EPTHopefully Korea makes gretech/blizzard lose badly in court so that justice, in my opinion is served. (Even if i slightly agree that KeSPA shoud not win it. [Actually make court drop both particapants from whole e-sport scene and install whole new organisation, no more toying with e-sports as this starts to evolve in fight that resembles my youthood with my sister and me fighting over a toy...])
Gretech on PL negotiations - Page 9
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Oozo
Finland432 Posts
Hopefully Korea makes gretech/blizzard lose badly in court so that justice, in my opinion is served. (Even if i slightly agree that KeSPA shoud not win it. [Actually make court drop both particapants from whole e-sport scene and install whole new organisation, no more toying with e-sports as this starts to evolve in fight that resembles my youthood with my sister and me fighting over a toy...]) | ||
Selith
United States238 Posts
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Alaron
United States225 Posts
On October 17 2010 13:06 Selith wrote: If all Gretech wanted was the broadcasting fee, they would have finished up the negotiation long time ago. They want the IP rights recognized, and KeSPA will never accept that. And why not? | ||
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Mortician
Bulgaria2332 Posts
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Rikstah
Australia126 Posts
On October 16 2010 15:21 LunarC wrote: One won? Why not include tournament and broadcasting rights under the same fee.. Wanna get charged 100 million won to host a local tournament at ur net cafe? | ||
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Enigmatics
Korea (South)7 Posts
On October 17 2010 13:04 Jienny wrote: I think gretech is making hasty allmost teen like accusations and actions towards negotiations. KeSPA has stated that they are willingly to pay for broadcasting rights many times, and gretech just keep spitting in their face and stall the negotiations. KeSPA not willing to stall the start of PR, and Gretech getting butthurt about it. This has evolved in situation that we now have in hand, propaganda and smoke screens of trying to get fans fight with each other and get the "Moral victory" before going in court. Hopefully Korea makes gretech/blizzard lose badly in court so that justice, in my opinion is served. (Even if i slightly agree that KeSPA shoud not win it. [Actually make court drop both particapants from whole e-sport scene and install whole new organisation, no more toying with e-sports as this starts to evolve in fight that resembles my youthood with my sister and me fighting over a toy...]) Seriously disagreed. KeSPA willingly to pay broadcasting rights? nope. What they offered is, "Give me your rights, I'll pay 1 mil, and I will sell these rights to broadcasting stations, as I have been doing before." By doing so KeSPA will sustain income that it had before. In short, It is no more than a "OK, OK, take this and get the f**k off, we're fine over here and don't bother us anymore" They have been charging OGN/Mgame over 5~7mil / year. What KeSPA is afraid of is that losing that (illegal) income, by admitting that IP rights over starcraft progaming belongs to Blizzard and gretech. Hosting tournaments? KeSPA does nothing. Playing actual rounds? KeSPA does nothing. Broadcasting over TV/Internet? KeSPA does nothing. But you have to pay KeSPA if you want to host/broadcast SC:BW professional games? This is ridiculous. This WAS ridiculous and it should be corrected now. I partially agree that we need something like KeSPA, but not like it currently is. If possible, it should be an non-profit organization. | ||
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lakeness
7 Posts
On October 17 2010 13:04 Jienny wrote: I think gretech is making hasty allmost teen like accusations and actions towards negotiations. KeSPA has stated that they are willingly to pay for broadcasting rights many times, and gretech just keep spitting in their face and stall the negotiations. KeSPA not willing to stall the start of PR, and Gretech getting butthurt about it. This has evolved in situation that we now have in hand, propaganda and smoke screens of trying to get fans fight with each other and get the "Moral victory" before going in court. Hopefully Korea makes gretech/blizzard lose badly in court so that justice, in my opinion is served. (Even if i slightly agree that KeSPA shoud not win it. [Actually make court drop both particapants from whole e-sport scene and install whole new organisation, no more toying with e-sports as this starts to evolve in fight that resembles my youthood with my sister and me fighting over a toy...]) If KeSPA gain that broadcasting right, it won't be good. KeSPA is trying to buy whole broadcasting right to