Gretech has announced their stance in regards to the recent, problematic IP rights negotiations.
GomTV has posted "IP rights negotiations and GomTV's stance" through GSL community homepage in 16th. Right now, there has been a lot of interest in what Gretech will do from now on, after the announcement of Shinhan Proleague 10-11 season.
Gretech stated, "To this day, we have been very careful in what we state in open, but it appears our silence is causing more confusion for the fans. So today, we are going to state our stance in the IP rights negotiations currently in progress."
GomTV has denied the opinion that they wish to wholly own and control the license to Blizzard games. GomTV said, "The goal is to further increase the size of e-sports, as well as to make it more active through our involvement. To do this, it is important to create a strong relations with the players, teams, other broadcasting stations, and other partners, not just GomTV's own tournaments."
GomTV continued, "Our ultimate goal, is to provide a way to enjoy e-sports broadcast for those who enjoy StarCraft the most in the world, Korean gamers."
We also confirmed their stance in the IP rights negotiations. GomTV started by stating the IP rights and its protection worldwide, "GomTV is not looking to take just the money from Korea e-sports scene through the license. It's to protect the IP rights, which is a very important right for the content businesses, as well as their right to keep it."
GomTV also revealed some of their requests. GomTV said, "It is not normal to openly reveal all of the negotiation and what we requested, but to relieve of all the misunderstanding, we will use the following requests. They are same for all e-sports groups interested in StarCraft tournaments and broadcasting."
GomTV has said the following for their negotiation requirements:
First is the fees. GomTV stated, 'Each tournaments will cost 1 won (ed. That's not a mistranslation, it really said 1 won), and broadcasting fee is 100 million won'. The reason for the broadcasting fee is to have only the corporations who are capable planning a high-quality e-sports tournaments, broadcasting, and provide high-quality broadcast for the players and the viewers. In addition, GomTV stated, 'For this Proleague, we plan to donate all of the negotiation fees to a scholarship entity.'.
The re-negotiation, assuming in good faith, is once every year, and the rights to the broadcasting materials are 50:50. As for the IP, "We are trying to say that license is needed to broadcast games, and acknowledge that Blizzard owns IP rights to all Blizzard games."
As for the sub-licensing, "With this right, the rights holder will be able to select and negotiate a broadcasting station for a tournament or leagues. GomTV has the right to assign the sub-licensees, but we will not abuse it." At this point, GomTV stated, "For Proleague only, we are willing to allow OGN and MBCGame to broadcast without any additional negotiations."
Also, GomTV stated that whoever has the sub-license will be holding onto entirety of sponsorship money, and has revealed that they can state how to use GomTV logo, StarCraft logo, and Blizzard logo to be used in tournaments and broadcasts.
Lastly, GomTV said, "Through this article, we hope it has alleviated some of the worries and curiosity of the fans. GomTV's doors are always open to anyone who would want to cooperate for the e-sports business."
(I omitted long original article posted at GomTV website)
Edit: Since people seem to think this means GomTV won't file a lawsuit, here is a part of the translation from original GomTV article by Enigmatics:
I'm afraid but I have to say : there are few misunderstandings about this issue - Gretech is preparing legal actions and is appealing to the fans that it is inevitable, neccesary action.
- 스타크래프트는 공공재가 아닙니다. 이것은 블리자드가 시간과 자원 및 인력을 투자한 결과물이며, 곰TV는 한국에서의 블리자드 공인 파트너로서 국내 스타크래프트 리그가 합법적인 방식으로 지속되도록 국내 파트너와 계약을 진행하고자 많은 노력을 기울여 왔습니다.
Crude translation : Starcraft is NOT AN PUBLIC GOOD. It resulted from resources and manpowers that blizzard had invested, and GomTV, as the official partner of blizzard entertainment, has taken enourmous efforts to make contracts with the domestic partners, for that make it sure SC:BW leagues is legal.
곰TV는 최악의 상황을 피하기 위해 아직도 주어진 시간 내에 합의에 이를 수 있도록 최선의 노력을 기울이고 있습니다. 그러나 저희의 이러한 노력에도 불구하고 최악의 상황이 발생한다면, 앞으로 저희가 취할 수 밖에 없는 후속 조치에 대해 이해해주시기를 부탁 드립니다.
Crude translation : GomTV is doing its best efforts to achieve mutual agreements in the given time limit in order to avoid the worst scenario. But if, regardless of our efforts, the worst happens, please understand that we will be forced to take 'extra action'.
They want SC tournaments to open freely as whoever wants to, like we have with SC2 tournaments here, without worrying about anything. It's a separate ones for those who won't be broadcasting the tournament through major cable TV broadcasters.
man fruit dealer almost has enough money to start a broadcast tournament ! :D
on topic : I think that this is a step in the right direction.. but it could just be gretech trying to look good since they've been getting flak in korea over the cease of negotiations I believe.. idk.. wish it would all just work itself out
About the 100million won fee for tournaments - didn't KeSPA say that the max they would go to was 55-60million? I think it was in one of the news posts about the negotiations.
Also, why is this post released now? If they really cared about the scene this could've come two weeks ago. There is nothing earth shattering in the document. Only when KeSPA went ahead with the SPL despite there being no contract and possibly facing a lawsuit do they decide to speak up. GomTV/Gretech are handling this like amateurs. Shows how much Blizzard really cares about BW.
On October 16 2010 15:15 Selith wrote: First is the fees. GomTV stated, 'Each tournaments will cost 1 won (ed. That's not a mistranslation, it really said 1 won), and broadcasting fee is 100 million won'. The reason for the broadcasting fee is to have only the corporations who are capable planning a high-quality e-sports tournaments, broadcasting, and provide high-quality broadcast for the players and the viewers.
On October 16 2010 15:15 Selith wrote: First is the fees. GomTV stated, 'Each tournaments will cost 1 won (ed. That's not a mistranslation, it really said 1 won), and broadcasting fee is 100 million won'. The reason for the broadcasting fee is to have only the corporations who are capable planning a high-quality e-sports tournaments, broadcasting, and provide high-quality broadcast for the players and the viewers.
A jab at MBC's incompetence?
pretty sure MBC broadcasts better than Gom.
MBC is one of the major broadcasting stations in Korea, if you don't realise.
On October 16 2010 15:50 xBillehx wrote: Does this finally quell the rumor of Gretech wanting to kill BW? Lol
Not really. The article does not mean to say that Gretech isn't interested in stopping "illegal" tournaments and leagues. Note how they reinforce the idea of IP rights and how important it is. KeSPA refuses to acknowledge any and all IP rights whatsoever involving StarCraft.
So storm isn't over yet. Gretech is only willing to let Proleague etc. to continue only if negotiations are finalized. Otherwise...
On October 16 2010 15:15 Selith wrote: GomTV said, "The goal is to further increase the size of e-sports, as well as to make it more active through our involvement.
Gretech are acting about 1000% more mature in all of this than KeSPA. I always had my doubts about the things KeSPA kept saying, and the attitude they described regarding Gretech. Good move by Gretech to stay silent and not sink to the same level.
Gretech hasn't been straight up on their goals all throughout negotiations. Of course when a company speaks directly to fans they'll phrase things in a way that sounds pleasing to the ear, even if it's not true.
Until the end they didn't want MBC to broadcast for trivial reasons.
On October 16 2010 15:15 Selith wrote: First is the fees. GomTV stated, 'Each tournaments will cost 1 won (ed. That's not a mistranslation, it really said 1 won), and broadcasting fee is 100 million won'. The reason for the broadcasting fee is to have only the corporations who are capable planning a high-quality e-sports tournaments, broadcasting, and provide high-quality broadcast for the players and the viewers.
A jab at MBC's incompetence?
pretty sure MBC broadcasts better than Gom.
MBC is one of the major broadcasting stations in Korea, if you don't realise.
lol
mbc have tech problems every two or three games. gom is more competent right now.
On October 16 2010 15:50 xBillehx wrote: Does this finally quell the rumor of Gretech wanting to kill BW? Lol
Not really. The article does not mean to say that Gretech isn't interested in stopping "illegal" tournaments and leagues. Note how they reinforce the idea of IP rights and how important it is. KeSPA refuses to acknowledge any and all IP rights whatsoever involving StarCraft.
So storm isn't over yet. Gretech is only willing to let Proleague etc. to continue only if negotiations are finalized. Otherwise...
Right, but the rumors were that Gretech was imposing some unreasonable demands that KeSPA would never accept because they wanted to kill BW for SC2. Yet here are (in my opinion) pretty reasonable terms and the assurance that the BW Proleague is continuing on both MBC and OGN. The idea that KeSPA refuses to acknowledge anything means it'd be KeSPA killing other BW leagues, not Gretech. I just fail to see the intent to kill BW from Gretechs statement. (Assuming this is all true.)
Though really, I hope KeSPA does acknowledge it so all BW leagues can continue alongside SC2 until, if ever, it dies of old age.
On October 16 2010 15:46 Emon_ wrote: About the 100million won fee for tournaments - didn't KeSPA say that the max they would go to was 55-60million? I think it was in one of the news posts about the negotiations.
Also, why is this post released now? If they really cared about the scene this could've come two weeks ago. There is nothing earth shattering in the document. Only when KeSPA went ahead with the SPL despite there being no contract and possibly facing a lawsuit do they decide to speak up. GomTV/Gretech are handling this like amateurs. Shows how much Blizzard really cares about BW.
On October 16 2010 15:46 Emon_ wrote: About the 100million won fee for tournaments - didn't KeSPA say that the max they would go to was 55-60million? I think it was in one of the news posts about the negotiations.
Also, why is this post released now? If they really cared about the scene this could've come two weeks ago. There is nothing earth shattering in the document. Only when KeSPA went ahead with the SPL despite there being no contract and possibly facing a lawsuit do they decide to speak up. GomTV/Gretech are handling this like amateurs. Shows how much Blizzard really cares about BW.
Kespa offered 300 million won I think
Yeah, that was reported in one of the other threads. And it was stated that Gretech rejected the 300 million won. What gives?
On October 16 2010 16:16 QuothTheRaven wrote: Yeah, that was reported in one of the other threads. And it was stated that Gretech rejected the 300 million won. What gives?
Gretech wants IP rights acknowledged more than the money.
Gretech playing the good cop bad cop, first being bad doing dumb shit like throwing a fit over MBC, now playing PR trying to get a good image with the public. Best thing for BW E-Sports is to just take the money and leave Kespa alone.
On October 16 2010 16:16 QuothTheRaven wrote: Yeah, that was reported in one of the other threads. And it was stated that Gretech rejected the 300 million won. What gives?
Gretech wants IP rights acknowledged more than the money.
Yeah IP rights have nothing to do with money. Oh wait.
On October 16 2010 16:10 stafu wrote: Gretech are acting about 1000% more mature in all of this than KeSPA. I always had my doubts about the things KeSPA kept saying, and the attitude they described regarding Gretech. Good move by Gretech to stay silent and not sink to the same level.
Lol, this isn't about maturity.
Gretech has had nothing to lose up until this point. It's only now that their image is in danger of taking a hit that they're doing PR like this.
On the other hand, KeSPA and everyone involved in BW had every reason to try and get public support right away to keep the leagues alive.
On October 16 2010 16:16 QuothTheRaven wrote: Yeah, that was reported in one of the other threads. And it was stated that Gretech rejected the 300 million won. What gives?
Gretech wants IP rights acknowledged more than the money.
Yeah IP rights have nothing to do with money. Oh wait.
Indeed, the IP has to do with money. But everything a company does has to do with money. Putting that point aside, I think Gretech is seeking to set a precedent for IP rights. Blizzard/any publisher would be that much stronger when arguing for IP rights in the future, and that seems to be exactly what they're aiming for.
On October 16 2010 16:19 zenMaster wrote: Gretech playing the good cop bad cop, first being bad doing dumb shit like throwing a fit over MBC, now playing PR trying to get a good image with the public. Best thing for BW E-Sports is to just take the money and leave Kespa alone.
Exactly. They realized what they were doing was retarded, especially for their image. At least PL is safe !
On October 16 2010 16:19 zenMaster wrote: Gretech playing the good cop bad cop, first being bad doing dumb shit like throwing a fit over MBC, now playing PR trying to get a good image with the public. Best thing for BW E-Sports is to just take the money and leave Kespa alone.
Exactly. They realized what they were doing was retarded, especially for their image. At least PL is safe !
LOL at all the people panning Gretech anyways. When rumours from Kespa were being leaked, people were up in arms saying that Gretech is trying to kill E-sports, all based on rumours.
Gretech are fans of Starcraft themselves, they used to run their own tournaments. All is good with the world.
On October 16 2010 16:10 stafu wrote: Gretech are acting about 1000% more mature in all of this than KeSPA. I always had my doubts about the things KeSPA kept saying, and the attitude they described regarding Gretech. Good move by Gretech to stay silent and not sink to the same level.
Lol, this isn't about maturity.
Gretech has had nothing to lose up until this point. It's only now that their image is in danger of taking a hit that they're doing PR like this.
On the other hand, KeSPA and everyone involved in BW had every reason to try and get public support right away to keep the leagues alive.
Although on TL we have plenty of folks willing to bash Blizzard/Gretech, if you read the comments on Korean media you'll find KeSPA is under way more fire from the fans (who post online).
Yeah, seriously. There's been so much bullshit going on and these guys are taking zero-sum negotiation to a whole new level.
Next thing you know, they'll be claiming that Kespa wanted to pay 300 million won but Gretech only wanted 100 million and that they fought over it like Chinese people do over a dinner check.
On October 16 2010 16:45 andrewlt wrote: Next thing you know, they'll be claiming that Kespa wanted to pay 300 million won but Gretech only wanted 100 million and that they fought over it like Chinese people do over a dinner check.
Blizzard should never have negotiated with Gretech in the first place, they're idiots. This sounds like a step in the right direction but the problem is Gretech has exclusive rights anyway, which is a total absurdity.
On October 16 2010 16:53 Ancestral wrote: Blizzard should never have negotiated with Gretech in the first place, they're idiots. This sounds like a step in the right direction but the problem is Gretech has exclusive rights anyway, which is a total absurdity.
Blizzard wanted to negotiate with KeSPA first. KeSPA said "lolno".
On October 16 2010 16:19 zenMaster wrote: Gretech playing the good cop bad cop, first being bad doing dumb shit like throwing a fit over MBC, now playing PR trying to get a good image with the public. Best thing for BW E-Sports is to just take the money and leave Kespa alone.
I get the feeling that they wouldn't have released this statement had proleague not gone ahead and started today without their approval.
So much for taking legal action. Anyway they were playing with big guns like SKT and their army of lawyers/PR pple. So it's not unexpected.
At this point, I'm just tired of the drama. As long as proleague/BW proscene survives, I'll be happy.
No matter what, Gretech is losing the PR war. They should have clarify their standing immediately when rumours started to pile up and Kespa released their side of story. No one will know if Gretech had these very intentions in the beginning or just bandaids to save their face.
Now Gretech looks weak for caving in, suspicious for hiding their original intent and they need to do more than just this to repair their image.Their Naivety for keeping to the NDA is hurting themselves.
On October 16 2010 15:15 Selith wrote: First is the fees. GomTV stated, 'Each tournaments will cost 1 won (ed. That's not a mistranslation, it really said 1 won), and broadcasting fee is 100 million won'. The reason for the broadcasting fee is to have only the corporations who are capable planning a high-quality e-sports tournaments, broadcasting, and provide high-quality broadcast for the players and the viewers.
A jab at MBC's incompetence?
I think less that and more a justification for their fee.
I still have trouble to see what the problem is in the negotiations.
Excuse my ignorance, but if anyone could clear up some questions I have, that would be greatly appreciated.
Apparently, the tournament fee is 1 won and the broadcasting fee is 100 million won.
KeSPA offered 300 million won, but the offer was rejected. According to Selith on page two of this thread, IP rights were not acknowledged in the offer.
So because KeSPA does not want to acknowledge that all rights to Starcraft belong to Blizzard, that this is happening?
On October 16 2010 18:08 Science Vessel wrote: I still have trouble to see what the problem is in the negotiations.
Excuse my ignorance, but if anyone could clear up some questions I have, that would be greatly appreciated.
Apparently, the tournament fee is 1 won and the broadcasting fee is 100 million won.
KeSPA offered 300 million won, but the offer was rejected. According to Selith on page two of this thread, IP rights were not acknowledged in the offer.
So because KeSPA does not want to acknowledge that all rights to Starcraft belong to Blizzard, that this is happening?
Blizzard made a list of 6 demands to Kespa. I can't remember all of them off-hand but one of them included the right to vet Kespa's books. It's these 6 demands that are the stumbling block.
"The goal is to further increase the size of e-sports, as well as to make it more active through our involvement. To do this, it is important to create a strong relations with the players, teams, other broadcasting stations, and other partners, not just GomTV's own tournaments."
As for the sub-licensing, "With this right, the rights holder will be able to select and negotiate a broadcasting station for a tournament or leagues. GomTV has the right to assign the sub-licensees, but we will not abuse it." At this point, GomTV stated, "For Proleague only, we are willing to allow OGN and MBCGame to broadcast without any additional negotiations."
This sounds so idiotic. Obviously, after proleague started they cant bark anymore and are too afraid to bring the case to court. I hope Kespa will revive MSL under their name.
As for the sub-licensing, "With this right, the rights holder will be able to select and negotiate a broadcasting station for a tournament or leagues. GomTV has the right to assign the sub-licensees, but we will not abuse it." At this point, GomTV stated, "For Proleague only, we are willing to allow OGN and MBCGame to broadcast without any additional negotiations."
This sounds so idiotic. Obviously, after proleague started they cant bark anymore and are too afraid to bring the case to court. I hope Kespa will revive MSL under their name.
Given that they were unable to stop proleague, I think the main obstacle that's standing in the way of MSL now is a sponsor. If MSL can get a sponsor, maybe MBC can get the tournament running.
To me it sounds like Gretech got owned by KeSPA and now try to make it look like they care about the BW scene to save face. What happened with their demands to change the PL schedual in order to not have any competition for their league? And didn't KeSPA already offer them 300 milion won for proleague?
Besides, how does letting only "serious broadcasters" (ie the ones that can pay money to Gretech) broadcast SC leagues strengthen the e-sports scene? I mean minorleague, zotac etc etc didn't exactly damage the BW scene... If they can't have their league because the competition is to strong, it's best for e-sports if they die. Hypocrites.
Nice to see Gretech retrieving. There's no way a game can be a true eSport without it being free. The game needs to belong to the community, not the corporation. Sure there's a fee for getting the game, but that should be it. If Blizz had it its own way with SCBW, it would have never been what it is today, a true eSport.
On October 16 2010 19:08 Elroi wrote: Besides, how does letting only "serious broadcasters" (ie the ones that can pay money to Gretech) broadcast SC leagues strengthen the e-sports scene? I mean minorleague, zotac etc etc didn't exactly damage the BW scene... If they can't have their league because the competition is to strong, it's best for e-sports if they die. Hypocrites.
you didnt understand that part EVERYONE can make a tournament basically for free (1 won which is under 0,01€) while you have to pay 100 million won (about 90 000$) to broadcast a tournament on tv. this is to allow amateur tournaments for everyone (pc band owners or something like that), but at the same time having a hurdle that has to be taken to show that your professional enough to create a decent broadcasted tournament.
On October 16 2010 19:08 Elroi wrote: Besides, how does letting only "serious broadcasters" (ie the ones that can pay money to Gretech) broadcast SC leagues strengthen the e-sports scene? I mean minorleague, zotac etc etc didn't exactly damage the BW scene... If they can't have their league because the competition is to strong, it's best for e-sports if they die. Hypocrites.
you didnt understand that part EVERYONE can make a tournament basically for free (1 won which is under 0,01€) while you have to pay 100 million won (about 90 000$) to broadcast a tournament on tv. this is to allow amateur tournaments for everyone (pc band owners or something like that), but at the same time having a hurdle that has to be taken to show that your professional enough to create a decent broadcasted tournament.
That's what I meant, with these rules tournaments like Zotac (atleast how it was organized in BW) and minorleague won't happen. Why don't let anyone broadcast? - bad tournaments will die by them selves when they can't attract audience and sponsors. I bet they are just afraid that exactly that is going to happen to them. Very generous of them to let people have their own tournaments in pc bangs etc. Really, very generous.
why does everyone feel so happy about these statements? I mean, yeah sure, they seem to be allowing proleague. But - did everybody just read over all the other bullshit they are pulling here? paying money (i don't care if its just 1won) to make like anything at all, what is this? This serves absolutely no purpose other than having a good way of forcing weird contracts onto just about anything and making everything way more complicated than it needs to be. To me this sounds like a 10 year old child making up some weird arbitrary set of rules for something just because it thinks they are cool, except that gretech doesnt do anything to be cool but to keep some amount of control over it. Thats just totally ridiculous and nothing to be happy about i think.
So - yea, hurray proleague. But a giant "wtf is this shit?" on all the rest.
Gretech's (and, by extension, Blizzard Entertainment's) intention to steal or smother the professional BW scene has been clear for months. Empty praise for E-SPORTS is empty.
On October 16 2010 20:18 SkelA wrote: Gom is saying " We will leave Proleague to run but OSL and MSL is out of the question "
Or its just the MSL who will be axed ??
They couldn't stop proleague from going ahead so I doubt they can stop OSL or MSL if OGN/MBC choose to ignore them. OSL is likely to happen but MSL is doubtful. My guess is that MSL has a problem with getting a sponsor.
On October 16 2010 19:08 Elroi wrote: Besides, how does letting only "serious broadcasters" (ie the ones that can pay money to Gretech) broadcast SC leagues strengthen the e-sports scene? I mean minorleague, zotac etc etc didn't exactly damage the BW scene... If they can't have their league because the competition is to strong, it's best for e-sports if they die. Hypocrites.
you didnt understand that part EVERYONE can make a tournament basically for free (1 won which is under 0,01€) while you have to pay 100 million won (about 90 000$) to broadcast a tournament on tv. this is to allow amateur tournaments for everyone (pc band owners or something like that), but at the same time having a hurdle that has to be taken to show that your professional enough to create a decent broadcasted tournament.
That's what I meant, with these rules tournaments like Zotac (atleast how it was organized in BW) and minorleague won't happen. Why don't let anyone broadcast? - bad tournaments will die by them selves when they can't attract audience and sponsors. I bet they are just afraid that exactly that is going to happen to them. Very generous of them to let people have their own tournaments in pc bangs etc. Really, very generous.
hm? zotac and minor league arent broadcasted on tv, so they only have to pay 1 won
I'm kinda confused, this seemed more like damage control to me than them giving their go ahead to the proleague. If anything the whole 'the money we receive will go to a scholarship ect" seems like they're trying to prempt the negative press they're going to get from trying to shut down the proleague.
Maybe I misread it, but I seem to be taking away something totally different from this than 90% of the people in the thread.
On October 16 2010 21:10 kataa wrote: I'm kinda confused, this seemed more like damage control to me than them giving their go ahead to the proleague. If anything the whole 'the money we receive will go to a scholarship ect" seems like they're trying to prempt the negative press they're going to get from trying to shut down the proleague.
Maybe I misread it, but I seem to be taking away something totally different from this than 90% of the people in the thread.
Yeah, I don't buy what's in the statement. Sounds like they just made up a bunch of excuses. But they're going to have to go to court if they want to shut down proleague. That's going to take awhile.
