EPTSC2 is being designed from the beginning on with MBS in it, and it will eventually be balanced with MBS.
Why MBS Is Essential To a Competitive SC2 - Page 7
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Brutalisk
794 Posts
SC2 is being designed from the beginning on with MBS in it, and it will eventually be balanced with MBS. | ||
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
1) everyone needs to stop saying 'pros can't even play perfect games.' just because you saw some random FPVOD of a pro with bad macro doesn't suddenly prove that pros are incapable of playing perfect games. I've sat behind iloveoov and watched him play five tvz games in a row perfectly. Believe me, i was looking for EVERYTHING. He never missed a beat. I can say the same with Savior, i even saw him play a perfect game with protoss. That doesn't mean that these people haven't screwed up games when under tremendious pressure. At the same time they're definitely not interested in competing on a game with lower standards. Wouldn't it be great to see savior oov and nal ra all tearing it up on SC2? 2) yes grubby has said that wc3 has major issues on the competitive level, mainly because there's not enough tasks for the players to juggle, instead randomness can take over. That doesn't mean he hates the game, it means he's recognized a heavy flaw in it. We discussed this at Blizzcon while playing SC2. 3) Lets get one thing straight, if you've played as much as Nony, or any other good sc player, you know it's not impossible to maxed fast while keeping up in upgrades, out microing your opponent and out thinking him. It just takes A LOT of practice. That's a good thing for esports. Here's SC on the competitive scene compared to baseball: ![[image loading]](http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a151/tasteless9/baseball.jpg) Not only do you have to run to the bases as fast as you can, steal bases, you have to hit a baseball that can be coming at any speed and at some very strange angles, this is what makes baseball so good. It's a very difficult sport to fully master. ![[image loading]](http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a151/tasteless9/teeball.jpg) For some people, hitting the ball is to hard, so we let them play tee ball. Now all you have to do is run to the bases and know when to steal. Unfortunately tee ball is not respected the same way baseball is, mainly because teeball is much easier. Don't turn our sport into tee ball 4) If any magazine is ignorant enough to critisize the lack of MBS in competitive play, i'm sure TL.net will mail the shit out of them and make sure they are made awear of their errors. | ||
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Klockan3
Sweden2866 Posts
On September 10 2007 08:27 BlackStar wrote: Even if you want to change the balance between macro and micro you would not want to that by making the game easier. They arent making the pro level game easier, theyre making the pro level game harder by adding a lot of shit to do since pros dont have as much use for mbs and autorally as noobs, at the same time they make the noob level game easier by adding stuff such as this. Btw, dont underestimate the keybinding use of noobs, they use it in all games with mbs for production, while keybindings in sc are very cumbersome to use due to the selection limits compared to other games. | ||
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SoleSteeler
Canada5420 Posts
On September 10 2007 07:34 fuglyfrog wrote: I think this pretty much sums up the mentality of the "rts community": + Show Spoiler + 47 Reasons TA is better than Starcraft 1) Starcraft only has 84 units, over half of which are buildings and their add-ons! Total Annihilation has over 250. 2) In Starcraft, only 12 units can be in a group at once. Note that this was claimed to help "prevent rushing", not that it really does because you can just hotkey groups of units. Of course, Total Annihilation has no limit. 3) In Starcraft, a maximum of five units can be built at once by each building except Zerg, who can only build three and only at certain times. Total Annihilation has no limit. 4) In Starcraft, only nine commands can be given to one unit at once and you can't see what has been queued or in what order, nor can you undo any queued commands and the commands can only be spells or movement orders. In Total Annihilation there is no limit, and you are shown exactly what each unit will do and in what order and you can undo and redo any of the commands in any order. 5) In Starcraft, when a construction unit builds a structure, or a unit plant builds a unit, no other units can help construct, hence the build speed cannot be augmented in any way. In Total Annihilation, you can have as many units as you want help construct buildings and units to speed it up. (Note that even in WarCraft II, you could make an extra peon help build a structure.) 6) There are a limited number of resources on any given Starcraft map. Total Annihilation has no limit. However, when making a map, you can simulate the 'limited resources' concept by restricting all resource units (Solar Collectors, Metal Extractors etc.), and place lots of debris, rocks, and trees. That way you will have to reclaim them, much like in gathering your resources in Starcraft. 7) In Starcraft, you can select all units of the same type, but only on the screen, and only 12 of them. CTRL-Z in Total Annihilation selects all units of that type on the map. 8) Starcraft has no water units whatsoever. In Total Annihilation, you can build entire bases on or under the water! 9) In Starcraft, there is no way to reclaim the minerals of dead units, buildings, and incomplete buildings (not that there is any debris from buildings, of course, as it "magically disappears"). In Total Annihilation, all destroyed units and buildings leave behind scrap metal which can be extracted and reused. You can even extract the metal from operational units and buildings, friend or foe. 10) In Starcraft, all units see in a circular radius, with small line of sight restrictions from large mountains. In Total Annihilation, you can choose between circular line of sight as in Starcraft, permanent line of sight as in Command & Conquer or true line of sight, where units cannot see through walls or over cliffs. 11) In Starcraft, all units shoot in a circular radius, including through wall and over cliffs. The projectiles are not effected by elevation, wind, or gravity. Total Annihilation uses true physics to determine the path of projectiles. 12) In Starcraft, the only change in elevation is onto plateaus and bridges and such, but you're not really "above" anyone as far as the game is concerned. Total Annihilation has everything from small hills to huge mountains that affect the game dramatically. 13) You can not see the energy of a unit unless it is selected in Starcraft. In Total Annihilation, you can see the remaining armour of all units on the screen at once, or turn that off if you prefer more atmosphere. 