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Why MBS Is Essential To a Competitive SC2 - Page 8

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ImgGartok
Profile Joined August 2007
United States216 Posts
September 10 2007 00:56 GMT
#141
On September 10 2007 09:31 Aphelion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 10 2007 09:30 Klockan3 wrote:
On September 10 2007 09:21 Aphelion wrote:
On September 10 2007 09:10 Oc wrote:
On September 10 2007 08:31 Brutalisk wrote:
Everyone should also remember that SC2 does not equal SC+MBS, which probably would be imbalanced (any change to SC would probably imbalance it).
SC2 is being designed from the beginning on with MBS in it, and it will eventually be balanced with MBS.


Exactly.


Everyone also needs to remember SC2 is also a sequel of SC, and that RTSes can only deviate so much from it without being a total piece of modern shit. And also remember that your hypothetical "alternative macro tasks" are completely unfleshed out and basically non-existent.

Everyone also need to remember that sequels usually come with the UI enhancements that is proper for its time of release, while keeping the same theme of gameplay as its preceder.


Everyone also needs to remember that every single one of those RTSes and sequels have been POSes compared to SC.


They were POSes because of terrible balance and terrible ideas, not because of a superior UI. Peaced
Aphelion
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States2720 Posts
September 10 2007 00:57 GMT
#142
The UI is intimately associated with the game philosophy. The other games valued easy mass production, automated economy, and "big picture" game play. SC is about constant action and you playing the game yourself. That is reflected in the UI.
But Garimto was always more than just a Protoss...
Fuu
Profile Joined May 2006
198 Posts
September 10 2007 01:03 GMT
#143
On September 10 2007 09:51 akast wrote:
I really hope that most pros here don't think that advanced 'dexterity' was what made SC1 so much better from other games. Any RTS game can have a really bad user interface that will require an abnormal APM to play the game properly and require an inordinate amount of dexterity, not just SC1.

What SC2 adds is a shift in focus. The players will use their APM in battles, rather than in base management. This is where the exciting action will take place. Who gets excited seeing some dude rallying his workers to mine in record time??

Geez some of posters here make it seem like they would like SC2 to be in binary form so they can WTFPWN their opponents with 500+APM.


OMG, it's a lost war.

For each post you take the time to write, there is a new registration + 1st post of someone like this genius T.T
Aphelion
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States2720 Posts
September 10 2007 01:06 GMT
#144
Yea, fuck this. I almost wish that Blizzard never announced SC2 until its released, so we can be spared from this massive influx of suck.
But Garimto was always more than just a Protoss...
akast
Profile Joined September 2007
Australia11 Posts
September 10 2007 01:13 GMT
#145
LOL.

I'm guessing most you blokes will stick to Project Revolution since so many of you are put off by new features in SC2.
Aphelion
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States2720 Posts
September 10 2007 01:16 GMT
#146
I will be sticking to BW if SC2 isn't to my liking. It will kill me to see the community to flock over to SC2, but I guess I'll be like one of those diehard War2 players.

Its precisely the fear of that that I keep posting in this forum, even though it really annoys me.
But Garimto was always more than just a Protoss...
Brutalisk
Profile Joined February 2007
794 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-09-10 01:19:23
September 10 2007 01:18 GMT
#147
By now, everyone is repeating the same arguments again and again, just written differently.
mahnini
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
United States6862 Posts
September 10 2007 01:18 GMT
#148
On September 10 2007 10:13 akast wrote:
LOL.

I'm guessing most you blokes will stick to Project Revolution since so many of you are put off by new features in SC2.

I don't think you understand. Here at TeamLiquid we value quality posts that contain reason and evidence (or lots of funnies). And you're posting useless trash in one of the SC2 forums most debated topics.
the world's a playground. you know that when you're a kid, but somewhere along the way everyone forgets it.
akast
Profile Joined September 2007
Australia11 Posts
September 10 2007 01:18 GMT
#149
Why are you so afraid of change...

If you're really pro, you'd adapt to new situations within SC2.
orangedude
Profile Joined April 2007
Canada220 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-09-10 01:21:43
September 10 2007 01:19 GMT
#150
On September 10 2007 09:39 Aphelion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 10 2007 09:35 Klockan3 wrote:
On September 10 2007 09:31 Aphelion wrote:
On September 10 2007 09:30 Klockan3 wrote:
On September 10 2007 09:21 Aphelion wrote:
On September 10 2007 09:10 Oc wrote:
On September 10 2007 08:31 Brutalisk wrote:
Everyone should also remember that SC2 does not equal SC+MBS, which probably would be imbalanced (any change to SC would probably imbalance it).
SC2 is being designed from the beginning on with MBS in it, and it will eventually be balanced with MBS.


Exactly.


Everyone also needs to remember SC2 is also a sequel of SC, and that RTSes can only deviate so much from it without being a total piece of modern shit. And also remember that your hypothetical "alternative macro tasks" are completely unfleshed out and basically non-existent.

Everyone also need to remember that sequels usually come with the UI enhancements that is proper for its time of release, while keeping the same theme of gameplay as its preceder.