Best thing for eSports is to completely leave kespa alone and not start this shit in the first place if they really had that in mind. Nothing they've done is of benefit to esports.
On October 16 2010 21:10 kataa wrote: I'm kinda confused, this seemed more like damage control to me than them giving their go ahead to the proleague. If anything the whole 'the money we receive will go to a scholarship ect" seems like they're trying to prempt the negative press they're going to get from trying to shut down the proleague.
Maybe I misread it, but I seem to be taking away something totally different from this than 90% of the people in the thread.
If they shut down proleague, then they will look bad no matter what their stance is.
Sure, they might have the IP rights to shut down proleague. Will it be justified? That I don't know. Will people like it? No.
1. There seems to be an assumption that many people here have that GOMtv will always hold the rights to distribute tournament licenses. For this reason they have to act in a way that is aligned with the wants of Blizzard to ensure this stays in good relation in the future time. Blizzard has repeatedly stated that they want the IP honored in one form or another. So moving forward with the intent to build IP acknowledgement as a precedent is the most important point to be made right now. So far this seems to still be their strategy.
2. This isn't about gaining short-term gains, it's about creating the mentality that's required to profit on it. At this time if you get an entire population to think "I have to pay for what once was free". Only after that public acceptance is set can you truly profit on it. You need a precedent set first.
3. The tournament fees for 1 dollar and broadcasting fee for higher amounts is because there are more StarCraft tournaments in Korean than just those you see online. Be it in PCbangs, at public places, amateur leagues, etc, I'm sure there is a plethora of people who feel relieved that they can still continue their personal tournaments for the mere cost of 1 won. This is also part of the community that they're probably catering to. This would be in order to set a precedent and build up the mentality of "if I want to do a tournament, I will need to pay the licensee".
4. Next, of all the terms it's obvious the payment plan is not what the concern was regarding the negociations, it's the fact that the co-licensee (Gretech) would have access to all the funding and control of the logo placement, etc and would have to turn around and give it to the tournament funder. Note how Gretech specifically states "we would not abuse it"... which shows it has the potential for abuse, even if it never happened. At this point I don't believe it's a case of IP rights at the root, but concern about every dime of the sponsor money being "funneled through" Gretech, even if they keep their honor regarding it and never abuse this ability.
All this, of course, is my personal speculation. But I figured my thoughts (be them right or wrong) would help steer the direction of this conversation, please requote if you appreciated it, even if refuting my thoughts cause I'm curious about all sides.
On October 16 2010 22:02 supernovamaniac wrote: Sure, they might have the IP rights to shut down proleague. Will it be justified? That I don't know. Will people like it? No.
QFT. I wasn't worried so much about the death of the PL, as much as I was worried about the massive drama and controversy swirling around this. If they shut down PL, then they're essentially going to get exiled from SK
On October 16 2010 22:02 supernovamaniac wrote: Sure, they might have the IP rights to shut down proleague. Will it be justified? That I don't know. Will people like it? No.
QFT. I wasn't worried so much about the death of the PL, as much as I was worried about the massive drama and controversy swirling around this. If they shut down PL, then they're essentially going to get exiled from SK
If Gretech doesn't want to kill BW scene, then they will have to keep it going
Eventually, SC and SC2 will depend on each other. If BW scene gradually dies and fans move over to SC2, then it's a good thing. But if BW dies suddenly due to lawsuit, fans will take positions, BW fans will never move on, and bad publicity will kill both leagues.
Which one do you want? Competition but promising future, or no competition but no future?
I'm afraid but I have to say : there are few misunderstandings about this issue - Gretech is preparing legal actions and is appealing to the fans that it is inevitable, neccesary action.
- 스타크래프트는 공공재가 아닙니다. 이것은 블리자드가 시간과 자원 및 인력을 투자한 결과물이며, 곰TV는 한국에서의 블리자드 공인 파트너로서 국내 스타크래프트 리그가 합법적인 방식으로 지속되도록 국내 파트너와 계약을 진행하고자 많은 노력을 기울여 왔습니다.
Crude translation : Starcraft is NOT AN PUBLIC GOOD. It resulted from resources and manpowers that blizzard had invested, and GomTV, as the official partner of blizzard entertainment, has taken enourmous efforts to make contracts with the domestic partners, for that make it sure SC:BW leagues is legal.
곰TV는 최악의 상황을 피하기 위해 아직도 주어진 시간 내에 합의에 이를 수 있도록 최선의 노력을 기울이고 있습니다. 그러나 저희의 이러한 노력에도 불구하고 최악의 상황이 발생한다면, 앞으로 저희가 취할 수 밖에 없는 후속 조치에 대해 이해해주시기를 부탁 드립니다.
Crude translation : GomTV is doing its best efforts to achieve mutual agreements in the given time limit in order to avoid the worst scenario. But if, regardless of our efforts, the worst happens, please understand that we will be forced to take 'extra action'.
On October 16 2010 19:08 Elroi wrote: Besides, how does letting only "serious broadcasters" (ie the ones that can pay money to Gretech) broadcast SC leagues strengthen the e-sports scene? I mean minorleague, zotac etc etc didn't exactly damage the BW scene... If they can't have their league because the competition is to strong, it's best for e-sports if they die. Hypocrites.
you didnt understand that part EVERYONE can make a tournament basically for free (1 won which is under 0,01€) while you have to pay 100 million won (about 90 000$) to broadcast a tournament on tv. this is to allow amateur tournaments for everyone (pc band owners or something like that), but at the same time having a hurdle that has to be taken to show that your professional enough to create a decent broadcasted tournament.
That's what I meant, with these rules tournaments like Zotac (atleast how it was organized in BW) and minorleague won't happen. Why don't let anyone broadcast? - bad tournaments will die by them selves when they can't attract audience and sponsors. I bet they are just afraid that exactly that is going to happen to them. Very generous of them to let people have their own tournaments in pc bangs etc. Really, very generous.
hm? zotac and minor league arent broadcasted on tv, so they only have to pay 1 won
It sais broadcast in the article, not televised. I would say that the TSL was broadcast even though it wasn't on television. And I thought that minorleague actually was televised in Korea.
On October 16 2010 22:26 Enigmatics wrote: It is quite obvious that there will be lawsuits with application for an injunction stopping the Starleague from being broadcast
Right, it's so annoying people acting like gomtv are total nice guys and Kespa are evil villians. Gomtv are playing hardball and will shut down the proleague completely if they don't get what they want. The rest is corporate spin and shouldn't be taken at face value.
Man now i'll sound like i'm bandwagoning the obvious by saying that the people in this thread who took this as some kind of indication that Proleague has been given the OK are going to be very disappointed. There's really nothing even in the original post's translation that implies anything along those lines.
GomTV stated, 'Each tournaments will cost 1 won (ed. That's not a mistranslation, it really said 1 won), and broadcasting fee is 100 million won'.
Wait, How much is one won again? ITs probably about a penny I guess. Well, Kespa and Gom can now stop being douchebags to each other. Everyone's content now.
On October 16 2010 19:08 Elroi wrote: Besides, how does letting only "serious broadcasters" (ie the ones that can pay money to Gretech) broadcast SC leagues strengthen the e-sports scene? I mean minorleague, zotac etc etc didn't exactly damage the BW scene... If they can't have their league because the competition is to strong, it's best for e-sports if they die. Hypocrites.
you didnt understand that part EVERYONE can make a tournament basically for free (1 won which is under 0,01€) while you have to pay 100 million won (about 90 000$) to broadcast a tournament on tv. this is to allow amateur tournaments for everyone (pc band owners or something like that), but at the same time having a hurdle that has to be taken to show that your professional enough to create a decent broadcasted tournament.
That's what I meant, with these rules tournaments like Zotac (atleast how it was organized in BW) and minorleague won't happen. Why don't let anyone broadcast? - bad tournaments will die by them selves when they can't attract audience and sponsors. I bet they are just afraid that exactly that is going to happen to them. Very generous of them to let people have their own tournaments in pc bangs etc. Really, very generous.
hm? zotac and minor league arent broadcasted on tv, so they only have to pay 1 won
It sais broadcast in the article, not televised. I would say that the TSL was broadcast even though it wasn't on television. And I thought that minorleague actually was televised in Korea.
OGN and MBC seem to have that 100 mio Won broadcast license, so they can broadcast as much Starcraft as they want (or is it only Proleague?). I'm undecided, if this all sounds better or worse than how it was before. What I do remember is, I wanted to watch some more GomTV Classic Seasons with Tasteless casting, but KeSPA locked up their players.
Other than that, don't forget that this business is only in South Korea. Rest of the world is managed by Blizzard themselves (that's regarding your TSL argument). About minor league: there was something about KeSPA teams firing all their B-teamers?
On October 16 2010 19:08 Elroi wrote: Besides, how does letting only "serious broadcasters" (ie the ones that can pay money to Gretech) broadcast SC leagues strengthen the e-sports scene? I mean minorleague, zotac etc etc didn't exactly damage the BW scene... If they can't have their league because the competition is to strong, it's best for e-sports if they die. Hypocrites.
you didnt understand that part EVERYONE can make a tournament basically for free (1 won which is under 0,01€) while you have to pay 100 million won (about 90 000$) to broadcast a tournament on tv. this is to allow amateur tournaments for everyone (pc band owners or something like that), but at the same time having a hurdle that has to be taken to show that your professional enough to create a decent broadcasted tournament.
That's what I meant, with these rules tournaments like Zotac (atleast how it was organized in BW) and minorleague won't happen. Why don't let anyone broadcast? - bad tournaments will die by them selves when they can't attract audience and sponsors. I bet they are just afraid that exactly that is going to happen to them. Very generous of them to let people have their own tournaments in pc bangs etc. Really, very generous.
hm? zotac and minor league arent broadcasted on tv, so they only have to pay 1 won
It sais broadcast in the article, not televised. I would say that the TSL was broadcast even though it wasn't on television. And I thought that minorleague actually was televised in Korea.
the TSL doesnt matter because its not in korea
as far as i know dream league (name of minor league got changed i think) wasnt broadcasted
Of course this doen't mean that everything is fine. But atleast I take it as a very positive article: apparently Gretech can't/doesn't dare take on KeSPA in a court (about Proleague) - which they said they would. Maybe they are also just bluffing with their attempts to kill the starleagues.
On October 16 2010 19:08 Elroi wrote: Besides, how does letting only "serious broadcasters" (ie the ones that can pay money to Gretech) broadcast SC leagues strengthen the e-sports scene? I mean minorleague, zotac etc etc didn't exactly damage the BW scene... If they can't have their league because the competition is to strong, it's best for e-sports if they die. Hypocrites.
you didnt understand that part EVERYONE can make a tournament basically for free (1 won which is under 0,01€) while you have to pay 100 million won (about 90 000$) to broadcast a tournament on tv. this is to allow amateur tournaments for everyone (pc band owners or something like that), but at the same time having a hurdle that has to be taken to show that your professional enough to create a decent broadcasted tournament.
That's what I meant, with these rules tournaments like Zotac (atleast how it was organized in BW) and minorleague won't happen. Why don't let anyone broadcast? - bad tournaments will die by them selves when they can't attract audience and sponsors. I bet they are just afraid that exactly that is going to happen to them. Very generous of them to let people have their own tournaments in pc bangs etc. Really, very generous.
hm? zotac and minor league arent broadcasted on tv, so they only have to pay 1 won
It sais broadcast in the article, not televised. I would say that the TSL was broadcast even though it wasn't on television. And I thought that minorleague actually was televised in Korea.
OGN and MBC seem to have that 100 mio Won broadcast license, so they can broadcast as much Starcraft as they want (or is it only Proleague?). I'm undecided, if this all sounds better or worse than how it was before. What I do remember is, I wanted to watch some more GomTV Classic Seasons with Tasteless casting, but KeSPA locked up their players.
Other than that, don't forget that this business is only in South Korea. Rest of the world is managed by Blizzard themselves (that's regarding your TSL argument). About minor league: there was something about KeSPA teams firing all their B-teamers?
Does Gretech only have the IP rights for SK? Well, anyway nothing stops Blizzard or whatever company they use as a decoy to terrorise the foreigner scene as much as Gretech does it in Korea.
On October 16 2010 16:53 Ancestral wrote: Blizzard should never have negotiated with Gretech in the first place, they're idiots. This sounds like a step in the right direction but the problem is Gretech has exclusive rights anyway, which is a total absurdity.
Blizzard wanted to negotiate with KeSPA first. KeSPA said "lolno".
More like blizzard wanted to enslave KeSPA but had no luck doing so.
(I know that post is couple pages old, but still had to respond...)
At this point I can't see why Gretech and KeSPA don't just have open negotiations. They both claim to have the best intentions yet are completely unable to reach an agreement. Either one or both sides are talking out their ass or they should be able to reach an agreement relatively easily.
As I see it, KeSPA already offered the 300 million WON (if that information was correct) and all Gretech wants is for them to acknowledge that Blizzard and Gretech has the IP rights and perhaps apologize for planning and starting Proleague without reaching an agreement and everything should be fine and dandy.
I say: live television broadcast of the two parties negotiating. Then we'll really know if all parties have the best intentions. I really, really wish that I could enjoy both SC:BW and SC2 in the future. The new attention that SC2 and GSL is bringing to eSports could even attract more viewers and help up the prize pool for SC:BW to match that of the GSL slightly better. Oh and maybe OGN and MBC might start an official payed live stream for all of us who wish to show our support for eSports becoming as legitimate a passtime as football or soccer.
On October 16 2010 23:25 Novac wrote: At this point I can't see why Gretech and KeSPA don't just have open negotiations. They both claim to have the best intentions yet are completely unable to reach an agreement. Either one or both sides are talking out their ass or they should be able to reach an agreement relatively easily.
It could have something to do with the intended outrageousness of one party's demands.
If PL, OSL, and MSL are good to go, I'm happy then. After all the bad rep that Gretech has been getting, I'm surprised they still want to struggle with Kespa.
On October 16 2010 21:44 infinity2k9 wrote: Best thing for eSports is to completely leave kespa alone and not start this shit in the first place if they really had that in mind. Nothing they've done is of benefit to esports.
Yeah, everybody was a little worried about whether SC2 would take a share of BW's popularity, but I don't think any of us foresaw Blizzard/Gretech actively working to do everything they can to destroy BW.
Even if Gretech was to drop all this shit right now, I imagine a lot of damage has been done. The speculation has really cast doubt whether BW will survive in the immediate future, and probably has been a contributing factor in the demise of eSTRO, CJ, and maybe MBC teams. If the sponsors think BW's death is imminent, they won't invest, and so the whole system is coming apart even if Gretech never follows through with litigation.
I don't like Kespa, but Blizzard/Gretech have pissed me off a lot more.
On October 17 2010 00:17 XsebT wrote: I've never been this happy about an anti-climax.
There are some parts not translated in the original post:
On October 16 2010 22:17 Enigmatics wrote: I'm afraid but I have to say : there are few misunderstandings about this issue - Gretech is preparing legal actions and is appealing to the fans that it is inevitable, neccesary action.
- 스타크래프트는 공공재가 아닙니다. 이것은 블리자드가 시간과 자원 및 인력을 투자한 결과물이며, 곰TV는 한국에서의 블리자드 공인 파트너로서 국내 스타크래프트 리그가 합법적인 방식으로 지속되도록 국내 파트너와 계약을 진행하고자 많은 노력을 기울여 왔습니다.
Crude translation : Starcraft is NOT AN PUBLIC GOOD. It resulted from resources and manpowers that blizzard had invested, and GomTV, as the official partner of blizzard entertainment, has taken enourmous efforts to make contracts with the domestic partners, for that make it sure SC:BW leagues is legal.
곰TV는 최악의 상황을 피하기 위해 아직도 주어진 시간 내에 합의에 이를 수 있도록 최선의 노력을 기울이고 있습니다. 그러나 저희의 이러한 노력에도 불구하고 최악의 상황이 발생한다면, 앞으로 저희가 취할 수 밖에 없는 후속 조치에 대해 이해해주시기를 부탁 드립니다.
Crude translation : GomTV is doing its best efforts to achieve mutual agreements in the given time limit in order to avoid the worst scenario. But if, regardless of our efforts, the worst happens, please understand that we will be forced to take 'extra action'.
ogn should be combined to one...then mbc can broadcast under name of ogn2 lol also that 100million won...is that for each tourney or for a period of time...?
On October 16 2010 22:02 supernovamaniac wrote: If they shut down proleague, then they will look bad no matter what their stance is.
Sure, they might have the IP rights to shut down proleague. Will it be justified? That I don't know. Will people like it? No.
Looking really bad has never stopped a corperation from doing damage control before. In the end the courts will decide if it's 'justified'. The fact that damage control wont work, somehow doesn't quash my suspision that it's what they're attempting
It seems like KeSPA's notion that Gretech's original demands (as rumored and reported, at least) wouldn't sit well with the fans. There's more going on here, of course, but Gretech has wisely toned down their rhetoric here, at least. Well done to them, for once.
EDIT: Or maybe their sabre-rattling just wasn't translated?
On October 17 2010 01:04 The6357 wrote: ogn should be combined to one...then mbc can broadcast under name of ogn2 lol also that 100million won...is that for each tourney or for a period of time...?
MBC as a whole is much larger than OGN, so it's not gonna happen.
On October 16 2010 19:08 Elroi wrote: Besides, how does letting only "serious broadcasters" (ie the ones that can pay money to Gretech) broadcast SC leagues strengthen the e-sports scene? I mean minorleague, zotac etc etc didn't exactly damage the BW scene... If they can't have their league because the competition is to strong, it's best for e-sports if they die. Hypocrites.
you didnt understand that part EVERYONE can make a tournament basically for free (1 won which is under 0,01€) while you have to pay 100 million won (about 90 000$) to broadcast a tournament on tv. this is to allow amateur tournaments for everyone (pc band owners or something like that), but at the same time having a hurdle that has to be taken to show that your professional enough to create a decent broadcasted tournament.
That's what I meant, with these rules tournaments like Zotac (atleast how it was organized in BW) and minorleague won't happen. Why don't let anyone broadcast? - bad tournaments will die by them selves when they can't attract audience and sponsors. I bet they are just afraid that exactly that is going to happen to them. Very generous of them to let people have their own tournaments in pc bangs etc. Really, very generous.
I am pretty sure that they mean Television Broadcasts. If you take a look at the Blizzard Tournament submission form they want to know if the tournament is going to be broadcast and explicitly states that this mean Television Broadcast and not Internet Stream.
On October 17 2010 01:10 tree.hugger wrote: It seems like KeSPA's notion that Gretech's original demands (as rumored and reported, at least) wouldn't sit well with the fans. There's more going on here, of course, but Gretech has wisely toned down their rhetoric here, at least. Well done to them, for once.
EDIT: Or maybe their sabre-rattling just wasn't translated?
I'm pretty sure that:
"We are trying to say that license is needed to broadcast games, and acknowledge that Blizzard owns IP rights to all Blizzard games." = "Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan."
and
"GomTV is not looking to take just the money from Korea e-sports scene through the license. It's to protect the IP rights, which is a very important right for the content businesses, as well as their right to keep it." = "4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos."
Also "The goal is to further increase the size of e-sports, as well as to make it more active through our involvement. To do this, it is important to create a strong relations with the players, teams, other broadcasting stations, and other partners, not just GomTV's own tournaments." might suggest they're still going to try to enforce contracts with progamers that'll override the contracts with their actual sponsors.
I wish more people would read all the posts involved in these threads before diving in to post their own wild, unbridled accusations or opinions. As pointed out in the previous thread about KeSPA and Gretech ceasing negotiations, that whole ordeal was untrue. It was a false report. Gretech and KeSPA have been in unbroken negotiations for quite some time. Proleague has started without Gretech complaining and KeSPA appears to be understanding in terms of IP rights. The "fight" reported between the Korean government and Blizzard is still just a rumor gathered from a deleted blog. KeSPA is having just as much, if not more, trouble from coming under fire from angry fans in Korea, if their internet commenters are anything to go by.
If you'd just go back and read through everything from the get go, most of you would probably post less angrily and more relieved. Drop your hatred for whichever party you don't like, because it's probably not as founded as you think.
On October 16 2010 15:15 Selith wrote: First is the fees. GomTV stated, 'Each tournaments will cost 1 won (ed. That's not a mistranslation, it really said 1 won), and broadcasting fee is 100 million won'. The reason for the broadcasting fee is to have only the corporations who are capable planning a high-quality e-sports tournaments, broadcasting, and provide high-quality broadcast for the players and the viewers.
A jab at MBC's incompetence?
Ironic that GomTV would mention high-quality broadcasting considering their problematic streams during GSL1.
On October 16 2010 15:15 Selith wrote: First is the fees. GomTV stated, 'Each tournaments will cost 1 won (ed. That's not a mistranslation, it really said 1 won), and broadcasting fee is 100 million won'. The reason for the broadcasting fee is to have only the corporations who are capable planning a high-quality e-sports tournaments, broadcasting, and provide high-quality broadcast for the players and the viewers.
A jab at MBC's incompetence?
Ironic that GomTV would mention high-quality broadcasting considering their problematic streams during GSL1.
Lol, overseas streams are not what they're talking about. Who cares about streams in Korea? It's about television broadcasting which GOM has never had a problem with
On October 17 2010 02:37 Risen wrote: 100 million won is is around 90000 dollars atm... isn't that a little steep for broadcasting rights? Or am I off on this
90000 for the right to broadcast tournaments for a whole year? thats not much considering your ad revenue is much much greater. Kespa charged more.
They are basically saying "Oh look at our reasonable conditions, if Kespa don't accept its their fault not ours"
Obviously there are some hidden terms involved, otherwise Kespa would of accepted already. I would say the hidden stuff are in the terms and conditions involved with using the license. Things like Blizzard or Gretech can terminate the license anytime or they are susceptible auditing would be part of the license usage agreement.
On October 17 2010 02:37 Risen wrote: 100 million won is is around 90000 dollars atm... isn't that a little steep for broadcasting rights? Or am I off on this
Considering KeSPA charged MBC and OGN 1500 million KRW, or about 1.3515 million USD, for broadcasting rights....?
On October 17 2010 02:37 Risen wrote: 100 million won is is around 90000 dollars atm... isn't that a little steep for broadcasting rights? Or am I off on this
Considering KeSPA charged MBC and OGN 1500 million KRW, or about 1.3515 million USD, for broadcasting rights....?
The difference is a lot, but does this mean that KeSPA won't have any money? Since it took that much to sustain themselves...?
On October 16 2010 23:45 Chimpalimp wrote: If PL, OSL, and MSL are good to go, I'm happy then. After all the bad rep that Gretech has been getting, I'm surprised they still want to struggle with Kespa.
Supposedly, the situation is completely reversed in South Korea. While TL blames Gretech, South Koreans blame Kespa. I'm pretty sure they care more about what locals think than what TL thinks.
On October 16 2010 23:45 Chimpalimp wrote: If PL, OSL, and MSL are good to go, I'm happy then. After all the bad rep that Gretech has been getting, I'm surprised they still want to struggle with Kespa.
Supposedly, the situation is completely reversed in South Korea. While TL blames Gretech, South Koreans blame Kespa. I'm pretty sure they care more about what locals think than what TL thinks.
How do you get the idea that Koreans blame KeSPA, instead of Blizzard/GreTech?
On October 16 2010 23:45 Chimpalimp wrote: If PL, OSL, and MSL are good to go, I'm happy then. After all the bad rep that Gretech has been getting, I'm surprised they still want to struggle with Kespa.