14) In Starcraft, aircraft can not land. In Total Annihilation, not only do aircraft land, but some can do so underwater. 15) The music in Starcraft is all played on a synthesizer. The music in Total Annihilation is played by a real orchestra and if you prefer, you can put in different CDs and play anything you want. 16) In Starcraft, you can't deselect your selected unit ever, unless they die or go into a assimilator/extractor! In Total Annihilation, you can always deselect everything by right clicking. 17) Right clicking in Starcraft uses "smart commands," but left clicking only uses commands that have been selected. In Total Annihilation, left clicking uses "smart commands," unless you have a command selected. Then it uses that command. Right clicking deselects. Note that you can change the mouse settings in the options window in TA to mimic that of StarCraft. 18) In Starcraft, the only way to have a unit hold fire is to move him around or to ally with the enemy. In Total Annihilation, you can set units to hold fire, to return fire only, or to fire at will. 19) At a Starcraft unit constructing building, the only command you can give units built there is a rally point. In Total Annihilation, you can tell units where to go and set waypoints; you can have them hold fire, return fire, or fire at will; and you can have them hold position, maneuver, or roam at their destination. You can even set them to a patrol route before they exit the building! 20) StarCraft only has one construction unit. Total Annihilation has nine different construction units. Each of them can build different types of structures at varying speeds. 21) With the spawned version of Starcraft, you can only play a game hosted by the person with the CD that you used to install StarCraft. In Total Annihilation, with the spawn, you can play any multiplayer game, so long as the CDlayer ratio is at least 1:3. 22) With Starcraft online games, you have to play IPX simulated games on the internet, so you cannot use IP addresses. In Total Annihilation, you can be the server which cuts out the middle man and speeds up games, but if you want, you can always choose to play with simulated IPX. 23) In Starcraft, flying units do not fly; they hover. They are more like flying vehicles. All air units in Total Annihilation use a physics engine to determine the flight path, really bank, and do not stop in mid air like all flying units in Starcraft. 24) Projectiles in Starcraft always hit their target and do damage, whether it appears so or not. Projectiles in Total Annihilation use a physics engine to determine whether they hit or miss their targets and the damage is determined by how close the explosion was to the target. 25) Units in Starcraft cannot fire while moving. If you set them to, every unit in Total Annihilation will automatically aim and fire at enemy units in range, moving or not. This is great for hit and run missions or 'driveby shootings'. 26) Many weapons in Starcraft do not have projectiles. For example, there is a siege tank with its massive artillery shells and marines' gauss rifles that travel at infinite velocity, and then the explosion just appears on the target. Every weapon in Total Annihilation fires a projectile using a physics engine that determines how to hit the target. 27) In Starcraft the largest maps are 256x256. Total Annihilation has maps at least four times that size, for longer and more thought out strategies. 28) In Starcraft there are only two ways to get resources - mining minerals and vespene gas. In Total Annihilation there are several ways to get resources. You can reclaim plants and rocks, you can use metal extractors, metal makers, many different energy producers, and most units produce a bit of energy themselves. 29) In Starcraft if your hatchery/command center/nexus is destroyed, you keep your resources somehow, so that marine had better have deep pockets. In Total Annihilation your Commander stores all your metal and energy, so if he dies you lose most of your resources. You can also build metal and energy storage facilities so you can have a higher maximum resources capacity. Construction plants and several units also store resources. 30) Starcraft has crystals and vespene geysers growing out of the surface of space stations. Total Annihilation drills the metal out of the space station. 31) The Starcraft storyline in the manual states that the Protoss race teleport all their prebuilt buildings and warriors from the Aiur (The Protoss homeworld). However, when fighting a battle on Aiur, the Protoss gain no advantage whatsoever. In non-campaign maps TA does not include the homeworlds and therefore does not have to deal with this problem. 32) In Starcraft a marine can shoot a burrowed Zergling on the other side of a mountain wall past a barracks behind a tree underneath a Siege tank with pinpoint accuracy! In Total Annihilation you cannot. 33) In Starcraft, you cannot choose your colour. It is selected for you randomly. You are just as likely to get purple or yellow as something you want. In TA, you have a choice of ten different colours, including black. 34) Starcraft has no way at all to get new units/structures into the game, other than expansion sets, because the units are hard coded into the StarCraft engine. Total Annihilation's game engine was built specifically to load units found in the directory. When booting up the game it searches the directory and says "Oh a new unit, I'll just add him in here!" and you can then play with it normally. You can also download new units online that were posted at Cavedog's website weekly, and from many others. 35) Multiplayer lag in Starcraft is presented by the game momentarily pausing and commands being delayed by up to five seconds. Lag in Total Annihilation multiplayer simply slows the game down. 36) In Starcraft it's harder to control your units because of the unsatisfactory unit AI. For example, when trying to move a dragoon up stairs he will move jerkily up the stairs, and then decide to go back down and try to go onto the higher platform in a different way. You have to manually click for each step you want him to take. In Total Annihilation units go where you want, when you want, in the most efficient way possible most of the time. 37) In Starcraft when you initially set up the game to host, you can not change the settings when the game has been hosted. If you decide you want to play a different map, you have to completely rehost the game. IIn Total Annihilation you can change all of the settings (except for game name) while the game is being hosted, and then view the settings even while in the middle of the game. 38) In Starcraft if you want to restrict units from play, must build a custom scenario and disable the desired units for each player. In Total Annihilation, when hosting the game, meaning you can edit the unit restrictions with a few clicks you can limit the number of that unit available in the game at any time by one player, or completely prevent them from being used altogether. Other players in the game can also view the unit limits/restrictions. 