gain their profit by charging 700mil won from OGN, Mgame, and any other broadcast stations who are willing to broadcast Proleague, which they've been doing this illegally for long time. If KeSPA accept the deal, then OGN and Mgame will now pay only 100mil to Gretech, instead of paying 700mil to KeSPA, and Proleague will be held for only 1 won. This is really good for Proleague, fans, and broadcasters. But KeSPA won't do this deal because they can't make few billion wons they usually made illegally. That's why KeSPA is denying this deal. After all, all KeSPA want is just money off SC1. For fans? eSports? Gamers? Such liars. and about "Moral victory"... If you don't know or understand what KeSPA's been doing, here is a easy way to understand: Blizzard drew a fancy picture. KeSPA began to charge people for looking at that picture. Blizzard tried to negotiate with KeSPA, instead of stopping KeSPA. KeSPA gave a finger to Blizzard. Blizzard urged KeSPA to recognize IP right. KeSPA gave double finger to Blizzard. Blizzard stopped KeSPA for violating IP right KeSPA announced that the picture is public good. Do you still think KeSPA should gain that "Moral victory" now? | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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snowdrift
France2061 Posts
On October 17 2010 15:50 lakeness wrote: Blizzard drew a fancy picture. KeSPA began to charge people for looking at that picture. More like KeSPA invested all the money in the teams and team houses and charged the broadcasters for using their resources like any sport association does. | ||
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zenMaster
Canada761 Posts
On October 17 2010 15:50 lakeness wrote: If KeSPA gain that broadcasting right, it won't be good. KeSPA is trying to buy whole broadcasting right to gain their profit by charging 700mil won from OGN, Mgame, and any other broadcast stations who are willing to broadcast Proleague, which they've been doing this illegally for long time. If KeSPA accept the deal, then OGN and Mgame will now pay only 100mil to Gretech, instead of paying 700mil to KeSPA, and Proleague will be held for only 1 won. This is really good for Proleague, fans, and broadcasters. But KeSPA won't do this deal because they can't make few billion wons they usually made illegally. That's why KeSPA is denying this deal. After all, all KeSPA want is just money off SC1. For fans? eSports? Gamers? Such liars. and about "Moral victory"... If you don't know or understand what KeSPA's been doing, here is a easy way to understand: Blizzard drew a fancy picture. KeSPA began to charge people for looking at that picture. Blizzard tried to negotiate with KeSPA, instead of stopping KeSPA. KeSPA gave a finger to Blizzard. Blizzard urged KeSPA to recognize IP right. KeSPA gave double finger to Blizzard. Blizzard stopped KeSPA for violating IP right KeSPA announced that the picture is public good. Do you still think KeSPA should gain that "Moral victory" now? Did you make this account just to bash Kespa? Either you're trying to stir up shit by posting typical Blizzard-is-good shit or you've been living under a rock. The only thing that can shut these know it all blizz fanboys up is a cold hard ruling by the Korean court. | ||
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dybydx
Canada1764 Posts
Gretech/Blizzard's demand of IP right is rather unusual. normally, a company can approach the IP right holder and offer them a fee or royalty in exchange to reproduce their product on license. ie. software company making a video game or movie about Harry Potter. however, in such case, JK Rowling would not own copyrights over the product. she only collects a fee. she may have some control over the product to ensure they remain true to the Harry Potter series, but that is by far not the same as having 50% of the IP rights. if Blizzard/Gretech own 50% rights, it means EVERY decision, no matter how little or trivial, require their approval. | ||
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lakeness
7 Posts
On October 17 2010 16:00 snowdrift wrote: More like KeSPA invested all the money in the teams and team houses and charged the broadcasters for using their resources like any sport association does. SC1 is not their resource. Sure, they are investing money for teams and team houses. But does that mean they are right to make profit off SC1, which IP right holder did not approved at all? | ||
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lakeness
7 Posts
