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On November 14 2010 05:41 Fadetowhite wrote:
thats alot of money to pay for advertising the game for them
Except they're not paying to "advertise for them", they're paying for the right to exploit Blizzard's product in their own business. I wonder who needs this more - a company that just happens to run World of Warcraft with monthly income on the side, or an organization whose sole purpose of existence is leeching off of a game that doesn't belong to them in the first place.
Quite honestly, if this were happening anywhere in Europe or NA, it would be a non-issue and any negotiations would be fairly short and one sided. There is no ground for these guys to negotiate on, so pretty much any terms should be good terms, and $90k is a ridiculously good offer.
Nationwide commercials cost more, yet they claim that an industry that runs pro leagues and teams all backed by corporate sponsors isn't able to generate enough money somewhere to be able to cover a licence for $90k?
It seems that whoever you talk to in Korea, they just push the "no profit" sign in your face and shrug innocently. Well, somebody somewhere down the Korean e-sports rabbit hole is definitely making considerable profit out of it, because that's how the world works. Either that, or all the sponsors aren't churning out nearly enough money for the level of advertising they get through the e-sports scene.
Hello, there's a team with "Samsung" in its name. They got that same name on the shirt of Chelsea Football Club kit (which is alone probably worth more than the entire Korean e-sports), and them alongside several other major corporations backing the BW scene can't ensure that BW broadcasters can cover the petty licence fee and make sure Blizzard's rightful demands are met? See, somehow I don't think so.
I'll even link the football kit deal for you: http://www.footballshirtculture.com/sponsorship/chelsea-and-samsung-keen-to-renew-kit-deal.html
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Seriously, in any other country this would never go to court and the companies would come to a fast agreement. Blizzard didn't care about kespa til 2007 because that when they started trying to sell the IP to broadcasting companies for a game they own.
Personal feelings aside here are my predictions.
There will be a preliminary trial where gretech will try to issue an injunction against the continuation of the league. The judge will issue an injunction to block matches until the trial is over and that is the moment when mbc and ogn will come to their senses. There is nothing wrong with kespa trying to run a starcraft league, otherwise they would have taken down iccup a long time ago, the problem is when kespa tries to sell video broadcasting liscences without approval. I predict a very short negotion with mbc and ogn agreeing to the terms listed in the OP.
EDIT: Took out a part that i wrote when i was angry. Blizzard is a good company and would probably even negotiate for half their amount just to get them to acknowledge IP rights.
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I don't find the demands particularly taxing, though I'm guessing they never were. This whole 4~ year battle has just been a pissing contest between a large corporation who want to cash in on their golden egg, which they left in another gooses nest for 7 years, and a group of large corporations all sticking their heads in the sand while refusing to change their business model built on someone elses property.
Whoever wins, we lose. Neither company is looking for a more progressive model of Esports and both groups are looking out for their own interests. Which is actually a completely understandable stance for both parties.
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1 year is way too short, and complete control over the starleague is bullshit. There's no way ogn/mbc will agree on this term.
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Estonia4504 Posts
On November 14 2010 08:07 darmousseh wrote:
I hope gretech wins and then changes the terms to 200,000,000 won per season. Seriously, in any other country this would never go to court and the companies would come to a fast agreement. Blizzard didn't care about kespa til 2007 because that when they started trying to sell the IP to broadcasting companies for a game they own.
Personal feelings aside here are my predictions.
There will be a preliminary trial where gretech will try to issue an injunction against the continuation of the league. The judge will issue an injunction to block matches until the trial is over and that is the moment when mbc and ogn will come to their senses. There is nothing wrong with kespa trying to run a starcraft league, otherwise they would have taken down iccup a long time ago, the problem is when kespa tries to sell video broadcasting liscences without approval. I predict a very short negotion with mbc and ogn agreeing to the terms listed in the OP.
If it were that way, KeSPA would have changed the name of the tax asked from Broadcasting companies, it would be that simple. Blizzard wants a lot more and also asks for a lot more. If this continues, why wouldn't they want to get rid of ICCup next after they merge SC1 with B.net 2? B.net 2 is excellent for advertising all sorts of junk, earning its owner money.
