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On October 17 2010 06:08 Lokian wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2010 05:31 maybenexttime wrote:On October 17 2010 04:10 s3raph wrote:On October 17 2010 03:57 maybenexttime wrote:On October 17 2010 03:42 Selith wrote:
It's because Koreans are very well aware of everything KeSPA has done since SK took it over. This is not the first time BW e-sports scene almost got shut down in Korea. More like Koreans have been spoiled for years. Foreigners wish they had such an "evil" organisation take care of esports in their countries. How can you judge that Koreans don't 'know what they are talking about?' I'm really not sure where this comment is coming from, other than a display of personal bias against people who dislike KeSPA for whatever reason. If South Koreans, a population that has the most direct contact with the organizations involved, that does not have to deal with a language barrier for press releases, and is directly impacted by the eSports industry trends are just 'spoiled' (with the implied 'don't know what they are talking about) and don't have a right to judge, who does? People confuse me. --;; I'm not judging anyone. I'm stating a fact - Koreans have been used to (i.e. spoiled) having a progaming scene for a decade, esport being around is a natural state of things to them, that it's a part of their culture. It's easy for them to complain about KeSPA and their wrong doing (those are valid reasons). They don't give KeSPA enough credit for what it has done. They never stop and think how much more developed Korean esports scene is thanks to KeSPA compared to other countries. And we can go over what KeSPA has done again and again. Koreans knows what KeSPA has done best, don't they?
It's sort of like Stockholm syndrome. The kidnapee knows whats going on most because they were there but they might not necessarily form the right opinion. Just because they know what they've done doesn't necessarily make them the best people to criticize the organization.
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On October 17 2010 07:14 Ropid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2010 05:31 maybenexttime wrote:On October 17 2010 04:10 s3raph wrote:On October 17 2010 03:57 maybenexttime wrote:On October 17 2010 03:42 Selith wrote:
It's because Koreans are very well aware of everything KeSPA has done since SK took it over. This is not the first time BW e-sports scene almost got shut down in Korea. More like Koreans have been spoiled for years. Foreigners wish they had such an "evil" organisation take care of esports in their countries. How can you judge that Koreans don't 'know what they are talking about?' I'm really not sure where this comment is coming from, other than a display of personal bias against people who dislike KeSPA for whatever reason. If South Koreans, a population that has the most direct contact with the organizations involved, that does not have to deal with a language barrier for press releases, and is directly impacted by the eSports industry trends are just 'spoiled' (with the implied 'don't know what they are talking about) and don't have a right to judge, who does? People confuse me. --;; I'm not judging anyone. I'm stating a fact - Koreans have been used to (i.e. spoiled) having a progaming scene for a decade, esport being around is a natural state of things to them, that it's a part of their culture. It's easy for them to complain about KeSPA and their wrong doing (those are valid reasons). They don't give KeSPA enough credit for what it has done. They never stop and think how much more developed Korean esports scene is thanks to KeSPA compared to other countries. It's more developed compared to other countries, because in Korea somehow event halls get filled by fans and gamers have fangirls. KeSPA came after that.
Same for China, your point?
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On October 17 2010 07:26 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2010 07:14 Ropid wrote:On October 17 2010 05:31 maybenexttime wrote:On October 17 2010 04:10 s3raph wrote:On October 17 2010 03:57 maybenexttime wrote:On October 17 2010 03:42 Selith wrote:
It's because Koreans are very well aware of everything KeSPA has done since SK took it over. This is not the first time BW e-sports scene almost got shut down in Korea. More like Koreans have been spoiled for years. Foreigners wish they had such an "evil" organisation take care of esports in their countries. How can you judge that Koreans don't 'know what they are talking about?' I'm really not sure where this comment is coming from, other than a display of personal bias against people who dislike KeSPA for whatever reason. If South Koreans, a population that has the most direct contact with the organizations involved, that does not have to deal with a language barrier for press releases, and is directly impacted by the eSports industry trends are just 'spoiled' (with the implied 'don't know what they are talking about) and don't have a right to judge, who does? People confuse me. --;; I'm not judging anyone. I'm stating a fact - Koreans have been used to (i.e. spoiled) having a progaming scene for a decade, esport being around is a natural state of things to them, that it's a part of their culture. It's easy for them to complain about KeSPA and their wrong doing (those are valid reasons). They don't give KeSPA enough credit for what it has done. They never stop and think how much more developed Korean esports scene is thanks to KeSPA compared to other countries. It's more developed compared to other countries, because in Korea somehow event halls get filled by fans and gamers have fangirls. KeSPA came after that. Same for China, your point?