Supposedly, the situation is completely reversed in South Korea. While TL blames Gretech, South Koreans blame Kespa. I'm pretty sure they care more about what locals think than what TL thinks.
How do you get the idea that Koreans blame KeSPA, instead of Blizzard/GreTech?
The comments on Korean news articles are not flattering for KeSPA, to be sure. It's not hard to find remarks calling KeSPA "gesupa" (like calling someone a dog) and berating them for their actions on source articles.
On October 16 2010 23:45 Chimpalimp wrote: If PL, OSL, and MSL are good to go, I'm happy then. After all the bad rep that Gretech has been getting, I'm surprised they still want to struggle with Kespa.
Supposedly, the situation is completely reversed in South Korea. While TL blames Gretech, South Koreans blame Kespa. I'm pretty sure they care more about what locals think than what TL thinks.
How do you get the idea that Koreans blame KeSPA, instead of Blizzard/GreTech?
Yeah it's all over korean netizen comments, Junkka's shock at TL siding with Kespa, the kespa commentators blogs being so apologetic and telling people to have faith in them. everything points to korea -> with gretech, Foreigners -> with kespa.
It's because Koreans are very well aware of everything KeSPA has done since SK took it over. This is not the first time BW e-sports scene almost got shut down in Korea.
On October 17 2010 02:37 Risen wrote: 100 million won is is around 90000 dollars atm... isn't that a little steep for broadcasting rights? Or am I off on this
Considering KeSPA charged MBC and OGN 1500 million KRW, or about 1.3515 million USD, for broadcasting rights....?
The difference is a lot, but does this mean that KeSPA won't have any money? Since it took that much to sustain themselves...?
Hardly, $90k is just a tiny fee to weed out people unable to pay that much.
On October 17 2010 03:42 Selith wrote: It's because Koreans are very well aware of everything KeSPA has done since SK took it over. This is not the first time BW e-sports scene almost got shut down in Korea.
More like Koreans have been spoiled for years. Foreigners wish they had such an "evil" organisation take care of esports in their countries.
On October 17 2010 03:42 Selith wrote: It's because Koreans are very well aware of everything KeSPA has done since SK took it over. This is not the first time BW e-sports scene almost got shut down in Korea.
More like Koreans have been spoiled for years. Foreigners wish they had such an "evil" organisation take care of esports in their countries.
On October 17 2010 03:42 Selith wrote: It's because Koreans are very well aware of everything KeSPA has done since SK took it over. This is not the first time BW e-sports scene almost got shut down in Korea.
More like Koreans have been spoiled for years. Foreigners wish they had such an "evil" organisation take care of esports in their countries.
How can you judge that Koreans don't 'know what they are talking about?' I'm really not sure where this comment is coming from, other than a display of personal bias against people who dislike KeSPA for whatever reason.
If South Koreans, a population that has the most direct contact with the organizations involved, that does not have to deal with a language barrier for press releases, and is directly impacted by the eSports industry trends are just 'spoiled' (with the implied 'don't know what they are talking about) and don't have a right to judge, who does?
For sure, opinions are quite hostile toward kespa. Almost everybody knows what has been there between kespa and blizzard and what kespa has done - they can't side with kespa knowing that they are taking money they do not deserve and kespa utilized its registered players and contracted broadcasters in purpose of making SC:BW progaming leagues a monopolized cashcow.
There are some guys criticizing Gretech too, worried about they're gonna shutdown entire BW gaming ground, and believes that they will ruin the entire e-sports to nothing more than an marketing field, but usually these kinds of comments are overwhelmed by others bashing kespa for its irrational-illegal manners.
There are still debates, but usually it is considered that Gretech's intentions are more of an IP rights they got from blizzard, not of SC2 vs BW cannibalization. Gretech would allow any SC:BW proleagues unconditionally while the host of tournament respects that primary rights are own by Blizzard entertainment and Gretech. (so they will not allow kespa to SELL broadcasting rights of tournament games to stations - they want to make the point clear that those rights do not belong to them)
Kespa still wants to be the boss in this game - they want it unchanged, they want to take money from broadcasters by selling 'broadcasting rights'. Although the played contents of tournament games are those of who created it - host and players - but only secondary rights, because it was created by STARCRAFT, WHICH IS PROPERTY OF BLIZZARD - if they don't respect primary IP rights, their rights are to be denied.
Kespa offered that 300,000,000 won - but in condition of keeping broadcasters still pay to them for broadcasting rights. and unlike Ongamenet, Mgame failed to make contract with Gretech - so Gretech wanted to exclude Mgame from broadcasters. Kespa disagreed and insisted on two-station-system. While they are still negotiating, Kespa forcefully pushed on with Starleague in their favor... Gretech got upset, and published a writing about current stance - (which can be read on OP)
On October 17 2010 03:42 Selith wrote: It's because Koreans are very well aware of everything KeSPA has done since SK took it over. This is not the first time BW e-sports scene almost got shut down in Korea.
More like Koreans have been spoiled for years. Foreigners wish they had such an "evil" organisation take care of esports in their countries.
How can you judge that Koreans don't 'know what they are talking about?' I'm really not sure where this comment is coming from, other than a display of personal bias against people who dislike KeSPA for whatever reason.
If South Koreans, a population that has the most direct contact with the organizations involved, that does not have to deal with a language barrier for press releases, and is directly impacted by the eSports industry trends are just 'spoiled' (with the implied 'don't know what they are talking about) and don't have a right to judge, who does?
People confuse me. --;;
I'm not judging anyone. I'm stating a fact - Koreans have been used to (i.e. spoiled) having a progaming scene for a decade, esport being around is a natural state of things to them, that it's a part of their culture. It's easy for them to complain about KeSPA and their wrong doing (those are valid reasons). They don't give KeSPA enough credit for what it has done. They never stop and think how much more developed Korean esports scene is thanks to KeSPA compared to other countries.
On October 17 2010 03:42 Selith wrote: It's because Koreans are very well aware of everything KeSPA has done since SK took it over. This is not the first time BW e-sports scene almost got shut down in Korea.
More like Koreans have been spoiled for years. Foreigners wish they had such an "evil" organisation take care of esports in their countries.
How can you judge that Koreans don't 'know what they are talking about?' I'm really not sure where this comment is coming from, other than a display of personal bias against people who dislike KeSPA for whatever reason.
If South Koreans, a population that has the most direct contact with the organizations involved, that does not have to deal with a language barrier for press releases, and is directly impacted by the eSports industry trends are just 'spoiled' (with the implied 'don't know what they are talking about) and don't have a right to judge, who does?
People confuse me. --;;
I'm not judging anyone. I'm stating a fact - Koreans have been used to (i.e. spoiled) having a progaming scene for a decade, esport being around is a natural state of things to them, that it's a part of their culture. It's easy for them to complain about KeSPA and their wrong doing (those are valid reasons). They don't give KeSPA enough credit for what it has done. They never stop and think how much more developed Korean esports scene is thanks to KeSPA compared to other countries.
And we can go over what KeSPA has done again and again. Koreans knows what KeSPA has done best, don't they?
On October 17 2010 03:42 Selith wrote: It's because Koreans are very well aware of everything KeSPA has done since SK took it over. This is not the first time BW e-sports scene almost got shut down in Korea.
More like Koreans have been spoiled for years. Foreigners wish they had such an "evil" organisation take care of esports in their countries.
How can you judge that Koreans don't 'know what they are talking about?' I'm really not sure where this comment is coming from, other than a display of personal bias against people who dislike KeSPA for whatever reason.
If South Koreans, a population that has the most direct contact with the organizations involved, that does not have to deal with a language barrier for press releases, and is directly impacted by the eSports industry trends are just 'spoiled' (with the implied 'don't know what they are talking about) and don't have a right to judge, who does?
People confuse me. --;;
I'm not judging anyone. I'm stating a fact - Koreans have been used to (i.e. spoiled) having a progaming scene for a decade, esport being around is a natural state of things to them, that it's a part of their culture. It's easy for them to complain about KeSPA and their wrong doing (those are valid reasons). They don't give KeSPA enough credit for what it has done. They never stop and think how much more developed Korean esports scene is thanks to KeSPA compared to other countries.
And we can go over what KeSPA has done again and again. Koreans knows what KeSPA has done best, don't they?
They do, and then they take it for granted, and then they start complaining.
On October 17 2010 03:42 Selith wrote: It's because Koreans are very well aware of everything KeSPA has done since SK took it over. This is not the first time BW e-sports scene almost got shut down in Korea.
More like Koreans have been spoiled for years. Foreigners wish they had such an "evil" organisation take care of esports in their countries.
How can you judge that Koreans don't 'know what they are talking about?' I'm really not sure where this comment is coming from, other than a display of personal bias against people who dislike KeSPA for whatever reason.
If South Koreans, a population that has the most direct contact with the organizations involved, that does not have to deal with a language barrier for press releases, and is directly impacted by the eSports industry trends are just 'spoiled' (with the implied 'don't know what they are talking about) and don't have a right to judge, who does?
People confuse me. --;;
I'm not judging anyone. I'm stating a fact - Koreans have been used to (i.e. spoiled) having a progaming scene for a decade, esport being around is a natural state of things to them, that it's a part of their culture. It's easy for them to complain about KeSPA and their wrong doing (those are valid reasons). They don't give KeSPA enough credit for what it has done. They never stop and think how much more developed Korean esports scene is thanks to KeSPA compared to other countries.
And we can go over what KeSPA has done again and again. Koreans knows what KeSPA has done best, don't they?
They do, and then they take it for granted, and then they start complaining.
I agree with you because I know what it's like to have no official organisation/infrastructure for e-sports whatsoever.
On October 17 2010 03:42 Selith wrote: It's because Koreans are very well aware of everything KeSPA has done since SK took it over. This is not the first time BW e-sports scene almost got shut down in Korea.
More like Koreans have been spoiled for years. Foreigners wish they had such an "evil" organisation take care of esports in their countries.
How can you judge that Koreans don't 'know what they are talking about?' I'm really not sure where this comment is coming from, other than a display of personal bias against people who dislike KeSPA for whatever reason.
If South Koreans, a population that has the most direct contact with the organizations involved, that does not have to deal with a language barrier for press releases, and is directly impacted by the eSports industry trends are just 'spoiled' (with the implied 'don't know what they are talking about) and don't have a right to judge, who does?
People confuse me. --;;
I'm not judging anyone. I'm stating a fact - Koreans have been used to (i.e. spoiled) having a progaming scene for a decade, esport being around is a natural state of things to them, that it's a part of their culture. It's easy for them to complain about KeSPA and their wrong doing (those are valid reasons). They don't give KeSPA enough credit for what it has done. They never stop and think how much more developed Korean esports scene is thanks to KeSPA compared to other countries.
It's more developed compared to other countries, because in Korea somehow event halls get filled by fans and gamers have fangirls. KeSPA came after that.
On October 17 2010 03:42 Selith wrote: It's because Koreans are very well aware of everything KeSPA has done since SK took it over. This is not the first time BW e-sports scene almost got shut down in Korea.
More like Koreans have been spoiled for years. Foreigners wish they had such an "evil" organisation take care of esports in their countries.
How can you judge that Koreans don't 'know what they are talking about?' I'm really not sure where this comment is coming from, other than a display of personal bias against people who dislike KeSPA for whatever reason.
If South Koreans, a population that has the most direct contact with the organizations involved, that does not have to deal with a language barrier for press releases, and is directly impacted by the eSports industry trends are just 'spoiled' (with the implied 'don't know what they are talking about) and don't have a right to judge, who does?
People confuse me. --;;
I'm not judging anyone. I'm stating a fact - Koreans have been used to (i.e. spoiled) having a progaming scene for a decade, esport being around is a natural state of things to them, that it's a part of their culture. It's easy for them to complain about KeSPA and their wrong doing (those are valid reasons). They don't give KeSPA enough credit for what it has done. They never stop and think how much more developed Korean esports scene is thanks to KeSPA compared to other countries.
And we can go over what KeSPA has done again and again. Koreans knows what KeSPA has done best, don't they?
It's sort of like Stockholm syndrome. The kidnapee knows whats going on most because they were there but they might not necessarily form the right opinion. Just because they know what they've done doesn't necessarily make them the best people to criticize the organization.
On October 17 2010 03:42 Selith wrote: It's because Koreans are very well aware of everything KeSPA has done since SK took it over. This is not the first time BW e-sports scene almost got shut down in Korea.
More like Koreans have been spoiled for years. Foreigners wish they had such an "evil" organisation take care of esports in their countries.
How can you judge that Koreans don't 'know what they are talking about?' I'm really not sure where this comment is coming from, other than a display of personal bias against people who dislike KeSPA for whatever reason.
If South Koreans, a population that has the most direct contact with the organizations involved, that does not have to deal with a language barrier for press releases, and is directly impacted by the eSports industry trends are just 'spoiled' (with the implied 'don't know what they are talking about) and don't have a right to judge, who does?
People confuse me. --;;
I'm not judging anyone. I'm stating a fact - Koreans have been used to (i.e. spoiled) having a progaming scene for a decade, esport being around is a natural state of things to them, that it's a part of their culture. It's easy for them to complain about KeSPA and their wrong doing (those are valid reasons). They don't give KeSPA enough credit for what it has done. They never stop and think how much more developed Korean esports scene is thanks to KeSPA compared to other countries.
It's more developed compared to other countries, because in Korea somehow event halls get filled by fans and gamers have fangirls. KeSPA came after that.
On October 17 2010 03:42 Selith wrote: It's because Koreans are very well aware of everything KeSPA has done since SK took it over. This is not the first time BW e-sports scene almost got shut down in Korea.
More like Koreans have been spoiled for years. Foreigners wish they had such an "evil" organisation take care of esports in their countries.
How can you judge that Koreans don't 'know what they are talking about?' I'm really not sure where this comment is coming from, other than a display of personal bias against people who dislike KeSPA for whatever reason.
If South Koreans, a population that has the most direct contact with the organizations involved, that does not have to deal with a language barrier for press releases, and is directly impacted by the eSports industry trends are just 'spoiled' (with the implied 'don't know what they are talking about) and don't have a right to judge, who does?
People confuse me. --;;
I'm not judging anyone. I'm stating a fact - Koreans have been used to (i.e. spoiled) having a progaming scene for a decade, esport being around is a natural state of things to them, that it's a part of their culture. It's easy for them to complain about KeSPA and their wrong doing (those are valid reasons). They don't give KeSPA enough credit for what it has done. They never stop and think how much more developed Korean esports scene is thanks to KeSPA compared to other countries.
It's more developed compared to other countries, because in Korea somehow event halls get filled by fans and gamers have fangirls. KeSPA came after that.
Same for China, your point?
My point is, teams and sponsors and progamers and TV broadcasting of games all came before KeSPA. So a comparison of the progaming situation of for example Europe to a Korea without KeSPA, doesn't make sense.
On October 17 2010 03:42 Selith wrote: It's because Koreans are very well aware of everything KeSPA has done since SK took it over. This is not the first time BW e-sports scene almost got shut down in Korea.
More like Koreans have been spoiled for years. Foreigners wish they had such an "evil" organisation take care of esports in their countries.
How can you judge that Koreans don't 'know what they are talking about?' I'm really not sure where this comment is coming from, other than a display of personal bias against people who dislike KeSPA for whatever reason.
If South Koreans, a population that has the most direct contact with the organizations involved, that does not have to deal with a language barrier for press releases, and is directly impacted by the eSports industry trends are just 'spoiled' (with the implied 'don't know what they are talking about) and don't have a right to judge, who does?
People confuse me. --;;
I'm not judging anyone. I'm stating a fact - Koreans have been used to (i.e. spoiled) having a progaming scene for a decade, esport being around is a natural state of things to them, that it's a part of their culture. It's easy for them to complain about KeSPA and their wrong doing (those are valid reasons). They don't give KeSPA enough credit for what it has done. They never stop and think how much more developed Korean esports scene is thanks to KeSPA compared to other countries.
It's more developed compared to other countries, because in Korea somehow event halls get filled by fans and gamers have fangirls. KeSPA came after that.
Same for China, your point?
My point is, teams and sponsors and progamers and TV broadcasting of games all came before KeSPA. So a comparison of the progaming situation of for example Europe to a Korea without KeSPA, doesn't make sense.
Can't you read? ;o I compared it to China, not Europe... China has all of that, yet it's not even half as advanced in terms of esports. Explain that.
Also when people talk about KeSPA, that includes the time when those parties (mainly sponsors and TV broadcasters) weren't called "KeSPA" yet. The fact is that the companies that currently consitute KeSPA (as well as those that already left it for various reasons) have done a lot for esports in Korea. Doesn't matter if they were called "KeSPA" at that time. It's completely irrelevant...
On October 17 2010 03:42 Selith wrote: It's because Koreans are very well aware of everything KeSPA has done since SK took it over. This is not the first time BW e-sports scene almost got shut down in Korea.
More like Koreans have been spoiled for years. Foreigners wish they had such an "evil" organisation take care of esports in their countries.
How can you judge that Koreans don't 'know what they are talking about?' I'm really not sure where this comment is coming from, other than a display of personal bias against people who dislike KeSPA for whatever reason.
If South Koreans, a population that has the most direct contact with the organizations involved, that does not have to deal with a language barrier for press releases, and is directly impacted by the eSports industry trends are just 'spoiled' (with the implied 'don't know what they are talking about) and don't have a right to judge, who does?
People confuse me. --;;
I'm not judging anyone. I'm stating a fact - Koreans have been used to (i.e. spoiled) having a progaming scene for a decade, esport being around is a natural state of things to them, that it's a part of their culture. It's easy for them to complain about KeSPA and their wrong doing (those are valid reasons). They don't give KeSPA enough credit for what it has done. They never stop and think how much more developed Korean esports scene is thanks to KeSPA compared to other countries.
It's more developed compared to other countries, because in Korea somehow event halls get filled by fans and gamers have fangirls. KeSPA came after that.
That's not a valid point, China has much much more fans who will go to a big tournament than any country. But instead, Chinese e-sports scene is still semi-pro, like in Europe and US. The difference are KeSPA and government's support. KeSPA's contribution is huge.
Meh... my point still is, the difference between Korea and China is because one is Korea and the other is not Korea. So China has the same as Korea: Teams, Gamers, Fans, TV broadcasts though is still not "pro". Profiteers organized themselves in Korea. Who knows why this doesn't happen in China.
Just because Korea has an e-Sports scene that developed further than everyone else does not make Korean's "spoiled" for supporting the idea of protecting rights. Maybe you feel that KeSPA's existence should allow them to do whatever they want, but the Korean community who knows and has to deal with them a hell of a lot more than you do disagrees. I don't doubt that they know KeSPA has contributed to society, but that doesn't make them auto-immune to rules and public opinion. That kind of logic is flawed, ignorant and very scary.
On October 17 2010 08:34 Ropid wrote: Meh... my point still is, the difference between Korea and China is because one is Korea and the other is not Korea. So China has the same as Korea: Teams, Gamers, Fans, TV broadcasts though is still not "pro". Profiteers organized themselves in Korea. Who knows why this doesn't happen in China.
Exactly, profiteers organized themselves and formed KeSPA! That's what makes the difference between China and Korea - KeSPA.
On October 17 2010 08:39 xBillehx wrote: Just because Korea has an e-Sports scene that developed further than everyone else does not make Korean's "spoiled" for supporting the idea of protecting rights. Maybe you feel that KeSPA's existence should allow them to do whatever they want, but the Korean community who knows and has to deal with them a hell of a lot more than you do disagrees. I don't doubt that they know KeSPA has contributed to society, but that doesn't make them auto-immune to rules and public opinion. That kind of logic is flawed, ignorant and very scary.
No, I do not feel that KeSPA's ecistence allows them to do whatever they want. If you read my post, you'd know that. ;; I already said KeSPA has done a lot of bad things. But the fact is, the good they have done far outweighs their wrong doing. The reason why Koreans mostly side with Gretech is because they take whatever good KeSPA has done to the esports scene for granted, but at the same time they jump on a KeSPA hate bandwagon everytime they screw up.
I love how in this thread, people say "koreans like kespa and gretech is wrong" using korean opinion as justification and evidence, and then others come in and correct them, that koreans actually vastly oppose kespa, and then korean opinion is just dismissed since they no longer agree with the anti-gretech side.
On October 16 2010 15:15 Selith wrote: First is the fees. GomTV stated, 'Each tournaments will cost 1 won (ed. That's not a mistranslation, it really said 1 won), and broadcasting fee is 100 million won'.
What exactly does this mean? Would Korean Air OSL be considered a different "tournament" from Korean Air OSL2, or does it all fall under the OSL umbrella?
On October 17 2010 03:42 Selith wrote: It's because Koreans are very well aware of everything KeSPA has done since SK took it over. This is not the first time BW e-sports scene almost got shut down in Korea.
More like Koreans have been spoiled for years. Foreigners wish they had such an "evil" organisation take care of esports in their countries.
How can you judge that Koreans don't 'know what they are talking about?' I'm really not sure where this comment is coming from, other than a display of personal bias against people who dislike KeSPA for whatever reason.
If South Koreans, a population that has the most direct contact with the organizations involved, that does not have to deal with a language barrier for press releases, and is directly impacted by the eSports industry trends are just 'spoiled' (with the implied 'don't know what they are talking about) and don't have a right to judge, who does?
People confuse me. --;;
I'm not judging anyone. I'm stating a fact - Koreans have been used to (i.e. spoiled) having a progaming scene for a decade, esport being around is a natural state of things to them, that it's a part of their culture. It's easy for them to complain about KeSPA and their wrong doing (those are valid reasons). They don't give KeSPA enough credit for what it has done. They never stop and think how much more developed Korean esports scene is thanks to KeSPA compared to other countries.
And we can go over what KeSPA has done again and again. Koreans knows what KeSPA has done best, don't they?
It's sort of like Stockholm syndrome. The kidnapee knows whats going on most because they were there but they might not necessarily form the right opinion. Just because they know what they've done doesn't necessarily make them the best people to criticize the organization.
Really now... The victims here are the fans. They're not getting their BW and as BW fans, of course they're going to want BW back at any cost, even the easiest conservative way out will do. That's basically the foriegn community, as all they could do was watch from afar. KeSPA and Gretech are not really a part of their nation so why should they care for anything else than getting BW back.
And I'm just saying from the analogy that is brought up... The kidnapee are the BW fans. They can't form a good opinion toward everything that has happen, whereas a person from outside the scene will only view this situation in business terms. KeSPA broke the law, and this is the consequence of their actions.
On October 17 2010 03:42 Selith wrote: It's because Koreans are very well aware of everything KeSPA has done since SK took it over. This is not the first time BW e-sports scene almost got shut down in Korea.
More like Koreans have been spoiled for years. Foreigners wish they had such an "evil" organisation take care of esports in their countries.
How can you judge that Koreans don't 'know what they are talking about?' I'm really not sure where this comment is coming from, other than a display of personal bias against people who dislike KeSPA for whatever reason.
If South Koreans, a population that has the most direct contact with the organizations involved, that does not have to deal with a language barrier for press releases, and is directly impacted by the eSports industry trends are just 'spoiled' (with the implied 'don't know what they are talking about) and don't have a right to judge, who does?