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Hah, I laugh at you people stating that 1 year is unreasonable. First of all, these are the terms and conditions to use for Blizzard's games/IP to the parties that haven't been working along well together. You have to start negotiating in small steps and somewhere to build a foundation of a good relationship, then you can build better terms and conditions.
IF something bad were to happen to either party when the contract is more than one year, then that party will have to wait longer until the contract ends to change the terms. This offer is just to see if it can work, and if not, then maybe make a better one. The main issue they're striving for is to build a good relationship and negotiations now in small steps, instead of gambling what they have now for many years.
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On November 14 2010 04:49 ]343[ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 04:25 Chibalicious wrote:
Yes it's just an e-sports but you have to ackknowledge how big SC:BW is in Korea. Compared to other e-sports like SC2 in the rest of the world, compared to counterstrike and other great e-sport, SC:BW in Korea is HUGE. What SC2 players and others often dont realise is how great BW is in Korea. With hundreds, maybe even thousands of paid employees, 2 TV-stations and the sponsors involved 90k is a drop in the water.
SC:BW is a great game and an industry that foreigners often cant even comprehend. Blizzard terms wont kill or hurt any of that. Hmm, have you seen this? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=162136MBC actually doesn't make any profits from broadcasting BW... 100 million won is definitely not a small sum. I guess broadcasters should have the Blizzard logo more prominently though.
Let's reverse. Is a 100 million won per year a lot of money to Blizzard ?
No, anyway you look at it - a 100 million won is, to say the least, pocket money for Blizzard. They probably spend more money on champagne everytime they launch a new game.
To Blizzard, there are probably ten more important reason as to why they're doing this rather then just earning a buck or killing off BW. They could have, just as easily, demanded ten times as much money if they effectively wanted to kill off the BW scene.
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On November 14 2010 02:32 kamikami wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 01:57 exeprime wrote:
The anti-blizzard bias here is palpable. The terms are quite normal and reasonable, I fail to see why everyone is so outraged. The terms are extremely unreasonable. Wake up !!!! - 1 year duration contract means that Blizz can end the entire industry whenever they want, it is a freaking industry with many jobs involved, not just some small business. - 50:50 split of broastcasting ownership means that the players/teams/mapmakers don't even have one bit of ownership on what they created. - Everything must be approved by Blizz means that everyone in the industry is Blizz's slaves and Blizz maintains absolute control over the scene - which is shit considering this game has become a sport under the government's approval, there is no way it can be controlled by one foreign company. - And many other smaller things... Actually SC2 players and mapmakers are victims of Blizz's greed too : The EULA states that every game they play belong to Blizz, every maps they make belongs to Blizz, and every broastcasts/vods they make belong to Blizz. Blizz can terminate a player's account for no reason and steal the 60$ whenever they want. They change some terms in Korea because only in that country that the government takes gaming seriously but basically SC2 is not even a fair trade for the player despite its high potential to grow into a mature sport (it won't if Blizz continue to maintain absolute control like that). Battle.Net 2.0 are created with the ultimate purpose to control every people who play the game, every mapmakers who create map for the game, and every tournaments of the game. ALL BELONGS TO THEM. SC2 players are too obsessed with the game that they don't take those issues seriously at all, if SC2 is not "liberated" from Blizz in the future I failed to see how it will evolve into a mature spectator sport. (even now Blizz is suing the 2 only esport television channels, so in the future they can only broadcasts SC2 through internet streams lol, not to mention they go against the government for that). We BW fans have no problem with SC2, but we have problems with Blizz and their greed (omg they make "greed is good" a cheat code for their game, how can people argue against that).
I'm not going to say you are wrong, because neither of us know. In fact, you are probably right. But I do find it how you take everything and just put a worse case scenario to it. Example:
1) 1 Year Duration = END INDUSTRY WHENEVER THEY WANT
Really? Do you really think that one day, they will wake up and say "Well, this is at the very least not profitable (aka they don't get a return). Let us just make sure none of these tournaments run, so we can make sure we kill our company's reputation and kill off any free advertising and long-term basis for our game". Like, you guys do realize its impossible to put Blizzard as the evil money-making bastards, and say they don't want E-sports to succeed, right? They very much want it to succeed. Like WoW, it would be awesome to have a constant revenue without having to rely on game sales.
