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On October 17 2010 16:20 lakeness wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2010 16:06 zenMaster wrote:
Did you make this account just to bash Kespa?
Either you're trying to stir up shit by posting typical Blizzard-is-good shit or you've been living under a rock.
The only thing that can shut these know it all blizz fanboys up is a cold hard ruling by the Korean court. I'm more posting about KeSPA-is-shit, sorry. And I don't think this issue will held in Korean Court. IP right is International issue. Blizzard is United States company, and KeSPA is an organization in Korea. This matter will be most likely held in International Court, which will be big shame for Korea.
One taking legal action is gretech, Korean company. KeSPA is still organisation under the goverment of Korea (Ministry of Culture, Sports and Tourism) so its going to be intresting fight... who knows where they fight, but should be in Korea.
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Estonia4504 Posts
On October 17 2010 18:10 PandaPolice wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2010 17:46 mustaju wrote:On October 17 2010 16:23 snowdrift wrote:On October 17 2010 16:13 lakeness wrote:On October 17 2010 16:00 snowdrift wrote:On October 17 2010 15:50 lakeness wrote:
Blizzard drew a fancy picture.
KeSPA began to charge people for looking at that picture. More like KeSPA invested all the money in the teams and team houses and charged the broadcasters for using their resources like any sport association does. SC1 is not their resource. Sure, they are investing money for teams and team houses. But does that mean they are right to make profit off SC1, which IP right holder did not approved at all? They don't make a profit. It's an advertisement venture; as a non-profit I assume they reinvest the money into the teams. And I'm pretty sure 700 million won doesn't cover their costs at all. It's been said before: the issue isn't money, since KeSPA is willing to pay Gretech, but control. This. As for the approval part, I have a few questions someone more knowledgeable might be able to answer. I understand that movies shouldn't be reproduced, nor music. However, when you watch someone play SC2 on a stream that operates without Blizzard permission, are you committing an offense against Intellectual Property? How many streamers have Blizzard permission? How is that different from Blizzard's perspective than, say, a tournament without their permission? Maybe streamers should pay Blizzard to be allowed to stream? Hrm...the streamers aren't charging anyone for the stream, they can ask for donations, which I think Blizzard don't have authority over. Big corporations like these are also less likely to go after small fry unless they hurt Blizzard's property on a large scale (SC2 hack makers)
They can still have sponsors though, no? Or be used to advertise, say, "handsome nerd" T-shirts (Just an example, not saying anyone has done anything illegal. I don't know if these have Blizzard approval. ) of their own design, making them a company making profit off of Blizzard's IP without directly referencing it.
If I were Blizzard I wouldn't interfere with tournaments unless direct profit is made. The 1 year contract is just an insult to injury in their demands.
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 17 2010 18:03 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2010 11:18 lakeness wrote:
1 sentence summary of this article:
1 won for the tournament, 100mil won for broadcasting fee was what Gretech offered, KeSPA reject this offer.
I see why KeSPA did not wanted to take Gretech's offer. Stop pulling bullshit statements like that out of your ass. There has been no news of KeSPA rejecting that offer. Show nested quote +KeSPA used to charge broadcasters for broadcasting Proleague, which i believe is like 700mil won. If they take Gretech's offer, they won't make money like they used to since this offer will not grant total broadcasting right to KeSPA. That's why they offered 300mil to Gretech so they can have all the broadcasting right and make 700mil from each broadcasters. This isn't about money. This is about control. If gretech repeats any of the ridiculous demands blizzard gave KeSPA, then I don't see how KeSPA could accept them. Here's what some of the euphemisms coming from gretech may mean: "We are trying to say that license is needed to broadcast games, and acknowledge that Blizzard owns IP rights to all Blizzard games." = "Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan." and "GomTV is not looking to take just the money from Korea e-sports scene through the license. It's to protect the IP rights, which is a very important right for the content businesses, as well as their right to keep it." = "4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos." Also "The goal is to further increase the size of e-sports, as well as to make it more active through our involvement. To do this, it is important to create a strong relations with the players, teams, other broadcasting stations, and other partners, not just GomTV's own tournaments." might suggest they're still going to try to enforce contracts with progamers that'll override the contracts with their actual sponsors. Show nested quote +If KeSPA really wanted to devote for the SC1 scene and SC1 fans, they should have made agreement with Blizzard in first hand. But, they kept denying IP right, making huge money off charging broadcasters for 10 years, even though they didn't even have a license, and try to cover up all these bs by announcing "SC1 is public good", which is not even true. This is why most of Korean SC fans, even SC1 fans, hate KeSPA; KeSPA wants to make money off SC1 and that's all.
