EPTOn October 18 2010 06:14 maybenexttime wrote:
Who is that "we" you're speaking of?
Who is that "we" you're speaking of?
We? The oncoming new wave of fans for sc2. That's the "we" here.
Gretech on PL negotiations - Page 12
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Danneth
United States18 Posts
We? The oncoming new wave of fans for sc2. That's the "we" here. | ||
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zenMaster
Canada761 Posts
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
On October 18 2010 10:05 PrinceXizor wrote: they charge 1.5 billion from both MBC and OGN. so 3 billion won is incredibly less than the cost of food+internet+salary for every team? 2.7 million. about 1.8 million of that is salary. and you think that the 50 players eat and use enough electricity annually for over 900000 dollars??? There was 11 teams with a dozen players in each team. Let's say we have 150 players. That makes 500$ per player per month...What is your point ? | ||
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antas
Indonesia300 Posts
From legal perspective it seems it's a losing battle for KeSPA. Time is also against KeSPA, with SC2 in scene, and the way it handled as of now, e-Sport will soon be a losing ground for KeSPA. It's hard to predict the future from what's going on at the moment, will it be good for the e-Sports scene, only time will tell. In my personal opinion: KeSPA might not be my 100% protagonist here, however I do hope that KeSPA will find a way out of this situation for the good of e-Sports. > by saying this I'm implying that I'm biasing toward KeSPA. IMO for e-Sports to become big and sustain, it needs governing body just like FIFA for football. KeSPA needs to improve obviously, but stripping KeSPA off the scene is wrong. | ||
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Saklaner
Chile9 Posts
How is it possible that some people believe that KeSPA actually spends the money they make in the Pro-scene? Even if you say the sponsors/teams/w.e. own the organization, it's hard to believe they actually split the money equally, that is just taken from a dream world, in that case, we wouldn't have teams having better players than others becasue they could easily spend the equally ammount of money they would have to distribute the players. It's like saying FIFA is actually something important to soccer except for regulate and have a say in how things are done. Every new tourney or league created 'magically' creates a profit to KeSPA and they DO NOT spend a single Won to produce it, surprise: That's what Korean Air, BigFile and many other companies over the years have been doing. KeSPA has a tournament idea, some company puts their money on it and KeSPA gets away with a huge profit. Chances are that money goes directly to the company owners in charge of KeSPA's pockets. | ||
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
On October 18 2010 15:04 Saklaner wrote: Every new tourney or league created 'magically' creates a profit to KeSPA and they DO NOT spend a single Won to produce it, surprise: That's what Korean Air, BigFile and many other companies over the years have been doing. KeSPA has a tournament idea, some company puts their money on it and KeSPA gets away with a huge profit. Chances are that money goes directly to the company owners in charge of KeSPA's pockets. Afaik, the Starleagues sponsors provide the prize pools + some expenses like renting the venue for the finals (stage in Shanghai, or plane hangar or whatever). Having a Starleague sponsor by Korean Air doesn't mean that Korean Air is going to supply every single thing the players need. | ||
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Saklaner
Chile9 Posts
On October 18 2010 15:25 endy wrote: Afaik, the Starleagues sponsors provide the prize pools + some expenses like renting the venue for the finals (stage in Shanghai, or plane hangar or whatever). Having a Starleague sponsor by Korean Air doesn't mean that Korean Air is going to supply every single thing the players need. What players need is paid by the team sponsors, as someone explained in another post. | ||
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
On October 18 2010 15:44 Saklaner wrote: What players need is paid by the team sponsors, as someone explained in another post. KeSPA = teams + sponsors + officials associated in a non-profit organization. | ||
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Rikstah
Australia126 Posts
On October 18 2010 07:57 Varth wrote: I was incredibly neutrel to this entire thing, all i did before was watch the broadcasts, but after joining this site and seeing all the arguements in this and the other thread, quite frankly the people arguing for kespa are terrible, 99% of you completly fail in the logic department, and just try to appeal to other fans like yourselves, and dont offer true arguments. Perfect example is around 8 posts above me, how blizz owns IP rights, and kespa holds IP rights to proleague. PROLEAGUE CAN NOT EXIST WITHOUT STARCRAFT. Starcraft can exist without proleague, the fact is that sc1 proleague requires....... sc1. Wow how crazy, how on earth did i know this..... Because I used logic, and didn't just go OMG SOMETHING MAY THREATEN sc1 pro scene BAD BAD BAD BAD. Well guess what, the entire kespa sc1 thing IS ILLEGAL, period end of story, and you guys havn't even been able to prove that kespa is willing to negotiate in good faith. I had zero dog in this fight, I don't work for blizzard (and dislike ativision greatly...) or gretech, and