Its official goal is to make e-Sports an official sporting event, and to solidify the commercial position of e-Sports in all sectors. Note that 2nd part. A group of corporations control KeSPA, and one of their goals is to solidify the commercial position of esports. This is natural, and I am fine with it. I see nothing in the contract that would limit the growth of esports, and I havent seen a global attempt in esports by anybody but GOMtv so far, even in terms of BW. The ONLY thing that isnt good is the 1 year term, but again... why not sign the term for a year instead of try to fight in court? If things go sour in a year, I am pretty sure that the korean courts would intervene to protect it.
Think I disagree with you on this one, while KeSPA did confine BW to Korean TV exclusively, I think having any sort of e-sport broadcasted on TV on TWO channels 24/7 is a huge step towards promoting e-sports. Not to mention the other leagues they started - Tekken, Dungeon Fighter, Sudden Attack, Kart Rider etc. Furthermore, they have experimented expanding BW outside of Korea (Shanghai Korean OSL S2 Finals) and have never stopped any of their progamers from participating in WCG, Blizzcon and other international tournaments.
(To me) it seems like the progamers pulled out of GOM Classic S4 to focus on Proleague/OSL/MSL which is what they are paid to do. There has been speculation that people like Jaedong may have prioritized OSL over GOM to lose to Tempest and EffOrt (he did win two OSLs that year). If KeSPA did not support GOM then, GOM would not have been able to host the STAR Invitational plus Seasons 1 through 3. They also supported MSL in the past.
GOMTV is only internet based media, and while they do have increased numbers of viewers since the GSL started, stirring up trouble with the two major e-sports broadcasting companies is not a good way to get your game across to the public. Ultimately, you'd want SC2 broadcasted on TV so that it is accessible to the general public rather than supporters of the game. Also, have people forgotten that GOMTV initially planned to have no free stream of the first GSL and wanted viewers to pay $20 for live and $30 for VODs per season? Does that show that GOM is trying to promote e-sports to you?
The decision might be simple for you, but faced with conditions like that, I wouldn't want to be in the shoes of whoever's making the decisions in KeSPA.
Edit: Wow do I type slow, about 3 long replies to your post already ><
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On November 14 2010 19:22 Ocedic wrote:
It's hard to read the logic and made up facts of Kespa supporters without rolling your eyes.
I wholeheartedly agree. A lot of dreamers around here trying to give kespa their happy ending when we truly honestly don't know what the hell they are thinking.
It's all about money kids. The world doesn't run on bottle caps.
This sort of reminds me when CounterStrike:Source took over Counterstrike 1.6 over in the states when they were running the big tournaments.
It was new and it was going to cost money to upgrade your hardware to play it. Everyone knew that and now the same thing is happening over in SK.
When GSL for SC2 came out it didn't surprise me their first sponsor was Intel. The way its taking off I guarantee you'll see more hardware sponsors in the upcoming events. Maybe even for the popular players. Intel throws plenty of money around to gamers for sponsorship.
Just embrace the new eSports in SK.. I know I am.
Actually.. didn't BoxeR just receive tons of money from a hardware sponsor just recently? heh.
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On November 14 2010 18:37 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 18:28 overt wrote:
So I think it'd be hilarious if KeSPA wins this case to demand Blizzard pay them every year for promoting their game. It wouldn't be anymore ridiculous than the terms offered in the OP. What is ridiculous about the terms offered in the OP? The only thing resembling ridiculous is the 1 year term, but at this point its not really too bad of an idea if KeSPA dissolves due to idiocy. A cheap 1 year term is probably better than the likely much more expensive possibility of a 3 year term (3 year term for KeSPA was 780,000,000 won, whereas the 1 year term was 130,000,000)
The terms are 100,000,000 won per tournament. MSL and OSL runs around 3 times a year. It works out to cost more. MBC and Kespa both claim that Kespa subsidized part of the production costs too.
Though I wonder if MBC counts managing their team as part of their BW costs.
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On November 14 2010 19:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:
KeSPA is not necessarily evil, they are wrong though. They had no right to sell broadcast rights to TV broadcasters when they were previously broadcasting without paying KeSPA. In addition, the fact that if they dont pay then they get no players to broadcast kind of puts a strangle on them, it forces the contract.
I think you didn't follow the latest news in this issue (search teamliquid). Kespa took the money from OGN/MBC and invested it back to OGN/MBC for their Starleagues, the part of the money that is not invested back it used to maintain/improve Proleague - which is good for OGN/MBC interest because they are the ones who broadcast Proleague too.
That is why OGN/MBC accepted Kespa's offer and not Blizzard's offer, because the terms aren't as ridiculous as Blizzard's. If they are pressured by Kespa they should have sided with Blizzard/Gretech already.
On November 14 2010 19:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Also, a court (particularly the korean courts, given that they should be wanting to protect e-sports) is very likely to intervene and protect you if the contract that appears after this year contract is over turns out to be absurd. As of right now, the korean courts see that gretech/blizzard have given them a reasonable offer that is comparable if not better than their current contract with KeSPA (the only thing that isnt better is the length, but OGN/MBC paid 8 times more 3 years ago for that 3 year contract). I mean, seriously... there is such a thing where a contract is too absurd and a government would step in to protect a national sport.