P.S. I do not want the SC1 scene to die either. Don't misunderstand me. I just hate KeSPA being super idiot. No, they were not denying blizzard's IP rights (at least not at first). They were defending their perceived rights to derivative work - PL, OSL and MSL. "But, they kept denying IP right, making huge money off charging broadcasters for 10 years" That is an OUTRIGHT LIE. You really are trying to stir shit up. They were not charging broadcasters until 2007, and they reinvest all the money, they are not making any profit off of it... KeSPA would've been "super idiot" had they accepted those ridiculous conditions: 1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year 2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan 3. All progamers under Kespa are to sigh a contract with Blizzard that overrides that of Kespa. 4. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement 5. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos 6. Right to audit KeSPA ... Korean fans hate KeSPA because KeSPA has done plenty wrong, BUT they take whatever KeSPA's done good FOR GRANTED.
Assuming the validity of these statements, I can say that KeSPA and Gretech/Blizzard are both not entirely perfect corporations, but which one should hold their ground in Korea? Honestly, I don't know.
I agree with the statement that Koreans might not be looking at all the "good" KeSPA has done, thus having the general population making pro-blizzard/gretech comments.
From what I can see, KeSPA wants to control IP rights which belong to Blizzard. By controlling the IP rights, they can continue receiving revenue from other companies who want to broadcast Starcraft. They can also keep control of all the different pro teams.
KeSPA has kept the Starcraft scene alive in Korea over the years, but they do not have control of the IP rights, and now that Blizzard has launched Starcraft 2 and want to continue the growth and development of the e-Sports scene, it looks like they want to take over what KeSPA has already accomplished, and Blizzard may have the right to do so, even if it may cause upset.
Please correct me if anything I have said is wrong.
*edited for wrong quote, but same person, thanks for info 
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On October 16 2010 22:07 Gifted wrote:
Some important points to think about:
1. There seems to be an assumption that many people here have that GOMtv will always hold the rights to distribute tournament licenses. For this reason they have to act in a way that is aligned with the wants of Blizzard to ensure this stays in good relation in the future time. Blizzard has repeatedly stated that they want the IP honored in one form or another. So moving forward with the intent to build IP acknowledgement as a precedent is the most important point to be made right now. So far this seems to still be their strategy.
2. This isn't about gaining short-term gains, it's about creating the mentality that's required to profit on it. At this time if you get an entire population to think "I have to pay for what once was free". Only after that public acceptance is set can you truly profit on it. You need a precedent set first.
3. The tournament fees for 1 dollar and broadcasting fee for higher amounts is because there are more StarCraft tournaments in Korean than just those you see online. Be it in PCbangs, at public places, amateur leagues, etc, I'm sure there is a plethora of people who feel relieved that they can still continue their personal tournaments for the mere cost of 1 won. This is also part of the community that they're probably catering to. This would be in order to set a precedent and build up the mentality of "if I want to do a tournament, I will need to pay the licensee".
4. Next, of all the terms it's obvious the payment plan is not what the concern was regarding the negociations, it's the fact that the co-licensee (Gretech) would have access to all the funding and control of the logo placement, etc and would have to turn around and give it to the tournament funder. Note how Gretech specifically states "we would not abuse it"... which shows it has the potential for abuse, even if it never happened. At this point I don't believe it's a case of IP rights at the root, but concern about every dime of the sponsor money being "funneled through" Gretech, even if they keep their honor regarding it and never abuse this ability.
All this, of course, is my personal speculation. But I figured my thoughts (be them right or wrong) would help steer the direction of this conversation, please requote if you appreciated it, even if refuting my thoughts cause I'm curious about all sides.
Quoted
You really have a good points there.
I can understand the necessity of IP rights if it requires the tournaments to use only legal copy of Starcraft. Some websites out there do some kind of starcraft/warcraft league without the necessity of using legal copy.
But if it goes like this then I must say that I agree with Gifted post above.
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 17 2010 19:26 antas wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2010 22:07 Gifted wrote:
Some important points to think about:
1. There seems to be an assumption that many people here have that GOMtv will always hold the rights to distribute tournament licenses. For this reason they have to act in a way that is aligned with the wants of Blizzard to ensure this stays in good relation in the future time. Blizzard has repeatedly stated that they want the IP honored in one form or another. So moving forward with the intent to build IP acknowledgement as a precedent is the most important point to be made right now. So far this seems to still be their strategy.
2. This isn't about gaining short-term gains, it's about creating the mentality that's required to profit on it. At this time if you get an entire population to think "I have to pay for what once was free". Only after that public acceptance is set can you truly profit on it. You need a precedent set first.
3. The tournament fees for 1 dollar and broadcasting fee for higher amounts is because there are more StarCraft tournaments in Korean than just those you see online. Be it in PCbangs, at public places, amateur leagues, etc, I'm sure there is a plethora of people who feel relieved that they can still continue their personal tournaments for the mere cost of 1 won. This is also part of the community that they're probably catering to. This would be in order to set a precedent and build up the mentality of "if I want to do a tournament, I will need to pay the licensee".
