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On October 08 2010 04:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 04:14 shindigs wrote:On October 08 2010 04:06 iEchoic wrote:On October 08 2010 04:05 kojinshugi wrote:On October 08 2010 04:02 iEchoic wrote:On October 08 2010 04:00 Zelniq wrote:it's not like terran doesnt have a million other strong early game openers/harass/aggression/all-ins vs zerg What other early game aggression is there besides reapers and hellions? Banshees? Drops? Guess that depends on your definition of early. T3 units aren't early aggression lol. Ironically they are for Terran via 1-1-1 build. In any case, I would agree that this definitely shuts down the main opening aggressions for Terran such as reaper of Hellion. What I'm hoping is that players take it a step further and go for pure MM timing pushes, which I think would be pretty awesome. If by awesome you mean vomit inducingly lame then yes  ! I sense a lil bit of sarcasm in your post so Im assuming that is indeed what you meant lol
I wasn't being sarcastic so now my opinion SUCKS =(
What I'm getting at is I hope SC2 moves less toward opening aggressions based on 1 hard countery unit and more on a composition at particular times.
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So how does a <50% win rate for TvZ call for things like supply depot changes and roach range increases?
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On October 08 2010 04:26 Fianchetto wrote:
Barracks requiring supply depot, and nitro packs requiring factory seem really stupid to me. I don't understand why blizzard wants to limit the options of Terran players. I don't think I will expect to see reapers at all now, especially with roaches getting range too.
I think it is because Terrans already have a dozen opening options, whereas zerg has maybe 2 or 3, max.
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On October 08 2010 04:29 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:
So how does a <50% win rate for TvZ call for things like supply depot changes and roach range increases?
because those stats from the ladders are total bull-fucking-shit.
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God bless you, Blizzard! You are truly enlighted! This is so amazing, I love all of it.
Finally Terran can no longer cheese early game like P and Z can do!
Finally are roaches worth the money again! Who would pay 75/25/2 for a unit that does not take damage from storm, is great against zealots and colossi, very beefy in general, already used a lot in all matchups because it f*cking owns if used right?
Finally can I 14 Hatch all day every day against Terran and also not get ling speed maybe? Roaches with 4 range and a crawler as well as 2 queens to block the ramp should be enough to fend off hellions I assume!
Finally they take out one of terran's units that is designed to be used as harassment! Now I can can get to lategame every time! And so can my protoss friends who I am sure love the new roach!
PvT is P favoured lategame and ZvT is Z favoured lategame. Actually I am pretty sure it is or at least that it should be in the current balance situation. So obviously I welcome the fact that Terran now can't win because the (admittedly, not sarcastic on this one...) imbalanced pushes and attacks get nerfed one after another and the lategame does not get fixed in return.
Finally can Protoss no longer forgeFE because my beautiful roaches will tear down the wall! Finally do I no longer need hydras for a bust on a cannon defense! Finally are forcefields only half as bad! Hooray for less macro intensive styles! I just wish they would make maps with more backdoor rocks, too (they could call it something like "rainforest lowlands" eg.), so we can be even more aggressive and can impossibly reach good saturation so we dont even have to expand anymore! I liked WC3 better than BW anyways!
Ok, I dont wanna be entirely negative - the FG-Blink fix and Zerg structure HP increase are probably good fixes.
Oh and before anybody says something like "LOL terran players crying already"
Coming from BW terran (only D+ level though -.-) I do already have 260 APM and don't freaking care how hard some guys think zerg macro is on a mechanical level because that is probably the thing I am best at in the whole game... Guess what, I switched from Terran to Zerg because macro fits my style, because I always found lategame Zerg to be extremely strong (if not even OP granted the player is good) and because Zerg rewards high APM the most, I feel.
Felt pretty solid so far but I think with this patch buffing Z even more they might overdo it. Honestly, with Cool decisively winning the GSL and the ZvT stats Browder provided us with I'd rather give it some more time, especially since the reapers have already been nerfed last patch.
I don't mind reapers being less viable and I don't mind depot before barracks that much because I never used to cheese anyways (back when I played terran). But I DO mind them not giving Terran some good lategame options in return. I always thought Terran had so many harassment options because they NEEDED them to stay on even footing. Because any time I just macroed and let macro until I hit 200 Supply and beyond that moment I just lost no matter how much better I knew I was (because I've played the guy a million times before and he even told me he just a-moved his ultras via minimap).