2) 50/50 split --> Players/map makers get screwed
Well, if they can't even agree on a 50/50, do you think they will agree to a 33/33/33? Players/map makers never even got rights over "what they created" back in BW, so whats the big deal now? I don't see how the introduction of SC2 and the oppression of KESPA does anything BUT give players more freedom and rights over their "content".
"Blizz can terminate a player's account for no reason and steal the 60$ whenever they want. They change some terms in Korea because only in that country that the government takes gaming seriously but basically SC2 is not even a fair trade for the player despite its high potential to grow into a mature sport (it won't if Blizz continue to maintain absolute control like that)."
More like, they reserve the right to terminate a players account if they are cheating, which they really didn't have the ability to do before. Have you heard of a case where Blizzard randomly decided to terminate a players account? No. Have you heard of stories where accounts got banned for cheating? Yes. Is this good? Yes. Are you an idiot? Probably.
3) Everything must be approved by Blizzard --> everyone is SLAVES
Holy shit this is the holy grail of stupid. Really? Actually I'm going to quote your statement just because.
"Everything must be approved by Blizz means that everyone in the industry is Blizz's slaves and Blizz maintains absolute control over the scene - which is shit considering this game has become a sport under the government's approval, there is no way it can be controlled by one foreign company."
Yes, needing your tournaments approved will mean that EVERYONE IN THE INDUSTRY ARE YOUR SLAVES. This is probably so they can keep track of all the tournaments being broadcasted. I can see this being important to them, as these tournaments represent Blizzard and their games, so its pretty important that they can make sure all tournaments are up to par. Or so they can enslave humans in the e-sports industry.
4) Battle.net = CONTROL
Yeah, they get to control pretty much everything. For example, removing/adding ladder maps as they create them. Also, stop cheating players from playing ladder and the ability to clear their ladder stats. OR THEY CAN RANDOMLY BAN ALL THEIR PLAYERS FOR NO REASON. I don't see the logic. Yes they do have the ability to control things very strongly, which is scary. But everything that is in your benefit as a player, is also in their benefit. I don't get it, yo.
5) If the creators don't give up on their game and give it up to the community, e-sports won't mature.
Opposite. The GSL has been a smash hit, MLG has been a smash hit, both not possible without Blizzards help. I don't see why their game needs to be "liberated"? Its actually doing perfectly fine right now. In fact, SC2 has been the defibrillator to e-sports in the world outside Korea. You are actually NOT allowed to make the argument for e-sports and for BW. If you go up to a business man and say "I'll give you a trillion dollars if you make e-sports successful", he'll say okay, kill BW and go full force on SC2. BW will never ever be a smashing hit in Europe or North America. If your idea of a successful e-sport is watching Koreans duke it out at odd hours, then I don't know what to say.
Sounds like you are bitter that more people like SC2 than BW, and is getting a lot of support from everyone and everywhere. Regardless, Blizzard said they want to see both BW and SC2 to succeed, so I don't see why this is even an issue. If I was a business, and I had to decide between one successful product or two, the choice is obvious. If its doable, they will try to do it.
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this is non-sense:
# Contest License Fees: 1 won per year - this can be removed this is joke so they have argument we want 1 won only
# Broadcasting License Fees: 100,000,000 won per season (up to 3 seasons a year)
this license fee is ok if others things bellow are removed...
# Length: One Year
# Ownership Rights: The ownership of the broadcasting material created under this contract will be split 50:50 between the Broadcasting station and Gretech/Blizzard. - this is just way too much.... You either pay license for broadcast right or give 50% ownership both is just nonsense
# Logo and Branding: The Starcraft: Broodwar logo and Blizzard's logo must be clearly visible in the stage, the set, and in broadcasted material - if there is no license fee this is good but 1st you want to get paid then you want free ad... not good way to make business with people that made blizzard so popular in korea and worldwide