4. Next, of all the terms it's obvious the payment plan is not what the concern was regarding the negociations, it's the fact that the co-licensee (Gretech) would have access to all the funding and control of the logo placement, etc and would have to turn around and give it to the tournament funder. Note how Gretech specifically states "we would not abuse it"... which shows it has the potential for abuse, even if it never happened. At this point I don't believe it's a case of IP rights at the root, but concern about every dime of the sponsor money being "funneled through" Gretech, even if they keep their honor regarding it and never abuse this ability.
All this, of course, is my personal speculation. But I figured my thoughts (be them right or wrong) would help steer the direction of this conversation, please requote if you appreciated it, even if refuting my thoughts cause I'm curious about all sides. Quoted You really have a good points there. I can understand the necessity of IP rights if it requires the tournaments to use only legal copy of Starcraft. Some websites out there do some kind of starcraft/warcraft league without the necessity of using legal copy. But if it goes like this then I must say that I agree with Gifted post above.
Also, didn't Blizzard negotiate with KeSPA before Gretech and offer them the opportunity to give out licenses, and I'm assuming that KeSPA did not want to abide by the contract because they want to keep control of e-Sports in Korea?
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On October 17 2010 19:29 Science Vessel wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 17 2010 19:26 antas wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2010 22:07 Gifted wrote:
Some important points to think about:
1. There seems to be an assumption that many people here have that GOMtv will always hold the rights to distribute tournament licenses. For this reason they have to act in a way that is aligned with the wants of Blizzard to ensure this stays in good relation in the future time. Blizzard has repeatedly stated that they want the IP honored in one form or another. So moving forward with the intent to build IP acknowledgement as a precedent is the most important point to be made right now. So far this seems to still be their strategy.
2. This isn't about gaining short-term gains, it's about creating the mentality that's required to profit on it. At this time if you get an entire population to think "I have to pay for what once was free". Only after that public acceptance is set can you truly profit on it. You need a precedent set first.
3. The tournament fees for 1 dollar and broadcasting fee for higher amounts is because there are more StarCraft tournaments in Korean than just those you see online. Be it in PCbangs, at public places, amateur leagues, etc, I'm sure there is a plethora of people who feel relieved that they can still continue their personal tournaments for the mere cost of 1 won. This is also part of the community that they're probably catering to. This would be in order to set a precedent and build up the mentality of "if I want to do a tournament, I will need to pay the licensee".
4. Next, of all the terms it's obvious the payment plan is not what the concern was regarding the negociations, it's the fact that the co-licensee (Gretech) would have access to all the funding and control of the logo placement, etc and would have to turn around and give it to the tournament funder. Note how Gretech specifically states "we would not abuse it"... which shows it has the potential for abuse, even if it never happened. At this point I don't believe it's a case of IP rights at the root, but concern about every dime of the sponsor money being "funneled through" Gretech, even if they keep their honor regarding it and never abuse this ability.
All this, of course, is my personal speculation. But I figured my thoughts (be them right or wrong) would help steer the direction of this conversation, please requote if you appreciated it, even if refuting my thoughts cause I'm curious about all sides. Quoted You really have a good points there. I can understand the necessity of IP rights if it requires the tournaments to use only legal copy of Starcraft. Some websites out there do some kind of starcraft/warcraft league without the necessity of using legal copy. But if it goes like this then I must say that I agree with Gifted post above. Also, didn't Blizzard negotiate with KeSPA before Gretech and offer them the opportunity to give out licenses, and I'm assuming that KeSPA did not want to abide by the contract because they want to keep control of e-Sports in Korea?
Honestly I don't know about the legal aspects of those things, so I can't say that when KeSPA rejecting Blizzard it means that they did wrong, and vice versa.
I think that nobody's really innocence when it involves money though.