39) In Starcraft all of the super weapons (nuclear missiles, psionic storms) are impossible to stop after they are casted/lauched. In Total Annihilation, you can build missile defense systems which fire anti-nukes and takes out the missile in mid air before it reaches your base. Note that the antinukes also take out other ICBMs and you can build mobile versions. 40) In Total Annihilation, most weapons as well as units are an object in the game, meaning that a Big Bertha could very well hit a bomber flying past or a nuke could hit a fighter flying overhead. In Starcraft, all weapons are mere graphical effects, and nothing like this can ever happen. 41) In SC a unit armed with more than one weapon (wraith, goliath, scout) cannot shoot both of them. In TA, units can have up to 3 weapons and can fire all at once. 42) Units do not decrease in spee when going up an incline, neither do they tilt or do anything neat. 43) Units in SC do not explode when they die. They have a pretty graphic placed on them, then they disappear, doing no damage to their surroundings. TA units can give off huge explosions, small explosions or normal explosions, all which send debris and unit pieces flying away, depending on the damage taken. 44) No radar in SC. All that you have to detect things with are LOS. TA has radars to detect units and sonar to actually SEE things underwater aswell as detecting. 45) No REALLY long range units. You cannot shell someone from a long distance (siegtanks come closest, but they really don't shoot that far). In the movies in SC they use artillery against a dragoon. 46) Units in SC cannot self destruct. If you don't want that bunker you have to attack it to destroy it. TA has selfdestruct. 47) TA has more lighting effects. When units get hit, their is light. When units explode there is light on other units. When units fire there is light. In SC the only light effects are when a unit fires, and when a nuke goes off. List of mods for TA: Engines: Spring TA:3d Unreal Annihilation Balancers: Uberhack Bugfix XTA TA Works project TA: Devolution TA: Reloaded Thunderball The Pack Warmonger Evolva Models Absolute Annihilation CornCobMan's Mod TA 4.0 TCs: Armoured Typhoon Command and Conquer TA TA Mech wars Axis and Allies TA/Spring Warhammer 40,000 TA Gundam Annihilation Dune TA Operation Barbarossa World Domination Operation Polaris WW2 Reborn Star Wars TA Final Frontier Dark Suns Independance War War at sea Opherium 3 TA: Battle for paradise Total Battletech Epic: Spring Imperial Authority Rock Paper Scissors TA: Method of Desctruction TAAW LOTR: TA Battletanx TA Races: TLL Talon Rumad Rhyoss TJT Mynn Xect AC/DC Argon Aquarians BioHazard Rogue TA-AK UN The Nafilen Addon Unit Packs/Addons: Aftermath design Unit pack MAGMA Pack Micro Pack Raven TA UTASP TAUCP TAUIP Ultimate War Seal Pack GMTA UDG 40 Spider Pack Aerial Assault Force Emergency Pack Starship Pack Total number of Mods: 72 TA has over 5000 single downloadable 3rd party units. List of mods for Starcraft Action Starcraft Aliens VS predator Aqueous Rift Brutkrieg's TC pack Fury of the Ancient Gundam Century Heidomus Kaladonmus NeoTech Open Rebellion Robotech SC Sickel Team fortress Star Trek Dominion War YoshiCraft Project Revolution StarCraft D6 StarWars Shadows of Vengeance NanoWar WormsCraft Total number of Mods: 19 Don't know about single downloadable 3rd party units for SC. TA Awards: Best Game of All Time, PC Games 1998 Gamer's Choice Award, Best Real-Time Strategy Game, PC Gamer 1998 Blister Award Winner, "Best Strategy Game of 1997", Electric Playground 1997 Game of the Year, GameSpot Best Strategy Game of 1997, GameSpot Best Multiplayer Game 1997, GameSpot Best Music 1997, GameSpot 1997 Game of the Year, GameSpot Reader's Choice Awards 1997 Best Strategy Game, GameSpot Reader's Choice Awards 1997 Best War Game, Happy Puppy's Golden Fire Hydrant Award 1997 Best Strategy Game, PC Guru Magazine, Hungary Best RTS Game, GAME.EXE Magazine, Russia 1998 Best Game of the Year 1997, PC Soulces, France Silver Trophy Award, PC Magazine Loisirs, France Top Game Award for Five Consecutive Months, PC Jeux France Best RTS Game 1997, Reader's Choice Award, PC Gamer Online Best Real-Time Strategy Game 1997, Adrenaline Vault Best Strategy Game 1997, Reader's Award, Games Domain 1997 Game of the Year, CompuNews 1997 Best Sound/Music, GamePen Best Strategy Game of 1997, Gamezilla.com Game of the Year, Game Review Central Best Real-Time Strategy Game of 1997, Ultra Game Players Magazine CG Choice Award, Computer Gaming World, 1998 Best of the Best A+ Award, PC Games 1998 Family PC Tested-Recommended, Family PC 1998 Stamp of Approval, Computer Games Strategy Plus Editor's Choice Award 1997, Online Gaming Review Special Achievement in Music 1997, Online Gaming Review Best Game of the Year 1997, Honorable Mention, Online Gaming Review Best Game of 1997, Reader's Knockout Poll Award, Games Domain Review Best PC Game of 1997, Video Games Palace Gaming Product of the Year 1997, MeccaWorld Best Strategy Game of 1997, Gamesmania Gold Player Top-Rated 5 Star Award, PC Games Germany Gold Award, PC Action Germany Top Rated 5 Star Award 1997, PC Gaming World UK Platin Award, PC Power Innovation in Gaming Award 1997, PC Review Editor's Choice Award, Game Worlds Network Editor's Choice Award, Gaming Age Editor's Choice Award 1997, All About Games Awesome! Award 1997, Game Briefs Killer Game Award 1997, The Cheater's Guild OGR Preferred Award, Online Gaming Review X-Picks Dazzler for 1997, Gamecenter Hot! 4 Star Award, GAMERZedge Hands-On Award, PC GamePro Editor's Pick Award 1997, GameSpot Buy Now! Award, San Francisco Guardian Plug & Play Star Player Award, Games Machine GamePower's 4-Lightning Bolt Award 1997 GamePen's Best of E3 Award 1997 Top 12 Games of Autumn, PC Games Europe Hot Property Award 1997, MeccaWorld Total: 55 Starcraft Awards: Greatest Game of All Time - GameSpot Number-one selling PC Game of 1998 - PC Data Game of the Year -- Academy of Interactive Arts and Sciences (AIAS) Game of the Year -- Computer Gaming World Game of the Year -- European Consumer Trade Show Industry Award Game of the Year -- PC Powerplay Game of the Year -- Gamesmania Best Game of the Year -- PCFan Taiwan Gamer's Choice of Game of the Year. -- Chinese Edition of PC Gamer or PC Gamer (China) Hall of Fame -- Gamespy Strategy Game of the Year -- Computer Games Strategy Plus Strategy Game of the Year -- Academy of Interactive Arts and Sciences (AIAS) Real Time Strategy Game of The Year -- PC Gamer Strategy Game of the Year -- Gamespot Strategy Game of the Year -- Games Domain Strategy Game of the Year -- Gamesmania Best Real Time Strategy Game - Editor's Choice -- Gamezilla Best Real Time Strategy Game - Reader's Choice -- Gamezilla Best Real Time Strategy Game - Reader's