My point is, teams and sponsors and progamers and TV broadcasting of games all came before KeSPA. So a comparison of the progaming situation of for example Europe to a Korea without KeSPA, doesn't make sense.
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On October 17 2010 07:47 Ropid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2010 07:26 maybenexttime wrote:On October 17 2010 07:14 Ropid wrote:On October 17 2010 05:31 maybenexttime wrote:On October 17 2010 04:10 s3raph wrote:On October 17 2010 03:57 maybenexttime wrote:On October 17 2010 03:42 Selith wrote:
It's because Koreans are very well aware of everything KeSPA has done since SK took it over. This is not the first time BW e-sports scene almost got shut down in Korea. More like Koreans have been spoiled for years. Foreigners wish they had such an "evil" organisation take care of esports in their countries. How can you judge that Koreans don't 'know what they are talking about?' I'm really not sure where this comment is coming from, other than a display of personal bias against people who dislike KeSPA for whatever reason. If South Koreans, a population that has the most direct contact with the organizations involved, that does not have to deal with a language barrier for press releases, and is directly impacted by the eSports industry trends are just 'spoiled' (with the implied 'don't know what they are talking about) and don't have a right to judge, who does? People confuse me. --;; I'm not judging anyone. I'm stating a fact - Koreans have been used to (i.e. spoiled) having a progaming scene for a decade, esport being around is a natural state of things to them, that it's a part of their culture. It's easy for them to complain about KeSPA and their wrong doing (those are valid reasons). They don't give KeSPA enough credit for what it has done. They never stop and think how much more developed Korean esports scene is thanks to KeSPA compared to other countries. It's more developed compared to other countries, because in Korea somehow event halls get filled by fans and gamers have fangirls. KeSPA came after that. Same for China, your point? My point is, teams and sponsors and progamers and TV broadcasting of games all came before KeSPA. So a comparison of the progaming situation of for example Europe to a Korea without KeSPA, doesn't make sense.
Can't you read? ;o I compared it to China, not Europe... China has all of that, yet it's not even half as advanced in terms of esports. Explain that.
Also when people talk about KeSPA, that includes the time when those parties (mainly sponsors and TV broadcasters) weren't called "KeSPA" yet. The fact is that the companies that currently consitute KeSPA (as well as those that already left it for various reasons) have done a lot for esports in Korea. Doesn't matter if they were called "KeSPA" at that time. It's completely irrelevant...
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On October 17 2010 07:14 Ropid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2010 05:31 maybenexttime wrote:On October 17 2010 04:10 s3raph wrote:On October 17 2010 03:57 maybenexttime wrote:On October 17 2010 03:42 Selith wrote:
It's because Koreans are very well aware of everything KeSPA has done since SK took it over. This is not the first time BW e-sports scene almost got shut down in Korea. More like Koreans have been spoiled for years. Foreigners wish they had such an "evil" organisation take care of esports in their countries. How can you judge that Koreans don't 'know what they are talking about?' I'm really not sure where this comment is coming from, other than a display of personal bias against people who dislike KeSPA for whatever reason. If South Koreans, a population that has the most direct contact with the organizations involved, that does not have to deal with a language barrier for press releases, and is directly impacted by the eSports industry trends are just 'spoiled' (with the implied 'don't know what they are talking about) and don't have a right to judge, who does? People confuse me. --;; I'm not judging anyone. I'm stating a fact - Koreans have been used to (i.e. spoiled) having a progaming scene for a decade, esport being around is a natural state of things to them, that it's a part of their culture. It's easy for them to complain about KeSPA and their wrong doing (those are valid reasons). They don't give KeSPA enough credit for what it has done. They never stop and think how much more developed Korean esports scene is thanks to KeSPA compared to other countries. It's more developed compared to other countries, because in Korea somehow event halls get filled by fans and gamers have fangirls. KeSPA came after that.
That's not a valid point, China has much much more fans who will go to a big tournament than any country. But instead, Chinese e-sports scene is still semi-pro, like in Europe and US. The difference are KeSPA and government's support. KeSPA's contribution is huge.
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Meh... my point still is, the difference between Korea and China is because one is Korea and the other is not Korea. So China has the same as Korea: Teams, Gamers, Fans, TV broadcasts though is still not "pro". Profiteers organized themselves in Korea. Who knows why this doesn't happen in China.
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Just because Korea has an e-Sports scene that developed further than everyone else does not make Korean's "spoiled" for supporting the idea of protecting rights. Maybe you feel that KeSPA's existence should allow them to do whatever they want, but the Korean community who knows and has to deal with them a hell of a lot more than you do disagrees. I don't doubt that they know KeSPA has contributed to society, but that doesn't make them auto-immune to rules and public opinion. That kind of logic is flawed, ignorant and very scary.