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On October 17 2010 19:25 Science Vessel wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 17 2010 17:31 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2010 09:04 PrinceXizor wrote:
I love how in this thread, people say "koreans like kespa and gretech is wrong" using korean opinion as justification and evidence, and then others come in and correct them, that koreans actually vastly oppose kespa, and then korean opinion is just dismissed since they no longer agree with the anti-gretech side. I've never used Korean opinion as justification (at least I don't remember doing so). Show nested quote +On October 17 2010 10:06 Selith wrote:On October 17 2010 08:55 maybenexttime wrote:
No, I do not feel that KeSPA's ecistence allows them to do whatever they want. If you read my post, you'd know that. ;; I already said KeSPA has done a lot of bad things. But the fact is, the good they have done far outweighs their wrong doing. The reason why Koreans mostly side with Gretech is because they take whatever good KeSPA has done to the esports scene for granted, but at the same time they jump on a KeSPA hate bandwagon everytime they screw up. KeSPA did good when the original chairman (who was in the game biz before) was in power. After SK took over (instituting a chairman that had no idea about the game biz), they almost killed BW proscene once because they wanted 1.7 trillion won from IEG, and 500 million won from both broadcasters each as broadcasting fee. They also said they reserved full rights to broadcasting and products made through it. Right now, they are pushing for a law in which, it would give KeSPA full control over the intellectual property of games (whether it's foreign or domestic-made) that will be involved in e-sports. Whatever good they did post-SK chairman does not make up for what they are doing. As far as I remember, they did not want 1.7T won AND 500M won from IEG and OGN/MBC respectively. They asked OGN/MBC money for broadcasting rights to ProLeague (and not, StarCraft in general or all leagues, as some people are saying, spreading misinformation), which is largely their (KeSPA's - 11 team sponsors, the officials, as well as ShinHan Bank, I believe) product. They approached OGN/MBC first with an offer (I'm assuming it was that 500M won you mentioned, don't have the time to do the research and check whether the amount you gave is accurate). When they both declined, they made a public bidding for the rights and IEG offered the most. As for SKT taking over, interestingly, wikipedia claims that it only happened is 2008, which is after the ProLeague rights scandal, which took place in 2007. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_e-Sports_Players_AssociationNot only that - KeSPA did not ask for the money to generate profit - they reinvested it back into esports. Since 2007 we've had: 1) ProLeague change to a 5 round system, one round being Winner's League (with a separate prizepool, IIRC) in the 08-09 season. 2) ProLeague change to a 6 round system, two rounds being Winner's League (not sure how prizepools are going to be distributed yet) for the 10-11 season. 3) KeSPA adressing the imbalanced maps issue in ProLeague (rules change). 4) The introduction of Minor/Dream League. 5) KeSPA LAUNCHING SPECIAL FORCE PROLEAGUE (I know it's not related to BW, but it's a major development). 6) KeSPA helping former Pantech EX team find a new sponsor. 7) KeSPA helping former Hanbit Stars team find a new sponsor. 8) KeSPA working on an esports university sort of thing (don't know the details). 9) Shinhan Bank continuing to sponsor ProLeague despite the whole gretech-KeSPA negotations fiasco. On top of that, KeSPA also helps in developing other games' esports scenes (my knowledge is limited in that regard), colaborates in hosting various international events in Asia, cooperates with gaming associations from Japan, the UK, etc. OGN and MBC (they're part of KeSPA) launched their realities. OGN got a major sponsor for OSL and hosted one of the finals abroad, in Shanghai. It also made broadcasting deals with Chinese broadcasters. Not to mention the fact that they keep sustaining the progaming teams (which costs millions of dollars a year per team), broadcasting leagues, and supplying the scene with new quality maps. I'm sure there's more, but I believe this alone is enough to prove that KeSPA is not that bad. ;] Show nested quote +On October 17 2010 11:16 Antoine wrote:
simply WOW @ KeSPA apologists. i realize you guys love bw (i do too) so you think you love kespa since they're associated with bw, but they aren't jesus like you seem to think. Nobody's ever implied that they're innocent. What are you on about... Out of this entire article, this post has made the most sense to me. Assuming the validity of these statements, I can say that KeSPA and Gretech/Blizzard are both not entirely perfect corporations, but which one should hold their ground in Korea? Honestly, I don't know. I agree with the statement that Koreans might not be looking at all the "good" KeSPA has done, thus having the general population making pro-blizzard/gretech comments. From what I can see, KeSPA wants to control IP rights which belong to Blizzard. By controlling the IP rights, they can continue receiving revenue from other companies who want to broadcast Starcraft. They can also keep control of all the different pro teams. KeSPA has kept the Starcraft scene alive in Korea over the years, but they do not have control of the IP rights, and now that Blizzard has launched Starcraft 2 and want to continue the growth and development of the e-Sports scene, it looks like they want to take over what KeSPA has already accomplished, and Blizzard may have the right to do so, even if it may cause upset. Please correct me if anything I have said is wrong.
First of all, thank you.
From what I know, KeSPA wanted to reimburse blizzard for the StarCraft broadcasting rights with money from the very beginning of their negotiations. The reason why their talks ground to a halt were the rest of the demands on blizzard's part. Blizzard demanded total control over something (leagues, all programmes associated with BW, progamers, etc.) KeSPA's investing a lot more money on an annual basis than blizzard has spent on the development and marketing of both SC/BW and SC2 (if not all their titles) combined.