I've heard many people claim 200 supply of thor, hellion and some vikings to be the best army in the game but I never actually saw proof. And my pushes of that kind always died to just mass ultras with a flank...
I think Zerg is OP lategame, yes I said it, and thus I do still think you need to force them to waste overlords and lings as scouts and to get ling speed just in case and to tech to roaches just to deal with hellions better and to get crawlers just to get a little safer versus harassment and to get the third later because enemy pushes are so strong.
Now with roach's range 4 and the "depot before rax" requirement I feel Zerg has it a lot easier to get to their OP lategame.
I mean I switched to Zerg after all, some time ago actually, and I am doing fine having a lot of fun.
But ultimately I want this game to be well balanced giving each race an equal chance of winning in all stages of the game if that is even possible. If it is not possible I want it to be at least as good as it was in BW.
I think time will tell and I am not especially good unfortunately but I dont like how this looks...
SB
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On October 08 2010 04:29 Sqq wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 04:29 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:
So how does a <50% win rate for TvZ call for things like supply depot changes and roach range increases? because those stats from the ladders are total bull-fucking-shit.
How do you figure?
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How does Blizzard account for skill? I'm not entirely sold on those statistics.
If they're basing it off MMR, that is also subject to OPedness and UPedness.
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On October 08 2010 04:28 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 04:22 floor exercise wrote:
Supply before barracks is just the biggest joke of a fix ever, completely limits build options and choice just to fix one stupid unit. I'd say making Nexus before Gateway, CC before Rax, and Hatch before Pool viable openings that don't auto-lose to reapers is a little more than "fixing one stupid unit".
Reaper being the primary issue, not barracks before supply
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On October 08 2010 04:22 ThirdStorm wrote:
Even after these changes, Zerg will still keep losing because all the buffs in the world won't make up for the lack of skill Zerg players lack to fully play their race. Reapers will now be useless and Roaches will be overpowered. Good job you whining Zergs, Christmas is coming early for you guys.
Yes, because reapers won't destroy zerglings, drones, or buildings with ease anymore and don't have a mobility advantage.
/s
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On October 08 2010 04:30 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 04:29 Sqq wrote:On October 08 2010 04:29 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:
So how does a <50% win rate for TvZ call for things like supply depot changes and roach range increases? because those stats from the ladders are total bull-fucking-shit. How do you figure? Uh, how about the matchmaking system forces a 50% winrate and winrate determines league placement.
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On October 08 2010 04:30 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 04:29 Sqq wrote:On October 08 2010 04:29 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:
So how does a <50% win rate for TvZ call for things like supply depot changes and roach range increases? because those stats from the ladders are total bull-fucking-shit. How do you figure?
Because in his own experience he loses ZvTs more often than he wins.
I'm willing to bet.
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We're increasing roach range. This will allow roaches to be more effective in large groups, giving the zerg more options in the mid to end game.
I've wanted this to happen ever since roaches became 2 food great change imo.
Fungal Growth will now prevent Blink, which will give zerg a way to stop endlessly Blinking stalkers which can be very challenging to deal with in large numbers.
I was of the opinion this was how this should have worked from the get go.
The Barracks are going to require a Supply Depot, which will impact a lot of early terran reaper pushes.
Seems very drastic. I feel like barracks before supply has always been a pretty big part of starcraft as a game. Hopefully they think this one over.
The reaper speed upgrade will require the Factory, which is meant to weaken a lot of the early terran reaper attacks that dominate so many matches, especially in team games.
Dumb change. I support reaper speed being harder to get, but making it require factory is stupid. Reapers are useful for barracks heavy openings that are light on support units, getting a factory up is pretty counter intuitive. Could have easily made the upgrade 100/100 and/or have a longer build time .
We're making a number of increases to the health of zerg buildings, which will make the very vulnerable zerg technology structures more resistant to raids. We don’t expect these hit point changes to have a super significant impact on the game, but the current numbers felt way too low.
Seems fine, though I think crawler burrow time needs to be addressed if they are having a discussion about zerg buildings.
In summary I'm pretty excited for these changes. Mostly because I hate that zerg is underrepresented in terms of player percentage.