On October 17 2010 16:06 zenMaster wrote: Did you make this account just to bash Kespa? Either you're trying to stir up shit by posting typical Blizzard-is-good shit or you've been living under a rock. The only thing that can shut these know it all blizz fanboys up is a cold hard ruling by the Korean court. I'm more posting about KeSPA-is-shit, sorry. And I don't think this issue will held in Korean Court. IP right is International issue. Blizzard is United States company, and KeSPA is an organization in Korea. This matter will be most likely held in International Court, which will be big shame for Korea. | ||
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snowdrift
France2061 Posts
On October 17 2010 16:13 lakeness wrote: SC1 is not their resource. Sure, they are investing money for teams and team houses. But does that mean they are right to make profit off SC1, which IP right holder did not approved at all? They don't make a profit. It's an advertisement venture; as a non-profit I assume they reinvest the money into the teams. And I'm pretty sure 700 million won doesn't cover their costs at all. It's been said before: the issue isn't money, since KeSPA is willing to pay Gretech, but control. | ||
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urashimakt
United States1591 Posts
On October 17 2010 11:26 hydraden wrote: Even though people say KeSPA is violating the IP rights, I still don't believe the so called IP rights from GreTech. Why is KeSPA willing to pay something to broadcast, it is not to acknowledge the IP rights of GreTech, they are just trying to avoid the lawsuit. Now negotiation is broken down, I hope this goes to court, then we can see how much is this IP right thing from Blizzard really worth. I believe it is not worth as much as Blizzard claimed to be. To reiterate what's already been stated multiple times in this thread and the Gretech-KeSPA negotiations breakdown thread, that breakdown never actually happened. The negotiations have been ongoing without any stated problem since they said they reopened them. Not sure where that article came from, but it was wrong. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5419 Posts
On October 17 2010 09:04 PrinceXizor wrote: I love how in this thread, people say "koreans like kespa and gretech is wrong" using korean opinion as justification and evidence, and then others come in and correct them, that koreans actually vastly oppose kespa, and then korean opinion is just dismissed since they no longer agree with the anti-gretech side. I've never used Korean opinion as justification (at least I don't remember doing so). On October 17 2010 10:06 Selith wrote: KeSPA did good when the original chairman (who was in the game biz before) was in power. After SK took over (instituting a chairman that had no idea about the game biz), they almost killed BW proscene once because they wanted 1.7 trillion won from IEG, and 500 million won from both broadcasters each as broadcasting fee. They also said they reserved full rights to broadcasting and products made through it. Right now, they are pushing for a law in which, it would give KeSPA full control over the intellectual property of games (whether it's foreign or domestic-made) that will be involved in e-sports. Whatever good they did post-SK chairman does not make up for what they are doing. As far as I remember, they did not want 1.7T won AND 500M won from IEG and OGN/MBC respectively. They asked OGN/MBC money for broadcasting rights to ProLeague (and not, StarCraft in general or all leagues, as some people are saying, spreading misinformation), which is largely their (KeSPA's - 11 team sponsors, the officials, as well as ShinHan Bank, I believe) product. They approached OGN/MBC first with an offer (I'm assuming it was that 500M won you mentioned, don't have the time to do the research and check whether the amount you gave is accurate). When they both declined, they made a public bidding for the rights and IEG offered the most. As for SKT taking over, interestingly, wikipedia claims that it only happened is 2008, which is after the ProLeague rights scandal, which took place in 2007. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_e-Sports_Players_Association Not only that - KeSPA did not ask for the money to generate profit - they reinvested it back into esports. Since 2007 we've had: 1) ProLeague change to a 5 round system, one round being Winner's League (with a separate prizepool, IIRC) in the 08-09 season. 2) ProLeague change to a 6 round system, two rounds being Winner's League (not sure how prizepools are going to be distributed yet) for the 10-11 season. 3) KeSPA adressing the imbalanced maps issue in ProLeague (rules change). 4) The introduction of Minor/Dream League. 5) KeSPA LAUNCHING SPECIAL FORCE PROLEAGUE (I know it's not related to BW, but it's a major development). 6) KeSPA helping former Pantech EX team find a new sponsor. 7) KeSPA helping former Hanbit Stars team find a new sponsor. 8) KeSPA working on an esports university sort of thing (don't know the details). 