KeSPA does not claim the control over StarCraft IP rights. What they claim is that the broadcasting rights of their leagues are something else completely and that blizzard has no authority over those. Whether that's the case is up to the court to determine, not KeSPA or blizzard apologists.
I'd appreciate if someone more knowledgable than me clarified how the issue of IP rights was handled between the Korean publisher of StarCraft - Hanbit Soft and blizzard. For some reason blizzard allowed KeSPA to operate unhindered until 2007. If they had any objections, they would've surely brought that up to the distributor of BW in Korea, which has been a member of KeSPA since, I believe, its inception until 2008.
As for blizzard wanting to continue the growth of esports, so far they have only made a step backwards. Right now sc2 with its gsl is nothing more than prize hunting. It does not enjoy the stability of BW's progaming scene. Had blizzard left KeSPA alone and let them operate freely in sc2 as well, we would've had an sc2 progaming resembling that of BW - that would've been by far the best for sc2's growth in the esports department, imo. (To those who are going to say that blizzard/gretech invested so much money into gsl - it's only a fraction of blizzard's marketing budget for sc2 most likely, and a single KeSPA team invests a lot more into BW in a single year.)
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 17 2010 19:51 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2010 19:25 Science Vessel wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 17 2010 17:31 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2010 09:04 PrinceXizor wrote:
I love how in this thread, people say "koreans like kespa and gretech is wrong" using korean opinion as justification and evidence, and then others come in and correct them, that koreans actually vastly oppose kespa, and then korean opinion is just dismissed since they no longer agree with the anti-gretech side. I've never used Korean opinion as justification (at least I don't remember doing so). Show nested quote +On October 17 2010 10:06 Selith wrote:On October 17 2010 08:55 maybenexttime wrote:
No, I do not feel that KeSPA's ecistence allows them to do whatever they want. If you read my post, you'd know that. ;; I already said KeSPA has done a lot of bad things. But the fact is, the good they have done far outweighs their wrong doing. The reason why Koreans mostly side with Gretech is because they take whatever good KeSPA has done to the esports scene for granted, but at the same time they jump on a KeSPA hate bandwagon everytime they screw up. KeSPA did good when the original chairman (who was in the game biz before) was in power. After SK took over (instituting a chairman that had no idea about the game biz), they almost killed BW proscene once because they wanted 1.7 trillion won from IEG, and 500 million won from both broadcasters each as broadcasting fee. They also said they reserved full rights to broadcasting and products made through it. Right now, they are pushing for a law in which, it would give KeSPA full control over the intellectual property of games (whether it's foreign or domestic-made) that will be involved in e-sports. Whatever good they did post-SK chairman does not make up for what they are doing. As far as I remember, they did not want 1.7T won AND 500M won from IEG and OGN/MBC respectively. They asked OGN/MBC money for broadcasting rights to ProLeague (and not, StarCraft in general or all leagues, as some people are saying, spreading misinformation), which is largely their (KeSPA's - 11 team sponsors, the officials, as well as ShinHan Bank, I believe) product. They approached OGN/MBC first with an offer (I'm assuming it was that 500M won you mentioned, don't have the time to do the research and check whether the amount you gave is accurate). When they both declined, they made a public bidding for the rights and IEG offered the most. As for SKT taking over, interestingly, wikipedia claims that it only happened is 2008, which is after the ProLeague rights scandal, which took place in 2007. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_e-Sports_Players_AssociationNot only that - KeSPA did not ask for the money to generate profit - they reinvested it back into esports. Since 2007 we've had: 1) ProLeague change to a 5 round system, one round being Winner's League (with a separate prizepool, IIRC) in the 08-09 season. 2) ProLeague change to a 6 round system, two rounds being Winner's League (not sure how prizepools are going to be distributed yet) for the 10-11 season. 3) KeSPA adressing the imbalanced maps issue in ProLeague (rules change). 4) The introduction of Minor/Dream League. 5) KeSPA LAUNCHING SPECIAL FORCE PROLEAGUE (I know it's not related to BW, but it's a major development). 6) KeSPA helping former Pantech EX team find a new sponsor. 7) KeSPA helping former Hanbit Stars team find a new sponsor. 8) KeSPA working on an esports university sort of thing (don't know the details). 9) Shinhan Bank continuing to sponsor ProLeague despite the whole gretech-KeSPA negotations fiasco. On top of that, KeSPA also helps in developing other games' esports scenes (my knowledge is limited in that regard), colaborates in hosting various international events in Asia, cooperates with gaming associations from Japan, the UK, etc. OGN and MBC (they're part of KeSPA) launched their realities. OGN got a major sponsor for OSL and hosted one of the finals abroad, in Shanghai. It also made broadcasting deals with Chinese broadcasters. Not to mention the fact that they keep sustaining the progaming teams (which costs millions of dollars a year per team), broadcasting leagues, and supplying the scene with new quality maps. I'm sure there's more, but I believe this alone is enough to prove that KeSPA is not that bad. ;] Show nested quote +On October 17 2010 11:16 Antoine wrote:
simply WOW @ KeSPA apologists. i realize you guys love bw (i do too) so you think you love kespa since they're associated with bw, but they aren't jesus like you seem to think. Nobody's ever implied that they're innocent. What are you on about... Out of this entire article, this post has made the most sense to me. Assuming the validity of these statements, I can say that KeSPA and Gretech/Blizzard are both not entirely perfect corporations, but which one should hold their ground in Korea? Honestly, I don't know. I agree with the statement that Koreans might not be looking at all the "good" KeSPA has done, thus having the general population making pro-blizzard/gretech comments. From what I can see, KeSPA wants to control IP rights which belong to Blizzard. By controlling the IP rights, they can continue receiving revenue from other companies who want to broadcast Starcraft. They can also keep control of all the different pro teams. KeSPA has kept the Starcraft scene alive in Korea over the years, but they do not have control of the IP rights, and now that Blizzard has launched Starcraft 2 and want to continue the growth and development of the e-Sports scene, it looks like they want to take over what KeSPA has already accomplished, and Blizzard may have the right to do so, even if it may cause upset. Please correct me if anything I have said is wrong. First of all, thank you. From what I know, KeSPA wanted to reimburse blizzard for the StarCraft broadcasting rights with money from the very beginning of their negotiations. The reason why their talks ground to a halt were the rest of the demands on blizzard's part. Blizzard demanded total control over something (leagues, all programmes associated with BW, progamers, etc.) KeSPA's investing a lot more money on an annual basis than blizzard has spent on the development and marketing of both SC/BW and SC2 (if not all their titles) combined. KeSPA does not claim the control over StarCraft IP rights. What they claim is that the broadcasting rights of their leagues are something else completely and that blizzard has no authority over those. Whether that's the case is up to the court to determine, not KeSPA or blizzard apologists. I'd appreciate if someone more knowledgable than me clarified how the issue of IP rights was handled between the Korean publisher of StarCraft - Hanbit Soft and blizzard. For some reason blizzard allowed KeSPA to operate unhindered until 2007. If they had any objections, they would've surely brought that up to the distributor of BW in Korea, which has been a member of KeSPA since, I believe, its inception until 2008. As for blizzard wanting to continue the growth of esports, so far they have only made a step backwards. Right now sc2 with its gsl is nothing more than prize hunting. It does not enjoy the stability of BW's progaming scene. Had blizzard left KeSPA alone and let them operate freely in sc2 as well, we would've had an sc2 progaming resembling that of BW - that would've been by far the best for sc2's growth in the esports department, imo. (To those who are going to say that blizzard/gretech invested so much money into gsl - it's only a fraction of blizzard's marketing budget for sc2 most likely, and a single KeSPA team invests a lot more into BW in a single year.)
So upon hearing that Blizzard has left KeSPA in control of Korean e-Sports since 2007, this has led me to believe that Blizzard is trying to capitalize on KeSPA's hard work. Even if they did not have the right to do so, which we will let the courts decide should it ever come to that.
Let us all remember that Blizzard is no longer, they are Activision-Blizzard. It is because of the merger with Activision occurring during the end of 2007. Perhaps if Blizzard was still it's own company and did not merger with Activision, then things would not have changed within the Korean e-Sports scene, since before the merger the company did not seem to care what KeSPA did. However, I am not sure on the dates between the KeSPA negotations and the merger with Activision, so take that with a grain of salt.
I hope both sides can come to a conclusion that will benefit everyone. I do not want to see any negative repercussions to KeSPA, the pro gaming teams, fans, or Blizzard/Gretech.
+ Show Spoiler +On October 17 2010 21:40 maybenexttime wrote:
Actually, to be precise, the parent company of Blizzard - Vivendi Games merged with Activision and formed Activision-Blizzard. The reason why the new company is called Activision-Blizzard is because it was Vivendi Games' most successful and famous game studio. Now Blizzard is a subsidiary of Activision-Blizzard. I believe some of the people high in the Blizzard hierarchy have some say in what Activision-Blizzard does, but I'm not really sure.
As for your last paragraph, I'm afraid this is a zero sum equation - for one side to gain something, the other has to lose something. Right now Blizzard wants to gain something, while KeSPA wants to at least keep the status quo and/or maybe gain something in the long run.
I see. My last sentences was to just bring a little positive ray of hope to the situation, but I do agree with what you have to say. I guess right now we will have to see what the future holds, and just enjoy what we have.