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On October 17 2010 08:34 Ropid wrote:
Meh... my point still is, the difference between Korea and China is because one is Korea and the other is not Korea. So China has the same as Korea: Teams, Gamers, Fans, TV broadcasts though is still not "pro". Profiteers organized themselves in Korea. Who knows why this doesn't happen in China.
Exactly, profiteers organized themselves and formed KeSPA! That's what makes the difference between China and Korea - KeSPA.
On October 17 2010 08:39 xBillehx wrote:
Just because Korea has an e-Sports scene that developed further than everyone else does not make Korean's "spoiled" for supporting the idea of protecting rights. Maybe you feel that KeSPA's existence should allow them to do whatever they want, but the Korean community who knows and has to deal with them a hell of a lot more than you do disagrees. I don't doubt that they know KeSPA has contributed to society, but that doesn't make them auto-immune to rules and public opinion. That kind of logic is flawed, ignorant and very scary.
No, I do not feel that KeSPA's ecistence allows them to do whatever they want. If you read my post, you'd know that. ;; I already said KeSPA has done a lot of bad things. But the fact is, the good they have done far outweighs their wrong doing. The reason why Koreans mostly side with Gretech is because they take whatever good KeSPA has done to the esports scene for granted, but at the same time they jump on a KeSPA hate bandwagon everytime they screw up.
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I love how in this thread, people say "koreans like kespa and gretech is wrong" using korean opinion as justification and evidence, and then others come in and correct them, that koreans actually vastly oppose kespa, and then korean opinion is just dismissed since they no longer agree with the anti-gretech side.
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On October 16 2010 15:15 Selith wrote:
First is the fees. GomTV stated, 'Each tournaments will cost 1 won (ed. That's not a mistranslation, it really said 1 won), and broadcasting fee is 100 million won'.
What exactly does this mean? Would Korean Air OSL be considered a different "tournament" from Korean Air OSL2, or does it all fall under the OSL umbrella?
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On October 17 2010 07:16 dcberkeley wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2010 06:08 Lokian wrote:On October 17 2010 05:31 maybenexttime wrote:On October 17 2010 04:10 s3raph wrote:On October 17 2010 03:57 maybenexttime wrote:On October 17 2010 03:42 Selith wrote:
It's because Koreans are very well aware of everything KeSPA has done since SK took it over. This is not the first time BW e-sports scene almost got shut down in Korea. More like Koreans have been spoiled for years. Foreigners wish they had such an "evil" organisation take care of esports in their countries. How can you judge that Koreans don't 'know what they are talking about?' I'm really not sure where this comment is coming from, other than a display of personal bias against people who dislike KeSPA for whatever reason. If South Koreans, a population that has the most direct contact with the organizations involved, that does not have to deal with a language barrier for press releases, and is directly impacted by the eSports industry trends are just 'spoiled' (with the implied 'don't know what they are talking about) and don't have a right to judge, who does? People confuse me. --;; I'm not judging anyone. I'm stating a fact - Koreans have been used to (i.e. spoiled) having a progaming scene for a decade, esport being around is a natural state of things to them, that it's a part of their culture. It's easy for them to complain about KeSPA and their wrong doing (those are valid reasons). They don't give KeSPA enough credit for what it has done. They never stop and think how much more developed Korean esports scene is thanks to KeSPA compared to other countries. And we can go over what KeSPA has done again and again. Koreans knows what KeSPA has done best, don't they? It's sort of like Stockholm syndrome. The kidnapee knows whats going on most because they were there but they might not necessarily form the right opinion. Just because they know what they've done doesn't necessarily make them the best people to criticize the organization.
Really now... The victims here are the fans. They're not getting their BW and as BW fans, of course they're going to want BW back at any cost, even the easiest conservative way out will do. That's basically the foriegn community, as all they could do was watch from afar. KeSPA and Gretech are not really a part of their nation so why should they care for anything else than getting BW back.
And I'm just saying from the analogy that is brought up... The kidnapee are the BW fans. They can't form a good opinion toward everything that has happen, whereas a person from outside the scene will only view this situation in business terms. KeSPA broke the law, and this is the consequence of their actions.