A contract that gives Blizzard absolute control over the scene is absurd, and as you said, the gov is likely to step in to protect their sport. Do you wonder why Blizzard didn't sue Kespa but the broadcasting stations ? Kespa recently says "as if we cannot win a court battle against a mere game company", strongly implying that their have the gov as their back, so Blizzard has no choice but to put down the broadcasting stations (after several attempts to pull them to their side).
On November 14 2010 19:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Last I checked, having an actual global audience is quite a bit more of a global attempt than never having a real global audience and only a local audience via TV (even if that local audience is large, its not global).
They did have Chinese audience. They don't care about the Western world because the West has no interest in BW whatsoever. SC2 is new and sparks some interests in the West, if SC2 is in the hand of the e-sport department of the Korean Ministry of Culture, it is sure that they will spread that game to the West too (it's easy, set up a stream, invite some good players, they already did that in BW). Blizzard did that for the sake of selling more SC2 in the West, their intention is not even pure at all. When the West lost interest in SC2 (given the attitude of westerners toward gaming this is likely), they will simply give up.
Get the game on TV is the most crucial point for a game to become a sport, BW would not become a sport if the chairman (or CEO) of OGN didn't try to broadcast a match on TV in the first place. Trying to sue the broadcasting stations is the most stupid move in my opinion.
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On November 14 2010 20:07 kamikami wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 19:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:
KeSPA is not necessarily evil, they are wrong though. They had no right to sell broadcast rights to TV broadcasters when they were previously broadcasting without paying KeSPA. In addition, the fact that if they dont pay then they get no players to broadcast kind of puts a strangle on them, it forces the contract.
I think you didn't follow the latest news in this issue (search teamliquid). Kespa took the money from OGN/MBC and invested it back to OGN/MBC for their Starleagues, the part of the money that is not invested back it used to maintain/improve Proleague - which is good for OGN/MBC interest because they are the ones who broadcast Proleague too. That is why OGN/MBC accepted Kespa's offer and not Blizzard's offer, because the terms aren't as ridiculous as Blizzard's. If they are pressured by Kespa they should have sided with Blizzard/Gretech already. Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 19:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Also, a court (particularly the korean courts, given that they should be wanting to protect e-sports) is very likely to intervene and protect you if the contract that appears after this year contract is over turns out to be absurd. As of right now, the korean courts see that gretech/blizzard have given them a reasonable offer that is comparable if not better than their current contract with KeSPA (the only thing that isnt better is the length, but OGN/MBC paid 8 times more 3 years ago for that 3 year contract). I mean, seriously... there is such a thing where a contract is too absurd and a government would step in to protect a national sport.
A contract that gives Blizzard absolute control over the scene is absurd, and as you said, the gov is likely to step in to protect their sport. Do you wonder why Blizzard didn't sue Kespa but the broadcasting stations ? Kespa recently says "as if we cannot win a court battle against a mere game company", strongly implying that their have the gov as their back, so Blizzard has no choice but to put down the broadcasting stations (after several attempts to pull them to their side). Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 19:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Last I checked, having an actual global audience is quite a bit more of a global attempt than never having a real global audience and only a local audience via TV (even if that local audience is large, its not global). They did have Chinese audience. They don't care about the Western world because the West has no interest in BW whatsoever. SC2 is new and sparks some interests in the West, if SC2 is in the hand of the e-sport department of the Korean Ministry of Culture, it is sure that they will spread that game to the West too (it's easy, set up a stream, invite some good players, they already did that in BW). Blizzard did that for the sake of selling more SC2 in the West, their intention is not even pure at all. When the West lost interest in SC2 (given the attitude of westerners toward gaming this is likely), they will simply give up. Get the game on TV is the most crucial point for a game to become a sport, BW would not become a sport if the chairman (or CEO) of OGN didn't try to broadcast a match on TV in the first place. Trying to sue the broadcasting stations is the most stupid move in my opinion.
I apparently havent heard that KeSPA invested all of the money back into the leagues. But, this confuses me... why did the leagues have to pay KeSPA if it was just going to be invested into their own leagues? Why could they not invest it themselves? If they did this, then the whole mess wouldve been avoided in the first place since Blizzard only hopped on KeSPA's case when they started to force the purchase of broadcasting rights from them.
Also, in regards to the lawsuit, why would korea back KeSPA and not back the broadcast stations? If they were to back one, they would logically back the other under the same premise... so why would blizzard have any gain in how they approach the lawsuit? If OGN loses then KeSPA would have logically also lost, if OGN wins then KeSPA also wouldve won.
Its also not just the western world... yes NA has a lot of people, but the EU is also a part of this global aspect of e-sports, and the EU in particular has been fairly good with it in certain areas.
On an aside, I am questioning my own sources on the costs that KeSPA forced onto OGN/MBC, as I have seen some other posts mention 1.7 billion won for 3 years...
Anyway, I dont really have anything more to say on this topic... time will tell and nothing that I say will change anybodies mind. I have tried many times in the past and this is getting just as annoying to discuss as lots of other things that I have stopped discussing.
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EPT