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Actually, to be precise, the parent company of Blizzard - Vivendi Games merged with Activision and formed Activision-Blizzard. The reason why the new company is called Activision-Blizzard is because it was Vivendi Games' most successful and famous game studio. Now Blizzard is a subsidiary of Activision-Blizzard. I believe some of the people high in the Blizzard hierarchy have some say in what Activision-Blizzard does, but I'm not really sure.
As for your last paragraph, I'm afraid this is a zero sum equation - for one side to gain something, the other has to lose something. Right now Blizzard wants to gain something, while KeSPA wants to at least keep the status quo and/or maybe gain something in the long run.
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Is it not also true that despite all the 'good ' things KeSPA has supposedly done for e-sports over the years the fan base has declined since 2007, and also less sponsorship I think?
That the team system - whilst good for team members - is very much a closed shop to everyone outside the system.
That KeSPA in particular is totally Korean centric to the detriment of e-sports globally.
Just my 2 cents worth
Also - BW is old - looks old - feels old - and no one outside cares - SC2 is fresh and looks good and is garnering wide interest outside - time to move on people
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Kespa should have and was willing to pay the licensing fee to use the game.
Its where the law is blurred that blizzard and kespa halted negotiations, that is, control over the leagues, tournaments, broadcasting, and contracts for progamers.
Blizzard do not own all these things, they only own the game, which kespa is willing to pay for, but they should never have to agree to these terms that give blizzard control over something Kespa has spent 10 + years building.
They come in after so many years and just try to capitalize on Kespa's work.
And before the blizz fanboys continue raging about profiteering, Kespa is a NON PROFIT ORGANISATION. All the money they charged didn't even recoup the money they put in to keep the pro teams running.
I get so angry at the lack of respect the new people are showing to the organisation that has kept brood war going far beyond its natural life span, whom were willing to accept they had to pay for the licensing of the game, but were not willing to basically take over their entire operation.
There are plenty of great games, and none of them will live this long because they don't have an e sport association like kespa to keep it going.
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On October 17 2010 21:57 RhodanP wrote:
Is it not also true that despite all the 'good ' things KeSPA has supposedly done for e-sports over the years the fan base has declined since 2007, and also less sponsorship I think?
That the team system - whilst good for team members - is very much a closed shop to everyone outside the system.
That KeSPA in particular is totally Korean centric to the detriment of e-sports globally.
Just my 2 cents worth
Also - BW is old - looks old - feels old - and no one outside cares - SC2 is fresh and looks good and is garnering wide interest outside - time to move on people
Yes Rhodan, and yet after so many years of building it alone with no outside help, blizzard comes in in 2007 and demands total control over the entire operation, under the guise of "IP rights". That doesn't help e-sports either.
In regards to the decline, i think this is just the natural death of any esports game. It is old and will decline slowly. but the fact that it has lived for so long (an astounding 12 years) for a video game is (in my opinion) directly the result of Kespa's efforts, not blizzard's.
blizzard don't own the pro league or OSL or MSL or any of the teams. Their ip rights dont go so far as to dictate who contracts as pro gamers. Thats just acti-blizz bullshit.
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On October 17 2010 12:59 bluetrolls wrote:
Is anyone as disturbed by the whole "IP rights" stance as I am? Should a movie that takes a shot of a Toyota(TM) car have to pay "IP rights" to Toyota? If I make a picture of my kids playing with Lego(TM) blocks, do I have to pay a fee to the Lego company if I want to post them online? Where is the line drawn?
If it's homemade and home shown, then no, you don't have to pay anything. If you decide to show it in theaters and make money out of it like that Facebook movie, then yes, you have to pay IP rights. Exceptions are parodies and news coverage. But basically, there is no line drawn. The reason you tag (TM) behind these corp's names is to recognize and respect their label names.
Normal sports, like football, etc... are public goods. But everything we're discussing here is man made.
On October 17 2010 19:51 maybenexttime wrote:
KeSPA's investing a lot more money on an annual basis than blizzard has spent on the development and marketing of both SC/BW and SC2 (if not all their titles) combined.
Really? SC2 dev cost alone is $100 mil. Of course BW was made back when Blizz was like 1/10 the size it is now so it's significantly less. But somehow I doubt that KeSPA was investing that much back "annually".
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On October 17 2010 21:57 RhodanP wrote:
Is it not also true that despite all the 'good ' things KeSPA has supposedly done for e-sports over the years the fan base has declined since 2007, and also less sponsorship I think?
That the team system - whilst good for team members - is very much a closed shop to everyone outside the system.
That KeSPA in particular is totally Korean centric to the detriment of e-sports globally.
Just my 2 cents worth
Also - BW is old - looks old - feels old - and no one outside cares - SC2 is fresh and looks good and is garnering wide interest outside - time to move on people
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLL
If only I had a nickle every time I see this as an argument to why SC2 is better.