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On October 17 2010 05:31 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2010 04:10 s3raph wrote:On October 17 2010 03:57 maybenexttime wrote:On October 17 2010 03:42 Selith wrote:
It's because Koreans are very well aware of everything KeSPA has done since SK took it over. This is not the first time BW e-sports scene almost got shut down in Korea. More like Koreans have been spoiled for years. Foreigners wish they had such an "evil" organisation take care of esports in their countries. How can you judge that Koreans don't 'know what they are talking about?' I'm really not sure where this comment is coming from, other than a display of personal bias against people who dislike KeSPA for whatever reason. If South Koreans, a population that has the most direct contact with the organizations involved, that does not have to deal with a language barrier for press releases, and is directly impacted by the eSports industry trends are just 'spoiled' (with the implied 'don't know what they are talking about) and don't have a right to judge, who does? People confuse me. --;; I'm not judging anyone. I'm stating a fact - Koreans have been used to (i.e. spoiled) having a progaming scene for a decade, esport being around is a natural state of things to them, that it's a part of their culture. It's easy for them to complain about KeSPA and their wrong doing (those are valid reasons). They don't give KeSPA enough credit for what it has done. They never stop and think how much more developed Korean esports scene is thanks to KeSPA compared to other countries.
KeSPA has done good things in the past, but that doesn't give them the honorary ownership of the E-Sport scene. They should be judged on their current performance and trying to IMPROVE E-sports, otherwise a young and up and comer like Gretech will put it out of it's number 1 position. That's economics and game theory.
Monopolies are not good for ANYONE (except for KeSPA).
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United States238 Posts
On October 17 2010 08:55 maybenexttime wrote:
No, I do not feel that KeSPA's ecistence allows them to do whatever they want. If you read my post, you'd know that. ;; I already said KeSPA has done a lot of bad things. But the fact is, the good they have done far outweighs their wrong doing. The reason why Koreans mostly side with Gretech is because they take whatever good KeSPA has done to the esports scene for granted, but at the same time they jump on a KeSPA hate bandwagon everytime they screw up.
KeSPA did good when the original chairman (who was in the game biz before) was in power.
After SK took over (instituting a chairman that had no idea about the game biz), they almost killed BW proscene once because they wanted 1.7 trillion won from IEG, and 500 million won from both broadcasters each as broadcasting fee. They also said they reserved full rights to broadcasting and products made through it.
Right now, they are pushing for a law in which, it would give KeSPA full control over the intellectual property of games (whether it's foreign or domestic-made) that will be involved in e-sports.
Whatever good they did post-SK chairman does not make up for what they are doing.
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this Gretech deal looks really bad. The 100 million Won is about $100k USD, which is not a problem.
the biggest problem is 50/50 ownership of produced content. this opens up a legal blackhole since neither party owns a majority. the arrangement also means Gretech as veto power over any matters over televised SC:BW matches and related products.
i think Gretech really failed at offering a sustainable eSport agreement. no one will partner with them unless their ability to veto is contractually limited.
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KeSPA is E-Sports in Korea, don't be fooled by Gretech's lies. KeSPA has done well providing BW to their fans. If Gretech has any confidence in winning the lawsuit they've been flaunting all this time they would have sued KeSPA already. This statement clearly shows Gretech is bluffing, now trying to get KeSPA to sign the paper by backing up a few steps and offering "reasonable" conditions, and if KeSPA does sign it Gretech can easily deny us BW when the contract expires. KeSPA will have to force start PL again but the difference is that Gretech will have a case by saying KeSPA acknowledged IP rights before.
For the future of BW, do not sign the soul of BW away KeSPA!
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United States7481 Posts
simply WOW @ KeSPA apologists. i realize you guys love bw (i do too) so you think you love kespa since they're associated with bw, but they aren't jesus like you seem to think.
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1 sentence summary of this article:
1 won for the tournament, 100mil won for broadcasting fee was what Gretech offered, KeSPA reject this offer.
I see why KeSPA did not wanted to take Gretech's offer.
KeSPA used to charge broadcasters for broadcasting Proleague, which i believe is like 700mil won. If they take Gretech's offer, they won't make money like they used to since this offer will not grant total broadcasting right to KeSPA. That's why they offered 300mil to Gretech so they can have all the broadcasting right and make 700mil from each broadcasters.
Also, this article is not about Gretech getting pwned by KeSPA. Gretech already announced that they won't discuss with KeSPA anymore and will file lawsuit if KeSPA forced to open Proleague illegally. I believe that Gretech announced this to cover up before they stop Proleague forcibly.
If KeSPA really wanted to devote for the SC1 scene and SC1 fans, they should have made agreement with Blizzard in first hand. But, they kept denying IP right, making huge money off charging broadcasters for 10 years, even though they didn't even have a license, and try to cover up all these bs by announcing "SC1 is public good", which is not even true. This is why most of Korean SC fans, even SC1 fans, hate KeSPA; KeSPA wants to make money off SC1 and that's all.