really all I did before was enjoy the games. Well done, I wasn't even convinced much by the pro gretech arguements, as I was by the pure uneducated, not well thought out, just plain elementary grade school arguments from pro kespa people on these forums, which really is quite sad because for the most part this site is superior. My view? Purely based upon the arguments from the users on this forum, is that kespa is totally in the wrong over 90% fault on their side, with gretech in the right with 10% fault. Varth you fail. You obviously haven't put enough thought into your argument either. So by this logic, basketball can't exist without basketballs, therefore, spalding owns the NBA? Just because pro league can't exist without SC1 doesn't mean blizzard can demand control over the entire operation and how its run, demand control over the pro gamer contracts, they didn't build these things kespa did. Kespa was willing to pay for licensing to use SC1, thats as far as blizzard's "ip rights" goes. Negotiations broke down as soon as blizzard demanded control of the entire pro scene. Proleague can't exist without sc1? So what? Does that mean Blizzard automatically owns kespa's entire operation? Do they automatically have control of the teams, the leagues and the broadcast operation? The movie Vanishing Point was centred around the Dodge Challenger, they had to pay licensing to use that car, does that mean Dodge can tell the movie company how the plot goes? You say you were impartial, but you are another new person to the scene who is obviously pro blizzard. You've sarcastically tried to state that the logic of proleague being unable to exist without SC1 means kespa has to bow down to every single demand. Do you really think you've solved every issue in the legal area of derivative goods? Gosh you are such a fucking idiot. | ||
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Varth
United States426 Posts
Dodge Challenger arguement kind of works, except that Kespa used the preverbial car before they had permission for years, and now that the preverbial dodge company wants to exert its rights, Vanishing Point (Kespa) is willing to pay what 1/10th of the profits per yer, and nothing else. NOT recognize that its made by dodge (blizzard) they just want to throw a little money gretechs ways and say piss off about everything else. Did I ever say bow down to everything? No, but thanks for reading my mind falsely through the internet, good try. I just said that Kespa needs to negotiate in good faith and recognize gretechs rights, which kespa is obviously violating. I'm pro blizzard in that I love most of their games, I'm generally not in favor of some of the ways they go about business, mainly the activision side of things. Never said I was an expert, I actually pointed out in my post that all my current opinion is based on is the 2 threads in team liquid. Lastly, thanks for the personal attack and proving that you are incapable of having a rational discussion, well done. | ||
mustaju
Estonia4504 Posts
On October 18 2010 17:32 Varth wrote: Basketball argument is pretty flawed dude, because there are plenty of basketball companies out there, there is ONLY ONE starcraft, the only arguement you could use for that kind of thing is saying that kespa can go to a different RTS of some sort. Dodge Challenger arguement kind of works, except that Kespa used the preverbial car before they had permission for years, and now that the preverbial dodge company wants to exert its rights, Vanishing Point (Kespa) is willing to pay what 1/10th of the profits per yer, and nothing else. NOT recognize that its made by dodge (blizzard) they just want to throw a little money gretechs ways and say piss off about everything else. Did I ever say bow down to everything? No, but thanks for reading my mind falsely through the internet, good try. I just said that Kespa needs to negotiate in good faith and recognize gretechs rights, which kespa is obviously violating. I'm pro blizzard in that I love most of their games, I'm generally not in favor of some of the ways they go about business, mainly the activision side of things. Never said I was an expert, I actually pointed out in my post that all my current opinion is based on is the 2 threads in team liquid. Lastly, thanks for the personal attack and proving that you are incapable of having a rational discussion, well done. If you are not saying KeSPA should bow down to everything, what should it bow down to and what not? Would a "Blizzard" logo on every PL/OSL/MSL scoreboard suffice? Or should Blizzard have a say over the sponsors, replays, broadcasts, players and teams, also schedules? | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5419 Posts
On October 18 2010 10:05 PrinceXizor wrote: they charge 1.5 billion from both MBC and OGN. so 3 billion won is incredibly less than the cost of food+internet+salary for every team? 2.7 million. about 1.8 million of that is salary. and you think that the 50 players eat and use enough electricity annually for over 900000 dollars??? What are the bolded numbers? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/click_online/6252524.stm Apparently I remembered it wrong. The costs of running a team like CJ are ~20 million dollars: "Sean Oh manages the team, which he says costs the conglomerate $20m (£10m) a year." Using the money they're charging for PL is enough to sustain 1/13 of CJ. There were 10 other teams before eSTRO disbanded and Hite merged with CJ. I'm sure that SKT, KT and WeMade spent at least that much. The costs of running other teams may have been lower, but were still much bigger than anything KeSPA could potentially earn from the broadcasting rights. On top of that, they claim to be reinvesting every profit they make from esports back into esports (see the list I made), and I have no reason not to believe them. If you think KeSPA cares about the pennies they're making from the broadcasting rights (other than how they can make a use of them to help esports grow), then you have to be out of your mind. | ||