People confuse me. --;;
I'm not judging anyone. I'm stating a fact - Koreans have been used to (i.e. spoiled) having a progaming scene for a decade, esport being around is a natural state of things to them, that it's a part of their culture. It's easy for them to complain about KeSPA and their wrong doing (those are valid reasons). They don't give KeSPA enough credit for what it has done. They never stop and think how much more developed Korean esports scene is thanks to KeSPA compared to other countries.
KeSPA has done good things in the past, but that doesn't give them the honorary ownership of the E-Sport scene. They should be judged on their current performance and trying to IMPROVE E-sports, otherwise a young and up and comer like Gretech will put it out of it's number 1 position. That's economics and game theory.
Monopolies are not good for ANYONE (except for KeSPA).
No, I do not feel that KeSPA's ecistence allows them to do whatever they want. If you read my post, you'd know that. ;; I already said KeSPA has done a lot of bad things. But the fact is, the good they have done far outweighs their wrong doing. The reason why Koreans mostly side with Gretech is because they take whatever good KeSPA has done to the esports scene for granted, but at the same time they jump on a KeSPA hate bandwagon everytime they screw up.
KeSPA did good when the original chairman (who was in the game biz before) was in power.
After SK took over (instituting a chairman that had no idea about the game biz), they almost killed BW proscene once because they wanted 1.7 trillion won from IEG, and 500 million won from both broadcasters each as broadcasting fee. They also said they reserved full rights to broadcasting and products made through it.
Right now, they are pushing for a law in which, it would give KeSPA full control over the intellectual property of games (whether it's foreign or domestic-made) that will be involved in e-sports.
Whatever good they did post-SK chairman does not make up for what they are doing.
this Gretech deal looks really bad. The 100 million Won is about $100k USD, which is not a problem.
the biggest problem is 50/50 ownership of produced content. this opens up a legal blackhole since neither party owns a majority. the arrangement also means Gretech as veto power over any matters over televised SC:BW matches and related products.
i think Gretech really failed at offering a sustainable eSport agreement. no one will partner with them unless their ability to veto is contractually limited.
KeSPA is E-Sports in Korea, don't be fooled by Gretech's lies. KeSPA has done well providing BW to their fans. If Gretech has any confidence in winning the lawsuit they've been flaunting all this time they would have sued KeSPA already. This statement clearly shows Gretech is bluffing, now trying to get KeSPA to sign the paper by backing up a few steps and offering "reasonable" conditions, and if KeSPA does sign it Gretech can easily deny us BW when the contract expires. KeSPA will have to force start PL again but the difference is that Gretech will have a case by saying KeSPA acknowledged IP rights before. For the future of BW, do not sign the soul of BW away KeSPA!
simply WOW @ KeSPA apologists. i realize you guys love bw (i do too) so you think you love kespa since they're associated with bw, but they aren't jesus like you seem to think.
1 sentence summary of this article: 1 won for the tournament, 100mil won for broadcasting fee was what Gretech offered, KeSPA reject this offer.
I see why KeSPA did not wanted to take Gretech's offer.
KeSPA used to charge broadcasters for broadcasting Proleague, which i believe is like 700mil won. If they take Gretech's offer, they won't make money like they used to since this offer will not grant total broadcasting right to KeSPA. That's why they offered 300mil to Gretech so they can have all the broadcasting right and make 700mil from each broadcasters.
Also, this article is not about Gretech getting pwned by KeSPA. Gretech already announced that they won't discuss with KeSPA anymore and will file lawsuit if KeSPA forced to open Proleague illegally. I believe that Gretech announced this to cover up before they stop Proleague forcibly.
If KeSPA really wanted to devote for the SC1 scene and SC1 fans, they should have made agreement with Blizzard in first hand. But, they kept denying IP right, making huge money off charging broadcasters for 10 years, even though they didn't even have a license, and try to cover up all these bs by announcing "SC1 is public good", which is not even true. This is why most of Korean SC fans, even SC1 fans, hate KeSPA; KeSPA wants to make money off SC1 and that's all.
P.S. I do not want the SC1 scene to die either. Don't misunderstand me. I just hate KeSPA being super idiot.
On October 17 2010 11:18 lakeness wrote: 1 sentence summary of this article: 1 won for the tournament, 100mil won for broadcasting fee was what Gretech offered, KeSPA reject this offer.
I see why KeSPA did not wanted to take Gretech's offer.
KeSPA used to charge broadcasters for broadcasting Proleague, which i believe is like 700mil won. If they take Gretech's offer, they won't make money like they used to since this offer will not grant total broadcasting right to KeSPA. That's why they offered 300mil to Gretech so they can have all the broadcasting right and make 700mil from each broadcasters.
Also, this article is not about Gretech getting pwned by KeSPA. Gretech already announced that they won't discuss with KeSPA anymore and will file lawsuit if KeSPA forced to open Proleague illegally. I believe that Gretech announced this to cover up before they stop Proleague forcibly.
If KeSPA really wanted to devote for the SC1 scene and SC1 fans, they should have made agreement with Blizzard in first hand. But, they kept denying IP right, making huge money off charging broadcasters for 10 years, even though they didn't even have a license, and try to cover up all these bs by announcing "SC1 is public good", which is not even true. This is why most of Korean SC fans, even SC1 fans, hate KeSPA; KeSPA wants to make money off SC1 and that's all.
P.S. I do not want the SC1 scene to die either. Don't misunderstand me. I just hate KeSPA being super idiot.
Even though people say KeSPA is violating the IP rights, I still don't believe the so called IP rights from GreTech. Why is KeSPA willing to pay something to broadcast, it is not to acknowledge the IP rights of GreTech, they are just trying to avoid the lawsuit.
Now negotiation is broken down, I hope this goes to court, then we can see how much is this IP right thing from Blizzard really worth. I believe it is not worth as much as Blizzard claimed to be.
On October 17 2010 11:18 lakeness wrote: 1 sentence summary of this article: 1 won for the tournament, 100mil won for broadcasting fee was what Gretech offered, KeSPA reject this offer.
I see why KeSPA did not wanted to take Gretech's offer.
KeSPA used to charge broadcasters for broadcasting Proleague, which i believe is like 700mil won. If they take Gretech's offer, they won't make money like they used to since this offer will not grant total broadcasting right to KeSPA. That's why they offered 300mil to Gretech so they can have all the broadcasting right and make 700mil from each broadcasters.
Also, this article is not about Gretech getting pwned by KeSPA. Gretech already announced that they won't discuss with KeSPA anymore and will file lawsuit if KeSPA forced to open Proleague illegally. I believe that Gretech announced this to cover up before they stop Proleague forcibly.
If KeSPA really wanted to devote for the SC1 scene and SC1 fans, they should have made agreement with Blizzard in first hand. But, they kept denying IP right, making huge money off charging broadcasters for 10 years, even though they didn't even have a license, and try to cover up all these bs by announcing "SC1 is public good", which is not even true. This is why most of Korean SC fans, even SC1 fans, hate KeSPA; KeSPA wants to make money off SC1 and that's all.
P.S. I do not want the SC1 scene to die either. Don't misunderstand me. I just hate KeSPA being super idiot.
Even though people say KeSPA is violating the IP rights, I still don't believe the so called IP rights from GreTech. Why is KeSPA willing to pay something to broadcast, it is not to acknowledge the IP rights of GreTech, they are just trying to avoid the lawsuit.
So I hope this goes to court, then we can see how much is this IP right thing from Blizzard really worth.
Since my English is really short, I don't know how to explain what I want to say in English. I agree with you that IP right does not come from Gretech, but Gretech is in charge of all the Blizzard product's broadcasting in Korea. KeSPA will have to gain sub-license from Gretech, since Blizzard won't listen to the bs from KeSPA.
KeSPA already said that they will not violate IP right, but they just want total broadcasting right so they can make money. Gretech was willing to make agreement with KeSPA when KeSPA actually agreed the IP right. They just fought about the broadcasting right for a month, and now KeSPA opened Proleague without making agreement.
Only thing I hope is that SC1 and SC2 both work out well, since I love both SC1 and SC2.
Is anyone as disturbed by the whole "IP rights" stance as I am? Should a movie that takes a shot of a Toyota(TM) car have to pay "IP rights" to Toyota? If I make a picture of my kids playing with Lego(TM) blocks, do I have to pay a fee to the Lego company if I want to post them online? Where is the line drawn?
I think gretech is making hasty allmost teen like accusations and actions towards negotiations. KeSPA has stated that they are willingly to pay for broadcasting rights many times, and gretech just keep spitting in their face and stall the negotiations. KeSPA not willing to stall the start of PR, and Gretech getting butthurt about it. This has evolved in situation that we now have in hand, propaganda and smoke screens of trying to get fans fight with each other and get the "Moral victory" before going in court.
Hopefully Korea makes gretech/blizzard lose badly in court so that justice, in my opinion is served. (Even if i slightly agree that KeSPA shoud not win it. [Actually make court drop both particapants from whole e-sport scene and install whole new organisation, no more toying with e-sports as this starts to evolve in fight that resembles my youthood with my sister and me fighting over a toy...])
If all Gretech wanted was the broadcasting fee, they would have finished up the negotiation long time ago. They want the IP rights recognized, and KeSPA will never accept that.
On October 17 2010 13:06 Selith wrote: If all Gretech wanted was the broadcasting fee, they would have finished up the negotiation long time ago. They want the IP rights recognized, and KeSPA will never accept that.
On October 17 2010 13:04 Jienny wrote: I think gretech is making hasty allmost teen like accusations and actions towards negotiations. KeSPA has stated that they are willingly to pay for broadcasting rights many times, and gretech just keep spitting in their face and stall the negotiations. KeSPA not willing to stall the start of PR, and Gretech getting butthurt about it. This has evolved in situation that we now have in hand, propaganda and smoke screens of trying to get fans fight with each other and get the "Moral victory" before going in court.
Hopefully Korea makes gretech/blizzard lose badly in court so that justice, in my opinion is served. (Even if i slightly agree that KeSPA shoud not win it. [Actually make court drop both particapants from whole e-sport scene and install whole new organisation, no more toying with e-sports as this starts to evolve in fight that resembles my youthood with my sister and me fighting over a toy...])
Seriously disagreed. KeSPA willingly to pay broadcasting rights? nope. What they offered is, "Give me your rights, I'll pay 1 mil, and I will sell these rights to broadcasting stations, as I have been doing before." By doing so KeSPA will sustain income that it had before. In short, It is no more than a "OK, OK, take this and get the f**k off, we're fine over here and don't bother us anymore"
They have been charging OGN/Mgame over 5~7mil / year. What KeSPA is afraid of is that losing that (illegal) income, by admitting that IP rights over starcraft progaming belongs to Blizzard and gretech.
Hosting tournaments? KeSPA does nothing. Playing actual rounds? KeSPA does nothing. Broadcasting over TV/Internet? KeSPA does nothing.
But you have to pay KeSPA if you want to host/broadcast SC:BW professional games? This is ridiculous. This WAS ridiculous and it should be corrected now. I partially agree that we need something like KeSPA, but not like it currently is. If possible, it should be an non-profit organization.
On October 17 2010 13:04 Jienny wrote: I think gretech is making hasty allmost teen like accusations and actions towards negotiations. KeSPA has stated that they are willingly to pay for broadcasting rights many times, and gretech just keep spitting in their face and stall the negotiations. KeSPA not willing to stall the start of PR, and Gretech getting butthurt about it. This has evolved in situation that we now have in hand, propaganda and smoke screens of trying to get fans fight with each other and get the "Moral victory" before going in court.
Hopefully Korea makes gretech/blizzard lose badly in court so that justice, in my opinion is served. (Even if i slightly agree that KeSPA shoud not win it. [Actually make court drop both particapants from whole e-sport scene and install whole new organisation, no more toying with e-sports as this starts to evolve in fight that resembles my youthood with my sister and me fighting over a toy...])
If KeSPA gain that broadcasting right, it won't be good. KeSPA is trying to buy whole broadcasting right to gain their profit by charging 700mil won from OGN, Mgame, and any other broadcast stations who are willing to broadcast Proleague, which they've been doing this illegally for long time.
If KeSPA accept the deal, then OGN and Mgame will now pay only 100mil to Gretech, instead of paying 700mil to KeSPA, and Proleague will be held for only 1 won. This is really good for Proleague, fans, and broadcasters.
But KeSPA won't do this deal because they can't make few billion wons they usually made illegally. That's why KeSPA is denying this deal.
After all, all KeSPA want is just money off SC1. For fans? eSports? Gamers? Such liars.
and about "Moral victory"...
If you don't know or understand what KeSPA's been doing, here is a easy way to understand:
Blizzard drew a fancy picture. KeSPA began to charge people for looking at that picture. Blizzard tried to negotiate with KeSPA, instead of stopping KeSPA. KeSPA gave a finger to Blizzard. Blizzard urged KeSPA to recognize IP right. KeSPA gave double finger to Blizzard. Blizzard stopped KeSPA for violating IP right KeSPA announced that the picture is public good.
Do you still think KeSPA should gain that "Moral victory" now?
On October 17 2010 13:04 Jienny wrote: I think gretech is making hasty allmost teen like accusations and actions towards negotiations. KeSPA has stated that they are willingly to pay for broadcasting rights many times, and gretech just keep spitting in their face and stall the negotiations. KeSPA not willing to stall the start of PR, and Gretech getting butthurt about it. This has evolved in situation that we now have in hand, propaganda and smoke screens of trying to get fans fight with each other and get the "Moral victory" before going in court.
Hopefully Korea makes gretech/blizzard lose badly in court so that justice, in my opinion is served. (Even if i slightly agree that KeSPA shoud not win it. [Actually make court drop both particapants from whole e-sport scene and install whole new organisation, no more toying with e-sports as this starts to evolve in fight that resembles my youthood with my sister and me fighting over a toy...])
Blizzard drew a fancy picture. KeSPA began to charge people for looking at that picture.
More like KeSPA invested all the money in the teams and team houses and charged the broadcasters for using their resources like any sport association does.
On October 17 2010 13:04 Jienny wrote: I think gretech is making hasty allmost teen like accusations and actions towards negotiations. KeSPA has stated that they are willingly to pay for broadcasting rights many times, and gretech just keep spitting in their face and stall the negotiations. KeSPA not willing to stall the start of PR, and Gretech getting butthurt about it. This has evolved in situation that we now have in hand, propaganda and smoke screens of trying to get fans fight with each other and get the "Moral victory" before going in court.
Hopefully Korea makes gretech/blizzard lose badly in court so that justice, in my opinion is served. (Even if i slightly agree that KeSPA shoud not win it. [Actually make court drop both particapants from whole e-sport scene and install whole new organisation, no more toying with e-sports as this starts to evolve in fight that resembles my youthood with my sister and me fighting over a toy...])
If KeSPA gain that broadcasting right, it won't be good. KeSPA is trying to buy whole broadcasting right to gain their profit by charging 700mil won from OGN, Mgame, and any other broadcast stations who are willing to broadcast Proleague, which they've been doing this illegally for long time.
If KeSPA accept the deal, then OGN and Mgame will now pay only 100mil to Gretech, instead of paying 700mil to KeSPA, and Proleague will be held for only 1 won. This is really good for Proleague, fans, and broadcasters.
But KeSPA won't do this deal because they can't make few billion wons they usually made illegally. That's why KeSPA is denying this deal.
After all, all KeSPA want is just money off SC1. For fans? eSports? Gamers? Such liars.
and about "Moral victory"...
If you don't know or understand what KeSPA's been doing, here is a easy way to understand:
Blizzard drew a fancy picture. KeSPA began to charge people for looking at that picture. Blizzard tried to negotiate with KeSPA, instead of stopping KeSPA. KeSPA gave a finger to Blizzard. Blizzard urged KeSPA to recognize IP right. KeSPA gave double finger to Blizzard. Blizzard stopped KeSPA for violating IP right KeSPA announced that the picture is public good.
Do you still think KeSPA should gain that "Moral victory" now?
Did you make this account just to bash Kespa? Either you're trying to stir up shit by posting typical Blizzard-is-good shit or you've been living under a rock.
The only thing that can shut these know it all blizz fanboys up is a cold hard ruling by the Korean court.
On October 17 2010 13:06 Selith wrote: If all Gretech wanted was the broadcasting fee, they would have finished up the negotiation long time ago. They want the IP rights recognized, and KeSPA will never accept that.
And why not?
Gretech/Blizzard's demand of IP right is rather unusual.
normally, a company can approach the IP right holder and offer them a fee or royalty in exchange to reproduce their product on license. ie. software company making a video game or movie about Harry Potter. however, in such case, JK Rowling would not own copyrights over the product. she only collects a fee. she may have some control over the product to ensure they remain true to the Harry Potter series, but that is by far not the same as having 50% of the IP rights.
if Blizzard/Gretech own 50% rights, it means EVERY decision, no matter how little or trivial, require their approval.
On October 17 2010 15:50 lakeness wrote: Blizzard drew a fancy picture. KeSPA began to charge people for looking at that picture.
More like KeSPA invested all the money in the teams and team houses and charged the broadcasters for using their resources like any sport association does.
SC1 is not their resource. Sure, they are investing money for teams and team houses. But does that mean they are right to make profit off SC1, which IP right holder did not approved at all?
On October 17 2010 16:06 zenMaster wrote: Did you make this account just to bash Kespa? Either you're trying to stir up shit by posting typical Blizzard-is-good shit or you've been living under a rock.
The only thing that can shut these know it all blizz fanboys up is a cold hard ruling by the Korean court.
I'm more posting about KeSPA-is-shit, sorry.
And I don't think this issue will held in Korean Court. IP right is International issue. Blizzard is United States company, and KeSPA is an organization in Korea. This matter will be most likely held in International Court, which will be big shame for Korea.
On October 17 2010 15:50 lakeness wrote: Blizzard drew a fancy picture. KeSPA began to charge people for looking at that picture.
More like KeSPA invested all the money in the teams and team houses and charged the broadcasters for using their resources like any sport association does.
SC1 is not their resource. Sure, they are investing money for teams and team houses. But does that mean they are right to make profit off SC1, which IP right holder did not approved at all?
They don't make a profit. It's an advertisement venture; as a non-profit I assume they reinvest the money into the teams. And I'm pretty sure 700 million won doesn't cover their costs at all. It's been said before: the issue isn't money, since KeSPA is willing to pay Gretech, but control.
On October 17 2010 11:18 lakeness wrote: 1 sentence summary of this article: 1 won for the tournament, 100mil won for broadcasting fee was what Gretech offered, KeSPA reject this offer.
I see why KeSPA did not wanted to take Gretech's offer.
KeSPA used to charge broadcasters for broadcasting Proleague, which i believe is like 700mil won. If they take Gretech's offer, they won't make money like they used to since this offer will not grant total broadcasting right to KeSPA. That's why they offered 300mil to Gretech so they can have all the broadcasting right and make 700mil from each broadcasters.
Also, this article is not about Gretech getting pwned by KeSPA. Gretech already announced that they won't discuss with KeSPA anymore and will file lawsuit if KeSPA forced to open Proleague illegally. I believe that Gretech announced this to cover up before they stop Proleague forcibly.
If KeSPA really wanted to devote for the SC1 scene and SC1 fans, they should have made agreement with Blizzard in first hand. But, they kept denying IP right, making huge money off charging broadcasters for 10 years, even though they didn't even have a license, and try to cover up all these bs by announcing "SC1 is public good", which is not even true. This is why most of Korean SC fans, even SC1 fans, hate KeSPA; KeSPA wants to make money off SC1 and that's all.
P.S. I do not want the SC1 scene to die either. Don't misunderstand me. I just hate KeSPA being super idiot.
Even though people say KeSPA is violating the IP rights, I still don't believe the so called IP rights from GreTech. Why is KeSPA willing to pay something to broadcast, it is not to acknowledge the IP rights of GreTech, they are just trying to avoid the lawsuit.
Now negotiation is broken down, I hope this goes to court, then we can see how much is this IP right thing from Blizzard really worth. I believe it is not worth as much as Blizzard claimed to be.
To reiterate what's already been stated multiple times in this thread and the Gretech-KeSPA negotiations breakdown thread, that breakdown never actually happened. The negotiations have been ongoing without any stated problem since they said they reopened them. Not sure where that article came from, but it was wrong.
On October 17 2010 09:04 PrinceXizor wrote: I love how in this thread, people say "koreans like kespa and gretech is wrong" using korean opinion as justification and evidence, and then others come in and correct them, that koreans actually vastly oppose kespa, and then korean opinion is just dismissed since they no longer agree with the anti-gretech side.
I've never used Korean opinion as justification (at least I don't remember doing so).
No, I do not feel that KeSPA's ecistence allows them to do whatever they want. If you read my post, you'd know that. ;; I already said KeSPA has done a lot of bad things. But the fact is, the good they have done far outweighs their wrong doing. The reason why Koreans mostly side with Gretech is because they take whatever good KeSPA has done to the esports scene for granted, but at the same time they jump on a KeSPA hate bandwagon everytime they screw up.
KeSPA did good when the original chairman (who was in the game biz before) was in power.
After SK took over (instituting a chairman that had no idea about the game biz), they almost killed BW proscene once because they wanted 1.7 trillion won from IEG, and 500 million won from both broadcasters each as broadcasting fee. They also said they reserved full rights to broadcasting and products made through it.
Right now, they are pushing for a law in which, it would give KeSPA full control over the intellectual property of games (whether it's foreign or domestic-made) that will be involved in e-sports.
Whatever good they did post-SK chairman does not make up for what they are doing.
As far as I remember, they did not want 1.7T won AND 500M won from IEG and OGN/MBC respectively. They asked OGN/MBC money for broadcasting rights to ProLeague (and not, StarCraft in general or all leagues, as some people are saying, spreading misinformation), which is largely their (KeSPA's - 11 team sponsors, the officials, as well as ShinHan Bank, I believe) product. They approached OGN/MBC first with an offer (I'm assuming it was that 500M won you mentioned, don't have the time to do the research and check whether the amount you gave is accurate). When they both declined, they made a public bidding for the rights and IEG offered the most.
As for SKT taking over, interestingly, wikipedia claims that it only happened is 2008, which is after the ProLeague rights scandal, which took place in 2007.
Not only that - KeSPA did not ask for the money to generate profit - they reinvested it back into esports. Since 2007 we've had:
1) ProLeague change to a 5 round system, one round being Winner's League (with a separate prizepool, IIRC) in the 08-09 season.
2) ProLeague change to a 6 round system, two rounds being Winner's League (not sure how prizepools are going to be distributed yet) for the 10-11 season.
3) KeSPA adressing the imbalanced maps issue in ProLeague (rules change).
4) The introduction of Minor/Dream League.
5) KeSPA LAUNCHING SPECIAL FORCE PROLEAGUE (I know it's not related to BW, but it's a major development).
6) KeSPA helping former Pantech EX team find a new sponsor.
7) KeSPA helping former Hanbit Stars team find a new sponsor.
8) KeSPA working on an esports university sort of thing (don't know the details).
9) Shinhan Bank continuing to sponsor ProLeague despite the whole gretech-KeSPA negotations fiasco.
On top of that, KeSPA also helps in developing other games' esports scenes (my knowledge is limited in that regard), colaborates in hosting various international events in Asia, cooperates with gaming associations from Japan, the UK, etc. OGN and MBC (they're part of KeSPA) launched their realities. OGN got a major sponsor for OSL and hosted one of the finals abroad, in Shanghai. It also made broadcasting deals with Chinese broadcasters.