Everyone also needs to remember that every single one of those RTSes and sequels have been POSes compared to SC.

But you know:
1: Blizzard made starcraft.
2: Blizzard hasnt tried to recreate the gameplay of starcraft before, and noone else have the dedication to make a game as good as starcraft so all the starcraft clones failed and are now forgotten.
3: Since we only have starcraft wich plays like starcraft you cant point at any game as proof that its bad since none of them were made by blizzard as a starcraft game, warcraft 3 were made as a rpg/rts with small battles wich is why it plays like it does, it has nothing to do with the UI.
4: Now since we know that we cant know the effects of the UI changes, why shouldnt blizzard go with the option that gives the most sales and largest playerbase?


1.) Blizzard also made Warcraft 3.
2.) Which is why we are in unexplored territory, and rules which applied for previous sequels are trends they carved out are just as much to be avoided as to be adopted.
3.) You also don't have any proof that it doesn't. And this entire forum last few days have been filled with very good arguments by veteran players why it does make a difference.
4.) SC2 will have sales regardless. And Blizzard should go with the option which makes the game play the best, because that is what gives a game longevity. Noobs who can't play a non-MBS game won't form a long term playerbase.


1) You make it seem like War3 is a failure, when it's actually bigger outside of Korea than SC (especially in China). Some people prefer micro over macro and those people play War3. Others prefer macro over micro and play SC. Both are excellent games.
2) We are in unexplored territory, so we should just sit back and not change anything? Then why is Blizzard making SC2. They should just print a 2 on the old SC boxes, and rely on their name and brand recognition to sell itself.
3) There have been very good points (and some shitty ones) from BOTH sides, not just the veterans.
4) Refer to my OP. All pros were once noobs. Pros don't appear from thin air. Pros come naturally with a large enough noob fanbase.

I will also quote this post from earlier again.
On September 09 2007 13:53 orangedude wrote:
The fact that most RTS's have failed is absolutely not due to MBS and automining. There are many more obvious reasons for their apparent lack of longevity. The primary reason why almost every other RTS does not reach the level of success of Blizzard's is because they are not made with as much love and care. Blizzard puts much thought into every aspect of their RTS franchise, and spends an enormous time designing, redesigning, balancing, and again rebalancing until they are completely and utterly satisfied with their work. You should all know this by now and can see it in their design process for SC2. Imbalances and exploits are even patched for years AFTER the game is released to keep gameplay continually fresh. No other company in existence does this.

Every other RTS from every other company released so far (excluding mirror races) have major imbalances in their game (e.g. C&C tank rushes, superweapons, etc). Any patches often only fix technical issues, and rarely address gameplay. This is a problem, because any large imbalance in a strategy game immediately causes the strategical game metatype to become entirely one dimensional (this has even happened after many years to several matchups in SC to an extent: ZvZ, TvT). People start building the same mix of units every game, because it is the strongest/most effective/least counterable.

However, the fact that strategies are still evolving in SC even after TEN years is a testament to how well balanced Blizzard designed SC. I do not believe this is luck, but more of a product of hard work and talent. In this area SC also outshines War3, as many matchups became strategically stale in only a few years (not completely Blizzard's fault either since 4 races + heroes are MUCH harder to balance than 3 races with only units)

Finally, again my main point is that just because a feature is common to games of recent years that do not achieve the same success as SC, does NOT mean that this feature is intrinsically bad. I'm sure this has been brought up a ton of times in another thread called "Just because it's in War3, doesn't mean it sucks". For example, no reasonable person is going to argue that better cinematics (common to most games now) is a bad thing just because it's in all these games that do suck. This is simply an industry standard, in the same way that MBS/automining is now an RTS standard. If you don't have this feature, MOST people are not going to be pleased. That is a simple truth.

We should be instead focusing on ways to make up for the addition of MBS/automining with additional macro ideas rather than opposing its inclusion into SC2, because we might actually profoundly improve the game as a result of our ideas. How fucking awesome would it be, if one of YOUR ideas was implemented into SC2, the game that millions of people will be playing worldwide?

I am fairly sure (90%, I'll take bets) that Blizzard will end up implementing MBS/automining regardless of what we say, since it is definitely in THEIR best interests to do so (financially, and to increase a loyal fanbase by attracting new players). They are not making the game JUST for the hardcore crowd (probably <5% of the market), because the majority will always come first. They will take our opinions into account, but this is one area where I think there is no reason whatsoever for them to compromise.
OrderlyChaos
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1115 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-09-10 01:20:36
September 10 2007 01:19 GMT
#151
And this thread was going so well too...

Seriously, Fuu, no side was ever going to win this war. Both are convinced they're right, and both will probably argue until well after SC2 comes out. I liked the first 7 or so pages of this thread, because they offered the best arguments from both sides about the subject. Personally, I think MBS is necessary for the financial success of SC2, which in turn is necessary for the esports/competitive success...

EDIT: Intelligence struck the thread as I was typing this. I apologize for my mostly useless rant/post =/
Aphelion
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States2720 Posts
September 10 2007 01:23 GMT
#152
1.) For the purposes of making SC2, they had better consider War3 a failure.