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aru
183 Posts
On October 18 2010 10:05 PrinceXizor wrote: they charge 1.5 billion from both MBC and OGN. so 3 billion won is incredibly less than the cost of food+internet+salary for every team? 2.7 million. about 1.8 million of that is salary. and you think that the 50 players eat and use enough electricity annually for over 900000 dollars??? Huh? Afaik, Kespa sold the rights to IEG for 1.7b won for 3 years. IEG then wanted to sell those rights to OGN/MBC for 250m per year from each, for a total of 1.5b over the 3 years, and money from the VOD sales. They did not come to an agreement with these terms. The government stepped in and the new terms are a mystery. Fast forward 3 years and the "rights" that IEG bought wore off and they disbanded Estro. If nothing else, it kept Estro around. Does anyone even know for a fact if they are selling these rights anymore, and before that, were they selling the rights pre-2007? Do keep in mind that they live in Seoul, one of the most expensive cities in the world to live in, so their electricity and food costs more too. Besides, food and electricity aren't the only things to spend money on. There are coaches, the manager, the helper lady (cooks for them), drivers, makeup artists, the rent and/or land property tax*, other utilities bills (water, gas, etc.), some of them have physical trainers, furnishings, computers and replacements, and a ton of other stuff that adds up when you live in a "house" with 10+ other young males. SKT alone had like 25+ players. * Does anyone know if the team owners actually own the buildings the teams live in? For example, WeMade uses the building their teams live in also as an office for its other employees, but do they own the building? And salary? Does your version of salary include benefits? Health examinations, eye examinations, medicine, etc? Do they pay directly to the specialists or do they have some sort of health insurance? Do the companies pay for other insurance? Retirement funds? Does anyone know if these corporate teams even have benefits for the players?! Maybe only some? Obviously Kespa as an organization doesn't directly spend money on teams like that; the team owners do, but it's very silly to think they only spend money on food and electricity. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5419 Posts
On October 18 2010 17:32 Varth wrote: Basketball argument is pretty flawed dude, because there are plenty of basketball companies out there, there is ONLY ONE starcraft, the only arguement you could use for that kind of thing is saying that kespa can go to a different RTS of some sort. Dodge Challenger arguement kind of works, except that Kespa used the preverbial car before they had permission for years, and now that the preverbial dodge company wants to exert its rights, Vanishing Point (Kespa) is willing to pay what 1/10th of the profits per yer, and nothing else. NOT recognize that its made by dodge (blizzard) they just want to throw a little money gretechs ways and say piss off about everything else. Did I ever say bow down to everything? No, but thanks for reading my mind falsely through the internet, good try. I just said that Kespa needs to negotiate in good faith and recognize gretechs rights, which kespa is obviously violating. I'm pro blizzard in that I love most of their games, I'm generally not in favor of some of the ways they go about business, mainly the activision side of things. Never said I was an expert, I actually pointed out in my post that all my current opinion is based on is the 2 threads in team liquid. Lastly, thanks for the personal attack and proving that you are incapable of having a rational discussion, well done. Stop pulling bullshit statements like that out of your ass... KeSPA is not making any profit off of esports. Anything they directly gain from it, they reinvest back into the scene(s). That means that money going to a useless middleman (gretech) = less money invested into esports. This just shows how twisted their statement is: "The goal is to further increase the size of e-sports, as well as to make it more active through our involvement." ... On top of that, they are already investing infinitely more into esports than they can directly gain from charging for broadcasting rights. Esports is a marketing venture - they are SPENDING, NOT EARNING money... | ||
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snowdrift
France2061 Posts
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maybenexttime
Poland5419 Posts
On October 18 2010 22:24 snowdrift wrote: I salute your persistence, maybenexttime. It's sad that the same things have to be repeated over and over again. Hehe, thanks. Years of practice - I've participated in nearly every thread discussing religion on WCReplays, this is nothing.  | ||
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Elroi
Sweden5585 Posts
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antas
Indonesia300 Posts