# IP rights: Every license needs a clause acknowledging Blizzard for creating the game and for the ownership of the IP.
# Sub-license: Gretech will have the rights to approve all sub-license contracts.
# The revenue from the sub-licenses will be fairly split between Gretech and the Broadcasting Station. I won't comment this becouse I don't realy understand what they mean by sub-license
# Sponsor: All revenue from Sponsorships will be the property of the broadcasting station - Why ? This don't make sense lets split 33 broadcasting station/33 greetech/33 blizard(sarcasm)
# Approval: Whenever you use the Intellectual Property rights, you need approval from Blizzard and Gretech I still don't see how broadcasting someone playing a game require the game developer to allow it ? I want to see how in court greetech will prove that broadcasting a game hurt IP right owner, is it reducing their game sales, is it forcing people to not play or buy the game becouse they prefer to watch pros ?
I'm really pissed off at blizzard and greetec for this.I realy hope they bankrupt and are forced to pay to every single pro sc player money for making their game popular.
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One thing people have to realize is that if Blizzard does lose this and cannot benefit at all by making SC2 a game for esports, is then why would they put resources towards making it an esport game?
Why would any company in the future make a game that is going to be supported well enough with infrastructure, patching, balance, etc to be an esport if they know they won't make any money off of it? It would not make sense for them to do so.
Blizzard deserves to make some money of SC2 and SC:BW being an esport. The question should be how to split that and who deserves what. Kespa seems to be taking the stance that blizzard deserves nothing for making SC:BW. If that's the case, why should blizzard bother making SC2 into a game good enough to be the next big esport?
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I think the terms are reasonable. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't seen a broadcasting contract and are just fueled by the anti-Blizzard sentiment. 1 year is a trial to see if it works and they can trust each other.
Also, ^ mprs is right, you guys are taking things to extreme with conspiracy theories of the worst possible outcomes when it's highly unlikely it'll go that way. Having 2 games running on TV is better than 1. I'll repeat, if it's doable, they will try to do it.
That's about all I've got to say on the subject.
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Agreed, completely unreasonable terms. Fucking Blizzard...I used to be a fan
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On November 14 2010 09:24 Legace wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 04:49 ]343[ wrote:On November 14 2010 04:25 Chibalicious wrote:
Yes it's just an e-sports but you have to ackknowledge how big SC:BW is in Korea. Compared to other e-sports like SC2 in the rest of the world, compared to counterstrike and other great e-sport, SC:BW in Korea is HUGE. What SC2 players and others often dont realise is how great BW is in Korea. With hundreds, maybe even thousands of paid employees, 2 TV-stations and the sponsors involved 90k is a drop in the water.
SC:BW is a great game and an industry that foreigners often cant even comprehend. Blizzard terms wont kill or hurt any of that. Hmm, have you seen this? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=162136MBC actually doesn't make any profits from broadcasting BW... 100 million won is definitely not a small sum. I guess broadcasters should have the Blizzard logo more prominently though. Let's reverse. Is a 100 million won per year a lot of money to Blizzard ? No, anyway you look at it - a 100 million won is, to say the least, pocket money for Blizzard. They probably spend more money on champagne everytime they launch a new game. To Blizzard, there are probably ten more important reason as to why they're doing this rather then just earning a buck or killing off BW. They could have, just as easily, demanded ten times as much money if they effectively wanted to kill off the BW scene.
Yes, but to MBC, 100 million won x 3 seasons is asking for 30,000 dollars from a hobo. They've stated they only break even from broadcasting BW.
There is no doubt why MBC didn't accept the offer. At worst, if MBC gets sued, they can't broadcast proleague. Okay, well atleast they don't lose money this way. However, if MBC does decide to pay the 300 million won per year, along with everything else, they lose pretty much, 300 million won per year. Who in the right mind would pay 300 million won to broadcast something that's only 50% theirs? Honestly, the broadcasted material isn't even all their property.
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it's very simple to me from seeing reactions on these boards what the camps are.
The BW fanatics, they don't care about justice, they don't care what is right, they just want their leagues to continue and for them to keep getting their dose of BW. Nothing wrong with that, completely understandable, i wake up at 6 am to watch proleague, but you are being totally subjective.