P.S. I do not want the SC1 scene to die either. Don't misunderstand me. I just hate KeSPA being super idiot.
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On October 17 2010 11:18 lakeness wrote:
1 sentence summary of this article:
1 won for the tournament, 100mil won for broadcasting fee was what Gretech offered, KeSPA reject this offer.
I see why KeSPA did not wanted to take Gretech's offer.
KeSPA used to charge broadcasters for broadcasting Proleague, which i believe is like 700mil won. If they take Gretech's offer, they won't make money like they used to since this offer will not grant total broadcasting right to KeSPA. That's why they offered 300mil to Gretech so they can have all the broadcasting right and make 700mil from each broadcasters.
Also, this article is not about Gretech getting pwned by KeSPA. Gretech already announced that they won't discuss with KeSPA anymore and will file lawsuit if KeSPA forced to open Proleague illegally. I believe that Gretech announced this to cover up before they stop Proleague forcibly.
If KeSPA really wanted to devote for the SC1 scene and SC1 fans, they should have made agreement with Blizzard in first hand. But, they kept denying IP right, making huge money off charging broadcasters for 10 years, even though they didn't even have a license, and try to cover up all these bs by announcing "SC1 is public good", which is not even true. This is why most of Korean SC fans, even SC1 fans, hate KeSPA; KeSPA wants to make money off SC1 and that's all.
P.S. I do not want the SC1 scene to die either. Don't misunderstand me. I just hate KeSPA being super idiot.
Even though people say KeSPA is violating the IP rights, I still don't believe the so called IP rights from GreTech. Why is KeSPA willing to pay something to broadcast, it is not to acknowledge the IP rights of GreTech, they are just trying to avoid the lawsuit.
Now negotiation is broken down, I hope this goes to court, then we can see how much is this IP right thing from Blizzard really worth. I believe it is not worth as much as Blizzard claimed to be.
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On October 17 2010 11:26 hydraden wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2010 11:18 lakeness wrote:
1 sentence summary of this article:
1 won for the tournament, 100mil won for broadcasting fee was what Gretech offered, KeSPA reject this offer.
I see why KeSPA did not wanted to take Gretech's offer.
KeSPA used to charge broadcasters for broadcasting Proleague, which i believe is like 700mil won. If they take Gretech's offer, they won't make money like they used to since this offer will not grant total broadcasting right to KeSPA. That's why they offered 300mil to Gretech so they can have all the broadcasting right and make 700mil from each broadcasters.
Also, this article is not about Gretech getting pwned by KeSPA. Gretech already announced that they won't discuss with KeSPA anymore and will file lawsuit if KeSPA forced to open Proleague illegally. I believe that Gretech announced this to cover up before they stop Proleague forcibly.
If KeSPA really wanted to devote for the SC1 scene and SC1 fans, they should have made agreement with Blizzard in first hand. But, they kept denying IP right, making huge money off charging broadcasters for 10 years, even though they didn't even have a license, and try to cover up all these bs by announcing "SC1 is public good", which is not even true. This is why most of Korean SC fans, even SC1 fans, hate KeSPA; KeSPA wants to make money off SC1 and that's all.
P.S. I do not want the SC1 scene to die either. Don't misunderstand me. I just hate KeSPA being super idiot. Even though people say KeSPA is violating the IP rights, I still don't believe the so called IP rights from GreTech. Why is KeSPA willing to pay something to broadcast, it is not to acknowledge the IP rights of GreTech, they are just trying to avoid the lawsuit. So I hope this goes to court, then we can see how much is this IP right thing from Blizzard really worth.
Since my English is really short, I don't know how to explain what I want to say in English.
I agree with you that IP right does not come from Gretech, but Gretech is in charge of all the Blizzard product's broadcasting in Korea. KeSPA will have to gain sub-license from Gretech, since Blizzard won't listen to the bs from KeSPA.
KeSPA already said that they will not violate IP right, but they just want total broadcasting right so they can make money. Gretech was willing to make agreement with KeSPA when KeSPA actually agreed the IP right. They just fought about the broadcasting right for a month, and now KeSPA opened Proleague without making agreement.
Only thing I hope is that SC1 and SC2 both work out well, since I love both SC1 and SC2.
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Is anyone as disturbed by the whole "IP rights" stance as I am? Should a movie that takes a shot of a Toyota(TM) car have to pay "IP rights" to Toyota? If I make a picture of my kids playing with Lego(TM) blocks, do I have to pay a fee to the Lego company if I want to post them online? Where is the line drawn?
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EPT