2.) Its not unexplored territory. All those games with "improved UI" have universally proven to suck. And you don't just add changes for the sake of changes.

3.) The veterans' points hold much more weight because they actually play BW at a high level and are not just pulling shit from their asses, which anyone can do. And no, I am not a veteran.

4.) There are differences between those and start off noob and those who are eternal noobs because of their mentality. If theirs is a supcom fan's mentality favoring "automated UI" so they can "execute strategy instead of mass clicking", they will be eternal noobs.
But Garimto was always more than just a Protoss...
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-09-10 01:26:32
September 10 2007 01:26 GMT
#153
On September 10 2007 10:19 orangedude wrote:
1) You make it seem like War3 is a failure, when it's actually bigger outside of Korea than SC (especially in China). Some people prefer micro over macro and those people play War3. Others prefer macro over micro and play SC. Both are excellent games.


Warcraft 3 and Starcraft were both successes in their own rights. They're different. And you're saying you want to close the gap that made them different? What the fuck? Further UI improvements and focus on micro should go into Warcraft 4. Leave the macro in Starcraft 2.
posting on liquid sites in current year
akast
Profile Joined September 2007
Australia11 Posts
September 10 2007 01:26 GMT
#154
^^

You favour mass clicking over strategy :S.
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
September 10 2007 01:27 GMT
#155
On September 10 2007 10:26 akast wrote:
^^

You favour mass clicking over strategy :S.


Get the fuck out.
posting on liquid sites in current year
akast
Profile Joined September 2007
Australia11 Posts
September 10 2007 01:29 GMT
#156
On September 10 2007 10:27 SpiritoftheTuna wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 10 2007 10:26 akast wrote:
^^

You favour mass clicking over strategy :S.


Get the fuck out.


Sorry wasn't referring to you. Referring to the poster above you.
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
September 10 2007 01:31 GMT
#157
On September 10 2007 10:29 akast wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 10 2007 10:27 SpiritoftheTuna wrote:
On September 10 2007 10:26 akast wrote:
^^

You favour mass clicking over strategy :S.


Get the fuck out.


Sorry wasn't referring to you. Referring to the poster above you.


Oh, I'm sorry. Let me rephrase.

You missed his point, get the fuck out.
posting on liquid sites in current year
akast
Profile Joined September 2007
Australia11 Posts
September 10 2007 01:35 GMT
#158
Well the let me rephrase my question.

Whats wrong in favouring strategy over mass clicking?

Am I wrong or is SC supposed to be about different and unique strategies?

Leave the micro in battles, not in base management.
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-09-10 01:39:17
September 10 2007 01:37 GMT
#159
On September 10 2007 10:35 akast wrote:
Well the let me rephrase my question.

Whats wrong in favouring strategy over mass clicking?

Am I wrong or is SC supposed to be about different and unique strategies?

Leave the micro in battles, not in base management.


It takes out the option. In BW, mass clicking isn't just a necesary part of the game that you have to do in every situation, every game, it's an option to spend your limited time and handspeed. Should you continue to micro your four marines that are behind a zerg's mineral line and neglect keeping your barracks pumping for a few seconds, or are you lacking in base defense so you have to build out of raxes? Is your economy strong enough that you can let your goons melt and dent that tank line a little and rebuild, or is that a hanbang force that's game deciding that you HAVE to micro? MBS doesn't simply remove a tedious aspect of BW, it also removes the choice involved in where to spend your limited amount of clicks.
posting on liquid sites in current year
OrderlyChaos
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1115 Posts
September 10 2007 01:40 GMT
#160
The focus on micro in war3 wasn't soley because macro was easier. Yes, I'll concede that easier macro was a large part of what forced the focus on micro, but other factors were involved. Expensive units with lots of HP was another large factor. Expensive units meant that losing one or two could change the whole course of the battle. Lots of HP meant microing the same 12 units back and forth to see who could gain the unit advantage. It's why we hear them speak about food count a lot more in W3 than SC...

SC is still going to be a fast paced game where the focus is who can micro low hp relatively cheap units while producing more units at the same time to keep up the advantage. This is where the old schoolers want SC to be the same. They want the "produce more units at the same time" to be the major focus of the game. I guess I'd like it to be this way too, but I see the potential differences that can be implemented with MBS (look through the MBS solutions thread, there are plenty of good, seemingly reasonable compromises) that doesn't dictate that the macro system must be the exact same as in SC1.

The new people... or the "trash" as some people seem to refer to them, seem to favor the other extreme, i.e. the mass building with one click. I find as I read more discussions about this that I disagree with this philosophy. It really does take focus away from macro, and I'm not completely buying the more-micro argument anymore.

On the other hand, I do think there can possibly be more macro actions (don't ask me what... I'm not creative enough), and I believe MBS can be implemented to satisfy a majority. Heck, if Blizz implements the tab idea or the repetitive pressing key idea, along with the shift-key idea, I'd be happy. As someone pointed out in one of the other threads, MBS should be balanced so that it's accessible to the newbs, but the old way is or can be better.
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