You cannot posibly really believe these terms from gretech are somehow abusive in any kind, unless you really dont know how things work in the world. I mean arguing about the 1 year duration by saying that Blizzard can kill the game whenever and they can raise the money if things go well... WELL DUH, ofc that in any bussiness, if things go well the price goes up, if they go bad, price goes down. Its not like when you go rent a condo you are upset if they dont rent it to you for 10 years, or if after 1 year of contract they raise the rent if the condo market sees a high.
1 year is a good time to start a working relation based on trust, and if things go well, i see no reason for Blizzard not to renew it for another year and so on.
There was a great post above, someone discussed the sillyness of actually thinking huge companies like Samsung, Telecom, CJ, actually not gaining anything from the esports scene, being "non profit". That is boloney, they win allot, they dont keep the scene running from the kindness of their hearts or "for the fans".
If Kespa and the broadcasting stations want to keep esports going, there is nothing on that contract that is a "kill deal". Everything is reasonable, from the duration, to the cost, to the acknowledgement of the ip rights, to the sublicensing money sharing.
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On November 14 2010 10:00 renzy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 09:24 Legace wrote:On November 14 2010 04:49 ]343[ wrote:On November 14 2010 04:25 Chibalicious wrote:
Yes it's just an e-sports but you have to ackknowledge how big SC:BW is in Korea. Compared to other e-sports like SC2 in the rest of the world, compared to counterstrike and other great e-sport, SC:BW in Korea is HUGE. What SC2 players and others often dont realise is how great BW is in Korea. With hundreds, maybe even thousands of paid employees, 2 TV-stations and the sponsors involved 90k is a drop in the water.
SC:BW is a great game and an industry that foreigners often cant even comprehend. Blizzard terms wont kill or hurt any of that. Hmm, have you seen this? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=162136MBC actually doesn't make any profits from broadcasting BW... 100 million won is definitely not a small sum. I guess broadcasters should have the Blizzard logo more prominently though. Let's reverse. Is a 100 million won per year a lot of money to Blizzard ? No, anyway you look at it - a 100 million won is, to say the least, pocket money for Blizzard. They probably spend more money on champagne everytime they launch a new game. To Blizzard, there are probably ten more important reason as to why they're doing this rather then just earning a buck or killing off BW. They could have, just as easily, demanded ten times as much money if they effectively wanted to kill off the BW scene. Yes, but to MBC, 100 million won x 3 seasons is asking for 30,000 dollars from a hobo. They've stated they only break even from broadcasting BW. There is no doubt why MBC didn't accept the offer. At worst, if MBC gets sued, they can't broadcast proleague. Okay, well atleast they don't lose money this way. However, if MBC does decide to pay the 300 million won per year, along with everything else, they lose pretty much, 300 million won per year. Who in the right mind would pay 300 million won to broadcast something that's only 50% theirs? Honestly, the broadcasted material isn't even all their property.
they stated ? What costs does mbc have of running their starleague ? Because 300 million would be for 3 seasons of starleague, proleague would be 50k since ogn would pay half i suppose. So they have sponsors that give out the actual cash prizes. What are the operational costs of MBC ? Getting casters, booths, having a place where matches happen, and getting some k pop pussy to sing at the start of the show. They have like a shitload of commercials during those , because surely their proleague and starleague broadcasts are the ones that get the highest ratings, so selling air time should be easiest here. Howcome they dont break even ? They run a bad management if they dont make money off this free stuff, they should move on to something that can work for them if they hardly break even with sc. /sarcasm
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On November 14 2010 09:45 Lunares wrote:
One thing people have to realize is that if Blizzard does lose this and cannot benefit at all by making SC2 a game for esports, is then why would they put resources towards making it an esport game?
Why would any company in the future make a game that is going to be supported well enough with infrastructure, patching, balance, etc to be an esport if they know they won't make any money off of it? It would not make sense for them to do so.
Blizzard deserves to make some money of SC2 and SC:BW being an esport. The question should be how to split that and who deserves what. Kespa seems to be taking the stance that blizzard deserves nothing for making SC:BW. If that's the case, why should blizzard bother making SC2 into a game good enough to be the next big esport?
Well, think about this, how many current e-sports games were released with that in mind?
Blizzard pushed for SC2 to be an e-sport right at the start, capitalizing on BW's success.