9) Shinhan Bank continuing to sponsor ProLeague despite the whole gretech-KeSPA negotations fiasco. On top of that, KeSPA also helps in developing other games' esports scenes (my knowledge is limited in that regard), colaborates in hosting various international events in Asia, cooperates with gaming associations from Japan, the UK, etc. OGN and MBC (they're part of KeSPA) launched their realities. OGN got a major sponsor for OSL and hosted one of the finals abroad, in Shanghai. It also made broadcasting deals with Chinese broadcasters. Not to mention the fact that they keep sustaining the progaming teams (which costs millions of dollars a year per team), broadcasting leagues, and supplying the scene with new quality maps. I'm sure there's more, but I believe this alone is enough to prove that KeSPA is not that bad. ;] On October 17 2010 11:16 Antoine wrote: simply WOW @ KeSPA apologists. i realize you guys love bw (i do too) so you think you love kespa since they're associated with bw, but they aren't jesus like you seem to think. Nobody's ever implied that they're innocent. What are you on about... | ||
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mustaju
Estonia4504 Posts
On October 17 2010 16:23 snowdrift wrote: They don't make a profit. It's an advertisement venture; as a non-profit I assume they reinvest the money into the teams. And I'm pretty sure 700 million won doesn't cover their costs at all. It's been said before: the issue isn't money, since KeSPA is willing to pay Gretech, but control. This. As for the approval part, I have a few questions someone more knowledgeable might be able to answer. I understand that movies shouldn't be reproduced, nor music. However, when you watch someone play SC2 on a stream that operates without Blizzard permission, are you committing an offense against Intellectual Property? How many streamers have Blizzard permission? How is that different from Blizzard's perspective than, say, a tournament without their permission? Maybe streamers should pay Blizzard to be allowed to stream? | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5419 Posts
On October 17 2010 11:18 lakeness wrote: 1 sentence summary of this article: 1 won for the tournament, 100mil won for broadcasting fee was what Gretech offered, KeSPA reject this offer. I see why KeSPA did not wanted to take Gretech's offer. Stop pulling bullshit statements like that out of your ass. There has been no news of KeSPA rejecting that offer. KeSPA used to charge broadcasters for broadcasting Proleague, which i believe is like 700mil won. If they take Gretech's offer, they won't make money like they used to since this offer will not grant total broadcasting right to KeSPA. That's why they offered 300mil to Gretech so they can have all the broadcasting right and make 700mil from each broadcasters. This isn't about money. This is about control. If gretech repeats any of the ridiculous demands blizzard gave KeSPA, then I don't see how KeSPA could accept them. Here's what some of the euphemisms coming from gretech may mean: "We are trying to say that license is needed to broadcast games, and acknowledge that Blizzard owns IP rights to all Blizzard games." = "Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan." and "GomTV is not looking to take just the money from Korea e-sports scene through the license. It's to protect the IP rights, which is a very important right for the content businesses, as well as their right to keep it." = "4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos." Also "The goal is to further increase the size of e-sports, as well as to make it more active through our involvement. To do this, it is important to create a strong relations with the players, teams, other broadcasting stations, and other partners, not just GomTV's own tournaments." might suggest they're still going to try to enforce contracts with progamers that'll override the contracts with their actual sponsors. If KeSPA really wanted to devote for the SC1 scene and SC1 fans, they should have made agreement with Blizzard in first hand. But, they kept denying IP right, making huge money off charging broadcasters for 10 years, even though they didn't even have a license, and try to cover up all these bs by announcing "SC1 is public good", which is not even true. This is why most of Korean SC fans, even SC1 fans, hate KeSPA; KeSPA wants to make money off SC1 and that's all. P.S. I do not want the SC1 scene to die either. Don't misunderstand me. I just hate KeSPA being super idiot. No, they were not denying blizzard's IP rights (at least not at first). They were defending their perceived rights to derivative work - PL, OSL and MSL. "But, they kept denying IP right, making huge money off charging broadcasters for 10 years" That is an OUTRIGHT LIE. You really are trying to stir shit up. They were not charging broadcasters until 2007, and they reinvest all the money, they are not making any profit off of it... KeSPA would've been "super idiot" had they accepted those ridiculous conditions: 1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year 2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan 3. All progamers under Kespa are to sigh a contract with Blizzard that overrides that of Kespa. 4. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement 5. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos 6. Right to audit KeSPA ... Korean fans hate KeSPA because KeSPA has done plenty wrong, BUT they take whatever KeSPA's done good FOR GRANTED. | ||