Blizzard/Gretech and KeSPA see things differently, especially the future of e-sports. Blizzard/Gretech would like the game to be accessible to anyone, thus Blizzard tried to make skill gap is closer and closer with SC2. In SC1, even after numbers of playing, the skill gap is huge. Gom statement that they don't want to create league game and keeping the open tournament format only confirming this. With open tournament format, everyone can enter the tournament, making new faces appearance more possible, and regeneration (or I prefer to call it turnover) rate higher. This might be great for the audience in short term at least, but this won't allow player sustainability. With Proleague or other league system in Korea, player can sustain playing, and can work as a gamer > playing/practicing 8hrs+ / day > making crazy performance. KeSPA however imperfect they are, so far they were able to keep this proleague and most importantly players to be sustainable. Since their system allowed more players to enter professionally (11 team with 15+ players per team). I doubt open tournament system will allow players to sustain themselves professionally. True that players can get sponsors etc, but I doubt it can reach the durability and longevity of what their big brothers did (SC1) during the last 12 years. And IMO with KeSPA system, players is more protected the way I see it, they can have benefit (just like normal employee) such as insurance and other. Back to my previous analogy, FIFA is also not a perfect body, but here they are  Perhaps English football scene is a more appropriate analogy for Korean BW e-Sports scene, and Shinhan Proleague is the Barclays Premier League, KeSPA is the English Football Association (FA), and Blizzard is .... who is blizzard?? .. lol. This analogy will be perfect if not for the IP things. If i see the pictures correctly then here what I think what will/should happen next: 1. KeSPA HWAITINGGG!!! (assuming they have at least some intention to protect pro players) 2. Blizzard/Gretech marched on > with GSL + SC2 popularity on the rise, they don't even need to proceed with law suit. SPL (Proleague) will have lower and lower ratings, so it will die by itself. 3. SC1 ceased to have a big sponsorships. Thus forcing majority of the teams (and their governing bodies) to take SC2 pill. Since Blizzard already forced IP in SC2 since the very beginning, it means that anybody must bow to Blizzard/Gretech if they want a piece of SC2. 4. KeSPA or more likely Korean Government will force pro player to have employee contract protection. And as this happen the new era of e-sports is happening. .. Call me pessimist, but that's what I think based on what's happening now. I do hope that SC1 can go side by side with SC2, as by all means SC1 is really a good game for pro scene. I will feel so sad if SC1 dies, all SC1 players, MBC Hero and SK T1 in particular. .. Only time will tell, e-sports I believe will still be there, however will it give more benefit to the players? or not ... | ||
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Furycrab
Canada456 Posts
On October 16 2010 15:21 LunarC wrote: One won? Why not include tournament and broadcasting rights under the same fee.. Because they are saying they don't care how many types of tournaments they run, but do care about who runs a broadcast over television. They want to renegotiate every year as to insure that whatever fees in place are appropriate to how big or small the esport scene has become. This is my GUESS (not in anyway a statement of facts) but Kespa doesn't like this, because it somewhat undermines them quite heavily, since the networks would find themselves paying Kespa for the product and Gretech for the licensing. Driving a wedge between the two. I can't see this staying out of courts going on the history. =( Could be wrong, but even if it stays out, the damage is mostly done. | ||
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revy
United States1524 Posts
On October 18 2010 17:32 Varth wrote: Basketball argument is pretty flawed dude, because there are plenty of basketball companies out there, there is ONLY ONE starcraft, the only arguement you could use for that kind of thing is saying that kespa can go to a different RTS of some sort. Dodge Challenger arguement kind of works, except that Kespa used the preverbial car before they had permission for years, and now that the preverbial dodge company wants to exert its rights, Vanishing Point (Kespa) is willing to pay what 1/10th of the profits per yer, and nothing else. NOT recognize that its made by dodge (blizzard) they just want to throw a little money gretechs ways and say piss off about everything else. Did I ever say bow down to everything? No, but thanks for reading my mind falsely through the internet, good try. I just said that Kespa needs to negotiate in good faith and recognize gretechs rights, which kespa is obviously violating. I'm pro blizzard in that I love most of their games, I'm generally not in favor of some of the ways they go about business, mainly the activision side of things. Never said I was an expert, I actually pointed out in my post that all my current opinion is based on is the 2 threads in team liquid. Lastly, thanks for the personal attack and proving that you are incapable of having a rational discussion, well done. My favorite part of this is that you quote in bold about being personally attacked when your first statement, even before you began your argument, was an attack saying that Kespa supporters lack logic. | ||
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