Choice -- Gamecenter Best Real Time Strategy Game - Reader's Choice -- Duelist Magazine Best Real-Time Strategy Title -- PCFan Mulitplayer Game of The Year - 1999 Milia Awards Multiplayer Game of the Year -- Gamecenter Mulitplayer Game of The Year -- The Gamers Net Best Multiplayer Title -- PCFan Best New Multiplayer Online Game -- 1999 Codie Awards Best use of Online Multiplayer Gaming (Editor Award) -- HotGames.com Best Online Game - Reader's Choice -- Duelist Magazine Special Achievement Award - Best Story -- Gamespot Special Achievement Award - Best Multiplayer Game -- Gamespot Best use of Sound in a Computer Game (Reader Award) -- HotGames.com #1 Reader's Top 50 -- PC Gamer Best Depth -- PC Accelerator 5 out of 5 Stars Editor's Choice-- Computer Gaming World 5 out of 5 Gameworthy Rating -- C/NET Gamecenter 9.4 out of 10 -- Online Game Review 92% Editors Choice -- PC Gamer 4.5 out of 5 star rating - Computer games Strategy Plus 5 out of 5 star rating - Mac 3D Total Action 9.1 out of 10 rating -- Gamespot A+ -- Gameweek 4 out of 4 star rating - USA Today From: http://www.supcomuniverse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=510 Made me chuckle. That forum post made my blood boil. | ||
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Klockan3
Sweden2866 Posts
On September 10 2007 08:33 MyLostTemple wrote: interesting discussion, there are a few things that need to be cleared up 1) everyone needs to stop saying 'pros can't even play perfect games.' just because you saw some random FPVOD of a pro with bad macro doesn't suddenly prove that pros are incapable of playing perfect games. I've sat behind iloveoov and watched him play five tvz games in a row perfectly. Believe me, i was looking for EVERYTHING. He never missed a beat. I can say the same with Savior, i even saw him play a perfect game with protoss. That doesn't mean that these people haven't screwed up games when under tremendious pressure, and they're definitely not interested in competing on a game with lower standards. Wouldn't it be great to see savior oov and nal ra all tearing it up on SC2? 2) yes grubby has said that wc3 has major issues on the competitive level, mainly because there's not enough tasks for the players to juggle, instead randomness can take over. That doesn't mean he hates the game, it means he's recognized a heavy flaw in it. We discussed this at Blizzcon while playing SC2. 3) Lets get one thing straight, if you've played as much as Nony, or any other top American player, you know it's not impossible to maxed fast while keeping up in upgrades, out microing your opponent and out thinking him. It just takes A LOT of practice. That's a good thing for esports. Here's SC on the competitive scene compared to baseball: Not only do you have to run to the bases as fast as you can, steal bases, you have to hit a baseball that can be coming at any speed and at some very strange angles, this is what makes baseball so good. It's a very difficult sport to fully master. For some people, hitting the ball is to hard, so we let them play tee ball. Now all you have to do is run to the bases and know when to steal. Unfortunately tee ball is not respected the same way baseball is, mainly because teeball is much easier. Don't turn our sport into tee ball 4) If any magazine is ignorant enough to critisize the lack of MBS in competitive play, i'm sure TL.net will mail the shit out of them and make sure they are made awear of their errors. You got it all wrong, heres starcraft: ![[image loading]](http://www.mdravens.org/softb11.jpg) Now, wheelchair baseball isnt as fun to watch as normal baseball simply beacuse seeing handicapped players isnt as fun as seeing players playing to their full potential. | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
On September 10 2007 08:43 Klockan3 wrote: They arent making the pro level game easier, theyre making the pro level game harder by adding a lot of shit to do since pros dont have as much use for mbs and autorally as noobs, at the same time they make the noob level game easier by adding stuff such as this. I assume you mean switching around add ons on production buildings. You would only do that once or twice a game. But the ratio between those is so incredibly off I am kind of doubting if you really meant that. But I can't imagine what other 'a lot of shit' is added to macro. | ||
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mdainoob
United States51 Posts
QFT. It fucking hurt to read that post. The stupidity and ignorance stings. Throughout the thread orangedude brought up some good points for pro-mbs. However, I would still really really prefer to have no mbs and no automining. I like sc1 a lot, and it'd be great if sc2 could utilise the same system that worked so well in the original along with its new features. Haha i love the pics in tasteless' golf and baseball analogies. I agree with what anti-mbs and automing people say on the issue, that it contributes to making the game more exciting, adrenaline pumping, and fun. It's not the only thing of course, but it is a major one. Too bad idiots like the guy who posted on supcomuniverse and newb game reviewers who really don't know shit are gonna get in the way  Too bad competitive rts gamers like those on tl.net are far in the minority... | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
On September 10 2007 08:51 Klockan3 wrote: You got it all wrong, heres starcraft: [...] Now, wheelchair baseball isnt as fun to watch as normal baseball simply beacuse seeing handicapped players isnt as fun as seeing players playing to their full potential. Hahahaha... I doubt he will accept that watching Savior play SC is like watching someone who is handicapped. | ||
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Klockan3
Sweden2866 Posts
On September 10 2007 08:56 BlackStar wrote: Yeah i know it was over the top a bit, but mbs and all other UI improvements doesnt change the game much anyway but overall its like the baseball players would be forsed to play with sand in their shoes, making all their actions a bit less fluid. Or if someone always had a big lamp blinding the hitter so its hard to see the ball, to make it harder to hit it.Hahahaha... I doubt he will accept that watching Savior play SC is like watching someone who is handicapped. His analogy fits better when you compare starcraft vanilla with moneymaps btw, moneymaps removing a large part of the actual game wich is everything that has to do with expansions, same as how T-ball removes the pitching part. My analogy fits this perfectly however, since wheelchair baseball use the same rules as normal baseball but with the limitations of wheelchairs. Same is sc2 using the same rules as starcraft but withouth the same UI limitations. On September 10 2007 08:54 BlackStar wrote: I assume you mean switching around add ons on production buildings. You would only do that once or twice a game. But the ratio between those is so incredibly off I am kind of doubting if you really meant that. But I can't imagine what other 'a lot of shit' is added to macro. On the top of my head: Thors being built by scv's making them cumbersome to make. Reapers being bought instead of built. The starport will require a lot of macro when moving around and building, when you at the same time want it near the frontlines to recharge energy. A good player wont build more addons than necesary, switching the tech addon around to get the right uppgrades and switching both the power and the tech to the unit type currently being made, so if he needs air he removes the factories for the starports etc, this will only be usefull earlygame and later when you dont have time youll get addons for all of them. The above things, especially the moving around buildings, can take a ton of time if used to its fullest degree, and will allow the terran to have an army production flexibility somewere in between toss and zerg. | ||