Not to mention the fact that they keep sustaining the progaming teams (which costs millions of dollars a year per team), broadcasting leagues, and supplying the scene with new quality maps. I'm sure there's more, but I believe this alone is enough to prove that KeSPA is not that bad. ;]
On October 17 2010 11:16 Antoine wrote: simply WOW @ KeSPA apologists. i realize you guys love bw (i do too) so you think you love kespa since they're associated with bw, but they aren't jesus like you seem to think.
Nobody's ever implied that they're innocent. What are you on about...
On October 17 2010 15:50 lakeness wrote: Blizzard drew a fancy picture. KeSPA began to charge people for looking at that picture.
More like KeSPA invested all the money in the teams and team houses and charged the broadcasters for using their resources like any sport association does.
SC1 is not their resource. Sure, they are investing money for teams and team houses. But does that mean they are right to make profit off SC1, which IP right holder did not approved at all?
They don't make a profit. It's an advertisement venture; as a non-profit I assume they reinvest the money into the teams. And I'm pretty sure 700 million won doesn't cover their costs at all. It's been said before: the issue isn't money, since KeSPA is willing to pay Gretech, but control.
This. As for the approval part, I have a few questions someone more knowledgeable might be able to answer. I understand that movies shouldn't be reproduced, nor music. However, when you watch someone play SC2 on a stream that operates without Blizzard permission, are you committing an offense against Intellectual Property? How many streamers have Blizzard permission? How is that different from Blizzard's perspective than, say, a tournament without their permission? Maybe streamers should pay Blizzard to be allowed to stream?
On October 17 2010 11:18 lakeness wrote: 1 sentence summary of this article: 1 won for the tournament, 100mil won for broadcasting fee was what Gretech offered, KeSPA reject this offer.
I see why KeSPA did not wanted to take Gretech's offer.
Stop pulling bullshit statements like that out of your ass. There has been no news of KeSPA rejecting that offer.
KeSPA used to charge broadcasters for broadcasting Proleague, which i believe is like 700mil won. If they take Gretech's offer, they won't make money like they used to since this offer will not grant total broadcasting right to KeSPA. That's why they offered 300mil to Gretech so they can have all the broadcasting right and make 700mil from each broadcasters.
This isn't about money. This is about control. If gretech repeats any of the ridiculous demands blizzard gave KeSPA, then I don't see how KeSPA could accept them. Here's what some of the euphemisms coming from gretech may mean:
"We are trying to say that license is needed to broadcast games, and acknowledge that Blizzard owns IP rights to all Blizzard games." = "Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan."
and
"GomTV is not looking to take just the money from Korea e-sports scene through the license. It's to protect the IP rights, which is a very important right for the content businesses, as well as their right to keep it." = "4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos."
Also "The goal is to further increase the size of e-sports, as well as to make it more active through our involvement. To do this, it is important to create a strong relations with the players, teams, other broadcasting stations, and other partners, not just GomTV's own tournaments." might suggest they're still going to try to enforce contracts with progamers that'll override the contracts with their actual sponsors.
If KeSPA really wanted to devote for the SC1 scene and SC1 fans, they should have made agreement with Blizzard in first hand. But, they kept denying IP right, making huge money off charging broadcasters for 10 years, even though they didn't even have a license, and try to cover up all these bs by announcing "SC1 is public good", which is not even true. This is why most of Korean SC fans, even SC1 fans, hate KeSPA; KeSPA wants to make money off SC1 and that's all.
P.S. I do not want the SC1 scene to die either. Don't misunderstand me. I just hate KeSPA being super idiot.
No, they were not denying blizzard's IP rights (at least not at first). They were defending their perceived rights to derivative work - PL, OSL and MSL.
"But, they kept denying IP right, making huge money off charging broadcasters for 10 years"
That is an OUTRIGHT LIE. You really are trying to stir shit up. They were not charging broadcasters until 2007, and they reinvest all the money, they are not making any profit off of it...
KeSPA would've been "super idiot" had they accepted those ridiculous conditions:
1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year 2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan 3. All progamers under Kespa are to sigh a contract with Blizzard that overrides that of Kespa. 4. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement 5. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos 6. Right to audit KeSPA ...
Korean fans hate KeSPA because KeSPA has done plenty wrong, BUT they take whatever KeSPA's done good FOR GRANTED.
On October 17 2010 09:04 PrinceXizor wrote: I love how in this thread, people say "koreans like kespa and gretech is wrong" using korean opinion as justification and evidence, and then others come in and correct them, that koreans actually vastly oppose kespa, and then korean opinion is just dismissed since they no longer agree with the anti-gretech side.
I've never used Korean opinion as justification (at least I don't remember doing so).
No, I do not feel that KeSPA's ecistence allows them to do whatever they want. If you read my post, you'd know that. ;; I already said KeSPA has done a lot of bad things. But the fact is, the good they have done far outweighs their wrong doing. The reason why Koreans mostly side with Gretech is because they take whatever good KeSPA has done to the esports scene for granted, but at the same time they jump on a KeSPA hate bandwagon everytime they screw up.
KeSPA did good when the original chairman (who was in the game biz before) was in power.
After SK took over (instituting a chairman that had no idea about the game biz), they almost killed BW proscene once because they wanted 1.7 trillion won from IEG, and 500 million won from both broadcasters each as broadcasting fee. They also said they reserved full rights to broadcasting and products made through it.
Right now, they are pushing for a law in which, it would give KeSPA full control over the intellectual property of games (whether it's foreign or domestic-made) that will be involved in e-sports.
Whatever good they did post-SK chairman does not make up for what they are doing.
As far as I remember, they did not want 1.7T won AND 500M won from IEG and OGN/MBC respectively. They asked OGN/MBC money for broadcasting rights to ProLeague (and not, StarCraft in general or all leagues, as some people are saying, spreading misinformation), which is largely their (KeSPA's - 11 team sponsors, the officials, as well as ShinHan Bank, I believe) product. They approached OGN/MBC first with an offer (I'm assuming it was that 500M won you mentioned, don't have the time to do the research and check whether the amount you gave is accurate). When they both declined, they made a public bidding for the rights and IEG offered the most.
As for SKT taking over, interestingly, wikipedia claims that it only happened is 2008, which is after the ProLeague rights scandal, which took place in 2007.
Not only that - KeSPA did not ask for the money to generate profit - they reinvested it back into esports. Since 2007 we've had:
1) ProLeague change to a 5 round system, one round being Winner's League (with a separate prizepool, IIRC) in the 08-09 season.
2) ProLeague change to a 6 round system, two rounds being Winner's League (not sure how prizepools are going to be distributed yet) for the 10-11 season.
3) KeSPA adressing the imbalanced maps issue in ProLeague (rules change).
4) The introduction of Minor/Dream League.
5) KeSPA LAUNCHING SPECIAL FORCE PROLEAGUE (I know it's not related to BW, but it's a major development).
6) KeSPA helping former Pantech EX team find a new sponsor.
7) KeSPA helping former Hanbit Stars team find a new sponsor.
8) KeSPA working on an esports university sort of thing (don't know the details).
9) Shinhan Bank continuing to sponsor ProLeague despite the whole gretech-KeSPA negotations fiasco.
On top of that, KeSPA also helps in developing other games' esports scenes (my knowledge is limited in that regard), colaborates in hosting various international events in Asia, cooperates with gaming associations from Japan, the UK, etc. OGN and MBC (they're part of KeSPA) launched their realities. OGN got a major sponsor for OSL and hosted one of the finals abroad, in Shanghai. It also made broadcasting deals with Chinese broadcasters.
Not to mention the fact that they keep sustaining the progaming teams (which costs millions of dollars a year per team), broadcasting leagues, and supplying the scene with new quality maps. I'm sure there's more, but I believe this alone is enough to prove that KeSPA is not that bad. ;]
On October 17 2010 11:16 Antoine wrote: simply WOW @ KeSPA apologists. i realize you guys love bw (i do too) so you think you love kespa since they're associated with bw, but they aren't jesus like you seem to think.
Nobody's ever implied that they're innocent. What are you on about...
10) Finding temporary housing/lodging for former estro players when the team dissolved. Arranging practice facilities for them at Yongsan (in coorperation with OGN)
11) Using the bidding system during the estro draft with a minimum wage in place. Action for example got a significant pay rise.
On October 17 2010 15:50 lakeness wrote: Blizzard drew a fancy picture. KeSPA began to charge people for looking at that picture.
More like KeSPA invested all the money in the teams and team houses and charged the broadcasters for using their resources like any sport association does.
SC1 is not their resource. Sure, they are investing money for teams and team houses. But does that mean they are right to make profit off SC1, which IP right holder did not approved at all?
They don't make a profit. It's an advertisement venture; as a non-profit I assume they reinvest the money into the teams. And I'm pretty sure 700 million won doesn't cover their costs at all. It's been said before: the issue isn't money, since KeSPA is willing to pay Gretech, but control.
This. As for the approval part, I have a few questions someone more knowledgeable might be able to answer. I understand that movies shouldn't be reproduced, nor music. However, when you watch someone play SC2 on a stream that operates without Blizzard permission, are you committing an offense against Intellectual Property? How many streamers have Blizzard permission? How is that different from Blizzard's perspective than, say, a tournament without their permission? Maybe streamers should pay Blizzard to be allowed to stream?
Hrm...the streamers aren't charging anyone for the stream, they can ask for donations, which I think Blizzard don't have authority over. Big corporations like these are also less likely to go after small fry unless they hurt Blizzard's property on a large scale (SC2 hack makers)
On October 17 2010 16:06 zenMaster wrote: Did you make this account just to bash Kespa? Either you're trying to stir up shit by posting typical Blizzard-is-good shit or you've been living under a rock.
The only thing that can shut these know it all blizz fanboys up is a cold hard ruling by the Korean court.
I'm more posting about KeSPA-is-shit, sorry.
And I don't think this issue will held in Korean Court. IP right is International issue. Blizzard is United States company, and KeSPA is an organization in Korea. This matter will be most likely held in International Court, which will be big shame for Korea.
One taking legal action is gretech, Korean company. KeSPA is still organisation under the goverment of Korea (Ministry of Culture, Sports and Tourism) so its going to be intresting fight... who knows where they fight, but should be in Korea.
On October 17 2010 15:50 lakeness wrote: Blizzard drew a fancy picture. KeSPA began to charge people for looking at that picture.
More like KeSPA invested all the money in the teams and team houses and charged the broadcasters for using their resources like any sport association does.
SC1 is not their resource. Sure, they are investing money for teams and team houses. But does that mean they are right to make profit off SC1, which IP right holder did not approved at all?
They don't make a profit. It's an advertisement venture; as a non-profit I assume they reinvest the money into the teams. And I'm pretty sure 700 million won doesn't cover their costs at all. It's been said before: the issue isn't money, since KeSPA is willing to pay Gretech, but control.
This. As for the approval part, I have a few questions someone more knowledgeable might be able to answer. I understand that movies shouldn't be reproduced, nor music. However, when you watch someone play SC2 on a stream that operates without Blizzard permission, are you committing an offense against Intellectual Property? How many streamers have Blizzard permission? How is that different from Blizzard's perspective than, say, a tournament without their permission? Maybe streamers should pay Blizzard to be allowed to stream?
Hrm...the streamers aren't charging anyone for the stream, they can ask for donations, which I think Blizzard don't have authority over. Big corporations like these are also less likely to go after small fry unless they hurt Blizzard's property on a large scale (SC2 hack makers)
They can still have sponsors though, no? Or be used to advertise, say, "handsome nerd" T-shirts (Just an example, not saying anyone has done anything illegal. I don't know if these have Blizzard approval. ) of their own design, making them a company making profit off of Blizzard's IP without directly referencing it. If I were Blizzard I wouldn't interfere with tournaments unless direct profit is made. The 1 year contract is just an insult to injury in their demands.
On October 17 2010 11:18 lakeness wrote: 1 sentence summary of this article: 1 won for the tournament, 100mil won for broadcasting fee was what Gretech offered, KeSPA reject this offer.
I see why KeSPA did not wanted to take Gretech's offer.
Stop pulling bullshit statements like that out of your ass. There has been no news of KeSPA rejecting that offer.
KeSPA used to charge broadcasters for broadcasting Proleague, which i believe is like 700mil won. If they take Gretech's offer, they won't make money like they used to since this offer will not grant total broadcasting right to KeSPA. That's why they offered 300mil to Gretech so they can have all the broadcasting right and make 700mil from each broadcasters.
This isn't about money. This is about control. If gretech repeats any of the ridiculous demands blizzard gave KeSPA, then I don't see how KeSPA could accept them. Here's what some of the euphemisms coming from gretech may mean:
"We are trying to say that license is needed to broadcast games, and acknowledge that Blizzard owns IP rights to all Blizzard games." = "Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan."
and
"GomTV is not looking to take just the money from Korea e-sports scene through the license. It's to protect the IP rights, which is a very important right for the content businesses, as well as their right to keep it." = "4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos."
Also "The goal is to further increase the size of e-sports, as well as to make it more active through our involvement. To do this, it is important to create a strong relations with the players, teams, other broadcasting stations, and other partners, not just GomTV's own tournaments." might suggest they're still going to try to enforce contracts with progamers that'll override the contracts with their actual sponsors.
If KeSPA really wanted to devote for the SC1 scene and SC1 fans, they should have made agreement with Blizzard in first hand. But, they kept denying IP right, making huge money off charging broadcasters for 10 years, even though they didn't even have a license, and try to cover up all these bs by announcing "SC1 is public good", which is not even true. This is why most of Korean SC fans, even SC1 fans, hate KeSPA; KeSPA wants to make money off SC1 and that's all.
P.S. I do not want the SC1 scene to die either. Don't misunderstand me. I just hate KeSPA being super idiot.
No, they were not denying blizzard's IP rights (at least not at first). They were defending their perceived rights to derivative work - PL, OSL and MSL.
"But, they kept denying IP right, making huge money off charging broadcasters for 10 years"
That is an OUTRIGHT LIE. You really are trying to stir shit up. They were not charging broadcasters until 2007, and they reinvest all the money, they are not making any profit off of it...
KeSPA would've been "super idiot" had they accepted those ridiculous conditions:
1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year 2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan 3. All progamers under Kespa are to sigh a contract with Blizzard that overrides that of Kespa. 4. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement 5. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos 6. Right to audit KeSPA ...
Korean fans hate KeSPA because KeSPA has done plenty wrong, BUT they take whatever KeSPA's done good FOR GRANTED.
Assuming the validity of these statements, I can say that KeSPA and Gretech/Blizzard are both not entirely perfect corporations, but which one should hold their ground in Korea? Honestly, I don't know.
I agree with the statement that Koreans might not be looking at all the "good" KeSPA has done, thus having the general population making pro-blizzard/gretech comments.
From what I can see, KeSPA wants to control IP rights which belong to Blizzard. By controlling the IP rights, they can continue receiving revenue from other companies who want to broadcast Starcraft. They can also keep control of all the different pro teams.
KeSPA has kept the Starcraft scene alive in Korea over the years, but they do not have control of the IP rights, and now that Blizzard has launched Starcraft 2 and want to continue the growth and development of the e-Sports scene, it looks like they want to take over what KeSPA has already accomplished, and Blizzard may have the right to do so, even if it may cause upset.
Please correct me if anything I have said is wrong.
*edited for wrong quote, but same person, thanks for info
On October 16 2010 22:07 Gifted wrote: Some important points to think about:
1. There seems to be an assumption that many people here have that GOMtv will always hold the rights to distribute tournament licenses. For this reason they have to act in a way that is aligned with the wants of Blizzard to ensure this stays in good relation in the future time. Blizzard has repeatedly stated that they want the IP honored in one form or another. So moving forward with the intent to build IP acknowledgement as a precedent is the most important point to be made right now. So far this seems to still be their strategy.
2. This isn't about gaining short-term gains, it's about creating the mentality that's required to profit on it. At this time if you get an entire population to think "I have to pay for what once was free". Only after that public acceptance is set can you truly profit on it. You need a precedent set first.
3. The tournament fees for 1 dollar and broadcasting fee for higher amounts is because there are more StarCraft tournaments in Korean than just those you see online. Be it in PCbangs, at public places, amateur leagues, etc, I'm sure there is a plethora of people who feel relieved that they can still continue their personal tournaments for the mere cost of 1 won. This is also part of the community that they're probably catering to. This would be in order to set a precedent and build up the mentality of "if I want to do a tournament, I will need to pay the licensee".
4. Next, of all the terms it's obvious the payment plan is not what the concern was regarding the negociations, it's the fact that the co-licensee (Gretech) would have access to all the funding and control of the logo placement, etc and would have to turn around and give it to the tournament funder. Note how Gretech specifically states "we would not abuse it"... which shows it has the potential for abuse, even if it never happened. At this point I don't believe it's a case of IP rights at the root, but concern about every dime of the sponsor money being "funneled through" Gretech, even if they keep their honor regarding it and never abuse this ability.
All this, of course, is my personal speculation. But I figured my thoughts (be them right or wrong) would help steer the direction of this conversation, please requote if you appreciated it, even if refuting my thoughts cause I'm curious about all sides.
Quoted
You really have a good points there.
I can understand the necessity of IP rights if it requires the tournaments to use only legal copy of Starcraft. Some websites out there do some kind of starcraft/warcraft league without the necessity of using legal copy.
But if it goes like this then I must say that I agree with Gifted post above.
On October 16 2010 22:07 Gifted wrote: Some important points to think about:
1. There seems to be an assumption that many people here have that GOMtv will always hold the rights to distribute tournament licenses. For this reason they have to act in a way that is aligned with the wants of Blizzard to ensure this stays in good relation in the future time. Blizzard has repeatedly stated that they want the IP honored in one form or another. So moving forward with the intent to build IP acknowledgement as a precedent is the most important point to be made right now. So far this seems to still be their strategy.
2. This isn't about gaining short-term gains, it's about creating the mentality that's required to profit on it. At this time if you get an entire population to think "I have to pay for what once was free". Only after that public acceptance is set can you truly profit on it. You need a precedent set first.
3. The tournament fees for 1 dollar and broadcasting fee for higher amounts is because there are more StarCraft tournaments in Korean than just those you see online. Be it in PCbangs, at public places, amateur leagues, etc, I'm sure there is a plethora of people who feel relieved that they can still continue their personal tournaments for the mere cost of 1 won. This is also part of the community that they're probably catering to. This would be in order to set a precedent and build up the mentality of "if I want to do a tournament, I will need to pay the licensee".
4. Next, of all the terms it's obvious the payment plan is not what the concern was regarding the negociations, it's the fact that the co-licensee (Gretech) would have access to all the funding and control of the logo placement, etc and would have to turn around and give it to the tournament funder. Note how Gretech specifically states "we would not abuse it"... which shows it has the potential for abuse, even if it never happened. At this point I don't believe it's a case of IP rights at the root, but concern about every dime of the sponsor money being "funneled through" Gretech, even if they keep their honor regarding it and never abuse this ability.
All this, of course, is my personal speculation. But I figured my thoughts (be them right or wrong) would help steer the direction of this conversation, please requote if you appreciated it, even if refuting my thoughts cause I'm curious about all sides.
Quoted
You really have a good points there.
I can understand the necessity of IP rights if it requires the tournaments to use only legal copy of Starcraft. Some websites out there do some kind of starcraft/warcraft league without the necessity of using legal copy.
But if it goes like this then I must say that I agree with Gifted post above.
Also, didn't Blizzard negotiate with KeSPA before Gretech and offer them the opportunity to give out licenses, and I'm assuming that KeSPA did not want to abide by the contract because they want to keep control of e-Sports in Korea?
On October 16 2010 22:07 Gifted wrote: Some important points to think about:
1. There seems to be an assumption that many people here have that GOMtv will always hold the rights to distribute tournament licenses. For this reason they have to act in a way that is aligned with the wants of Blizzard to ensure this stays in good relation in the future time. Blizzard has repeatedly stated that they want the IP honored in one form or another. So moving forward with the intent to build IP acknowledgement as a precedent is the most important point to be made right now. So far this seems to still be their strategy.
2. This isn't about gaining short-term gains, it's about creating the mentality that's required to profit on it. At this time if you get an entire population to think "I have to pay for what once was free". Only after that public acceptance is set can you truly profit on it. You need a precedent set first.
3. The tournament fees for 1 dollar and broadcasting fee for higher amounts is because there are more StarCraft tournaments in Korean than just those you see online. Be it in PCbangs, at public places, amateur leagues, etc, I'm sure there is a plethora of people who feel relieved that they can still continue their personal tournaments for the mere cost of 1 won. This is also part of the community that they're probably catering to. This would be in order to set a precedent and build up the mentality of "if I want to do a tournament, I will need to pay the licensee".
4. Next, of all the terms it's obvious the payment plan is not what the concern was regarding the negociations, it's the fact that the co-licensee (Gretech) would have access to all the funding and control of the logo placement, etc and would have to turn around and give it to the tournament funder. Note how Gretech specifically states "we would not abuse it"... which shows it has the potential for abuse, even if it never happened. At this point I don't believe it's a case of IP rights at the root, but concern about every dime of the sponsor money being "funneled through" Gretech, even if they keep their honor regarding it and never abuse this ability.
All this, of course, is my personal speculation. But I figured my thoughts (be them right or wrong) would help steer the direction of this conversation, please requote if you appreciated it, even if refuting my thoughts cause I'm curious about all sides.
Quoted
You really have a good points there.
I can understand the necessity of IP rights if it requires the tournaments to use only legal copy of Starcraft. Some websites out there do some kind of starcraft/warcraft league without the necessity of using legal copy.
But if it goes like this then I must say that I agree with Gifted post above.
Also, didn't Blizzard negotiate with KeSPA before Gretech and offer them the opportunity to give out licenses, and I'm assuming that KeSPA did not want to abide by the contract because they want to keep control of e-Sports in Korea?
Honestly I don't know about the legal aspects of those things, so I can't say that when KeSPA rejecting Blizzard it means that they did wrong, and vice versa.
I think that nobody's really innocence when it involves money though.
On October 17 2010 09:04 PrinceXizor wrote: I love how in this thread, people say "koreans like kespa and gretech is wrong" using korean opinion as justification and evidence, and then others come in and correct them, that koreans actually vastly oppose kespa, and then korean opinion is just dismissed since they no longer agree with the anti-gretech side.
I've never used Korean opinion as justification (at least I don't remember doing so).
No, I do not feel that KeSPA's ecistence allows them to do whatever they want. If you read my post, you'd know that. ;; I already said KeSPA has done a lot of bad things. But the fact is, the good they have done far outweighs their wrong doing. The reason why Koreans mostly side with Gretech is because they take whatever good KeSPA has done to the esports scene for granted, but at the same time they jump on a KeSPA hate bandwagon everytime they screw up.
KeSPA did good when the original chairman (who was in the game biz before) was in power.
After SK took over (instituting a chairman that had no idea about the game biz), they almost killed BW proscene once because they wanted 1.7 trillion won from IEG, and 500 million won from both broadcasters each as broadcasting fee. They also said they reserved full rights to broadcasting and products made through it.
Right now, they are pushing for a law in which, it would give KeSPA full control over the intellectual property of games (whether it's foreign or domestic-made) that will be involved in e-sports.
Whatever good they did post-SK chairman does not make up for what they are doing.