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On October 08 2010 04:28 Seam wrote:
Mutas never counter Thors. Not even with Magic Box. You still need a quite higher cost of Mutas to kill Thors.
It's not like you're gonna use mutas to counter the main mech ball.
The point is that once mutas hit around the 7-8 mark they roflstomp small numbers of thors left to defend bases, even if there's turrets.
Mech is slow enough as it is.
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On October 08 2010 04:32 blagoonga123 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 04:30 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:On October 08 2010 04:29 Sqq wrote:On October 08 2010 04:29 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:
So how does a <50% win rate for TvZ call for things like supply depot changes and roach range increases? because those stats from the ladders are total bull-fucking-shit. How do you figure? Because in his own experience he loses ZvTs more often than he wins. I'm willing to bet.
Well its true that its from ladder. Tournament results imo mean more then if the ladder is at a 50% win/loss ratio.
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United States7166 Posts
On October 08 2010 04:19 Pekkz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 04:10 iEchoic wrote:On October 08 2010 04:08 BlasiuS wrote:On October 08 2010 04:02 iEchoic wrote:On October 08 2010 04:00 Zelniq wrote:it's not like terran doesnt have a million other strong early game openers/harass/aggression/all-ins vs zerg What other early game aggression is there besides reapers and hellions? 3rax hellion/banshee fast cloak banshee hellion/marauder hellion/igniter hellion drop mass marine fast viking turbo-newb (tank drop on cliff) 3rax - terrible mass marine - terrible The rest of those are t3 units, not early aggression. On October 08 2010 04:08 Pekkz wrote:
Everyone agreed that zerg needed a buff. When actuall changes comes, people start to whine. I think pretty much anything could have been buffed and people would still be outraged.
Reaper is dead. Ok that removes one of 10 openings.
10 rax is dead. Ok that removes two of 10 opening.
So? EVERYONE agreed that terran had too many openings and thats what made them so friggin good.
Roach range is a much needed buff to make something before muta counter mass helllions. You can basicly make only hellions+expand and be safe against anything zerg can do. In addition you allmost allways burn a ton of drones with em aswell. I'm a terran player and I thought the nerfs in the last patch were fine, you can even look at my post history. The tank nerf was great, the reaper nerf was great. This shit is just stupid though. Almost nobody that is actually good likes these changes, so far almost everyone for them has been gold level zerg players that think imbalance is holding them back. Supply before rax? Seriously? I feel like I'm playing WoW. Terran doesn't have 10 TvZ openings, there are essentially two - reaper and hellion. Almost every good T player uses one of these two openings, with very few exceptions. Nobody that is good likes this changes? Only seen jinro and zelniq in this thread that can be considerd good, and they have different opininons..... I think the supply depot before rax is overkill myself, since roach>reaper and reaper speed after factory. They only put that in there for team games and that is pretty retarded. However, the terran whine in here cus of a 1 range upgrade on roach will make hellions useless is so retarded. You lost reaper opening, and 10 rax bunker shit. Deal with it.
depot before rax requirement is silly and unnecessary as people stated, but however I'm not exactly worried for terrans as even w/o reapers they still have so many options for the early game in all matchups
roach change..im really shocked/impressed by blizzard to do something like that.. i'd never even considered that as something they might/should do. all the talk about zerg feeling limited in options early on especially for attacking.. suddenly seems less of an issue as I think most kinds of effective aggression from zerg early would involve roaches.
the range increase should change so many aspects of the game, im really excited to play the patch
as for reapers, clearly it shows they're struggling with figuring out what its purpose is and as day9/idra were saying in SotG podcast, they should just remove the unit from the game if they want to keep it as soley a unit for harassment/raids/scouting.
i personally think they should change its stats/mechanics/build times/cost so that they could be more useful as part of main army additions or somehow more useful in the later stages of the game.
i never understood why stalkers were able to blink out of fungal when it felt like fungal should be the direct counter to blink, so im quite happy with that change
im sure the hp increase on zerg buildings will be minor and wont really change the game significantly or anyone's build/strategies, it just helps zerg just a bit to not lose their key structures so easily which is nice as well
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On October 08 2010 04:32 wrgrbl wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 04:30 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:On October 08 2010 04:29 Sqq wrote:On October 08 2010 04:29 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:
So how does a <50% win rate for TvZ call for things like supply depot changes and roach range increases? because those stats from the ladders are total bull-fucking-shit. How do you figure? Uh, how about the matchmaking system forces a 50% winrate and winrate determines league placement.