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Infundibulum
United States2552 Posts
On September 10 2007 08:33 MyLostTemple wrote: 2) yes grubby has said that wc3 has major issues on the competitive level, mainly because there's not enough tasks for the players to juggle, instead randomness can take over. That doesn't mean he hates the game, it means he's recognized a heavy flaw in it. We discussed this at Blizzcon while playing SC2. I just have a question about this point. Admittedly, I don't know much about WC3, but wouldn't this fact ("not enough tasks to juggle") be due more to the fact that in WC3, units have high hp and low damage (low mortality), players tend to restrict unit production so as to stay within an upkeep level, and many spells are autocasted? I think these are the facts that tend to lead to players microing a hero and ~10 units while staying under 50 food (spending gold on items and upgs) with 2-3 production buildings for a good portion of the game, rather than the MBS system. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems the point you brought up has less to do with MBS than with the actual balance/gameplay (not sure if thats the word i'm looking for) of WC3. Also what did you mean by 'randomness'? also, in my opinion, automining has the potential to be much worse than MBS, but that's not what this thread is about....  | ||
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ImgGartok
United States216 Posts
On September 10 2007 08:31 Brutalisk wrote: Everyone should also remember that SC2 does not equal SC+MBS, which probably would be imbalanced (any change to SC would probably imbalance it). SC2 is being designed from the beginning on with MBS in it, and it will eventually be balanced with MBS. Exactly. | ||
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Aphelion
United States2720 Posts
Everyone also needs to remember SC2 is also a sequel of SC, and that RTSes can only deviate so much from it without being a total piece of modern shit. And also remember that your hypothetical "alternative macro tasks" are completely unfleshed out and basically non-existent. | ||
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Klockan3
Sweden2866 Posts
On September 10 2007 09:21 Aphelion wrote: Everyone also needs to remember SC2 is also a sequel of SC, and that RTSes can only deviate so much from it without being a total piece of modern shit. And also remember that your hypothetical "alternative macro tasks" are completely unfleshed out and basically non-existent. Everyone also need to remember that sequels usually come with the UI enhancements that is proper for its time of release, while keeping the same theme of gameplay as its preceder. If the game doesnt noone will like it since the fans of the old titel will hate it since it deviates from the old titel, and new players will hate the lack of proper UI. | ||
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Aphelion
United States2720 Posts
On September 10 2007 09:30 Klockan3 wrote: Everyone also need to remember that sequels usually come with the UI enhancements that is proper for its time of release, while keeping the same theme of gameplay as its preceder. Everyone also needs to remember that every single one of those RTSes and sequels have been POSes compared to SC. | ||
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Klockan3
Sweden2866 Posts
On September 10 2007 09:31 Aphelion wrote: Everyone also needs to remember that every single one of those RTSes and sequels have been POSes compared to SC. But you know: 1: Blizzard made starcraft. 2: Blizzard hasnt tried to recreate the gameplay of starcraft before, and noone else have the dedication to make a game as good as starcraft so all the starcraft clones failed and are now forgotten. 3: Since we only have starcraft wich plays like starcraft you cant point at any game as proof that its bad since none of them were made by blizzard as a starcraft game, warcraft 3 were made as a rpg/rts with small battles wich is why it plays like it does, it has nothing to do with the UI. 4: Now since we know that we cant know the effects of the UI changes, why shouldnt blizzard go with the option that gives the most sales and largest playerbase? Since we know for a fact that a lot more people will get turned off by the dated UI than hardcore fans wich for some reason wont buy it just beacuse of the UI improvements. | ||
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fgsvsd
Switzerland348 Posts
On September 10 2007 07:34 fuglyfrog wrote: That thread is made of so much stupid, you could knit a sock covering only half the toes with it.I think this pretty much sums up the mentality of the "rts community": + Show Spoiler + 47 Reasons TA is better than Starcraft 1) Starcraft only has 84 units, over half of which are buildings and their add-ons! Total Annihilation has over 250. 2) In Starcraft, only 12 units can be in a group at once. Note that this was claimed to help "prevent rushing", not that it really does because you can just hotkey groups of units. Of course, Total Annihilation has no limit. 3) In Starcraft, a maximum of five units can be built at once by each building except Zerg, who can only build three and only at certain times. Total Annihilation has no limit. 4) In Starcraft, only nine commands can be given to one unit at once and you can't see what has been queued or in what order, nor can you undo any queued commands and the commands can only be spells or movement orders. In Total Annihilation there is no limit, and you are shown exactly what each unit will do and in what order and you can undo and redo any of the commands in any order. 5) In Starcraft, when a construction unit builds a structure, or a unit plant builds a unit, no other units can help construct, hence the build speed cannot be augmented in any way. In Total Annihilation, you can have as many units as you want help construct buildings and units to speed it up. (Note that even in WarCraft II, you could make an extra peon help build a structure.) 