As far as I remember, they did not want 1.7T won AND 500M won from IEG and OGN/MBC respectively. They asked OGN/MBC money for broadcasting rights to ProLeague (and not, StarCraft in general or all leagues, as some people are saying, spreading misinformation), which is largely their (KeSPA's - 11 team sponsors, the officials, as well as ShinHan Bank, I believe) product. They approached OGN/MBC first with an offer (I'm assuming it was that 500M won you mentioned, don't have the time to do the research and check whether the amount you gave is accurate). When they both declined, they made a public bidding for the rights and IEG offered the most.
As for SKT taking over, interestingly, wikipedia claims that it only happened is 2008, which is after the ProLeague rights scandal, which took place in 2007.
Not only that - KeSPA did not ask for the money to generate profit - they reinvested it back into esports. Since 2007 we've had:
1) ProLeague change to a 5 round system, one round being Winner's League (with a separate prizepool, IIRC) in the 08-09 season.
2) ProLeague change to a 6 round system, two rounds being Winner's League (not sure how prizepools are going to be distributed yet) for the 10-11 season.
3) KeSPA adressing the imbalanced maps issue in ProLeague (rules change).
4) The introduction of Minor/Dream League.
5) KeSPA LAUNCHING SPECIAL FORCE PROLEAGUE (I know it's not related to BW, but it's a major development).
6) KeSPA helping former Pantech EX team find a new sponsor.
7) KeSPA helping former Hanbit Stars team find a new sponsor.
8) KeSPA working on an esports university sort of thing (don't know the details).
9) Shinhan Bank continuing to sponsor ProLeague despite the whole gretech-KeSPA negotations fiasco.
On top of that, KeSPA also helps in developing other games' esports scenes (my knowledge is limited in that regard), colaborates in hosting various international events in Asia, cooperates with gaming associations from Japan, the UK, etc. OGN and MBC (they're part of KeSPA) launched their realities. OGN got a major sponsor for OSL and hosted one of the finals abroad, in Shanghai. It also made broadcasting deals with Chinese broadcasters.
Not to mention the fact that they keep sustaining the progaming teams (which costs millions of dollars a year per team), broadcasting leagues, and supplying the scene with new quality maps. I'm sure there's more, but I believe this alone is enough to prove that KeSPA is not that bad. ;]
On October 17 2010 11:16 Antoine wrote: simply WOW @ KeSPA apologists. i realize you guys love bw (i do too) so you think you love kespa since they're associated with bw, but they aren't jesus like you seem to think.
Nobody's ever implied that they're innocent. What are you on about...
Out of this entire article, this post has made the most sense to me. Assuming the validity of these statements, I can say that KeSPA and Gretech/Blizzard are both not entirely perfect corporations, but which one should hold their ground in Korea? Honestly, I don't know.
I agree with the statement that Koreans might not be looking at all the "good" KeSPA has done, thus having the general population making pro-blizzard/gretech comments.
From what I can see, KeSPA wants to control IP rights which belong to Blizzard. By controlling the IP rights, they can continue receiving revenue from other companies who want to broadcast Starcraft. They can also keep control of all the different pro teams.
KeSPA has kept the Starcraft scene alive in Korea over the years, but they do not have control of the IP rights, and now that Blizzard has launched Starcraft 2 and want to continue the growth and development of the e-Sports scene, it looks like they want to take over what KeSPA has already accomplished, and Blizzard may have the right to do so, even if it may cause upset.
Please correct me if anything I have said is wrong.
First of all, thank you.
From what I know, KeSPA wanted to reimburse blizzard for the StarCraft broadcasting rights with money from the very beginning of their negotiations. The reason why their talks ground to a halt were the rest of the demands on blizzard's part. Blizzard demanded total control over something (leagues, all programmes associated with BW, progamers, etc.) KeSPA's investing a lot more money on an annual basis than blizzard has spent on the development and marketing of both SC/BW and SC2 (if not all their titles) combined.
KeSPA does not claim the control over StarCraft IP rights. What they claim is that the broadcasting rights of their leagues are something else completely and that blizzard has no authority over those. Whether that's the case is up to the court to determine, not KeSPA or blizzard apologists.
I'd appreciate if someone more knowledgable than me clarified how the issue of IP rights was handled between the Korean publisher of StarCraft - Hanbit Soft and blizzard. For some reason blizzard allowed KeSPA to operate unhindered until 2007. If they had any objections, they would've surely brought that up to the distributor of BW in Korea, which has been a member of KeSPA since, I believe, its inception until 2008.
As for blizzard wanting to continue the growth of esports, so far they have only made a step backwards. Right now sc2 with its gsl is nothing more than prize hunting. It does not enjoy the stability of BW's progaming scene. Had blizzard left KeSPA alone and let them operate freely in sc2 as well, we would've had an sc2 progaming resembling that of BW - that would've been by far the best for sc2's growth in the esports department, imo. (To those who are going to say that blizzard/gretech invested so much money into gsl - it's only a fraction of blizzard's marketing budget for sc2 most likely, and a single KeSPA team invests a lot more into BW in a single year.)
On October 17 2010 09:04 PrinceXizor wrote: I love how in this thread, people say "koreans like kespa and gretech is wrong" using korean opinion as justification and evidence, and then others come in and correct them, that koreans actually vastly oppose kespa, and then korean opinion is just dismissed since they no longer agree with the anti-gretech side.
I've never used Korean opinion as justification (at least I don't remember doing so).
No, I do not feel that KeSPA's ecistence allows them to do whatever they want. If you read my post, you'd know that. ;; I already said KeSPA has done a lot of bad things. But the fact is, the good they have done far outweighs their wrong doing. The reason why Koreans mostly side with Gretech is because they take whatever good KeSPA has done to the esports scene for granted, but at the same time they jump on a KeSPA hate bandwagon everytime they screw up.
KeSPA did good when the original chairman (who was in the game biz before) was in power.
After SK took over (instituting a chairman that had no idea about the game biz), they almost killed BW proscene once because they wanted 1.7 trillion won from IEG, and 500 million won from both broadcasters each as broadcasting fee. They also said they reserved full rights to broadcasting and products made through it.
Right now, they are pushing for a law in which, it would give KeSPA full control over the intellectual property of games (whether it's foreign or domestic-made) that will be involved in e-sports.
Whatever good they did post-SK chairman does not make up for what they are doing.
As far as I remember, they did not want 1.7T won AND 500M won from IEG and OGN/MBC respectively. They asked OGN/MBC money for broadcasting rights to ProLeague (and not, StarCraft in general or all leagues, as some people are saying, spreading misinformation), which is largely their (KeSPA's - 11 team sponsors, the officials, as well as ShinHan Bank, I believe) product. They approached OGN/MBC first with an offer (I'm assuming it was that 500M won you mentioned, don't have the time to do the research and check whether the amount you gave is accurate). When they both declined, they made a public bidding for the rights and IEG offered the most.
As for SKT taking over, interestingly, wikipedia claims that it only happened is 2008, which is after the ProLeague rights scandal, which took place in 2007.
Not only that - KeSPA did not ask for the money to generate profit - they reinvested it back into esports. Since 2007 we've had:
1) ProLeague change to a 5 round system, one round being Winner's League (with a separate prizepool, IIRC) in the 08-09 season.
2) ProLeague change to a 6 round system, two rounds being Winner's League (not sure how prizepools are going to be distributed yet) for the 10-11 season.
3) KeSPA adressing the imbalanced maps issue in ProLeague (rules change).
4) The introduction of Minor/Dream League.
5) KeSPA LAUNCHING SPECIAL FORCE PROLEAGUE (I know it's not related to BW, but it's a major development).
6) KeSPA helping former Pantech EX team find a new sponsor.
7) KeSPA helping former Hanbit Stars team find a new sponsor.
8) KeSPA working on an esports university sort of thing (don't know the details).
9) Shinhan Bank continuing to sponsor ProLeague despite the whole gretech-KeSPA negotations fiasco.
On top of that, KeSPA also helps in developing other games' esports scenes (my knowledge is limited in that regard), colaborates in hosting various international events in Asia, cooperates with gaming associations from Japan, the UK, etc. OGN and MBC (they're part of KeSPA) launched their realities. OGN got a major sponsor for OSL and hosted one of the finals abroad, in Shanghai. It also made broadcasting deals with Chinese broadcasters.
Not to mention the fact that they keep sustaining the progaming teams (which costs millions of dollars a year per team), broadcasting leagues, and supplying the scene with new quality maps. I'm sure there's more, but I believe this alone is enough to prove that KeSPA is not that bad. ;]
On October 17 2010 11:16 Antoine wrote: simply WOW @ KeSPA apologists. i realize you guys love bw (i do too) so you think you love kespa since they're associated with bw, but they aren't jesus like you seem to think.
Nobody's ever implied that they're innocent. What are you on about...
Out of this entire article, this post has made the most sense to me. Assuming the validity of these statements, I can say that KeSPA and Gretech/Blizzard are both not entirely perfect corporations, but which one should hold their ground in Korea? Honestly, I don't know.
I agree with the statement that Koreans might not be looking at all the "good" KeSPA has done, thus having the general population making pro-blizzard/gretech comments.
From what I can see, KeSPA wants to control IP rights which belong to Blizzard. By controlling the IP rights, they can continue receiving revenue from other companies who want to broadcast Starcraft. They can also keep control of all the different pro teams.
KeSPA has kept the Starcraft scene alive in Korea over the years, but they do not have control of the IP rights, and now that Blizzard has launched Starcraft 2 and want to continue the growth and development of the e-Sports scene, it looks like they want to take over what KeSPA has already accomplished, and Blizzard may have the right to do so, even if it may cause upset.
Please correct me if anything I have said is wrong.
First of all, thank you.
From what I know, KeSPA wanted to reimburse blizzard for the StarCraft broadcasting rights with money from the very beginning of their negotiations. The reason why their talks ground to a halt were the rest of the demands on blizzard's part. Blizzard demanded total control over something (leagues, all programmes associated with BW, progamers, etc.) KeSPA's investing a lot more money on an annual basis than blizzard has spent on the development and marketing of both SC/BW and SC2 (if not all their titles) combined.
KeSPA does not claim the control over StarCraft IP rights. What they claim is that the broadcasting rights of their leagues are something else completely and that blizzard has no authority over those. Whether that's the case is up to the court to determine, not KeSPA or blizzard apologists.
I'd appreciate if someone more knowledgable than me clarified how the issue of IP rights was handled between the Korean publisher of StarCraft - Hanbit Soft and blizzard. For some reason blizzard allowed KeSPA to operate unhindered until 2007. If they had any objections, they would've surely brought that up to the distributor of BW in Korea, which has been a member of KeSPA since, I believe, its inception until 2008.
As for blizzard wanting to continue the growth of esports, so far they have only made a step backwards. Right now sc2 with its gsl is nothing more than prize hunting. It does not enjoy the stability of BW's progaming scene. Had blizzard left KeSPA alone and let them operate freely in sc2 as well, we would've had an sc2 progaming resembling that of BW - that would've been by far the best for sc2's growth in the esports department, imo. (To those who are going to say that blizzard/gretech invested so much money into gsl - it's only a fraction of blizzard's marketing budget for sc2 most likely, and a single KeSPA team invests a lot more into BW in a single year.)
So upon hearing that Blizzard has left KeSPA in control of Korean e-Sports since 2007, this has led me to believe that Blizzard is trying to capitalize on KeSPA's hard work. Even if they did not have the right to do so, which we will let the courts decide should it ever come to that.
Let us all remember that Blizzard is no longer, they are Activision-Blizzard. It is because of the merger with Activision occurring during the end of 2007. Perhaps if Blizzard was still it's own company and did not merger with Activision, then things would not have changed within the Korean e-Sports scene, since before the merger the company did not seem to care what KeSPA did. However, I am not sure on the dates between the KeSPA negotations and the merger with Activision, so take that with a grain of salt.
I hope both sides can come to a conclusion that will benefit everyone. I do not want to see any negative repercussions to KeSPA, the pro gaming teams, fans, or Blizzard/Gretech.
On October 17 2010 21:40 maybenexttime wrote: Actually, to be precise, the parent company of Blizzard - Vivendi Games merged with Activision and formed Activision-Blizzard. The reason why the new company is called Activision-Blizzard is because it was Vivendi Games' most successful and famous game studio. Now Blizzard is a subsidiary of Activision-Blizzard. I believe some of the people high in the Blizzard hierarchy have some say in what Activision-Blizzard does, but I'm not really sure.
As for your last paragraph, I'm afraid this is a zero sum equation - for one side to gain something, the other has to lose something. Right now Blizzard wants to gain something, while KeSPA wants to at least keep the status quo and/or maybe gain something in the long run.
I see. My last sentences was to just bring a little positive ray of hope to the situation, but I do agree with what you have to say. I guess right now we will have to see what the future holds, and just enjoy what we have.
Actually, to be precise, the parent company of Blizzard - Vivendi Games merged with Activision and formed Activision-Blizzard. The reason why the new company is called Activision-Blizzard is because it was Vivendi Games' most successful and famous game studio. Now Blizzard is a subsidiary of Activision-Blizzard. I believe some of the people high in the Blizzard hierarchy have some say in what Activision-Blizzard does, but I'm not really sure.
As for your last paragraph, I'm afraid this is a zero sum equation - for one side to gain something, the other has to lose something. Right now Blizzard wants to gain something, while KeSPA wants to at least keep the status quo and/or maybe gain something in the long run.
Is it not also true that despite all the 'good ' things KeSPA has supposedly done for e-sports over the years the fan base has declined since 2007, and also less sponsorship I think? That the team system - whilst good for team members - is very much a closed shop to everyone outside the system. That KeSPA in particular is totally Korean centric to the detriment of e-sports globally.
Just my 2 cents worth
Also - BW is old - looks old - feels old - and no one outside cares - SC2 is fresh and looks good and is garnering wide interest outside - time to move on people
Kespa should have and was willing to pay the licensing fee to use the game.
Its where the law is blurred that blizzard and kespa halted negotiations, that is, control over the leagues, tournaments, broadcasting, and contracts for progamers.
Blizzard do not own all these things, they only own the game, which kespa is willing to pay for, but they should never have to agree to these terms that give blizzard control over something Kespa has spent 10 + years building.
They come in after so many years and just try to capitalize on Kespa's work.
And before the blizz fanboys continue raging about profiteering, Kespa is a NON PROFIT ORGANISATION. All the money they charged didn't even recoup the money they put in to keep the pro teams running.
I get so angry at the lack of respect the new people are showing to the organisation that has kept brood war going far beyond its natural life span, whom were willing to accept they had to pay for the licensing of the game, but were not willing to basically take over their entire operation.
There are plenty of great games, and none of them will live this long because they don't have an e sport association like kespa to keep it going.
On October 17 2010 21:57 RhodanP wrote: Is it not also true that despite all the 'good ' things KeSPA has supposedly done for e-sports over the years the fan base has declined since 2007, and also less sponsorship I think? That the team system - whilst good for team members - is very much a closed shop to everyone outside the system. That KeSPA in particular is totally Korean centric to the detriment of e-sports globally.
Just my 2 cents worth
Also - BW is old - looks old - feels old - and no one outside cares - SC2 is fresh and looks good and is garnering wide interest outside - time to move on people
Yes Rhodan, and yet after so many years of building it alone with no outside help, blizzard comes in in 2007 and demands total control over the entire operation, under the guise of "IP rights". That doesn't help e-sports either.
In regards to the decline, i think this is just the natural death of any esports game. It is old and will decline slowly. but the fact that it has lived for so long (an astounding 12 years) for a video game is (in my opinion) directly the result of Kespa's efforts, not blizzard's.
blizzard don't own the pro league or OSL or MSL or any of the teams. Their ip rights dont go so far as to dictate who contracts as pro gamers. Thats just acti-blizz bullshit.
On October 17 2010 12:59 bluetrolls wrote: Is anyone as disturbed by the whole "IP rights" stance as I am? Should a movie that takes a shot of a Toyota(TM) car have to pay "IP rights" to Toyota? If I make a picture of my kids playing with Lego(TM) blocks, do I have to pay a fee to the Lego company if I want to post them online? Where is the line drawn?
If it's homemade and home shown, then no, you don't have to pay anything. If you decide to show it in theaters and make money out of it like that Facebook movie, then yes, you have to pay IP rights. Exceptions are parodies and news coverage. But basically, there is no line drawn. The reason you tag (TM) behind these corp's names is to recognize and respect their label names. Normal sports, like football, etc... are public goods. But everything we're discussing here is man made.
On October 17 2010 19:51 maybenexttime wrote: KeSPA's investing a lot more money on an annual basis than blizzard has spent on the development and marketing of both SC/BW and SC2 (if not all their titles) combined.
Really? SC2 dev cost alone is $100 mil. Of course BW was made back when Blizz was like 1/10 the size it is now so it's significantly less. But somehow I doubt that KeSPA was investing that much back "annually".
On October 17 2010 21:57 RhodanP wrote: Is it not also true that despite all the 'good ' things KeSPA has supposedly done for e-sports over the years the fan base has declined since 2007, and also less sponsorship I think? That the team system - whilst good for team members - is very much a closed shop to everyone outside the system. That KeSPA in particular is totally Korean centric to the detriment of e-sports globally.
Just my 2 cents worth
Also - BW is old - looks old - feels old - and no one outside cares - SC2 is fresh and looks good and is garnering wide interest outside - time to move on people
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLL If only I had a nickle every time I see this as an argument to why SC2 is better.
On October 17 2010 21:57 RhodanP wrote: Is it not also true that despite all the 'good ' things KeSPA has supposedly done for e-sports over the years the fan base has declined since 2007, and also less sponsorship I think?
Not true. It has on a slow decline since like 2005-2006, but what really damaged it was the war blizzard is waging on BW in Korea.
Shinhan Bank ProLeague Season 2010-2011 and two seasons of Korean Air OSL (third might be coming) are far from less sponsorship.
That the team system - whilst good for team members - is very much a closed shop to everyone outside the system.
If you're not good enough to get recruited by a team (not necessarily as an A-team member...), you won't achieve anything anyway; if you are - you will get recruited. There are many opportunities to get drafted.
That KeSPA in particular is totally Korean centric to the detriment of e-sports globally.
How is being passive at worst detrimental to esports globally? Your "rhethoric question" is simply wrong. Just because KeSPA does not invest nearly as much into esports outside of Korea, does not mean it does not help foster esports globally at all.
Just my 2 cents worth
Wouldn't give more than that for your 'input,' true.
Also - BW is old - looks old - feels old - and no one outside cares - SC2 is fresh and looks good and is garnering wide interest outside - time to move on people
BW is seasoned, looks classic, feels great and people outside of Korea still care about it. Over 4k people watched SKT vs. KT match yesterday. ;]
Why would I move to an inferior game? It's less fun to play, has many gameplay flaws, the graphics lack clarity and descrease the spectator value because of that, there's little micro (hardly any micro techniques), less macro, less multi-tasking, the maps are horrendous, and so on. So why bother?
On October 17 2010 19:51 maybenexttime wrote: KeSPA's investing a lot more money on an annual basis than blizzard has spent on the development and marketing of both SC/BW and SC2 (if not all their titles) combined.
Really? SC2 dev cost alone is $100 mil. Of course BW was made back when Blizz was like 1/10 the size it is now so it's significantly less. But somehow I doubt that KeSPA was investing that much back "annually".
Sustaining a team like CJ Entus (now Hite Entus) costs CJ $40 mil a year. For years there used to be 11 progaming teams. Then take into consideration maintaining the leagues and broadcasting them on the TV - that includes plenty of other titles, not just BW.
On October 16 2010 15:46 Emon_ wrote: About the 100million won fee for tournaments - didn't KeSPA say that the max they would go to was 55-60million? I think it was in one of the news posts about the negotiations.
Also, why is this post released now? If they really cared about the scene this could've come two weeks ago. There is nothing earth shattering in the document. Only when KeSPA went ahead with the SPL despite there being no contract and possibly facing a lawsuit do they decide to speak up. GomTV/Gretech are handling this like amateurs. Shows how much Blizzard really cares about BW.
Kespa offered 300 million won I think
Yeah, that was reported in one of the other threads. And it was stated that Gretech rejected the 300 million won. What gives?
On October 16 2010 15:46 Emon_ wrote: About the 100million won fee for tournaments - didn't KeSPA say that the max they would go to was 55-60million? I think it was in one of the news posts about the negotiations.
Also, why is this post released now? If they really cared about the scene this could've come two weeks ago. There is nothing earth shattering in the document. Only when KeSPA went ahead with the SPL despite there being no contract and possibly facing a lawsuit do they decide to speak up. GomTV/Gretech are handling this like amateurs. Shows how much Blizzard really cares about BW.
Kespa offered 300 million won I think
Yeah, that was reported in one of the other threads. And it was stated that Gretech rejected the 300 million won. What gives?
Well Gom wants their logo on Proleague
If this was about a simple logo, this wouldnt've dragged on for three years... T____T As a matter of fact, last OSL had a blizzard logo during the finals.
Sustaining a team like CJ Entus (now Hite Entus) costs CJ $40 mil a year. For years there used to be 11 progaming teams. Then take into consideration maintaining the leagues and broadcasting them on the TV - that includes plenty of other titles, not just BW.
You do the math...
The sponsorships keep the teams running. Like the "CJ Corp" in CJ Entus. Not KeSPA. The leagues themselves for the most part are independent of KeSPA, all KeSPA does is leech money off of the people who run the leagues and broadcasters. All these are illegal activities since they have no rights to do such in the first place.
Sustaining a team like CJ Entus (now Hite Entus) costs CJ $40 mil a year. For years there used to be 11 progaming teams. Then take into consideration maintaining the leagues and broadcasting them on the TV - that includes plenty of other titles, not just BW.
You do the math...
The sponsorships keep the teams running. Like the "CJ Corp" in CJ Entus. Not KeSPA. The leagues themselves for the most part are independent of KeSPA, all KeSPA does is leech money off of the people who run the leagues and broadcasters. All these are illegal activities since they have no rights to do such in the first place.
Seriously, how many times do people have to explain that? KeSPA = team sponsors + officials + broadcasters + ...
If you don't know what the heck you're talking about, do not post...
On October 16 2010 15:46 Emon_ wrote: About the 100million won fee for tournaments - didn't KeSPA say that the max they would go to was 55-60million? I think it was in one of the news posts about the negotiations.
Also, why is this post released now? If they really cared about the scene this could've come two weeks ago. There is nothing earth shattering in the document. Only when KeSPA went ahead with the SPL despite there being no contract and possibly facing a lawsuit do they decide to speak up. GomTV/Gretech are handling this like amateurs. Shows how much Blizzard really cares about BW.
Kespa offered 300 million won I think
Yeah, that was reported in one of the other threads. And it was stated that Gretech rejected the 300 million won. What gives?
Well Gom wants their logo on Proleague
If this was about a simple logo, this wouldnt've dragged on for three years... T____T As a matter of fact, last OSL had a blizzard logo during the finals.
Well there is a difrence between a Blizzard logo and big GOMTV logo (that has nth to do with sc1 and proleagu)
Also about IP right. Blizzard holds IP right to Starcraft 1.. Kespa holds IP rights to ProLeague... And it was said before that Blizzard want all rights to it. So be enforcing their own rights they are restricting other company IP rights...
On October 16 2010 15:46 Emon_ wrote: About the 100million won fee for tournaments - didn't KeSPA say that the max they would go to was 55-60million? I think it was in one of the news posts about the negotiations.