DotA grew to become an e-sport, as did CS, WoW, TF2, CoD4..
Basically, the difference here is that Blizzard designed SC2 with e-sports in mind, whereas many other successful games didn't have that; they just grew up through the community.
Also, Blizzard had 0 effort towards what BW became today, which is why many TLers are against them. They stopped b.net ladder like 6-7 years ago, they stopped trying to patch hacks, they stopped releasing new maps and patches. They did NOTHING to develop the game into what we know today AND they constantly say "We will continue to support BW."
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These are very reasonable terms
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hmm
User was warned for this post
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On November 14 2010 10:01 ptz wrote:
it's very simple to me from seeing reactions on these boards what the camps are.
The BW fanatics, they don't care about justice, they don't care what is right, they just want their leagues to continue and for them to keep getting their dose of BW. Nothing wrong with that, completely understandable, i wake up at 6 am to watch proleague, but you are being totally subjective.
You cannot posibly really believe these terms from gretech are somehow abusive in any kind, unless you really dont know how things work in the world. I mean arguing about the 1 year duration by saying that Blizzard can kill the game whenever and they can raise the money if things go well... WELL DUH, ofc that in any bussiness, if things go well the price goes up, if they go bad, price goes down. Its not like when you go rent a condo you are upset if they dont rent it to you for 10 years, or if after 1 year of contract they raise the rent if the condo market sees a high.
1 year is a good time to start a working relation based on trust, and if things go well, i see no reason for Blizzard not to renew it for another year and so on.
There was a great post above, someone discussed the sillyness of actually thinking huge companies like Samsung, Telecom, CJ, actually not gaining anything from the esports scene, being "non profit". That is boloney, they win allot, they dont keep the scene running from the kindness of their hearts or "for the fans".
If Kespa and the broadcasting stations want to keep esports going, there is nothing on that contract that is a "kill deal". Everything is reasonable, from the duration, to the cost, to the acknowledgement of the ip rights, to the sublicensing money sharing.
Sorry to tell you but the guy who knows nothing about RL business is you, broadcasting fees are usually paid for a medium term contract, one year? you got to kidding me, if you dont realize it has nothing to do with broadcasting fees , it is about control, let me explain it to you (i am not condemning Blizz because i would do the same), the main profit of Blizzard in this case is for selling games, SC2 has all this hype and sold very well because is the "sucessor" of SC and that recognition comes from being the only RTS game with a real proscene, any obstacle for Blizzard to assure that kind of recognition for SC2 doesnt look good for its profits, while BW continues kicking ass in the e-sports scene, SC2 will be only a secondary game (lets face it, that game right now is a normal good game but very far from BW, why dou you think that Blizzard marketing is focused in a big money push?), do you really think that people will buy SC3 or whatever in those big amounts if BW remains the king of e-sports?, NOT, because gamers are going to have the feeling that SC2 just was a step backwards from BW, it is all about business and long term money, and no about fans or whatever, but the main reason of the existence of Kespa, and MBC and OGN is BW (for money or recognition), the main reason of Blizzard is selling big amounts of its new games, please think and tell me who are the fans of BW going to support?, once Broadcasters and Kespa give total control to Blizzard, BW proscene wont last more than 2 years, that is for sure.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On November 14 2010 02:12 Iplaythings wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 01:57 exeprime wrote:
The anti-blizzard bias here is palpable. The terms are quite normal and reasonable, I fail to see why everyone is so outraged. They demand that for one year. They arent some company which makes $ but a nonprofit organization, how can you ask that much of someone who doesnt even have the money, the only solution is cutting the prize pool or something, which will affect the players They dont even purchase the rights to be alone, they dont even keep their content or anything I fail to see how the demands ARENT unreasonable
If OGN and MBCgame agrees to these demands, then they have effectively acknowledged that Blizzard owns the ip rights to starcraft broadcasts and they must get Blizzard's approval every time they want to broadcast something starcraft. That's a big problem because Gretech is only offering a 1 year contract. There's no stopping Gretech from demanding (like someone earlier said) OGN and MBCGame's CEO's daughter and 1,000,000,000 won next year. If OGN and MBCgame signs this, bw will die in one year.
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EPT