6) There are a limited number of resources on any given Starcraft map. Total Annihilation has no limit. However, when making a map, you can simulate the 'limited resources' concept by restricting all resource units (Solar Collectors, Metal Extractors etc.), and place lots of debris, rocks, and trees. That way you will have to reclaim them, much like in gathering your resources in Starcraft. 7) In Starcraft, you can select all units of the same type, but only on the screen, and only 12 of them. CTRL-Z in Total Annihilation selects all units of that type on the map. 8) Starcraft has no water units whatsoever. In Total Annihilation, you can build entire bases on or under the water! 9) In Starcraft, there is no way to reclaim the minerals of dead units, buildings, and incomplete buildings (not that there is any debris from buildings, of course, as it "magically disappears"). In Total Annihilation, all destroyed units and buildings leave behind scrap metal which can be extracted and reused. You can even extract the metal from operational units and buildings, friend or foe. 10) In Starcraft, all units see in a circular radius, with small line of sight restrictions from large mountains. In Total Annihilation, you can choose between circular line of sight as in Starcraft, permanent line of sight as in Command & Conquer or true line of sight, where units cannot see through walls or over cliffs. 11) In Starcraft, all units shoot in a circular radius, including through wall and over cliffs. The projectiles are not effected by elevation, wind, or gravity. Total Annihilation uses true physics to determine the path of projectiles. 12) In Starcraft, the only change in elevation is onto plateaus and bridges and such, but you're not really "above" anyone as far as the game is concerned. Total Annihilation has everything from small hills to huge mountains that affect the game dramatically. 13) You can not see the energy of a unit unless it is selected in Starcraft. In Total Annihilation, you can see the remaining armour of all units on the screen at once, or turn that off if you prefer more atmosphere. 14) In Starcraft, aircraft can not land. In Total Annihilation, not only do aircraft land, but some can do so underwater. 15) The music in Starcraft is all played on a synthesizer. The music in Total Annihilation is played by a real orchestra and if you prefer, you can put in different CDs and play anything you want. 16) In Starcraft, you can't deselect your selected unit ever, unless they die or go into a assimilator/extractor! In Total Annihilation, you can always deselect everything by right clicking. 17) Right clicking in Starcraft uses "smart commands," but left clicking only uses commands that have been selected. In Total Annihilation, left clicking uses "smart commands," unless you have a command selected. Then it uses that command. Right clicking deselects. Note that you can change the mouse settings in the options window in TA to mimic that of StarCraft. 18) In Starcraft, the only way to have a unit hold fire is to move him around or to ally with the enemy. In Total Annihilation, you can set units to hold fire, to return fire only, or to fire at will. 19) At a Starcraft unit constructing building, the only command you can give units built there is a rally point. In Total Annihilation, you can tell units where to go and set waypoints; you can have them hold fire, return fire, or fire at will; and you can have them hold position, maneuver, or roam at their destination. You can even set them to a patrol route before they exit the building! 20) StarCraft only has one construction unit. Total Annihilation has nine different construction units. Each of them can build different types of structures at varying speeds. 21) With the spawned version of Starcraft, you can only play a game hosted by the person with the CD that you used to install StarCraft. In Total Annihilation, with the spawn, you can play any multiplayer game, so long as the CDlayer ratio is at least 1:3. 22) With Starcraft online games, you have to play IPX simulated games on the internet, so you cannot use IP addresses. In Total Annihilation, you can be the server which cuts out the middle man and speeds up games, but if you want, you can always choose to play with simulated IPX. 23) In Starcraft, flying units do not fly; they hover. They are more like flying vehicles. All air units in Total Annihilation use a physics engine to determine the flight path, really bank, and do not stop in mid air like all flying units in Starcraft. 24) Projectiles in Starcraft always hit their target and do damage, whether it appears so or not. Projectiles in Total Annihilation use a physics engine to determine whether they hit or miss their targets and the damage is determined by how close the explosion was to the target. 25) Units in Starcraft cannot fire while moving. If you set them to, every unit in Total Annihilation will automatically aim and fire at enemy units in range, moving or not. This is great for hit and run missions or 'driveby shootings'. 26) Many weapons in Starcraft do not have projectiles. For example, there is a siege tank with its massive artillery shells and marines' gauss rifles that travel at infinite velocity, and then the explosion just appears on the target. Every weapon in Total Annihilation fires a projectile using a physics engine that determines how to hit the target. 27) In Starcraft the largest maps are 256x256. Total Annihilation has maps at least four times that size, for longer and more thought out strategies. 28) In Starcraft there are only two ways to get resources - mining minerals and vespene gas. In Total Annihilation there are several ways to get resources. You can reclaim plants and rocks, you can use metal extractors, metal makers, many different energy producers, and most units produce a bit of energy themselves. 29) In Starcraft if your hatchery/command center/nexus is destroyed, you keep your resources somehow, so that marine had better have deep pockets. In Total Annihilation your Commander stores all your metal and energy, so if he dies you lose most of your resources. You can also build metal and energy storage facilities so you can have a higher maximum resources capacity. Construction plants and several units also store resources. 30) Starcraft has crystals and vespene geysers growing out of the surface of space stations. Total Annihilation drills the metal out of the space station. 31) The Starcraft storyline in the manual states that the Protoss race teleport all their prebuilt buildings and warriors from the Aiur (The Protoss homeworld). However, when fighting a battle on Aiur, the Protoss gain no advantage whatsoever. In non-campaign maps TA does not include the homeworlds and therefore does not have to deal with this problem. 32) In Starcraft a marine can shoot a burrowed Zergling on the other side of a mountain wall past a barracks behind a tree underneath a Siege tank with pinpoint accuracy! In Total Annihilation you cannot. 