Also, why is this post released now? If they really cared about the scene this could've come two weeks ago. There is nothing earth shattering in the document. Only when KeSPA went ahead with the SPL despite there being no contract and possibly facing a lawsuit do they decide to speak up. GomTV/Gretech are handling this like amateurs. Shows how much Blizzard really cares about BW.
Kespa offered 300 million won I think
Yeah, that was reported in one of the other threads. And it was stated that Gretech rejected the 300 million won. What gives?
Well Gom wants their logo on Proleague
If this was about a simple logo, this wouldnt've dragged on for three years... T____T As a matter of fact, last OSL had a blizzard logo during the finals.
Well there is a difrence between a Blizzard logo and big GOMTV logo (that has nth to do with sc1 and proleagu)
Also about IP right. Blizzard holds IP right to Starcraft 1.. Kespa holds IP rights to ProLeague... And it was said before that Blizzard want all rights to it. So be enforcing their own rights they are restricting other company IP rights...
Doesnt sound to good
These two statements should not be said as if they were fact. If this issue does eventually end up in court i believe the battle will mostly be over what is "IP" and how far does Blizzard's "IP" over the Starcraft franchise stretch (players/leagues).
Didn't read through the thread responses but does anyone else think this is really fishy? 1 year term before renegotiation?
This sounds like Blizzard/Gretech giving up first year profits in exchange for guaranteeing their right to the IP, then year 2 onwards they can jack up the rate however they like, and Kespa at that point has no legal path other than to accept it.
On October 18 2010 00:54 StorkHwaiting wrote: Didn't read through the thread responses but does anyone else think this is really fishy? 1 year term before renegotiation?
This sounds like Blizzard/Gretech giving up first year profits in exchange for guaranteeing their right to the IP, then year 2 onwards they can jack up the rate however they like, and Kespa at that point has no legal path other than to accept it.
This is one of the original reasons why KeSPA declined blizzard's offer - they too wanted KeSPA to sign a 1 year deal. Gretech, on the other hand, got a 3 year contract.
On October 17 2010 12:59 bluetrolls wrote: Is anyone as disturbed by the whole "IP rights" stance as I am? Should a movie that takes a shot of a Toyota(TM) car have to pay "IP rights" to Toyota? If I make a picture of my kids playing with Lego(TM) blocks, do I have to pay a fee to the Lego company if I want to post them online? Where is the line drawn?
actually its normally Toyota who pay the film company or atleast give them the car for free, its how corporate sponsorship works in movies. Every time you see a named brand in a film, they have either paid for it to be there or gifted it to the studio to get them brand recognition. Its totally different to IP rights.
IP rights are what the studio has over the film, what a car manufacturer has over the technology in their cars, what game companies have over the content of their game.
As for your lego argument, you aren't making any money, therefore you aren't violating any IP rights. If you were uploading videos of lego and charging to watch them lego would sue your ass in a heart beat as you are making money off their product without their consent.
Blizzard only started trying to enforce their IP right in the last few years because until then there wasn't such things as IP rights, atleast not in the sense we have now, by law. Before then, there were copyright laws that stated you needed permission to sell or copy games, but it did not protect the broadcast of those games in the way that it did films.
When laws were made for IP, games companies got the right to control the images within the game, they got the right to stop epople broadcasting their games and making money off them.
On October 17 2010 12:59 bluetrolls wrote: Is anyone as disturbed by the whole "IP rights" stance as I am? Should a movie that takes a shot of a Toyota(TM) car have to pay "IP rights" to Toyota? If I make a picture of my kids playing with Lego(TM) blocks, do I have to pay a fee to the Lego company if I want to post them online? Where is the line drawn?
actually its normally Toyota who pay the film company or atleast give them the car for free, its how corporate sponsorship works in movies. Every time you see a named brand in a film, they have either paid for it to be there or gifted it to the studio to get them brand recognition. Its totally different to IP rights.
IP rights are what the studio has over the film, what a car manufacturer has over the technology in their cars, what game companies have over the content of their game.
As for your lego argument, you aren't making any money, therefore you aren't violating any IP rights. If you were uploading videos of lego and charging to watch them lego would sue your ass in a heart beat as you are making money off their product without their consent.
Blizzard only started trying to enforce their IP right in the last few years because until then there wasn't such things as IP rights, atleast not in the sense we have now, by law. Before then, there were copyright laws that stated you needed permission to sell or copy games, but it did not protect the broadcast of those games in the way that it did films.
When laws were made for IP, games companies got the right to control the images within the game, they got the right to stop epople broadcasting their games and making money off them.
Afaik there were already appropriate laws way before blizzard went into "negotiations" with KeSPA.
Sustaining a team like CJ Entus (now Hite Entus) costs CJ $40 mil a year. For years there used to be 11 progaming teams. Then take into consideration maintaining the leagues and broadcasting them on the TV - that includes plenty of other titles, not just BW.
You do the math...
The sponsorships keep the teams running. Like the "CJ Corp" in CJ Entus. Not KeSPA. The leagues themselves for the most part are independent of KeSPA, all KeSPA does is leech money off of the people who run the leagues and broadcasters. All these are illegal activities since they have no rights to do such in the first place.
Kespa = team sponsors and pro league. Leech money? they are a not for profit organisation that charged OGN and MBC some money to broadcast the pro league organised by kespa to recoup some of the huge costs it requires to run 12 pro gaming teams on a salary.
Too many blizzard fanboys posting before they do at least some small background research.
They get it in their head that theres some massive profit scheme going on wen they see the flashy pro leagues running.
Money to license the game was never an issue, blizzard wanted control over everything.
On October 18 2010 00:54 StorkHwaiting wrote: Didn't read through the thread responses but does anyone else think this is really fishy? 1 year term before renegotiation?
This sounds like Blizzard/Gretech giving up first year profits in exchange for guaranteeing their right to the IP, then year 2 onwards they can jack up the rate however they like, and Kespa at that point has no legal path other than to accept it.
Well, actually a annual contract and a 1 year contract are different. annual contracts have the expectation of being resigned after a MUTUAL agreement on terms (they tend to be identical to the previous year adjusted for inflation unless somethin drastic happens) 1 year contracts leaves both out in the cold after one year and they need to try to get a contract again. annuals are just renewable.
as for Kespa = the sponsers and stuff. thats part of the problem. They pay for the teams, and thenmake more money than they spend by chargign for rights and stuff. and so they are pretty much making money to advertise. this would be similar to a football stadium paying a company to put the companies name on their stadium. thats just stupid and wrong. they should be sponsering the team for revenue from the advertising and not to make a quick flip with the investment for money. thats not caring for the team/how they are doing at all.
On October 18 2010 05:46 Danneth wrote: We need more sc2 broadcasting.
Who is that "we" you're speaking of?
"We" is anyone who enjoys watching SC2. A condescending attitude isn't really necessary here. I've been playing broodwar and practically every blizzard game starting with diablo and wc2, including SC,2 and I enjoy all of them. You have to realize that if e-sports is going to continue to grow and expand, SC2 is going to be a pivotal part of that expansion and growth. Especially in the US.
I am really tired of seeing nothing but blind hatred towards blizzard/Gretech and even Kespa. Is either side 100% in the right? No, but neither side is completely in the wrong. You can argue that Blizzard/Gretech are taking something the Kespa put effort into creating. On the other side of the same coin, Kespa created something from what Blizzard created. No BW, no Kespa, no BW scene. Both have viable claims and if this was so clear cut, we wouldn't have this ongoing issue.
I won't hide my bias, I originally got into BW watching savior duke it out with Nal Ra at blizzcon and I was enthralled. After that I discovered TL and began following the entire scene. When GOM came around I was ecstatic to have one of my favorite casters casting a tournament partially aimed at a foreign audience. When the GOM classic died because of lack of participation, I was very angry, especially with Kespa. Yes people can say the players were overworked/uninterested, but I heartily doubt that was the entire case, especially with what Super Daniel Man posted. After Blizzard put the funding into GOM, being muscled out probably left a sour taste in their mouth as well as mine. I realize two wrongs don't make a right, but it does feel like some comeuppance if a Kespa sponsored/run tournament gets shut down similarly.
There is also no reason for people to be doom saying that Blizzard/Gretech winning this law suit will mean the end of BW. If you want to talk from a pure monetary standpoint, Blizzard would profit from keeping the BW scene going concurrent with SC2. The only way it would die is if Kespa chooses to LET the BW scene die if Blizzard/Gretech win. There hasn't been talk of dissolving Kespa at all as far as I have seen. If they are truly non-profit (which I whole-heartedly doubt), I am sure that Kespa can be worked into whatever changing system that Blizzard/Gretech implements and if they choose not to, it really is theirs, and the fans loss. Either way, the BW scene is going to change, and acting like a child and screaming whenever something changes, isn't going to help. If Kespa dissolves, I am sure someone will pick up the pieces. As long as there are players wanting to play, companies willing to sponsor tournaments, and fans willing to watch, the BW scene will continue, in one form or another.
I also can't believe how much the Korean fans input is being marginalized. As if we truly know better when it comes to the complicated mess of BW politics. From what I have seen, I would compare Kespa to a labor union that has outlived its usefulness. Their only purpose is to control the BW scene, and to perpetuate their own existence. They don't exist to help the players, as was seen in their mockery of free agency. Just because they are the current ruling body, doesn't mean they need to stay that way and it seems a large portion of Korean fans feel the same.
I wouldn't be surprised to see this case go on for a quite a while and even get appealed to an international court regardless of the outcome in Korea. Either way, people need to get used to change, because E-Sports, including BW, is changing.
I was incredibly neutrel to this entire thing, all i did before was watch the broadcasts, but after joining this site and seeing all the arguements in this and the other thread, quite frankly the people arguing for kespa are terrible, 99% of you completly fail in the logic department, and just try to appeal to other fans like yourselves, and dont offer true arguments.
Perfect example is around 8 posts above me, how blizz owns IP rights, and kespa holds IP rights to proleague. PROLEAGUE CAN NOT EXIST WITHOUT STARCRAFT. Starcraft can exist without proleague, the fact is that sc1 proleague requires....... sc1. Wow how crazy, how on earth did i know this..... Because I used logic, and didn't just go OMG SOMETHING MAY THREATEN sc1 pro scene BAD BAD BAD BAD. Well guess what, the entire kespa sc1 thing IS ILLEGAL, period end of story, and you guys havn't even been able to prove that kespa is willing to negotiate in good faith.
I had zero dog in this fight, I don't work for blizzard (and dislike ativision greatly...) or gretech, and really all I did before was enjoy the games. Well done, I wasn't even convinced much by the pro gretech arguements, as I was by the pure uneducated, not well thought out, just plain elementary grade school arguments from pro kespa people on these forums, which really is quite sad because for the most part this site is superior. My view? Purely based upon the arguments from the users on this forum, is that kespa is totally in the wrong over 90% fault on their side, with gretech in the right with 10% fault.
On October 18 2010 00:54 StorkHwaiting wrote: Didn't read through the thread responses but does anyone else think this is really fishy? 1 year term before renegotiation?
This sounds like Blizzard/Gretech giving up first year profits in exchange for guaranteeing their right to the IP, then year 2 onwards they can jack up the rate however they like, and Kespa at that point has no legal path other than to accept it.
Well, actually a annual contract and a 1 year contract are different. annual contracts have the expectation of being resigned after a MUTUAL agreement on terms (they tend to be identical to the previous year adjusted for inflation unless somethin drastic happens) 1 year contracts leaves both out in the cold after one year and they need to try to get a contract again. annuals are just renewable.
as for Kespa = the sponsers and stuff. thats part of the problem. They pay for the teams, and thenmake more money than they spend by chargign for rights and stuff. and so they are pretty much making money to advertise. this would be similar to a football stadium paying a company to put the companies name on their stadium. thats just stupid and wrong. they should be sponsering the team for revenue from the advertising and not to make a quick flip with the investment for money. thats not caring for the team/how they are doing at all.
Seriously, what are you talking about? How are they making more money than they spend?! T_____T They are spending more money on the teams than they are going to earn in a hundred years (talking about the money coming from charging the broadcasters for ProLeague). On top of that, they are reinvesting all of it in esports...
Do you actually know how much money they are spending on the teams and how much they're charging for PL? Because you've just pulled an idiotic statement out of your ass, no offence. ;/
On October 18 2010 00:54 StorkHwaiting wrote: Didn't read through the thread responses but does anyone else think this is really fishy? 1 year term before renegotiation?
This sounds like Blizzard/Gretech giving up first year profits in exchange for guaranteeing their right to the IP, then year 2 onwards they can jack up the rate however they like, and Kespa at that point has no legal path other than to accept it.
Well, actually a annual contract and a 1 year contract are different. annual contracts have the expectation of being resigned after a MUTUAL agreement on terms (they tend to be identical to the previous year adjusted for inflation unless somethin drastic happens) 1 year contracts leaves both out in the cold after one year and they need to try to get a contract again. annuals are just renewable.
as for Kespa = the sponsers and stuff. thats part of the problem. They pay for the teams, and thenmake more money than they spend by chargign for rights and stuff. and so they are pretty much making money to advertise. this would be similar to a football stadium paying a company to put the companies name on their stadium. thats just stupid and wrong. they should be sponsering the team for revenue from the advertising and not to make a quick flip with the investment for money. thats not caring for the team/how they are doing at all.
Seriously, what are you talking about? How are they making more money than they spend?! T_____T They are spending more money on the teams than they are going to earn in a hundred years (talking about the money coming from charging the broadcasters for ProLeague). On top of that, they are reinvesting all of it in esports...
Do you actually know how much money they are spending on the teams and how much they're charging for PL? Because you've just pulled an idiotic statement out of your ass, no offence. ;/
Man really, come on. Its not like some dude and his grandma started kespa in order to feed the progamers and they are givin money out of the poor lady's pension. The teams have sponsors, from huge companies. It's like, omg Shinhan or Nate or Korean Air are all such good samaritans, giving money to esports without taking anything back. It's sponsorship man, they get their brand out there to geeks wherever, so now you go buy Sony Ericson and eat pringles chips and feel like a dt pimp, fly with Korean Air and make a debit card at Shinhan Bank. Whatever, their marketing dudes know why they sponsor esports. Probably its profitable, and it gives their brand a good image. The fact that these major players made this Kespa "non profit" organisation that gives food for the progamers to put in their mouth and chew and all they ask in return is only a broadcasting fees, its like Jesus reborn in Korea right ? Wrong, they have them wearing their shirts, and doing their events so its as much sponsorship as anything else. So i dont see why you think there should be this zero sum ecuation, as in Kespa gives all this money to the teams and it should get the same back. No, wrong. The companies within Kespa should sponsor those teams period, if they so wish. If its not in their best interest anymore, or the team is not delivering, or no profit, then by all means, go estro. It's how it happens everywhere else in the world.
On October 18 2010 00:54 StorkHwaiting wrote: Didn't read through the thread responses but does anyone else think this is really fishy? 1 year term before renegotiation?
This sounds like Blizzard/Gretech giving up first year profits in exchange for guaranteeing their right to the IP, then year 2 onwards they can jack up the rate however they like, and Kespa at that point has no legal path other than to accept it.
Well, actually a annual contract and a 1 year contract are different. annual contracts have the expectation of being resigned after a MUTUAL agreement on terms (they tend to be identical to the previous year adjusted for inflation unless somethin drastic happens) 1 year contracts leaves both out in the cold after one year and they need to try to get a contract again. annuals are just renewable.
as for Kespa = the sponsers and stuff. thats part of the problem. They pay for the teams, and thenmake more money than they spend by chargign for rights and stuff. and so they are pretty much making money to advertise. this would be similar to a football stadium paying a company to put the companies name on their stadium. thats just stupid and wrong. they should be sponsering the team for revenue from the advertising and not to make a quick flip with the investment for money. thats not caring for the team/how they are doing at all.
Seriously, what are you talking about? How are they making more money than they spend?! T_____T They are spending more money on the teams than they are going to earn in a hundred years (talking about the money coming from charging the broadcasters for ProLeague). On top of that, they are reinvesting all of it in esports...
Do you actually know how much money they are spending on the teams and how much they're charging for PL? Because you've just pulled an idiotic statement out of your ass, no offence. ;/
Man really, come on. Its not like some dude and his grandma started kespa in order to feed the progamers and they are givin money out of the poor lady's pension. The teams have sponsors, from huge companies. It's like, omg Shinhan or Nate or Korean Air are all such good samaritans, giving money to esports without taking anything back. It's sponsorship man, they get their brand out there to geeks wherever, so now you go buy Sony Ericson and eat pringles chips and feel like a dt pimp, fly with Korean Air and make a debit card at Shinhan Bank. Whatever, their marketing dudes know why they sponsor esports. Probably its profitable, and it gives their brand a good image. The fact that these major players made this Kespa "non profit" organisation that gives food for the progamers to put in their mouth and chew and all they ask in return is only a broadcasting fees, its like Jesus reborn in Korea right ? Wrong, they have them wearing their shirts, and doing their events so its as much sponsorship as anything else. So i dont see why you think there should be this zero sum ecuation, as in Kespa gives all this money to the teams and it should get the same back. No, wrong. The companies within Kespa should sponsor those teams period, if they so wish. If its not in their best interest anymore, or the team is not delivering, or no profit, then by all means, go estro. It's how it happens everywhere else in the world.
You're stating the obvious. Progaming is a marketing venture for KeSPA companies.
Doesn't change the fact that what he said was utter nonesense.
On October 18 2010 07:57 Varth wrote: I was incredibly neutrel to this entire thing, all i did before was watch the broadcasts, but after joining this site and seeing all the arguements in this and the other thread, quite frankly the people arguing for kespa are terrible, 99% of you completly fail in the logic department, and just try to appeal to other fans like yourselves, and dont offer true arguments.
Perfect example is around 8 posts above me, how blizz owns IP rights, and kespa holds IP rights to proleague. PROLEAGUE CAN NOT EXIST WITHOUT STARCRAFT. Starcraft can exist without proleague, the fact is that sc1 proleague requires....... sc1. Wow how crazy, how on earth did i know this..... Because I used logic, and didn't just go OMG SOMETHING MAY THREATEN sc1 pro scene BAD BAD BAD BAD. Well guess what, the entire kespa sc1 thing IS ILLEGAL, period end of story, and you guys havn't even been able to prove that kespa is willing to negotiate in good faith.
I had zero dog in this fight, I don't work for blizzard (and dislike ativision greatly...) or gretech, and really all I did before was enjoy the games. Well done, I wasn't even convinced much by the pro gretech arguements, as I was by the pure uneducated, not well thought out, just plain elementary grade school arguments from pro kespa people on these forums, which really is quite sad because for the most part this site is superior. My view? Purely based upon the arguments from the users on this forum, is that kespa is totally in the wrong over 90% fault on their side, with gretech in the right with 10% fault.
Yup, obviously everything is already laid out black and white and you're the only person that can see it. You're smarter and have more logic than Blizzard, Gretech, Kespa, and all of Korea.
On October 16 2010 15:15 Selith wrote: GomTV said, "The goal is to further increase the size of e-sports, as well as to make it more active through our involvement.
I hate PR -.-
This line is what annoys me most considering its a blatant lie. When did they assert themselves in the position needed to make eSports more active? And how is taking action that threatens the entire existence of the longest running/most successful eSports scenes going to do that either? I really hate them.
On October 18 2010 00:54 StorkHwaiting wrote: Didn't read through the thread responses but does anyone else think this is really fishy? 1 year term before renegotiation?
This sounds like Blizzard/Gretech giving up first year profits in exchange for guaranteeing their right to the IP, then year 2 onwards they can jack up the rate however they like, and Kespa at that point has no legal path other than to accept it.
Well, actually a annual contract and a 1 year contract are different. annual contracts have the expectation of being resigned after a MUTUAL agreement on terms (they tend to be identical to the previous year adjusted for inflation unless somethin drastic happens) 1 year contracts leaves both out in the cold after one year and they need to try to get a contract again. annuals are just renewable.
as for Kespa = the sponsers and stuff. thats part of the problem. They pay for the teams, and thenmake more money than they spend by chargign for rights and stuff. and so they are pretty much making money to advertise. this would be similar to a football stadium paying a company to put the companies name on their stadium. thats just stupid and wrong. they should be sponsering the team for revenue from the advertising and not to make a quick flip with the investment for money. thats not caring for the team/how they are doing at all.
Seriously, what are you talking about? How are they making more money than they spend?! T_____T They are spending more money on the teams than they are going to earn in a hundred years (talking about the money coming from charging the broadcasters for ProLeague). On top of that, they are reinvesting all of it in esports...
Do you actually know how much money they are spending on the teams and how much they're charging for PL? Because you've just pulled an idiotic statement out of your ass, no offence. ;/
they charge 1.5 billion from both MBC and OGN. so 3 billion won is incredibly less than the cost of food+internet+salary for every team? 2.7 million. about 1.8 million of that is salary. and you think that the 50 players eat and use enough electricity annually for over 900000 dollars???
On October 18 2010 00:54 StorkHwaiting wrote: Didn't read through the thread responses but does anyone else think this is really fishy? 1 year term before renegotiation?
This sounds like Blizzard/Gretech giving up first year profits in exchange for guaranteeing their right to the IP, then year 2 onwards they can jack up the rate however they like, and Kespa at that point has no legal path other than to accept it.
Well, actually a annual contract and a 1 year contract are different. annual contracts have the expectation of being resigned after a MUTUAL agreement on terms (they tend to be identical to the previous year adjusted for inflation unless somethin drastic happens) 1 year contracts leaves both out in the cold after one year and they need to try to get a contract again. annuals are just renewable.
as for Kespa = the sponsers and stuff. thats part of the problem. They pay for the teams, and thenmake more money than they spend by chargign for rights and stuff. and so they are pretty much making money to advertise. this would be similar to a football stadium paying a company to put the companies name on their stadium. thats just stupid and wrong. they should be sponsering the team for revenue from the advertising and not to make a quick flip with the investment for money. thats not caring for the team/how they are doing at all.
Seriously, what are you talking about? How are they making more money than they spend?! T_____T They are spending more money on the teams than they are going to earn in a hundred years (talking about the money coming from charging the broadcasters for ProLeague). On top of that, they are reinvesting all of it in esports...
Do you actually know how much money they are spending on the teams and how much they're charging for PL? Because you've just pulled an idiotic statement out of your ass, no offence. ;/
they charge 1.5 billion from both MBC and OGN. so 3 billion won is incredibly less than the cost of food+internet+salary for every team? 2.7 million. about 1.8 million of that is salary. and you think that the 50 players eat and use enough electricity annually for over 900000 dollars???
There was 11 teams with a dozen players in each team. Let's say we have 150 players. That makes 500$ per player per month...What is your point ?
So after reading the last 3 pages, I got my conclusion:
From legal perspective it seems it's a losing battle for KeSPA.
Time is also against KeSPA, with SC2 in scene, and the way it handled as of now, e-Sport will soon be a losing ground for KeSPA.
It's hard to predict the future from what's going on at the moment, will it be good for the e-Sports scene, only time will tell.
In my personal opinion: KeSPA might not be my 100% protagonist here, however I do hope that KeSPA will find a way out of this situation for the good of e-Sports. > by saying this I'm implying that I'm biasing toward KeSPA. IMO for e-Sports to become big and sustain, it needs governing body just like FIFA for football. KeSPA needs to improve obviously, but stripping KeSPA off the scene is wrong.