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Ryo
8787 Posts
On October 17 2010 17:31 maybenexttime wrote: I've never used Korean opinion as justification (at least I don't remember doing so). As far as I remember, they did not want 1.7T won AND 500M won from IEG and OGN/MBC respectively. They asked OGN/MBC money for broadcasting rights to ProLeague (and not, StarCraft in general or all leagues, as some people are saying, spreading misinformation), which is largely their (KeSPA's - 11 team sponsors, the officials, as well as ShinHan Bank, I believe) product. They approached OGN/MBC first with an offer (I'm assuming it was that 500M won you mentioned, don't have the time to do the research and check whether the amount you gave is accurate). When they both declined, they made a public bidding for the rights and IEG offered the most. As for SKT taking over, interestingly, wikipedia claims that it only happened is 2008, which is after the ProLeague rights scandal, which took place in 2007. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_e-Sports_Players_Association Not only that - KeSPA did not ask for the money to generate profit - they reinvested it back into esports. Since 2007 we've had: 1) ProLeague change to a 5 round system, one round being Winner's League (with a separate prizepool, IIRC) in the 08-09 season. 2) ProLeague change to a 6 round system, two rounds being Winner's League (not sure how prizepools are going to be distributed yet) for the 10-11 season. 3) KeSPA adressing the imbalanced maps issue in ProLeague (rules change). 4) The introduction of Minor/Dream League. 5) KeSPA LAUNCHING SPECIAL FORCE PROLEAGUE (I know it's not related to BW, but it's a major development). 6) KeSPA helping former Pantech EX team find a new sponsor. 7) KeSPA helping former Hanbit Stars team find a new sponsor. 8) KeSPA working on an esports university sort of thing (don't know the details). 9) Shinhan Bank continuing to sponsor ProLeague despite the whole gretech-KeSPA negotations fiasco. On top of that, KeSPA also helps in developing other games' esports scenes (my knowledge is limited in that regard), colaborates in hosting various international events in Asia, cooperates with gaming associations from Japan, the UK, etc. OGN and MBC (they're part of KeSPA) launched their realities. OGN got a major sponsor for OSL and hosted one of the finals abroad, in Shanghai. It also made broadcasting deals with Chinese broadcasters. Not to mention the fact that they keep sustaining the progaming teams (which costs millions of dollars a year per team), broadcasting leagues, and supplying the scene with new quality maps. I'm sure there's more, but I believe this alone is enough to prove that KeSPA is not that bad. ;] Nobody's ever implied that they're innocent. What are you on about... 10) Finding temporary housing/lodging for former estro players when the team dissolved. Arranging practice facilities for them at Yongsan (in coorperation with OGN) 11) Using the bidding system during the estro draft with a minimum wage in place. Action for example got a significant pay rise. | ||
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PandaPolice
Australia86 Posts
On October 17 2010 17:46 mustaju wrote: This. As for the approval part, I have a few questions someone more knowledgeable might be able to answer. I understand that movies shouldn't be reproduced, nor music. However, when you watch someone play SC2 on a stream that operates without Blizzard permission, are you committing an offense against Intellectual Property? How many streamers have Blizzard permission? How is that different from Blizzard's perspective than, say, a tournament without their permission? Maybe streamers should pay Blizzard to be allowed to stream? Hrm...the streamers aren't charging anyone for the stream, they can ask for donations, which I think Blizzard don't have authority over. Big corporations like these are also less likely to go after small fry unless they hurt Blizzard's property on a large scale (SC2 hack makers) | ||
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