33) In Starcraft, you cannot choose your colour. It is selected for you randomly. You are just as likely to get purple or yellow as something you want. In TA, you have a choice of ten different colours, including black. 34) Starcraft has no way at all to get new units/structures into the game, other than expansion sets, because the units are hard coded into the StarCraft engine. Total Annihilation's game engine was built specifically to load units found in the directory. When booting up the game it searches the directory and says "Oh a new unit, I'll just add him in here!" and you can then play with it normally. You can also download new units online that were posted at Cavedog's website weekly, and from many others. 35) Multiplayer lag in Starcraft is presented by the game momentarily pausing and commands being delayed by up to five seconds. Lag in Total Annihilation multiplayer simply slows the game down. 36) In Starcraft it's harder to control your units because of the unsatisfactory unit AI. For example, when trying to move a dragoon up stairs he will move jerkily up the stairs, and then decide to go back down and try to go onto the higher platform in a different way. You have to manually click for each step you want him to take. In Total Annihilation units go where you want, when you want, in the most efficient way possible most of the time. 37) In Starcraft when you initially set up the game to host, you can not change the settings when the game has been hosted. If you decide you want to play a different map, you have to completely rehost the game. IIn Total Annihilation you can change all of the settings (except for game name) while the game is being hosted, and then view the settings even while in the middle of the game. 38) In Starcraft if you want to restrict units from play, must build a custom scenario and disable the desired units for each player. In Total Annihilation, when hosting the game, meaning you can edit the unit restrictions with a few clicks you can limit the number of that unit available in the game at any time by one player, or completely prevent them from being used altogether. Other players in the game can also view the unit limits/restrictions. 39) In Starcraft all of the super weapons (nuclear missiles, psionic storms) are impossible to stop after they are casted/lauched. In Total Annihilation, you can build missile defense systems which fire anti-nukes and takes out the missile in mid air before it reaches your base. Note that the antinukes also take out other ICBMs and you can build mobile versions. 40) In Total Annihilation, most weapons as well as units are an object in the game, meaning that a Big Bertha could very well hit a bomber flying past or a nuke could hit a fighter flying overhead. In Starcraft, all weapons are mere graphical effects, and nothing like this can ever happen. 41) In SC a unit armed with more than one weapon (wraith, goliath, scout) cannot shoot both of them. In TA, units can have up to 3 weapons and can fire all at once. 42) Units do not decrease in spee when going up an incline, neither do they tilt or do anything neat. 43) Units in SC do not explode when they die. They have a pretty graphic placed on them, then they disappear, doing no damage to their surroundings. TA units can give off huge explosions, small explosions or normal explosions, all which send debris and unit pieces flying away, depending on the damage taken. 44) No radar in SC. All that you have to detect things with are LOS. TA has radars to detect units and sonar to actually SEE things underwater aswell as detecting. 45) No REALLY long range units. You cannot shell someone from a long distance (siegtanks come closest, but they really don't shoot that far). In the movies in SC they use artillery against a dragoon. 46) Units in SC cannot self destruct. If you don't want that bunker you have to attack it to destroy it. TA has selfdestruct. 47) TA has more lighting effects. When units get hit, their is light. When units explode there is light on other units. When units fire there is light. In SC the only light effects are when a unit fires, and when a nuke goes off. List of mods for TA: Engines: Spring TA:3d Unreal Annihilation Balancers: Uberhack Bugfix XTA TA Works project TA: Devolution TA: Reloaded Thunderball The Pack Warmonger Evolva Models Absolute Annihilation CornCobMan's Mod TA 4.0 TCs: Armoured Typhoon Command and Conquer TA TA Mech wars Axis and Allies TA/Spring Warhammer 40,000 TA Gundam Annihilation Dune TA Operation Barbarossa World Domination Operation Polaris WW2 Reborn Star Wars TA Final Frontier Dark Suns Independance War War at sea Opherium 3 TA: Battle for paradise Total Battletech Epic: Spring Imperial Authority Rock Paper Scissors TA: Method of Desctruction TAAW LOTR: TA Battletanx TA Races: TLL Talon Rumad Rhyoss TJT Mynn Xect AC/DC Argon Aquarians BioHazard Rogue TA-AK UN The Nafilen Addon Unit Packs/Addons: Aftermath design Unit pack MAGMA Pack Micro Pack Raven TA UTASP TAUCP TAUIP Ultimate War Seal Pack GMTA UDG 40 Spider Pack Aerial Assault Force Emergency Pack Starship Pack Total number of Mods: 72 TA has over 5000 single downloadable 3rd party units. List of mods for Starcraft Action Starcraft Aliens VS predator Aqueous Rift Brutkrieg's TC pack Fury of the Ancient Gundam Century Heidomus Kaladonmus NeoTech Open Rebellion Robotech SC Sickel Team fortress Star Trek Dominion War YoshiCraft Project Revolution StarCraft D6 StarWars Shadows of Vengeance NanoWar WormsCraft Total number of Mods: 19 Don't know about single downloadable 3rd party units for SC. TA Awards: Best Game of All Time, PC Games 1998 Gamer's Choice Award, Best Real-Time Strategy Game, PC Gamer 1998 Blister Award Winner, "Best Strategy Game of 1997", Electric Playground 1997 Game of the Year, GameSpot Best Strategy Game of 1997, GameSpot Best Multiplayer Game 1997, GameSpot Best Music 1997, GameSpot 1997 Game of the Year, GameSpot Reader's Choice Awards 1997 Best Strategy Game, GameSpot Reader's Choice Awards 1997 Best War Game, Happy Puppy's Golden Fire Hydrant Award 1997 Best Strategy Game, PC Guru Magazine, Hungary Best RTS Game, GAME.EXE Magazine, Russia 1998 Best Game of the Year 1997, PC Soulces, France Silver Trophy Award, PC Magazine Loisirs, France Top Game Award for Five Consecutive Months, PC Jeux France Best RTS Game 1997, Reader's Choice Award, PC Gamer Online Best Real-Time Strategy Game 1997, Adrenaline Vault Best Strategy Game 1997, Reader's Award, Games Domain 1997 Game of the Year, CompuNews 1997 Best Sound/Music, GamePen Best Strategy Game of 1997, Gamezilla.com Game of the Year, Game Review Central Best Real-Time Strategy Game of 1997, Ultra Game Players Magazine CG Choice Award, Computer Gaming World, 1998 Best of the Best A+ Award, PC Games 1998 Family PC Tested-Recommended, Family PC 1998 Stamp of Approval, Computer Games Strategy Plus Editor's Choice Award 1997, Online