That has no bearings on this at all.
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in all honesty i just dont see the real need for the reaper in the game at all. even before this patch hits.
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THERE IS A GOOD!
Thx so much Blizz!
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On October 08 2010 04:30 SexyBimbo wrote:
God bless you, Blizzard! You are truly enlighted! This is so amazing, I love all of it.
Finally Terran can no longer cheese early game like P and Z can do!
Finally are roaches worth the money again! Who would pay 75/25/2 for a unit that does not take damage from storm, is great against zealots and colossi, very beefy in general, already used a lot in all matchups because it f*cking owns if used right?
Finally can I 14 Hatch all day every day against Terran and also not get ling speed maybe? Roaches with 4 range and a crawler as well as 2 queens to block the ramp should be enough to fend off hellions I assume!
Finally they take out one of terran's units that is designed to be used as harassment! Now I can can get to lategame every time! And so can my protoss friends who I am sure love the new roach!
PvT is P favoured lategame and ZvT is Z favoured lategame. Actually I am pretty sure it is or at least that it should be in the current balance situation. So obviously I welcome the fact that Terran now can't win because the (admittedly, not sarcastic on this one...) imbalanced pushes and attacks get nerfed one after another and the lategame does not get fixed in return.
Finally can Protoss no longer forgeFE because my beautiful roaches will tear down the wall! Finally do I no longer need hydras for a bust on a cannon defense! Finally are forcefields only half as bad! Hooray for less macro intensive styles! I just wish they would make maps with more backdoor rocks, too (they could call it something like "rainforest lowlands" eg.), so we can be even more aggressive and can impossibly reach good saturation so we dont even have to expand anymore! I liked WC3 better than BW anyways!
Ok, I dont wanna be entirely negative - the FG-Blink fix and Zerg structure HP increase are probably good fixes.
Oh and before anybody says something like "LOL terran players crying already"
Coming from BW terran (only D+ level though -.-) I do already have 260 APM and don't freaking care how hard some guys think zerg macro is on a mechanical level because that is probably the thing I am best at in the whole game... Guess what, I switched from Terran to Zerg because macro fits my style, because I always found lategame Zerg to be extremely strong (if not even OP granted the player is good) and because Zerg rewards high APM the most, I feel.
Felt pretty solid so far but I think with this patch buffing Z even more they might overdo it. Honestly, with Cool decisively winning the GSL and the ZvT stats Browder provided us with I'd rather give it some more time, especially since the reapers have already been nerfed last patch.
I don't mind reapers being less viable and I don't mind depot before barracks that much because I never used to cheese anyways (back when I played terran). But I DO mind them not giving Terran some good lategame options in return. I always thought Terran had so many harassment options because they NEEDED them to stay on even footing. Because any time I just macroed and let macro until I hit 200 Supply and beyond that moment I just lost no matter how much better I knew I was (because I've played the guy a million times before and he even told me he just a-moved his ultras via minimap).
I've heard many people claim 200 supply of thor, hellion and some vikings to be the best army in the game but I never actually saw proof. And my pushes of that kind always died to just mass ultras with a flank...
I think Zerg is OP lategame, yes I said it, and thus I do still think you need to force them to waste overlords and lings as scouts and to get ling speed just in case and to tech to roaches just to deal with hellions better and to get crawlers just to get a little safer versus harassment and to get the third later because enemy pushes are so strong.
Now with roach's range 4 and the "depot before rax" requirement I feel Zerg has it a lot easier to get to their OP lategame.
I mean I switched to Zerg after all, some time ago actually, and I am doing fine having a lot of fun.
But ultimately I want this game to be well balanced giving each race an equal chance of winning in all stages of the game if that is even possible. If it is not possible I want it to be at least as good as it was in BW.
I think time will tell and I am not especially good unfortunately but I dont like how this looks...
SB
Terran QQ is a beautiful site indeed, it brings tears of joy to my humble Zerg soul. Perhaps zerg players won't have to be 25% better than their terran opponents to win now, what a shame.
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EPT