Read the whole thing and most posts that bugged me have been commented on except for just this:
How is it possible that some people believe that KeSPA actually spends the money they make in the Pro-scene? Even if you say the sponsors/teams/w.e. own the organization, it's hard to believe they actually split the money equally, that is just taken from a dream world, in that case, we wouldn't have teams having better players than others becasue they could easily spend the equally ammount of money they would have to distribute the players. It's like saying FIFA is actually something important to soccer except for regulate and have a say in how things are done.
Every new tourney or league created 'magically' creates a profit to KeSPA and they DO NOT spend a single Won to produce it, surprise: That's what Korean Air, BigFile and many other companies over the years have been doing. KeSPA has a tournament idea, some company puts their money on it and KeSPA gets away with a huge profit. Chances are that money goes directly to the company owners in charge of KeSPA's pockets.
On October 18 2010 15:04 Saklaner wrote: Every new tourney or league created 'magically' creates a profit to KeSPA and they DO NOT spend a single Won to produce it, surprise: That's what Korean Air, BigFile and many other companies over the years have been doing. KeSPA has a tournament idea, some company puts their money on it and KeSPA gets away with a huge profit. Chances are that money goes directly to the company owners in charge of KeSPA's pockets.
Afaik, the Starleagues sponsors provide the prize pools + some expenses like renting the venue for the finals (stage in Shanghai, or plane hangar or whatever). Having a Starleague sponsor by Korean Air doesn't mean that Korean Air is going to supply every single thing the players need.
On October 18 2010 15:04 Saklaner wrote: Every new tourney or league created 'magically' creates a profit to KeSPA and they DO NOT spend a single Won to produce it, surprise: That's what Korean Air, BigFile and many other companies over the years have been doing. KeSPA has a tournament idea, some company puts their money on it and KeSPA gets away with a huge profit. Chances are that money goes directly to the company owners in charge of KeSPA's pockets.
Afaik, the Starleagues sponsors provide the prize pools + some expenses like renting the venue for the finals (stage in Shanghai, or plane hangar or whatever). Having a Starleague sponsor by Korean Air doesn't mean that Korean Air is going to supply every single thing the players need.
What players need is paid by the team sponsors, as someone explained in another post.
On October 18 2010 15:04 Saklaner wrote: Every new tourney or league created 'magically' creates a profit to KeSPA and they DO NOT spend a single Won to produce it, surprise: That's what Korean Air, BigFile and many other companies over the years have been doing. KeSPA has a tournament idea, some company puts their money on it and KeSPA gets away with a huge profit. Chances are that money goes directly to the company owners in charge of KeSPA's pockets.
Afaik, the Starleagues sponsors provide the prize pools + some expenses like renting the venue for the finals (stage in Shanghai, or plane hangar or whatever). Having a Starleague sponsor by Korean Air doesn't mean that Korean Air is going to supply every single thing the players need.
What players need is paid by the team sponsors, as someone explained in another post.
KeSPA = teams + sponsors + officials associated in a non-profit organization.
On October 18 2010 07:57 Varth wrote: I was incredibly neutrel to this entire thing, all i did before was watch the broadcasts, but after joining this site and seeing all the arguements in this and the other thread, quite frankly the people arguing for kespa are terrible, 99% of you completly fail in the logic department, and just try to appeal to other fans like yourselves, and dont offer true arguments.
Perfect example is around 8 posts above me, how blizz owns IP rights, and kespa holds IP rights to proleague. PROLEAGUE CAN NOT EXIST WITHOUT STARCRAFT. Starcraft can exist without proleague, the fact is that sc1 proleague requires....... sc1. Wow how crazy, how on earth did i know this..... Because I used logic, and didn't just go OMG SOMETHING MAY THREATEN sc1 pro scene BAD BAD BAD BAD. Well guess what, the entire kespa sc1 thing IS ILLEGAL, period end of story, and you guys havn't even been able to prove that kespa is willing to negotiate in good faith.
I had zero dog in this fight, I don't work for blizzard (and dislike ativision greatly...) or gretech, and really all I did before was enjoy the games. Well done, I wasn't even convinced much by the pro gretech arguements, as I was by the pure uneducated, not well thought out, just plain elementary grade school arguments from pro kespa people on these forums, which really is quite sad because for the most part this site is superior. My view? Purely based upon the arguments from the users on this forum, is that kespa is totally in the wrong over 90% fault on their side, with gretech in the right with 10% fault.
Varth you fail.
You obviously haven't put enough thought into your argument either.
So by this logic, basketball can't exist without basketballs, therefore, spalding owns the NBA?
Just because pro league can't exist without SC1 doesn't mean blizzard can demand control over the entire operation and how its run, demand control over the pro gamer contracts, they didn't build these things kespa did.
Kespa was willing to pay for licensing to use SC1, thats as far as blizzard's "ip rights" goes. Negotiations broke down as soon as blizzard demanded control of the entire pro scene. Proleague can't exist without sc1? So what? Does that mean Blizzard automatically owns kespa's entire operation? Do they automatically have control of the teams, the leagues and the broadcast operation?
The movie Vanishing Point was centred around the Dodge Challenger, they had to pay licensing to use that car, does that mean Dodge can tell the movie company how the plot goes?
You say you were impartial, but you are another new person to the scene who is obviously pro blizzard. You've sarcastically tried to state that the logic of proleague being unable to exist without SC1 means kespa has to bow down to every single demand. Do you really think you've solved every issue in the legal area of derivative goods?
Basketball argument is pretty flawed dude, because there are plenty of basketball companies out there, there is ONLY ONE starcraft, the only arguement you could use for that kind of thing is saying that kespa can go to a different RTS of some sort. Dodge Challenger arguement kind of works, except that Kespa used the preverbial car before they had permission for years, and now that the preverbial dodge company wants to exert its rights, Vanishing Point (Kespa) is willing to pay what 1/10th of the profits per yer, and nothing else. NOT recognize that its made by dodge (blizzard) they just want to throw a little money gretechs ways and say piss off about everything else. Did I ever say bow down to everything? No, but thanks for reading my mind falsely through the internet, good try. I just said that Kespa needs to negotiate in good faith and recognize gretechs rights, which kespa is obviously violating. I'm pro blizzard in that I love most of their games, I'm generally not in favor of some of the ways they go about business, mainly the activision side of things. Never said I was an expert, I actually pointed out in my post that all my current opinion is based on is the 2 threads in team liquid.
Lastly, thanks for the personal attack and proving that you are incapable of having a rational discussion, well done.
On October 18 2010 17:32 Varth wrote: Basketball argument is pretty flawed dude, because there are plenty of basketball companies out there, there is ONLY ONE starcraft, the only arguement you could use for that kind of thing is saying that kespa can go to a different RTS of some sort. Dodge Challenger arguement kind of works, except that Kespa used the preverbial car before they had permission for years, and now that the preverbial dodge company wants to exert its rights, Vanishing Point (Kespa) is willing to pay what 1/10th of the profits per yer, and nothing else. NOT recognize that its made by dodge (blizzard) they just want to throw a little money gretechs ways and say piss off about everything else. Did I ever say bow down to everything? No, but thanks for reading my mind falsely through the internet, good try. I just said that Kespa needs to negotiate in good faith and recognize gretechs rights, which kespa is obviously violating. I'm pro blizzard in that I love most of their games, I'm generally not in favor of some of the ways they go about business, mainly the activision side of things. Never said I was an expert, I actually pointed out in my post that all my current opinion is based on is the 2 threads in team liquid.
Lastly, thanks for the personal attack and proving that you are incapable of having a rational discussion, well done.
If you are not saying KeSPA should bow down to everything, what should it bow down to and what not? Would a "Blizzard" logo on every PL/OSL/MSL scoreboard suffice? Or should Blizzard have a say over the sponsors, replays, broadcasts, players and teams, also schedules?
On October 18 2010 00:54 StorkHwaiting wrote: Didn't read through the thread responses but does anyone else think this is really fishy? 1 year term before renegotiation?
This sounds like Blizzard/Gretech giving up first year profits in exchange for guaranteeing their right to the IP, then year 2 onwards they can jack up the rate however they like, and Kespa at that point has no legal path other than to accept it.
Well, actually a annual contract and a 1 year contract are different. annual contracts have the expectation of being resigned after a MUTUAL agreement on terms (they tend to be identical to the previous year adjusted for inflation unless somethin drastic happens) 1 year contracts leaves both out in the cold after one year and they need to try to get a contract again. annuals are just renewable.
as for Kespa = the sponsers and stuff. thats part of the problem. They pay for the teams, and thenmake more money than they spend by chargign for rights and stuff. and so they are pretty much making money to advertise. this would be similar to a football stadium paying a company to put the companies name on their stadium. thats just stupid and wrong. they should be sponsering the team for revenue from the advertising and not to make a quick flip with the investment for money. thats not caring for the team/how they are doing at all.
Seriously, what are you talking about? How are they making more money than they spend?! T_____T They are spending more money on the teams than they are going to earn in a hundred years (talking about the money coming from charging the broadcasters for ProLeague). On top of that, they are reinvesting all of it in esports...
Do you actually know how much money they are spending on the teams and how much they're charging for PL? Because you've just pulled an idiotic statement out of your ass, no offence. ;/
they charge 1.5 billion from both MBC and OGN. so 3 billion won is incredibly less than the cost of food+internet+salary for every team? 2.7 million. about 1.8 million of that is salary. and you think that the 50 players eat and use enough electricity annually for over 900000 dollars???
Apparently I remembered it wrong. The costs of running a team like CJ are ~20 million dollars:
"Sean Oh manages the team, which he says costs the conglomerate $20m (£10m) a year."
Using the money they're charging for PL is enough to sustain 1/13 of CJ. There were 10 other teams before eSTRO disbanded and Hite merged with CJ. I'm sure that SKT, KT and WeMade spent at least that much. The costs of running other teams may have been lower, but were still much bigger than anything KeSPA could potentially earn from the broadcasting rights. On top of that, they claim to be reinvesting every profit they make from esports back into esports (see the list I made), and I have no reason not to believe them.
If you think KeSPA cares about the pennies they're making from the broadcasting rights (other than how they can make a use of them to help esports grow), then you have to be out of your mind.
On October 18 2010 10:05 PrinceXizor wrote: they charge 1.5 billion from both MBC and OGN. so 3 billion won is incredibly less than the cost of food+internet+salary for every team? 2.7 million. about 1.8 million of that is salary. and you think that the 50 players eat and use enough electricity annually for over 900000 dollars???
Huh? Afaik, Kespa sold the rights to IEG for 1.7b won for 3 years. IEG then wanted to sell those rights to OGN/MBC for 250m per year from each, for a total of 1.5b over the 3 years, and money from the VOD sales. They did not come to an agreement with these terms. The government stepped in and the new terms are a mystery. Fast forward 3 years and the "rights" that IEG bought wore off and they disbanded Estro. If nothing else, it kept Estro around. Does anyone even know for a fact if they are selling these rights anymore, and before that, were they selling the rights pre-2007?
Do keep in mind that they live in Seoul, one of the most expensive cities in the world to live in, so their electricity and food costs more too. Besides, food and electricity aren't the only things to spend money on. There are coaches, the manager, the helper lady (cooks for them), drivers, makeup artists, the rent and/or land property tax*, other utilities bills (water, gas, etc.), some of them have physical trainers, furnishings, computers and replacements, and a ton of other stuff that adds up when you live in a "house" with 10+ other young males. SKT alone had like 25+ players.
* Does anyone know if the team owners actually own the buildings the teams live in? For example, WeMade uses the building their teams live in also as an office for its other employees, but do they own the building?
And salary? Does your version of salary include benefits? Health examinations, eye examinations, medicine, etc? Do they pay directly to the specialists or do they have some sort of health insurance? Do the companies pay for other insurance? Retirement funds? Does anyone know if these corporate teams even have benefits for the players?! Maybe only some?
Obviously Kespa as an organization doesn't directly spend money on teams like that; the team owners do, but it's very silly to think they only spend money on food and electricity.
On October 18 2010 17:32 Varth wrote: Basketball argument is pretty flawed dude, because there are plenty of basketball companies out there, there is ONLY ONE starcraft, the only arguement you could use for that kind of thing is saying that kespa can go to a different RTS of some sort. Dodge Challenger arguement kind of works, except that Kespa used the preverbial car before they had permission for years, and now that the preverbial dodge company wants to exert its rights, Vanishing Point (Kespa) is willing to pay what 1/10th of the profits per yer, and nothing else. NOT recognize that its made by dodge (blizzard) they just want to throw a little money gretechs ways and say piss off about everything else. Did I ever say bow down to everything? No, but thanks for reading my mind falsely through the internet, good try. I just said that Kespa needs to negotiate in good faith and recognize gretechs rights, which kespa is obviously violating. I'm pro blizzard in that I love most of their games, I'm generally not in favor of some of the ways they go about business, mainly the activision side of things. Never said I was an expert, I actually pointed out in my post that all my current opinion is based on is the 2 threads in team liquid.
Lastly, thanks for the personal attack and proving that you are incapable of having a rational discussion, well done.
Stop pulling bullshit statements like that out of your ass... KeSPA is not making any profit off of esports. Anything they directly gain from it, they reinvest back into the scene(s). That means that money going to a useless middleman (gretech) = less money invested into esports.
This just shows how twisted their statement is: "The goal is to further increase the size of e-sports, as well as to make it more active through our involvement." ...
On top of that, they are already investing infinitely more into esports than they can directly gain from charging for broadcasting rights. Esports is a marketing venture - they are SPENDING, NOT EARNING money...
On October 18 2010 22:24 snowdrift wrote: I salute your persistence, maybenexttime. It's sad that the same things have to be repeated over and over again.
Hehe, thanks. Years of practice - I've participated in nearly every thread discussing religion on WCReplays, this is nothing.
Blizzard/Gretech and KeSPA see things differently, especially the future of e-sports.
Blizzard/Gretech would like the game to be accessible to anyone, thus Blizzard tried to make skill gap is closer and closer with SC2. In SC1, even after numbers of playing, the skill gap is huge. Gom statement that they don't want to create league game and keeping the open tournament format only confirming this. With open tournament format, everyone can enter the tournament, making new faces appearance more possible, and regeneration (or I prefer to call it turnover) rate higher. This might be great for the audience in short term at least, but this won't allow player sustainability. With Proleague or other league system in Korea, player can sustain playing, and can work as a gamer > playing/practicing 8hrs+ / day > making crazy performance.
KeSPA however imperfect they are, so far they were able to keep this proleague and most importantly players to be sustainable. Since their system allowed more players to enter professionally (11 team with 15+ players per team). I doubt open tournament system will allow players to sustain themselves professionally. True that players can get sponsors etc, but I doubt it can reach the durability and longevity of what their big brothers did (SC1) during the last 12 years. And IMO with KeSPA system, players is more protected the way I see it, they can have benefit (just like normal employee) such as insurance and other.
Back to my previous analogy, FIFA is also not a perfect body, but here they are Perhaps English football scene is a more appropriate analogy for Korean BW e-Sports scene, and Shinhan Proleague is the Barclays Premier League, KeSPA is the English Football Association (FA), and Blizzard is .... who is blizzard?? .. lol. This analogy will be perfect if not for the IP things.
If i see the pictures correctly then here what I think what will/should happen next:
1. KeSPA HWAITINGGG!!! (assuming they have at least some intention to protect pro players)
2. Blizzard/Gretech marched on > with GSL + SC2 popularity on the rise, they don't even need to proceed with law suit. SPL (Proleague) will have lower and lower ratings, so it will die by itself.
3. SC1 ceased to have a big sponsorships. Thus forcing majority of the teams (and their governing bodies) to take SC2 pill. Since Blizzard already forced IP in SC2 since the very beginning, it means that anybody must bow to Blizzard/Gretech if they want a piece of SC2.
4. KeSPA or more likely Korean Government will force pro player to have employee contract protection.
And as this happen the new era of e-sports is happening.
..
Call me pessimist, but that's what I think based on what's happening now.
I do hope that SC1 can go side by side with SC2, as by all means SC1 is really a good game for pro scene. I will feel so sad if SC1 dies, all SC1 players, MBC Hero and SK T1 in particular.
..
Only time will tell, e-sports I believe will still be there, however will it give more benefit to the players? or not ...
On October 16 2010 15:21 LunarC wrote: One won? Why not include tournament and broadcasting rights under the same fee..
Because they are saying they don't care how many types of tournaments they run, but do care about who runs a broadcast over television.
They want to renegotiate every year as to insure that whatever fees in place are appropriate to how big or small the esport scene has become.
This is my GUESS (not in anyway a statement of facts) but Kespa doesn't like this, because it somewhat undermines them quite heavily, since the networks would find themselves paying Kespa for the product and Gretech for the licensing. Driving a wedge between the two.
I can't see this staying out of courts going on the history. =( Could be wrong, but even if it stays out, the damage is mostly done.
On October 18 2010 17:32 Varth wrote: Basketball argument is pretty flawed dude, because there are plenty of basketball companies out there, there is ONLY ONE starcraft, the only arguement you could use for that kind of thing is saying that kespa can go to a different RTS of some sort. Dodge Challenger arguement kind of works, except that Kespa used the preverbial car before they had permission for years, and now that the preverbial dodge company wants to exert its rights, Vanishing Point (Kespa) is willing to pay what 1/10th of the profits per yer, and nothing else. NOT recognize that its made by dodge (blizzard) they just want to throw a little money gretechs ways and say piss off about everything else. Did I ever say bow down to everything? No, but thanks for reading my mind falsely through the internet, good try. I just said that Kespa needs to negotiate in good faith and recognize gretechs rights, which kespa is obviously violating. I'm pro blizzard in that I love most of their games, I'm generally not in favor of some of the ways they go about business, mainly the activision side of things. Never said I was an expert, I actually pointed out in my post that all my current opinion is based on is the 2 threads in team liquid.
Lastly, thanks for the personal attack and proving that you are incapable of having a rational discussion, well done.
My favorite part of this is that you quote in bold about being personally attacked when your first statement, even before you began your argument, was an attack saying that Kespa supporters lack logic.
Is Kespa going to agree with this? well it depends how they see themselves. If they see themselves as the FIFA of Starcraft than no way you'd ever agree to pay other people lol, just imagine. But if they see themselves as an organisation of companies who are into marketing their products via esports, then they'll probably pay up.
I still don't think IP rights should go that far. It is one of those EULA things companies have come up with in recent years: you don't own games, you license them. But it makes me wonder... Some years ago there was this show on english telly and they'd replay famous war battles of years past using one of the old Total War games. Did they pay to use that game for their show? did they have to if Creative Assembly (developer) had demanded it?
On October 18 2010 15:04 Saklaner wrote: Every new tourney or league created 'magically' creates a profit to KeSPA and they DO NOT spend a single Won to produce it, surprise: That's what Korean Air, BigFile and many other companies over the years have been doing. KeSPA has a tournament idea, some company puts their money on it and KeSPA gets away with a huge profit. Chances are that money goes directly to the company owners in charge of KeSPA's pockets.
Afaik, the Starleagues sponsors provide the prize pools + some expenses like renting the venue for the finals (stage in Shanghai, or plane hangar or whatever). Having a Starleague sponsor by Korean Air doesn't mean that Korean Air is going to supply every single thing the players need.
What players need is paid by the team sponsors, as someone explained in another post.
KeSPA = teams + sponsors + officials associated in a non-profit organization.
Do not quote me if you won't read my whole post. tyvm.
On October 18 2010 15:04 Saklaner wrote: Every new tourney or league created 'magically' creates a profit to KeSPA and they DO NOT spend a single Won to produce it, surprise: That's what Korean Air, BigFile and many other companies over the years have been doing. KeSPA has a tournament idea, some company puts their money on it and KeSPA gets away with a huge profit. Chances are that money goes directly to the company owners in charge of KeSPA's pockets.
Afaik, the Starleagues sponsors provide the prize pools + some expenses like renting the venue for the finals (stage in Shanghai, or plane hangar or whatever). Having a Starleague sponsor by Korean Air doesn't mean that Korean Air is going to supply every single thing the players need.
What players need is paid by the team sponsors, as someone explained in another post.
KeSPA = teams + sponsors + officials associated in a non-profit organization.
Do not quote me if you won't read my whole post. tyvm.
It's obvious you have no idea what you're talking about.Out of all the sponsors, you mentioned Korean Air and Bigfile. Well, guess what, KeSPA never charged for neither OSL nor MSL.
Not to mention the fact that the money generated by the leagues are pennies compared to what KeSPA spends on esports, and they reinvest all of that back into esports. Also KeSPA does spend money on the leagues (let's ignore that fact that OGN and MBC are in fact KeSPA members) - music performances (PL finals, etc.), new maps, referees, renting stadium/beach/whatever during the post-season, and so on.
On October 18 2010 15:04 Saklaner wrote: Every new tourney or league created 'magically' creates a profit to KeSPA and they DO NOT spend a single Won to produce it, surprise: That's what Korean Air, BigFile and many other companies over the years have been doing. KeSPA has a tournament idea, some company puts their money on it and KeSPA gets away with a huge profit. Chances are that money goes directly to the company owners in charge of KeSPA's pockets.
Afaik, the Starleagues sponsors provide the prize pools + some expenses like renting the venue for the finals (stage in Shanghai, or plane hangar or whatever). Having a Starleague sponsor by Korean Air doesn't mean that Korean Air is going to supply every single thing the players need.
What players need is paid by the team sponsors, as someone explained in another post.
KeSPA = teams + sponsors + officials associated in a non-profit organization.
Do not quote me if you won't read my whole post. tyvm.
It's obvious you have no idea what you're talking about.Out of all the sponsors, you mentioned Korean Air and Bigfile. Well, guess what, KeSPA never charged for neither OSL nor MSL.
Not to mention the fact that the money generated by the leagues are pennies compared to what KeSPA spends on esports, and they reinvest all of that back into esports. Also KeSPA does spend money on the leagues (let's ignore that fact that OGN and MBC are in fact KeSPA members) - music performances (PL finals, etc.), new maps, referees, renting stadium/beach/whatever during the post-season, and so on.
;]
Thanks mate, I didn't know how I should reply to him. I was trying to refrain myself from insulting him, then I saw your post. You have a lot of patience and dedication
Someone saying an entire group of people fail in logic, really isnt very comparable to calling a specific person a "fucking idiot". was my statement fairly negative? Yeah I'd somewhat agree, but mostly because I was frustrated at the lack of content (admittedly not all your fault since we dont know many details) but many were able to construct well thought out posts without said information on the gretech side.
If I'm mistaken and there were a few well thought out posts from kespa people I would appreciate a link of somesort, because so far ive been unable to find one. I was kind of hoping that my post would challenge you guys in making more well thought out posts, or actually making an effort of proving me wrong instead of just blasting from the hip about your feelings. Do those posts have their place, sure, but I was expecting something a little more rational somewhere in there.
On October 20 2010 22:30 Varth wrote: Someone saying an entire group of people fail in logic, really isnt very comparable to calling a specific person a "fucking idiot". was my statement fairly negative? Yeah I'd somewhat agree, but mostly because I was frustrated at the lack of content (admittedly not all your fault since we dont know many details) but many were able to construct well thought out posts without said information on the gretech side.
If I'm mistaken and there were a few well thought out posts from kespa people I would appreciate a link of somesort, because so far ive been unable to find one. I was kind of hoping that my post would challenge you guys in making more well thought out posts, or actually making an effort of proving me wrong instead of just blasting from the hip about your feelings. Do those posts have their place, sure, but I was expecting something a little more rational somewhere in there.
EPT