Gaming Review Special Achievement in Music 1997, Online Gaming Review Best Game of the Year 1997, Honorable Mention, Online Gaming Review Best Game of 1997, Reader's Knockout Poll Award, Games Domain Review Best PC Game of 1997, Video Games Palace Gaming Product of the Year 1997, MeccaWorld Best Strategy Game of 1997, Gamesmania Gold Player Top-Rated 5 Star Award, PC Games Germany Gold Award, PC Action Germany Top Rated 5 Star Award 1997, PC Gaming World UK Platin Award, PC Power Innovation in Gaming Award 1997, PC Review Editor's Choice Award, Game Worlds Network Editor's Choice Award, Gaming Age Editor's Choice Award 1997, All About Games Awesome! Award 1997, Game Briefs Killer Game Award 1997, The Cheater's Guild OGR Preferred Award, Online Gaming Review X-Picks Dazzler for 1997, Gamecenter Hot! 4 Star Award, GAMERZedge Hands-On Award, PC GamePro Editor's Pick Award 1997, GameSpot Buy Now! Award, San Francisco Guardian Plug & Play Star Player Award, Games Machine GamePower's 4-Lightning Bolt Award 1997 GamePen's Best of E3 Award 1997 Top 12 Games of Autumn, PC Games Europe Hot Property Award 1997, MeccaWorld Total: 55 Starcraft Awards: Greatest Game of All Time - GameSpot Number-one selling PC Game of 1998 - PC Data Game of the Year -- Academy of Interactive Arts and Sciences (AIAS) Game of the Year -- Computer Gaming World Game of the Year -- European Consumer Trade Show Industry Award Game of the Year -- PC Powerplay Game of the Year -- Gamesmania Best Game of the Year -- PCFan Taiwan Gamer's Choice of Game of the Year. -- Chinese Edition of PC Gamer or PC Gamer (China) Hall of Fame -- Gamespy Strategy Game of the Year -- Computer Games Strategy Plus Strategy Game of the Year -- Academy of Interactive Arts and Sciences (AIAS) Real Time Strategy Game of The Year -- PC Gamer Strategy Game of the Year -- Gamespot Strategy Game of the Year -- Games Domain Strategy Game of the Year -- Gamesmania Best Real Time Strategy Game - Editor's Choice -- Gamezilla Best Real Time Strategy Game - Reader's Choice -- Gamezilla Best Real Time Strategy Game - Reader's Choice -- Gamecenter Best Real Time Strategy Game - Reader's Choice -- Duelist Magazine Best Real-Time Strategy Title -- PCFan Mulitplayer Game of The Year - 1999 Milia Awards Multiplayer Game of the Year -- Gamecenter Mulitplayer Game of The Year -- The Gamers Net Best Multiplayer Title -- PCFan Best New Multiplayer Online Game -- 1999 Codie Awards Best use of Online Multiplayer Gaming (Editor Award) -- HotGames.com Best Online Game - Reader's Choice -- Duelist Magazine Special Achievement Award - Best Story -- Gamespot Special Achievement Award - Best Multiplayer Game -- Gamespot Best use of Sound in a Computer Game (Reader Award) -- HotGames.com #1 Reader's Top 50 -- PC Gamer Best Depth -- PC Accelerator 5 out of 5 Stars Editor's Choice-- Computer Gaming World 5 out of 5 Gameworthy Rating -- C/NET Gamecenter 9.4 out of 10 -- Online Game Review 92% Editors Choice -- PC Gamer 4.5 out of 5 star rating - Computer games Strategy Plus 5 out of 5 star rating - Mac 3D Total Action 9.1 out of 10 rating -- Gamespot A+ -- Gameweek 4 out of 4 star rating - USA Today From: http://www.supcomuniverse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=510 Made me chuckle. There are two major reasons for why StarCraft did sell so well in spite of its shortcomings: Ouch.1) Blizzard is quite a large company and they could really push the game 2) It is pretty simple to learn and, yes, even master - ergo, it's more popular because people don't get their dicks chopped off like they would with a challenging game. ha, StarCraft is a nice game but it lacks some HUGE thing, that is of course, Strategy (sold it after I finished the campaings). ......... | ||
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Aphelion
United States2720 Posts
On September 10 2007 09:35 Klockan3 wrote: But you know: 1: Blizzard made starcraft. 2: Blizzard hasnt tried to recreate the gameplay of starcraft before, and noone else have the dedication to make a game as good as starcraft so all the starcraft clones failed and are now forgotten. 3: Since we only have starcraft wich plays like starcraft you cant point at any game as proof that its bad since none of them were made by blizzard as a starcraft game, warcraft 3 were made as a rpg/rts with small battles wich is why it plays like it does, it has nothing to do with the UI. 4: Now since we know that we cant know the effects of the UI changes, why shouldnt blizzard go with the option that gives the most sales and largest playerbase? 1.) Blizzard also made Warcraft 3. 2.) Which is why we are in unexplored territory, and rules which applied for previous sequels are trends they carved out are just as much to be avoided as to be adopted. 3.) You also don't have any proof that it doesn't. And this entire forum last few days have been filled with very good arguments by veteran players why it does make a difference. 4.) SC2 will have sales regardless. And Blizzard should go with the option which makes the game play the best, because that is what gives a game longevity. Noobs who can't play a non-MBS game won't form a long term playerbase. | ||
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Fuu
198 Posts
On September 10 2007 09:30 Klockan3 wrote: Everyone also need to remember that sequels usually come with the UI enhancements that is proper for its time of release, while keeping the same theme of gameplay as its preceder. If the game doesnt noone will like it since the fans of the old titel will hate it since it deviates from the old titel, and new players will hate the lack of proper UI. Proper UI ... I like how you assume that it's proper UI when the most successful RTS game to date has not this UI, and all the other shits since 98 present it. Maybe you think it's not correlated, as you seem to know shit about starcraft. Obviously it is. I'm 120 APM player so i'm not even trying to defend my case, but the success of starcraft and this 'outdated' UI are correlated. Since when do you play the game ? What's your level ? What's your age ? All these information are precious to grasp your level of understanding on why it's such a good game. Your registration to the TL forums in july only to spread your shitty advices is annoying. SC2 doesn't need you. Actually, only the financial department of Blizzard may find you useful. | ||
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akast
Australia11 Posts
What SC2 adds is a shift in focus. The players will use their APM in battles, rather than in base management. This is where the exciting action will take place. Who gets excited seeing some dude rallying his workers to mine in record time?? Geez some of posters here make it seem like they would like SC2 to be in binary form so they can WTFPWN their opponents with 500+APM. | ||
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Aphelion
United States2720 Posts
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