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"There are plenty of great games, and none of them will live this long because they don't have an e sport association like kespa to keep it going. "
na. the other games just sucked 
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On October 17 2010 21:57 RhodanP wrote:
Is it not also true that despite all the 'good ' things KeSPA has supposedly done for e-sports over the years the fan base has declined since 2007, and also less sponsorship I think?
Not true. It has on a slow decline since like 2005-2006, but what really damaged it was the war blizzard is waging on BW in Korea.
Shinhan Bank ProLeague Season 2010-2011 and two seasons of Korean Air OSL (third might be coming) are far from less sponsorship.
That the team system - whilst good for team members - is very much a closed shop to everyone outside the system.
If you're not good enough to get recruited by a team (not necessarily as an A-team member...), you won't achieve anything anyway; if you are - you will get recruited. There are many opportunities to get drafted.
That KeSPA in particular is totally Korean centric to the detriment of e-sports globally.
How is being passive at worst detrimental to esports globally? Your "rhethoric question" is simply wrong. Just because KeSPA does not invest nearly as much into esports outside of Korea, does not mean it does not help foster esports globally at all.
Just my 2 cents worth
Wouldn't give more than that for your 'input,' true.
Also - BW is old - looks old - feels old - and no one outside cares - SC2 is fresh and looks good and is garnering wide interest outside - time to move on people
BW is seasoned, looks classic, feels great and people outside of Korea still care about it. Over 4k people watched SKT vs. KT match yesterday. ;]
Why would I move to an inferior game? It's less fun to play, has many gameplay flaws, the graphics lack clarity and descrease the spectator value because of that, there's little micro (hardly any micro techniques), less macro, less multi-tasking, the maps are horrendous, and so on. So why bother?
On October 17 2010 22:09 Coldazer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2010 19:51 maybenexttime wrote:
KeSPA's investing a lot more money on an annual basis than blizzard has spent on the development and marketing of both SC/BW and SC2 (if not all their titles) combined. Really? SC2 dev cost alone is $100 mil. Of course BW was made back when Blizz was like 1/10 the size it is now so it's significantly less. But somehow I doubt that KeSPA was investing that much back "annually".
Sustaining a team like CJ Entus (now Hite Entus) costs CJ $40 mil a year. For years there used to be 11 progaming teams. Then take into consideration maintaining the leagues and broadcasting them on the TV - that includes plenty of other titles, not just BW.
You do the math...
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On October 16 2010 16:16 QuothTheRaven wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2010 16:15 Nemesis wrote:On October 16 2010 15:46 Emon_ wrote:
About the 100million won fee for tournaments - didn't KeSPA say that the max they would go to was 55-60million? I think it was in one of the news posts about the negotiations.
Also, why is this post released now? If they really cared about the scene this could've come two weeks ago. There is nothing earth shattering in the document. Only when KeSPA went ahead with the SPL despite there being no contract and possibly facing a lawsuit do they decide to speak up. GomTV/Gretech are handling this like amateurs. Shows how much Blizzard really cares about BW. Kespa offered 300 million won I think Yeah, that was reported in one of the other threads. And it was stated that Gretech rejected the 300 million won. What gives?
Well Gom wants their logo on Proleague
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On October 17 2010 22:31 Frankon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2010 16:16 QuothTheRaven wrote:On October 16 2010 16:15 Nemesis wrote:On October 16 2010 15:46 Emon_ wrote:
About the 100million won fee for tournaments - didn't KeSPA say that the max they would go to was 55-60million? I think it was in one of the news posts about the negotiations.
Also, why is this post released now? If they really cared about the scene this could've come two weeks ago. There is nothing earth shattering in the document. Only when KeSPA went ahead with the SPL despite there being no contract and possibly facing a lawsuit do they decide to speak up. GomTV/Gretech are handling this like amateurs. Shows how much Blizzard really cares about BW. Kespa offered 300 million won I think Yeah, that was reported in one of the other threads. And it was stated that Gretech rejected the 300 million won. What gives? Well Gom wants their logo on Proleague
If this was about a simple logo, this wouldnt've dragged on for three years... T____T As a matter of fact, last OSL had a blizzard logo during the finals.
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On October 17 2010 22:15 maybenexttime wrote:
Sustaining a team like CJ Entus (now Hite Entus) costs CJ $40 mil a year. For years there used to be 11 progaming teams. Then take into consideration maintaining the leagues and broadcasting them on the TV - that includes plenty of other titles, not just BW.
You do the math...
The sponsorships keep the teams running. Like the "CJ Corp" in CJ Entus. Not KeSPA. The leagues themselves for the most part are independent of KeSPA, all KeSPA does is leech money off of the people who run the leagues and broadcasters. All these are illegal activities since they have no rights to do such in the first place.
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EPT
